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Old 2012-08-24, 09:56   Link #30161
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Nah, not even remotely. It's very easy to construct false recognition of places. Ever had deja vu? Felt like you were familiar with a place you'd never been to before? Wandered into a building that you think maybe you saw in a movie scene one time, but you're not sure? Met a person you could swear you've seen before, but he can't recall ever being in any of the situations you describe where you would've met him? Memories are easy enough to fake, and people do it to themselves naturally all the time. No hypnosis of any kind would be necessary. All you need is a long period of time going over the details, and conveniently, a long period of time going over the details is exactly the situation he finds himself in.

So is it implausible to think he could be "primed" to believe he's familiar with the layout of the mansion? If the stories were descriptive enough, if the stories he wrote were descriptive enough, if he'd seen photographs, heard descriptions, been fed whatever details from eyewitnesses Ikuko could dredge up, is it really that hard to at least imagine he could think he's remembering something that he actually isn't? Hell, it could be an educated guess (it's an unusual enough room that you'd think it's something meaningful) that self-confirmation "assures" him about.
Eh, sorry if I sound a bit rude by a call that bullshit. Just because dejà-vu are something everyone has experienced it doesn't mean that you can fabricate them into another person.

And besides Battler isn't having a dejà-vu, he remembers that he or rather "his past self" defintely has been in a similar place before. That's not how dejà-vu work.

I have no experience whatsoever of externally fabricated memories nor personally nor by what I've heard by others and not even by rumors, if I exclude fictional stories.

The situation you describe, like being exposed to photographs or to stories do not really work, unless he forgets that he has been exposed to them, therefore only leaving the option "I must have experienced this firsthand".

Because if he remembers that he's been exposed to them (and he should unless you pull a hypnosis) then from his perspective there is no reason to think those are his real memories rather than something he's been told.

Unless of course he is crazy, demented, mentally unstable or whatever to begin with. In which case his perspective hardly matters. He could as well believe he's Napoleon without any reason.

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Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
How Yasu/Battler/wathever would know that Nasuhi has no idea of which gender child was? They could present themselves as a 'child' and let Natsuhi to decide it herself. But it's a huge risk to state from the first call 'I'm your son'.
Good point. Maybe Genji told Yasu that Natsuhi never even knew/remember the gender of the baby.

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Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
In manga it's 'I'm your child, mom' and Natsuhi still assumes that it's definitely male for some reason. She doesn't even doubt anything.
That's not "some reason". The voice clearly sounds like that of a young man. Even Genji when questioned says so.
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Old 2012-08-24, 10:08   Link #30162
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"Good point. Maybe Genji told Yasu that Natsuhi never even knew/remember the gender of the baby."
I see , Something like this.
"Before the cliff accident , Natsuhi was forced to adopt you , thats why she never liked you during those three days, she didn't even bother to ask what gender the child was, trully what a horrible person. but nobody would ever think ,that something like that would have happened ,a true irony , same fate as your mother. It indeed was a horrible accident"

And Knox can't slice this theory up , because story did not confirm the gender , in other words It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard. , So a place for Yasu to be Female exists and I'm one of those people who believe this . XD
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Old 2012-08-24, 10:16   Link #30163
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I always would've thought that Natsuhi just forgot about the babies physical form since as you say that if it was only 3 days most likely the servants changed Yasu's diaper thus Natsuhi never would've seen or cared since she said she would always throw it on a servant when Yasu would cry then she pushed them off the cliff so if anything Natsuhi never knew the babies sex in the first place and can't really argue about Yasu saying she is a male because she would have no proof to deny that claim.
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Old 2012-08-24, 10:31   Link #30164
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That's not "some reason". The voice clearly sounds like that of a young man. Even Genji when questioned says so.
She doubted it in the novel. Why would she suddenly change her mind in the manga to 'it sounded like male, so it's definitely male'?

"But it's a bit hard to figure out much about a person just by their voice over the phone...
It sounded like a young man, but it might actually be a middle school-aged boy or an adult man whose voice still hadn't deepened.

No wait, it might be too soon even to be sure that this is a male."

Quote:
Good point. Maybe Genji told Yasu that Natsuhi never even knew/remember the gender of the baby.
And from where he knows that? It's not like he was stalking Natsuhi all the time to be so sure.
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Old 2012-08-24, 10:33   Link #30165
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"And from where he knows that? It's not like he was stalking Natsuhi all the time to be so sure. "
Ok, I Can't counter this one without tweasting it too much. I'll just go with Natsuhi forgot the Gender because she didnt care. It was 19 years after all
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Old 2012-08-24, 10:38   Link #30166
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Eh, sorry if I sound a bit rude by a call that bullshit. Just because dejà-vu are something everyone has experienced it doesn't mean that you can fabricate them into another person.

And besides Battler isn't having a dejà-vu, he remembers that he or rather "his past self" defintely has been in a similar place before. That's not how dejà-vu work.
There's literally no difference between thinking you remember you've been somewhere before and actually remembering you've been somewhere before. Your brain can't tell the difference. The degree of certainty may be different between a particular memory and a passing case of deja vu, but just as there are cases of unusually strong deja vu (meaning your "memory" is more vivid than it actually should be), there are cases of weak recollection of genuine memory (which would make true experience with a place actually feel more like a vague sense of familiarity).

The brain has problems like this all the time. The brain of someone with Magic Fictional Amnesia is probably all kinds of messed up in terms of perception, memory, and vague sensation. If you are that person, it would be impossible to be sure that you're actually remembering a thing you've seen since you aren't sure if the act of seeing it was even a thing that really happened. Especially if the last time you could have physically seen that thing (if you ever did) was decades and decades in the past, such that it would be subject to the general ravages of time on memories.

I mean look at it the other way: Assume Battler didn't lose his memory, but also didn't go to the mansion for 50 years and one day walks into a room that appears to look just like the entrance hall. Do you think he's likely to think it's an exact replica of it? Possibly, possibly not. Let's say he remembers the house decently well and declares that this room is an exact copy. Do you think he'd notice if, say, a door were slightly off, or even if one were entirely absent that should have been there in an exact copy?

Psychology says he is almost certain to not notice certain details being wrong, because his vague memories will be reinforced with self-assurance that he's looking at the right thing and his memories will actually update themselves accordingly. In fact, if you don't tell him that you took a door out of the hallway on purpose, he'll likely start "remembering" in the future that there wasn't a door there. And this is a person who doesn't have any trauma-induced memory loss.
Quote:
The situation you describe, like being exposed to photographs or to stories do not really work, unless he forgets that he has been exposed to them, therefore only leaving the option "I must have experienced this firsthand".

Because if he remembers that he's been exposed to them (and he should unless you pull a hypnosis) then from his perspective there is no reason to think those are his real memories rather than something he's been told.
Actually, a great many of your own childhood memories are probably wrong, fake, or distorted by time. It's just something that happens. It's also pretty well-documented that you can convince a person that an event has happened to them in the past that didn't with just a little bit of experimental setup and priming questions.

Vivid memories are harder, but it's certainly possible over a long period of time. Some people have conjured vivid memories of things like alien abductions, and while those memories - which are factually false - were not initially particularly strong, long-term belief that those memories were true leads people to eventually produce extremely strong and consistent stories about the "events" which at least sound plausible to a person open to the possibility that such events could happen. Even when they provably didn't, such as physical evidence that a person was not at the location they said they were when they were "abducted." If you can't prove the events didn't happen (their whereabouts that night can't be proven), it gets even harder to convince someone that what their memory tells them so clearly occurred actually didn't. Even though we know that it in fact didn't.

And again, there is no discernible difference whatsoever between forgetting you saw a picture of something and remembering that you saw the picture later and accidentally leading yourself to believe you saw a picture in the past and just forgot about it because circumstances led you to believe that's where your familiarity derives. Psychologically, you cannot tell that was the case off your memory alone. And the most vivid memories are often the ones you can't trust, except when you can.
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Old 2012-08-25, 07:23   Link #30167
Jan-Poo
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Excuse me Renall but where do you get your facts from?

Just saying that thinking you remember you've been somewhere before and actually remembering you've been somewhere before is the same thing is a blatant falsity.

From wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deja_vu
Déjà vu, from French, literally "already seen", is the phenomenon of having the strong sensation that an event or experience currently being experienced has been experienced in the past.

E deja vu is just that, a sensation. You don't actually remember a damn thing, in fact that's the very problem of deja-vu lies on the discrepancy with your feeling of remembering while not actually finding any memory to confirm it.

All the experiences of deja-vu I've experienced were like that. Never once it happened to me to actually remember something that I thought I wasn't supposed to remember.

If Tohya says "I remember I was here" then that's simply not a deja-vu. It can't be, by defintion.


All the rest that you said just sounds like bogus psychology from someone that doesn't quite understand how the brain works.


At any rate the main problem here is that you're using the fact of the unreliability of human memory (which you are greatly exaggerating) as a way to state that memory can be easily artificially manipulated against the will of the subject with the precision and to the extent of Tohya's case. You can't really use X as a way to prove Y here. There's no logical relation.
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Old 2012-08-25, 12:31   Link #30168
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
All the rest that you said just sounds like bogus psychology from someone that doesn't quite understand how the brain works.
No. I've seen this first hand on a daily basis. I know someone who's suffered permanent brain damage from a stroke. I could easily "remind" him that he experienced an earthquake yesterday, and then I could ask him about it in a few minutes and he'll provide any other details I might ask for about the fictional event. This kind of thing happened over and over again.

It works with normal people too, although it requires more subtlety. But, hey, if your victim has amnesia (no identity to begin with), is completely dependent upon you and cut off from the rest of the world for several decades, then you may as well consider his identity to be entirely in your control.

http://old.post-gazette.com/healthsc...oods0217p5.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome

http://memoryillusions.wordpress.com...es-part-three/
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Old 2012-08-26, 07:55   Link #30169
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Your "proof" are all highly controversial stuff.

Just by reading the article about the False memory syndrome in its entirety you get the pciture of it.

It turns out that this "syndrome" is mostly advocated by attorneys trying to defend their clients against witnesses. No doubt they have quite a personal interest in believing in this theory and in inflating its actual relevance. Especially in a judicial system where you can only convict a criminal beyond any reasonable doubt.

Note that this is mainly used in sexual abuse cases in childhood (as the wiki article reports), that is against witnesses whose mind is weak and whose memories are less reliable.

The literature and scientific studies debunking the alleged frequency of the false memory syndrome is extremely vast:

Spoiler for articles:



Then let's just say that there are only a selected number of individuals who can actually be manipulated effectively.

In which case I guess you can still win the argument by claiming that Tohya is one of those individuals, which also happens to be similar enough to Battler.

But since this theory already requires to dismiss as lies many of the flashback scenes we have seen among Ikuko and Tohya, why would this theory be more plausible than one that simply claims that the Tohya that Ange saw was just a hired actor?
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Old 2012-08-26, 09:41   Link #30170
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Your "proof" are all highly controversial stuff.
Not my word. At best I'd call it "evidence". You can't ever prove this kind of shit one way or the other anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Note that this is mainly used in sexual abuse cases in childhood (as the wiki article reports), that is against witnesses whose mind is weak and whose memories are less reliable.

The literature and scientific studies debunking the alleged frequency of the false memory syndrome is extremely vast:
tl;dr. I know a certain level of realism is expected, but jeez, since when did fiction have to follow the most rigorous of scientific critique? It's not like there's been a great deal of study done on Touya's particular situation. I was just introducing some general scientific plausibility to the idea that memories could be planted by other people.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Then let's just say that there are only a selected number of individuals who can actually be manipulated effectively.

In which case I guess you can still win the argument by claiming that Tohya is one of those individuals, which also happens to be similar enough to Battler.

But since this theory already requires to dismiss as lies many of the flashback scenes we have seen among Ikuko and Tohya,
I'm not saying that he never had amnesia, you know. I'm suggesting that Ikuko found an amnesiac stranger (Touya) by chance and opportunistically, or even inadvertently, molded him into Battler.

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why would this theory be more plausible than one that simply claims that the Tohya that Ange saw was just a hired actor?
Because there's no motive for Ikuko to do that.
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Old 2012-08-26, 10:31   Link #30171
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I'm not saying that he never had amnesia, you know. I'm suggesting that Ikuko found an amnesiac stranger (Touya) by chance and opportunistically, or even inadvertently, molded him into Battler.
Talk about fortuitous coincidences. She just happened to come across and amnesiac brain damaged individual who looked similar enough to Battler?

But even accepting that, there's a lot more to question. For example what about Battler claiming he remembered he was 18 years old? Just another coincidence?

Then what about the fact that Tohya was a speed reader?
What about the fact that Tohya was knowledgeable about mystery novels?

What about the fact he turned out to have great ideas for writing mystery novels?

Lastly are the sudden attacks of memory recover experienced by Tohya really compatible with the theory of implanted memories?
Is it normal that he doesn't consider those memories as his own? Don't all the research data anout implanted memories that you mentioned suggest the opposite?


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I know a certain level of realism is expected, but jeez, since when did fiction have to follow the most rigorous of scientific critique?
The discussion shifted to facts about reality, Renall affirmations about memory being easily manipulable in every human and commonly happening, kinda rubbed me the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Because there's no motive for Ikuko to do that.
Wait a second. She has a motive to bring a guy that she brainwashed in believing he is Battler in front of Ange, but not to simply hire a man to pose as him?

Explain.
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Old 2012-08-26, 12:08   Link #30172
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I apologize for placing so many answer under the spoiler tag but otherwise this message would have been too long (*sighs* why when I'm away everyone becomes so talktive? ;_; )

Spoiler for Replies to Kealym:


Spoiler for Replies to Asuka0NK:


Spoiler for Replies to Wanderer:


Spoiler for Replies to GuestSpeaker:

Spoiler for Replies to tempteste:


Quote:
Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
Lets say this, Battler claims he is the son of natsuhi , Natsuhi did not knew the gender of the child and since Battler claims he is a son, she starts to believe it as well. It was not important to her and this is a theory which my friend told me, hear me out. We know that Yasu is a child of incest right? What if she was born as a 'freak' and people were unable to determine if it was male or female and MAYBE this is the reason Natsuhi Hated that child so much
We've a problem. Who ever told Battler all this story about the kid fallen from a cliff?
Also it was explained more than once that Natsuhi's disgust for the child was due to her inability to have one on her own and the way Kizno presented that kid to her.

Spoiler for Replies to Jan-Poo:
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Old 2012-08-26, 13:02   Link #30173
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"We've a problem. Who ever told Battler all this story about the kid fallen from a cliff?
Also it was explained more than once that Natsuhi's disgust for the child was due to her inability to have one on her own and the way Kizno presented that kid to her."

Yeah It was stated in the novel but what if there was anathor reason? Sure Natsuhi hates the child but killing it? She really has to have damn good reason for that, not to mention the poor servant . As for Battler knowing the cliff fall ...How about this, We know that Battler is part of the group of 'Make Natsuhi Admit Kinzos death' , What if the adults told him to lie to Natsuhi ,He made up a story , which ironicly turns half real , Because Natsuhi really did something like that, DId the child ever mention about the cliff fall? , He didnt , he Just said 'What you did 19 years ago , you Murderer' , When Natsuhi Conffesed this , Battlers reactions are suspicious and he is feeling guilty, and he knows she is not the culprit because He knows that no murder never really happened. Unfortenetly Yasu turned the bomb on and poof. Well this theory is very very streched and Knox can cut it down really easly but... Give me some break lol . XDD
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Old 2012-08-26, 14:15   Link #30174
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This would have made harder to have a male baby grow up to remember Beatrice as likely Natsuhi and Krauss wouldn't let him dress as Beatrice or as a girl if he were to be male.
I think it's more about traits, face features and stuff which child could inherit from Beatrice then just a dress.
Quote:
I seem to remember someone said that was a mistranslation and that actually the novel never made clear if the calelr was male or female.
Really? Too bad I didn't bother to check this out too.
Quote:
All in all to say that the 'Shannon' solution was more dangerous for Yasu that letting a male child be raised by the Ushiromiya.
Rising Yasu as male is a higher risk anyway. If you present Natsuhi a very young servant who was somehow gravely injured when he was a baby, even with lowered age, Natsuhi would immediately suspect something. Kinzo would notice this sooner too I guess.
And if Genji seriosly wanted to hide Yasu from Kinzo he would give Yasu to another family, not return back on Rokkenjima. Besides:
Spoiler for -:

Quote:
Well, considering Ryukishi apparently didn't want us to be sure about the child's gender I tend to think there was no proof of which it was otherwise Will would have figured it out. Instead he felt the need to ask Lion wich gender he was because he didn't think EP 5 was conclusive.
I believe Will had an idea of Lion's sex and Yasu's gender issues by the middle of Requiem, but was left with no confirmation.

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Yeah It was stated in the novel but what if there was anathor reason?
If there was another reason Ryukishi would write it or leave a hint.
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Old 2012-08-26, 14:17   Link #30175
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
"We've a problem. Who ever told Battler all this story about the kid fallen from a cliff?
Also it was explained more than once that Natsuhi's disgust for the child was due to her inability to have one on her own and the way Kizno presented that kid to her."

Yeah It was stated in the novel but what if there was anathor reason? Sure Natsuhi hates the child but killing it? She really has to have damn good reason for that, not to mention the poor servant . As for Battler knowing the cliff fall ...How about this, We know that Battler is part of the group of 'Make Natsuhi Admit Kinzos death' , What if the adults told him to lie to Natsuhi ,He made up a story , which ironicly turns half real , Because Natsuhi really did something like that, DId the child ever mention about the cliff fall? , He didnt , he Just said 'What you did 19 years ago , you Murderer' , When Natsuhi Conffesed this , Battlers reactions are suspicious and he is feeling guilty, and he knows she is not the culprit because He knows that no murder never really happened. Unfortenetly Yasu turned the bomb on and poof. Well this theory is very very streched and Knox can cut it down really easly but... Give me some break lol . XDD
I think the whole killing was done following an impulse and it wasn't planned.
She was exhasperated by the situation and the crying of the child whom she hated and she likely was very stressed and lost her head. At least so she explained it.

Honestly the problem is that I don't think someone would come up with such a story just randomly. He specifically said he was her child from 19 years ago and that she killed him (I'm using male pronouns just because the caller is called the 'man from 19 years ago'). This is a bit too specific for someone who's making up a story.
If the phone call had been done to an innocent person she could have easily replied she never had a kid nor was involvedin the dead of one 19 years ago and that he dialled the wrong number or contacted the wrong person.
Or would assume in a joke. Plus if she were to get scared thinking she was dealing with a madman she would contact the police or tell someone.
After all by the time the first call is made it was still possible to phone out of the island and Battler & Co couldn't be sure the storm would have cut comunications.

If Battler wanted to scare her he would have used the classic 'I know what you did and I'm here to take revenge' which can apply to everything, he wouldn't have been so specific.
A generic accusation is hard to counter as everyone surely did something that might have angered/saddened someone else. A specific accusation need to refer to facts that can be real or it'll be easily dismissed as a prank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
I think it's more about traits, face features and stuff which child could inherit from Beatrice then just a dress.
I've mentioned the dress because it's the most visible thing but a lot of human bhaviours are influenced by the way you're raised and in many cases you're raised differently according to the fact you're male or female. In Japan you're even supposed to speak differently. Sure, Yasu would continue to have something in common with Beato as he would still be her son but the common points would lower instead than increase.
Facial feathures and ereditary common traits won't change regardless from the fact he's raised as Krauss' son or as Shannon, the maid.

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Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
Rising Yasu as male is a higher risk anyway. If you present Natsuhi a very young servant who was somehow gravely injured when he was a baby, even with lowered age, Natsuhi would immediately suspect something. Kinzo would notice this sooner too I guess.
They were never said Shannon was severely injured so I don't really see why they should say it should they present Shannon as Kanon.
Also Natsuhi isn't suspicious of Kanon.


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Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
And if Genji seriosly wanted to hide Yasu from Kinzo he would give Yasu to another family, not return back on Rokkenjima. Besides:
Spoiler for -:
Genji's plan is pretty weak.
By the same reasoning is possible to say that if Kinzo really only lusted after Beatrice he would recognize her 'new reincarnation' and lust after her, a problem that would be uncomplicated by the apparent fact this time they aren't father and daughter.

After all if he would have no problems sleeping with his child, why shold he have problems sleeping with a maid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
I believe Will had an idea of Lion's sex and Yasu's gender issues by the middle of Requiem, but was left with no confirmation.
He undoubtely figured that Yasu had gender issues but there's no hint he figured out Lion or Yasu's sex.
I doubt Ryukishi wanted us to know it so he did his best to never give clear hints about it.

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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
The adults must have known about the child , they just didnt knew if it was murdered by natsuhi, Which Battler lied about. He is perfect for this because Natsuhi does not knows his voice , because he has been absent for 6 years
How? They weren't present, Natsuhi told it only to Krauss and it's unlikely Krauss told to someone else.
Also Battler after all showed up on Rokkenjima and Natsuhi had all the time to compare voices. Either the voice was masked so it didn't matter if it was Battler or Rudolf or Hideyoshi or she could have recognized him as soon as he showed up and spoke to her for a while.
Though his dubber is used in the game, it's likely a red herring.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-08-26 at 14:36.
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Old 2012-08-26, 14:21   Link #30176
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The adults must have known about the child , they just didnt knew if it was murdered by natsuhi, Which Battler lied about. He is perfect for this because Natsuhi does not knows his voice , because he has been absent for 6 years
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Old 2012-08-26, 14:48   Link #30177
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Talk about fortuitous coincidences. She just happened to come across and amnesiac brain damaged individual who looked similar enough to Battler?
Of all the coincidences in Umineko, THIS is the one that bothers you? Are you serious, Jan-Poo? Even the most ridiculous Touya explanation is better than some of the canonical 'coincidences' we got. It's even a theme.

Miracles n' shit.
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Old 2012-08-26, 17:07   Link #30178
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So I finished reading the novels three weeks ago, and I needed go somewhere and talk about it. Then this thread appeared and... yeah.

Now, there's a lot that has already been discussed, so for the sake of not being redundant and because I can't go back and read the monstruous thread since the begining, I'm just gonna take the topic in this last page and start with it.

So I'll pick one of the topics floating in here... Implanted memories. Because that's weird enough.

For what I can get about the thing without going back to read, you're posting a theory about how Tohya is not Ushiromiya Battler. I would take it into consideration, really, if it weren't for the implanted memory argument, because let's face it: it'd go up right there with the whole amnesia thingy in the 'asscovers/bullshit that everybody could live without' list.

BUT, speaking about if its possible or not... yes. To a certain degree. It's possible even with non-brain-damaged people, and I'm telling this from experience: If Miss X doesn't have a complete/perfect recolection of what happened, say... one year ago, Mr. G can suggest 'You did Y' and Miss X can pottentialy believe it. But there's certain criteria that has to be taken in consideration: Miss X must thrust Mr. G to a certain degree, at least enough to not suspect he's lying or he couldn't have known; Y must be in character for Miss X, so she can't detect something weird ("I'd never do that!" she'd say); It has to be possible ("I've never been in Russia to begin with!" she'd say) and finally, Y can't be something unforgettable. ("I'd remember if I married you!" she'd say).

Of course, this is about normal people with normal memory erosion.

Spoiler for EP7 & EP8 spoil... So, is it possible for an amnesiac to get false memories through suggestion?:


Hm. Maybe I wrote too much. It's my first post here, I got carried away...

Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-08-26 at 17:29.
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Old 2012-08-26, 17:15   Link #30179
Asuka0NK
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Join Date: Jun 2012
I know this is off topic but about Tohya's hair color I don't think it caused by that being his real hair color or anything I think his hair just turned white naturally. I mean Tohya is probably 50-60 years old because he would've been 30 in 1998 and the game says decades later so he could be around that age thus why his hair has already whitened. Not to mention stress and the like.
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Old 2012-08-26, 17:19   Link #30180
GoldenLand
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Battler is Kyrie's son, so assuming Kyrie's hair went white early, he might be prone to it too. Although by the time we get to see Tohya his hair could easily be white from age anyway.
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