AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-08-23, 19:41   Link #30141
Asuka0NK
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Yes they started after the epitaph was solved as I recall. Also I don't understand why Genji would tell Yasu about the incident and if he did why would he tell her it was Natsuhi because I think that would just add more unneeded hate.
__________________
Asuka0NK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-23, 19:44   Link #30142
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Did the phonecalls in ep 5 start after Battler solved the epitaph? Because that would explain how he knew in the first place, much like how Yasu knows about the cliff dive (Natsuhi should have made some serious inquiries into Genji...)

Also cut Natsuhi some slack, she faked Kinzos murder pretty cleverly.
The first call came before the conference ... I personally interpreted it as "several days" before, but we also get a clock effect moving forwards about 12 hours at the end of the chapter, so maybe it was Oct. 3rd, the day before.

Before any of the relatives showed up, anyways. Of note, It's Genji who informs that "it's a young man" when he transfers the call, and Natsuhi hears it similarly, though she feels there's room to doubt that going by just the voice. Also of note, Lambda refuses to repeat that that phone call actually happened. The only call we can be very sure about is the one where we get to hear a kidnapped Krauss, since we know he died shortly after that call.

Also, she didn't fake his death, she always insists he's alive until they find his body. Weekend at Kinzo's yeah!
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-23, 19:56   Link #30143
Asuka0NK
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
So we can sorta assume that only one of the phone calls actually happened and maybe that was the reason Yasu was potrayed as a male also one of the reasons I assume Yasu was masculine because this was the first and only game with a game master who didn't know the truth so most likely Lambdadelta just did it based on her interpretations.
__________________
Asuka0NK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-23, 20:03   Link #30144
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
The only call we can be very sure about is the one where we get to hear a kidnapped Krauss, since we know he died shortly after that call.
We can be sure about the second one too: When Genji finished transferring the call, he immediately returned to the waiting room.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-23, 20:13   Link #30145
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
So we can sorta assume that only one of the phone calls actually happened and maybe that was the reason Yasu was potrayed as a male also one of the reasons I assume Yasu was masculine because this was the first and only game with a game master who didn't know the truth so most likely Lambdadelta just did it based on her interpretations.
Not true - Lambda definitely knows the truth. She knows both the truth of EP5 (since she personally made it), AND the truth of EP1-4, since she was Beato's sponsor and could see the gameboards from every angle. Lambda was an ... interesting GM. You could tell she was more interested in enjoying herself than actually winning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
We can be sure about the second one too: When Genji finished transferring the call, he immediately returned to the waiting room.
Whoops yeah, that one as well.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-23, 22:30   Link #30146
RandomAvatarFan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Oops, didn't read.

Quote:
We can be sure about Krauss died immediately after that call.
We've discussed about the reliability of reds like these before though. I don't know, Krauss' situation in EP5 is the weirdest out of all of them.
__________________

Without love this picture cannot be seen.

Last edited by RandomAvatarFan; 2012-08-23 at 22:52.
RandomAvatarFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-23, 22:39   Link #30147
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
I believe he said it was more than just 34 though

Quote:
she always insists he's alive until they find his body
I realised I had written that wrong as soon as I left the computer. Of course I meant faked his life haha
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-24, 03:48   Link #30148
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Also I remember Ryukishi saying Sayo and Yoshia had secret meanings besides the whole number thing. Has anyone figured out what these are yet?
I don't know about Sayo, but Yoshiya (which could be read as "Joshua") has been thought of as a possible reference to Jesus. And of course "Shannon" and "Kanon" are also considered "blessed" names.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-24, 04:21   Link #30149
battle22
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 18
Send a message via Skype™ to battle22
I'm still gonna stick with 'Natsuhi didn't knew the gender and because Child calls himself her son, Natsuhi also believed it was Male'. I think Battler is the caller and the motive is to make her admit kinzos death , just as every other adults. Erikas motive is the same as well and thats why she is right about everything because she is reading the script which adults wrote, there was never any murder in Ep5 so 'Detective' is not needed therefore this is why Erika can see both SHannon and Kanon in the same room , because she is also one of the adults group. I believe this is the truth of ep5. I mean why do Adults love the hell out of her in ep5 and hate her in Ep6(when she does not have a script from them, heh)
battle22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-24, 07:23   Link #30150
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Yeah Natsuhi hated the child because it was just an insult to her. She just wanted to be useful yet she was unable to have a child and saw it has an insult to her pride.
Actually on that have people noticed that the 7 adults each represent the 7 sins
Krauss = Sloth
Natsuhi = Pride
Eva = Greed
Hideyoshi = Gluttony
Rudolf = Lust
Kyrie = Envy
Rosa = Wrath
This was one of the things that have been discussed a lot in the past and more or less that's how I've seen it at the beginning as the most sensible pairing between sins and the adults. However if you go by the actual parings of the demons and the adults that recurrently happen in the story and other hints left by Ryuukishi including TIPS, the list becomes a little different:

Krauss = Pride
Natsuhi = Wrath
Eva = Greed
Hideyoshi = Gluttony
Rudolf = Sloth
Kyrie = Envy
Rosa = Lust


I guess this proves that in the end you can see it in multiple ways. The problem is that each person commits several sins, and the opinion about what's the most propinent sin of each person or who better represents a certain sin may vary.
Also the concept of sloth is a bit ambiguous and I think Ryuukishi interpreted it in his own particular way. Rudolf has been described as a workaholic, so one would tend to think he's definitely not a sloth, but his ties with Belphegor in the stories and TIPS are as much as strong as the ties between Kyrie and Leviathan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I presume you mean another real person and not a magical homonculus created by Featherine and made to believe he's living with a woman named Ikuko and "recovering" memories of an incident that never happened involving people who never existed in a place that never was. Because that was totally my idea.

But it's certainly worth asking: How does he know he's Battler, exactly? How does he know there was a Battler? I realize that from a narrative standpoint most people would say there was one simply because otherwise who were we talking about to begin with. That's probably the truth. But looking at it strictly from his perspective, can he even know that? Probably not. After all, Touya could doubt every one of his "memories" as being something that was planted there based on what he thinks he knows of "Ushiromiya Battler." There's no way to distinguish between "memories returning" and "falsely remembering based on later information," ultimately.

He really can't ever be sure of who he was, perhaps absent some physical evidence (such as old photographs) that we aren't sure he's ever actually seen. It's not like Ange would be able to physically recognize him with certainty years and years later.
The idea that Tohya might not be the real Battler is an interesting theory to entertain oneself, but it isn't much supported by the narration.
I guess that it works better if you also think that Ikuko is Yasu, because else you'd need to explain how come Itoikukuroreigonamu (or however it's spelled) could know so many things about the Mansion and the family, which is heavily implied to be something that an outsider couldn't know.
Well I guess you could always theorize that Ikuko retraced all the many fukuin servants that worked there and obtained all those info, but it's a bit a far fetched.

You'd also need to imagine that Tohya was chosen for looking like the late Battler, because Ange recognizes him. You can explain that she overlooked the differences because of the age, and maybe wishful thinking, but there should be a limit to that. He can't be that different.

The hardest part to explain is how he was made to "remember" all those things. For example at the very end of EP8 he recognizes that the hall of the orphanage looks exactly like the one in the Rokkenjima Mansion before anyone says anything. You need to pull some kind of bogus hypnotsim hocus pocus, which is yet another overused plot device like amnesia.

From his perspective. The fact that he recognizes that hall should be an almost certain proof to himself, if he ever had a doubt.
To question even that, would mean descending into pure paranoia.
__________________


Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2012-08-24 at 07:43.
Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-24, 07:43   Link #30151
tempteste
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Quote:
I'm still gonna stick with 'Natsuhi didn't knew the gender and because Child calls himself her son, Natsuhi also believed it was Male'.
I said already that you can't anymore. Unless you think this is a coincidence:
Spoiler for -:

Last edited by tempteste; 2012-08-24 at 08:58.
tempteste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-24, 07:54   Link #30152
battle22
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 18
Send a message via Skype™ to battle22
............So? She assumed it was male because of voice, I can still say this. The child does not deny it because it is not important to him/her what gender she thinks he is.
Same way as Lambda accepting erikas truth as 'THE TRUTH'
__________________
A not-so-average Umineko gameboard
battle22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-24, 08:02   Link #30153
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Lion claiming to be Jessica's brother is very fishy to me. The visual novel systematically avoided any word that could give away Lion's gender. There is a clear will from the author to never mention it.

If the manga says that, I tend to see it more as a slip up, or an arbitrary decision from the manga author, which therefore I refuse to consider canon.
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-24, 08:05   Link #30154
battle22
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 18
Send a message via Skype™ to battle22
I agree with Jan-po, Alto we are talking about EP5 manga here.Natsuhi thinks he is male because she hears male from the phone, she had doubts first but after the child calls himself her son , she also belives it is male. No problem with this right? And Please provide me with raw of that pages, English translations prove nothing to me
__________________
A not-so-average Umineko gameboard
battle22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-24, 08:24   Link #30155
tempteste
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Quote:
And Please provide me with raw of that pages, English translations prove nothing to me
Here:
Spoiler for -:

Quote:
Alto we are talking about EP5 manga here. Natsuhi thinks he is male because she hears male from the phone, she had doubts first but after the child calls himself her son , she also belives it is male. No problem with this right?
He doesn't call himself her son in manga.
Quote:
If the manga says that, I tend to see it more as a slip up, or an arbitrary decision from the manga author, which therefore I refuse to consider canon.
It was in the novel too.
Spoiler for -:

Last edited by tempteste; 2012-08-24 at 08:46.
tempteste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-24, 09:02   Link #30156
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Ah it's that. Well there's not doubt that the "man from 19 years before" introduces himself as a male.

But if I understand correctly the discussion here is whether if Natsuhi thought the child was male or female right?
If we use common sense it really sounds strange that she never asked, even if she didn't want to have anything to do with that baby. But let's assume it's possible for the sake of the discussion.

If she didn't know the baby's gender, whether the one claiming to be "it" declared to be female or male would be irrelevant. Natsuhi would simply think "so it was a boy" or "so it was a girl" and adapt to it.
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-24, 09:17   Link #30157
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well I guess you could always theorize that Ikuko retraced all the many fukuin servants that worked there and obtained all those info, but it's a bit a far fetched.
Well, there's also the prospect that Eva's diary was really detailed and Ikuko did personally read it, or that Ikuko knew Eva.

Plus I don't think it's really far-fetched at all to track down and interview the other Fukuin servants. Hell, that's the first thing just about anybody seriously investigating the incident or message bottle stories would've done, although we hear absolutely nothing about it that I recall.
Quote:
You'd also need to imagine that Tohya was chosen for looking like the late Battler, because Ange recognizes him. You can explain that she overlooked the differences because of the age, and maybe wishful thinking, but there should be a limit to that. He can't be that different.
It's not that hard to look "kind of like" someone. That's especially true of someone you haven't seen in decades since said person was 18. Battler probably wouldn't look much like he did to begin with, so it'd be hard to say Ange can reliably tell "someone who is definitely her brother" from "someone who she imagines a member of her family she hasn't seen in years might look like decades down the road." Plus, it's always possible Ange is just seeing what she wants to see and Ikuko could've dragged in a guy from Sweden and she wouldn't have cared.

Either way, I doubt it's hard to find somebody who resembles Battler. Time will obfuscate the details. I mean, look at 30-year-old Kinzo in ep7 versus his present-day appearance. Would you think of them as the same person? I mean, they might be, but there have been some major changes in appearance.
Quote:
The hardest part to explain is how he was made to "remember" all those things. For example at the very end of EP8 he recognizes that the hall of the orphanage looks exactly like the one in the Rokkenjima Mansion before anyone says anything. You need to pull some kind of bogus hypnotsim hocus pocus, which is yet another overused plot device like amnesia.

From his perspective. The fact that he recognizes that hall should be an almost certain proof to himself, if he ever had a doubt.
To question even that, would mean descending into pure paranoia.
Nah, not even remotely. It's very easy to construct false recognition of places. Ever had deja vu? Felt like you were familiar with a place you'd never been to before? Wandered into a building that you think maybe you saw in a movie scene one time, but you're not sure? Met a person you could swear you've seen before, but he can't recall ever being in any of the situations you describe where you would've met him? Memories are easy enough to fake, and people do it to themselves naturally all the time. No hypnosis of any kind would be necessary. All you need is a long period of time going over the details, and conveniently, a long period of time going over the details is exactly the situation he finds himself in.

So is it implausible to think he could be "primed" to believe he's familiar with the layout of the mansion? If the stories were descriptive enough, if the stories he wrote were descriptive enough, if he'd seen photographs, heard descriptions, been fed whatever details from eyewitnesses Ikuko could dredge up, is it really that hard to at least imagine he could think he's remembering something that he actually isn't? Hell, it could be an educated guess (it's an unusual enough room that you'd think it's something meaningful) that self-confirmation "assures" him about.

About the only way he could "prove" he's Battler is if he eventually recalls something that only Battler and Ange could possibly know and which Ange has never told anyone else (as otherwise he could, in theory, have been primed with that info). If the two of them are able to confirm that detail, then either he's Battler or an incredibly lucky guesser. Or, I suppose, meeting a fake Ange who is instructed to confirm anything he says. He can never really be sure... well, I guess he could lie and see if "Ange" corrects him appropriately.

You're right that this sounds paranoid, but if you're a shut-in amnesiac being presented fantastical and contradictory murder stories and told you were one of the guys in the story, you might have reason to become paranoid if you start "remembering" being that guy. Is what you're being told true, or are you being driven insane by a crazy woman who can't separate fiction from reality? You're dependent on her physically, emotionally, financially... you're kind of stuck with her. If you have significant gaps in your memory, it's understandable why you might not be sure of her motives. Especially when your current self-identity is constructed solely from what memories you do have. Who is this woman and who is the man she's trying to make you become?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-24, 09:23   Link #30158
tempteste
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Quote:
If she didn't know the baby's gender, whether the one claiming to be "it" declared to be female or male would be irrelevant. Natsuhi would simply think "so it was a boy" or "so it was a girl" and adapt to it.
How Yasu/Battler/wathever would know that Nasuhi has no idea of which gender child was? They could present themselves as a 'child' and let Natsuhi to decide it herself. But it's a huge risk to state from the first call 'I'm your son'.
Quote:
If she didn't know the baby's gender, whether the one claiming to be "it" declared to be female or male would be irrelevant. Natsuhi would simply think "so it was a boy" or "so it was a girl" and adapt to it.
In manga it's 'I'm your child, mom' and Natsuhi still assumes that it's definitely male for some reason. She doesn't even doubt anything.
tempteste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-24, 09:32   Link #30159
Asuka0NK
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Maybe Yasu just chose to show herself as a male just for the fact of how Natsuhi seems to be more intimidated by men I mean if you call someone threatening them and sound like a cute little girl you may not be seen as menacing
__________________
Asuka0NK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-24, 09:40   Link #30160
battle22
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 18
Send a message via Skype™ to battle22
"How Yasu/Battler/wathever would know that Nasuhi has no idea of which gender child was? They could present themselves as a 'child' and let Natsuhi to decide it herself. But it's a huge risk to state from the first call 'I'm your son'. "
It is a risk, but we can still believe it, The caller is defenetly male, and What about this? Natsuhi said in the narration that she tried to forgot everything , Maybe gender of that child meant nothing for her and just forgot, and when the child says his male Natsuhi would be like 'Oh so it was male, trololol' . As for the raws, I'm looking at them right now , I'll post the translatons

EDIT
1) ore mo kaasan no kodomo dakara ne
2) otoko desu ka
3) 10 nen mae o kataru otoko wa... // kitto ano otoko mo...
4) ....hitotsu ue no ani desu, tte na

Okay you are right on this , I'll give you that XDD
__________________
A not-so-average Umineko gameboard
battle22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.