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Old 2012-08-26, 17:40   Link #30181
Asuka0NK
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Yes thats why I've always seen it as a hint just to show that he did inherit some of Kyrie or he just got white hair naturally. Speaking of hair colors where the hell did Battler and Ange get the Red hair from. I mean it seems to be a trait among the Sumaderas that their hair turns white prematurely since both sisters have white hair but it doesn't really make sense since Rudolf has brown hair and Kinzo has white hair also probably from premature aging. So I'm guessing maybe Kyrie use to have red hair before it turned.
I know it doesn't make sense to dispute Character genetics but still.
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Old 2012-08-26, 18:14   Link #30182
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Yes thats why I've always seen it as a hint just to show that he did inherit some of Kyrie or he just got white hair naturally. Speaking of hair colors where the hell did Battler and Ange get the Red hair from. I mean it seems to be a trait among the Sumaderas that their hair turns white prematurely since both sisters have white hair but it doesn't really make sense since Rudolf has brown hair and Kinzo has white hair also probably from premature aging. So I'm guessing maybe Kyrie use to have red hair before it turned.
I know it doesn't make sense to dispute Character genetics but still.
In Umineko hair colour makes no sense. Likely is merely used for visual purpose. Battler is red, George is blue, Jessica is yellow. They're a Power Trio who's Colour-Coded for our Convenience.

And Kyrie is likely given pale azure hair because often they are used for cold, rational characters (contrasting with red hair that are for passionate characters) subconsciously making more believable for the viewer (used to colour code) how she could plan on murdering people (Asumu or the Ep 7 Teaparty).
It's the hair colour. It's the colour of the culprit.
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Old 2012-08-26, 18:22   Link #30183
Asuka0NK
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Not really. Hair color makes a lot more sense then it did in Higurashi since all the hair colors in Umineko are possibly hair colors unlike Higurashi with their characters who had bright green, blue, and purple hair. Like non of the human characters have unnatural hair they all have possible hair colors.
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Old 2012-08-26, 18:36   Link #30184
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Not really. Hair color makes a lot more sense then it did in Higurashi since all the hair colors in Umineko are possibly hair colors unlike Higurashi with their characters who had bright green, blue, and purple hair. Like non of the human characters have unnatural hair they all have possible hair colors.
Colour coding hair doesn't really mean you've to force hair to be of unnatural colours. And the fact it made no sense was because the hair colour doesn't match with the one of Japanese people not the kids hair colour matches with the one of their parents.
Kinzo is white, his wife is unknown.
We've Rudolf who's dark brown, Rosa's clear brown, Eva's orance/red, Krauss' is defined old gold.
Then we've Battler and Ange who're red, George who's a blue/black and Jessica who's blonde.
Basically the Ushiromiya gene pool contains all the shadow of colours hair can have minus a definite black colour.
I guess that's why Hideyoshi was adopted into family. His hair colour was missing... (just jocking...)

Plus Erika has blue hair and Ikuko purple and they're human. Though yes, this time Ryukishi avoided using green hair for humans.
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Old 2012-08-26, 18:47   Link #30185
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In "reality" in Umineko, the characters probably all have dark hair regardless of how their images are shown in the VNs, except maybe for Bice and Moetrice. But it is more convenient to have some variation. And it does mean that we can try out things like colour theory on them.
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Old 2012-08-26, 19:25   Link #30186
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Oh I'm just talking about it from just the standpoint of Umineko in general. I know in the real world they would probably have black hair because they are asian but I'm thinking of it from a standpoint of their world.
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Old 2012-08-26, 19:33   Link #30187
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Everyone is colored for Battler's convenience. He's incompetent, remember? So he sees people by their hair colors just as Maria sees them by their attitudes. And he differences man from female based on their chests.

My pet theory is that the variation in the Ushiromiya color hair symbolizes a great scale double-cheating from Kinzo's late wife. So, nobody can assure that all those kids are really his. He couldn't even remember when he had them! (One day he woke up with kids and a powerful drinking habit, or something like that).

Because the first wife was jealous of Kinzo having a mistress in the island (That'd be like having your neighbor as mistress, hell), she had a shitload of affairs. And then the siblings were born. Well, not all: Rudolf is the only one born from Kinzo. That's why he and Battler are both dirty perverts. That's why all the siblings except Rudolf have some sob memory of Kinzo disdaining them. That'd explain oh-so-beautifuly Rudolf's messed up sex life. And Kinzo's grandson Battler even has all that incesty lusty vibes -Jessica and 'Beato'-. Not only that, he's the only cousin who resembles the grandfather in some way!

Everyone else is just a failed attempt from the first wife (whose name nobody knows) to secure his husband via baby a la Kyrie.

That would help me to get over the weirdness of all that 'dating/lusting after their uncle' thing that the cousins have. They wouldn't even be related.

But that's just a troll theory, so don't kick me, okay?

Going serious, yes. All those years went straight to Battlers folicles and whited his head. It's like Ange's dying of cancer several decades later, so her big bro probably is ancient too...

EDIT: In some weird way, every cousin resembles his/her parents. Jessica has her mother's hair but lighter, George is chubby and somewhat-black-haired, Maria's dad is unknown, so she doesn't resemble anyone for convenience... Battler is the special cause, with all the Kyrie situation and the mistery of his real mother, but he and Ange are somewhat related through hair. Maybe red is the new white?

Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-08-26 at 19:43.
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Old 2012-08-26, 19:50   Link #30188
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I always just thought Kyrie's family suffers from premature whitening but were born with red hair.
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Old 2012-08-26, 22:31   Link #30189
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"How? They weren't present, Natsuhi told it only to Krauss and it's unlikely Krauss told to someone else.
Also Battler after all showed up on Rokkenjima and Natsuhi had all the time to compare voices. Either the voice was masked so it didn't matter if it was Battler or Rudolf or Hideyoshi or she could have recognized him as soon as he showed up and spoke to her for a while.
Though his dubber is used in the game, it's likely a red herring.
"

Rosa was living with them at tham time, narration said he was away, but Surly the servants knew, Eva or Rosa might have heard somewhere from them.
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Old 2012-08-26, 22:49   Link #30190
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I think they just used Daisuke Ono so they didn't have to hire a new voice actor.
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Old 2012-08-27, 04:50   Link #30191
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Talk about fortuitous coincidences. She just happened to come across and amnesiac brain damaged individual who looked similar enough to Battler?
Yeah well maybe he looked about as close to Battler as Kanon does to Beatrice, since apparently that's close enough.

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But even accepting that, there's a lot more to question. For example what about Battler claiming he remembered he was 18 years old? Just another coincidence?

Then what about the fact that Tohya was a speed reader?
What about the fact that Tohya was knowledgeable about mystery novels?

What about the fact he turned out to have great ideas for writing mystery novels?
These are all arguments that work equally well against (Touya=Battler_&_Ikuko=random) as they do (Touya=random_&_Ikuko=Yasu). I find it ironic that you're using (Ikuko=Yasu_&_Touya=Battler) arguments here.

In any case, it can be explained with a mixture of coincidence and memory implantation.

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Lastly are the sudden attacks of memory recover experienced by Tohya really compatible with the theory of implanted memories?
Is it normal that he doesn't consider those memories as his own? Don't all the research data anout implanted memories that you mentioned suggest the opposite?
Yes, that's true... but it's not like there are any better scientific models for Touya's ostensible condition. Honestly, I don't want to have any more scientific debate about this, because (assuming you actually believe most of Touya's narration) Touya's condition is borderline science fiction regardless of your interpretation of it.

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Wait a second. She has a motive to bring a guy that she brainwashed in believing he is Battler in front of Ange, but not to simply hire a man to pose as him?

Explain.
You're projecting the motive onto the wrong source: It's Touya with the motive to see Ange, not Ikuko.

Of course you could debate as to how likely evil-brainwasher-version-Ikuko would be to permit Touya and Ange to meet, but "Touya is just an actor hired by Ikuko" doesn't even make for such a debate; it's dead on arrival.

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So I finished reading the novels three weeks ago, and I needed go somewhere and talk about it. Then this thread appeared and... yeah.
Welcome to the discussion.

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I'm no doctor, I couldn't tell. But in Umineko there's a good plot point to shut that down. Remember? Beatrice II? No matter how Kinzo might've played the thing, no matter if she grew up sealed away from reality and believed in magic and wolves, she could not be someone she wasn't. She couldn't be Castiglioni. And then we have how 'no one can kill or resurrect the character but the actor that created him' in EP7.
(No one uses Umineko spoiler tags here)
As I see it, what you are saying about Beatrice II doesn't contrast with Touya's situation at all, but rather mimics it. Touya couldn't be Battler, either. Right?

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-08-27 at 05:30.
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Old 2012-08-27, 06:49   Link #30192
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Of all the coincidences in Umineko, THIS is the one that bothers you? Are you serious, Jan-Poo? Even the most ridiculous Touya explanation is better than some of the canonical 'coincidences' we got. It's even a theme.

Miracles n' shit.
All of them bothers me, and the bother increases with the increment of coincidences.

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These are all arguments that work equally well against (Touya=Battler_&_Ikuko=random) as they do (Touya=random_&_Ikuko=Yasu). I find it ironic that you're using (Ikuko=Yasu_&_Touya=Battler) arguments here.
No I don't think you have understood what I mean. I'm not talking about the coincidence of Ikuko and Tohya being compatible or anything but the coincidence of Tohya having all these qualities (some of which unusual) that Battler is assumed to have.


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You're projecting the motive onto the wrong source: It's Touya with the motive to see Ange, not Ikuko.

Of course you could debate as to how likely evil-brainwasher-version-Ikuko would be to permit Touya and Ange to meet, but "Touya is just an actor hired by Ikuko" doesn't even make for such a debate; it's dead on arrival.
You'll need to admit it either way. You are imagining that Ikuko has completely brainwashed a brain damaged random person she found on a street. You are imagining that she has basically complete control on him.
Would have been so difficult to just tell that Ange refused to meet it? Especially considering that for several decades Ange has been completely elusive?

But you still haven't said what would be the reason for Ikuko to brainwash Tohya to begin with. If it's something that it is merely postulated, you can't really say that "Y is wrong because she has no reason to do X". One can always postulate a reason X as you have postulated yours.

Ah and brainwashing is evil by definition. there's no good version of your Yasu-Ikuko.
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Old 2012-08-27, 07:56   Link #30193
Patchwork Chimera
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Welcome to the discussion.
(No one uses Umineko spoiler tags here)

As I see it, what you are saying about Beatrice II doesn't contrast with Touya's situation at all, but rather mimics it. Touya couldn't be Battler, either. Right?
Thanks for the welcome And the tip. I wasn't realy sure how all this works, but is a relief not having to spoilertag everything.

No, what I'm saying is that Beatrice II is a precedent. It's like "okay, this might work, but in this place doesn't work that way". A recurrent topic, to say it someway.

Now I'll make a case of the power of a precedent:

Like how anbody can stop dead Dlanor's Knox Rules in EP5 the moment she utters them with a well placed 'Knox might not even apply in this story/situation/twilight' or even 'You're stating what Knox #X says, but not about what this case is about' and to nail it further 'You're not the game master and the existence/possibility of X can't be DENIED in red just because you won't allow it.'. All casually forget those blue stakes, because is implicit that they might work, but for the sake of plot nobody thinks of them. This is a precedent (in-story, fandom has used them more than enough times). If Knox was denied by that plothole, it would be pretty lame and then we wouldn't have the awesome red spam of DEATH.

Take another pick 'Someone pretending to be another for kicks makes a new person, even if that's not human'. That's a precedent. Hell, thats even a red RULE, how Kanon's been trolling us, how Ange was able to survive 1998 even if she was declared dead, and how ShannonxGeorge became worse when all that sappyness wasn't enough. Science would call that statement bullcrap: could be forgiven if it was a case of MPD, but is just some guy with serious denial issues! How's that gonna make a personality?

Those two situations are examples of the power of a precedent in-story. Invalidating a theory without outright shutting it in red. The blue stakes are invalid in the games through the power of denial, and calling nonsense that idiocy of "death of a character that isn't even a personality" is a forbidden move too, stated even with red.

So, to make a long story shorter, Beatrice II and EP7 line are a prcedent to say 'Nobody can even pretend to be other human - exceptions made of furniture, and they are limited to the human that created them'. With this rule, nobody can disguise themselves of other suspects, but Yasu can disguise as Beatrice. Others can't disguise themselves as Beatrice, because Beato is furniture and limited to hir creator.

Tohya wasn't Battler anymore, and he even aknowledged that he couldn't be him (more along the lines that "It terrified me, because I felt that it wasn't correct"), but at the end he was able to remember Mr. Batora, a human that became furniture when he killed himself to follow Beato, thus recognizing that "Tohya's body was a vessel of Battler long ago." Then he accepted Battle in that last scene and efectively 'resurrected' him (Aknowledging furniture).

Maybe Tohya will never be Battler again, but he was Battler some time before.

So Thoya = Battler is not a mimic, but acttualy an inversion of BeatriceII=/=Castiglioni. While BetyII couldn't be Castiglioni no matter how hard she tried to make Kinzo happy, Tohya couldn't stop being part Battler even if he tried to supress it; he didn't had his memories at the begining, the amnesia was temporal (for the plot's convenience) and when they returned, things got ugly because 18 dissosiated himself from Bato so hard he gave himself an attack.

Ikuko was not an evil brainwasher. She tried to make an amnesiac remember, and when that worked horribly well, she let Tohya be Tohya.

Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-08-27 at 08:30. Reason: Damn it! My english SUCKS so bad it should be considered a logic error >_<U
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Old 2012-08-27, 09:06   Link #30194
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No I don't think you have understood what I mean. I'm not talking about the coincidence of Ikuko and Tohya being compatible or anything but the coincidence of Tohya having all these qualities (some of which unusual) that Battler is assumed to have.
The same qualities involving the age~name connection you're making and the mystery novel connection you're making apply to the link between Ikuko and Yasu as much as the link between Battler and Touya.

I don't see random=Touya's coincidental traits as any less plausible than Battler=Touya being found by a random, wealthy, hermit mystery writer with a vague past who likes to write anonymously, has an inclination to take random amnesiacs she picks off the street into her family (without contacting any authorities), and happens to have a name to match the age of Yasu.

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But you still haven't said what would be the reason for Ikuko to brainwash Tohya to begin with. If it's something that it is merely postulated, you can't really say that "Y is wrong because she has no reason to do X". One can always postulate a reason X as you have postulated yours.
I've implied it already, rather clearly in my opinion. It's the same reason Kinzo wanted Beatrice II to be Beatrice I. Yasu refuses to accept that Battler is dead and is trying to "resurrect" him.

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You'll need to admit it either way. You are imagining that Ikuko has completely brainwashed a brain damaged random person she found on a street. You are imagining that she has basically complete control on him.
Would have been so difficult to just tell that Ange refused to meet it? Especially considering that for several decades Ange has been completely elusive?
I never said it would be difficult for Ikuko to avoid Touya meeting with Ange. I said it's a matter of her permitting it.

You're making an assumption here that Ikuko would automatically see Touya meeting Ange entirely as a threat to her "work" done on Touya and nothing else. It's important to remember that evil-version-Ikuko has thus far failed to make Touya into Battler. After all these decades she's only managed a half-success, so at this point she's probably either given up, gotten sick of the rut, or is in some other way dissatisfied with the status quo. Maybe she just doesn't care enough any more to keep trying to keep a tight lid on Touya, or maybe Touya meeting Yukari could even be seen as an opportunity.

Is Ikuko even taking that big a gamble in meeting Yukari? Consider that even if Yukari says Touya isn't Battler, or Touya's memories don't quite meet with Yukari's (whose own memories of her brother are from when she was 6 and younger), would it even change anything between Touya and Ikuko? Probably not. And what if Ikuko "wins" the gamble and Touya and Yukari hit it off as long lost siblings? Wouldn't that make Touya more "Battler" than before?

Or what if maybe she does see Ange as a threat, but doesn't care because she's been conflicted about the whole affair for a long time and has finally decided to "let fate decide".

Or what if she actually wants to support Touya meeting Yukari simply because she genuinely wants to support "Battler"? Remember, it's all predicated on her own "magic" delusion of Touya actually being Battler as well.

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~~~
Very interesting stuff. I may comment later, when I have more time.
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Old 2012-08-27, 10:02   Link #30195
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A reminder on the hair color: The Kinzo flashback in ep7 shows him with white hair in his 30s. Granted, this is all speculative since we don't know if the hair colors are merely aesthetic or not, but if Kinzo's hair went white early, Kyrie has white hair, and Battler is said to resemble Kinzo very closely, it's entirely possible that Battler's hair would've gone white in his 30s too, if not earlier.

A better question would be how his hairstyle changed, but that's such an incredibly minor matter that can be fixed with scissors.
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Old 2012-08-27, 10:11   Link #30196
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Maybe Kinzo aged prematurely in face of his crappy meaningless life. Maybe Ryuukishi was lazy AGAIN and just picked up a Young!Kinzo sprite, put it a suit on and called it a day. I know I would've done it if it was just for three miserable lines at the end of an extra.

Random idea ALERT

So, speaking about white hair, you think Amakusa is/was part of the Sumaderas? Sumadera was an important part of the Ushiromiya company so an ex-hitman of theirs working as Ange's bodyguard in the good days (read, when they werent fighting for the company) is not that farfetched.

And Juuza Amakusa sounds so much to 'Yakuzamakusa' that is just ridiculous. Anagram, anyone?

Then we have white hair, which has been used in old soldiers and Sumadera-related family. Oh, and Claire, but she hardly counts as more than a book.

I know is random, but what can I say...

EDIT: I watched that 'Battler solves a logic error'. And I cracked. The duct tape is almighty! Now I understand Erika's happiness at having some LOL
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Old 2012-08-27, 10:18   Link #30197
Renall
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Maybe Kinzo aged prematurely in face of his crappy meaningless life. Maybe Ryuukishi was lazy AGAIN and just picked up a Young!Kinzo sprite, put it a suit on and called it a day. I know I would've done it if it was just for three miserable lines at the end of an extra.
Well, that is literally exactly what he did and the photoshoppery is exactly as lazy as you describe, but unless the PS3 version or manga portrays him (or Kinzo) as looking different, it's all we have to go on. I actually haven't had a chance to see those particular PS3 sprites.

Also Battler's life was at least as physically and mentally debilitating as Kinzo's, maybe moreso, if he truly is Tohya. Dude's been through a lot. Stress-induced hair pigmentation loss with a genetic predisposition to it is possible, I guess.

I'm just kinda sad older-Tohya doesn't use Kinzo's sprite as a base instead of Battler's. Now that would be interesting.
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Old 2012-08-27, 10:37   Link #30198
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Well, that is literally exactly what he did and the photoshoppery is exactly as lazy as you describe, but unless the PS3 version or manga portrays him (or Kinzo) as looking different, it's all we have to go on. I actually haven't had a chance to see those particular PS3 sprites.

Also Battler's life was at least as physically and mentally debilitating as Kinzo's, maybe moreso, if he truly is Tohya. Dude's been through a lot. Stress-induced hair pigmentation loss with a genetic predisposition to it is possible, I guess.

I'm just kinda sad older-Tohya doesn't use Kinzo's sprite as a base instead of Battler's. Now that would be interesting.
I... I'm not sure my heart is ready to see what PS3 will do to Kinzo or everyone else. The faces and bad-good-art are so weird I frankly prefer the ugly kind-of-charming draw of the PC version. Case in point: Maria. Is like a monster, that child. Or eva, who looks more retarded than troll when laughing in Natsuhis face. Or Beato who just looks bizarre. I have this extrange feeling that the incest vibes will up over nine thousand when Bice and Young Kinzo are PS3fied. One can put the blame in lazy copypaste in the PC version, but in the other version... well.

But yeah, stress and bad luck with genes will do that to a person's hair.
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Old 2012-08-27, 10:38   Link #30199
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The same qualities involving the age~name connection you're making and the mystery novel connection you're making apply to the link between Ikuko and Yasu as much as the link between Battler and Touya.

I don't see random=Touya's coincidental traits as any less plausible than Battler=Touya being found by a random, wealthy, hermit mystery writer with a vague past who likes to write anonymously, has an inclination to take random amnesiacs she picks off the street into her family (without contacting any authorities), and happens to have a name to match the age of Yasu.
wealthy - quite disputable. Yasu was never shown as making use of her wealth as a way to live a comfortable life as Ikuko does. In addition Ikuko isn't particularly wealthy herself, she just receives money from her wealthy family.
In the end on this point she is a lot more similar to Ange than to Yasu.

hermit - Yasu doesn't qualify as an hermit anymore than Jessica did. And it wasn't by her choice anyway, unlike Ikuko.

write anonymously - nowhere it is said that she wrote her books anonymously before meeting Battler. And even after that she wrote many books with her pen name. It's as if you said that Van Dine wrote books anonymously.

picks amnesiacs from the streets - where's the relation?

vague past - her family situation was described, even if vague. It doesn't match with Yasu's. You can't say that "her past might be a lie" and then claim that the postulated lack of info on her background thereof is a coincidence.


At any rate it seems to me your arguments are similar to those who try to argue that work A is a rip off of work B pointing all the similarities, and omitting to mention all the differences.

There are a lot of things that do not match between what we know about Ikuko and what we know about Yasu, and you need to call them lies to make your theory work. But between Tohya and Battler, their stories are completely compatible.


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I've implied it already, rather clearly in my opinion. It's the same reason Kinzo wanted Beatrice II to be Beatrice I. Yasu refuses to accept that Battler is dead and is trying to "resurrect" him.
It's an entirely postulated reason, and as you said, even if it was true it didn't work.

What makes it better than a "Ikuko wanted Ange to believe that her brother is still alive"?

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Or what if she actually wants to support Touya meeting Yukari simply because she genuinely wants to support "Battler"? Remember, it's all predicated on her own "magic" delusion of Touya actually being Battler as well.
He's not Battler, you said it yourself. At this point she should have given up on that. And yet it is implied that they are a couple.

But I think there is a very big problem in your whole theory. Why would Ikuko call him Tohya rather than Battler? Kinzo called Beatrice's daughter like her mother, I think that's really the least you would expect from someone who wants to think a person as another one.

It's as if she helped him in creating a different personality for himself.

Additionally. If she found an amnesiac to mold as she pleases, wouldn't it have been a lot easier and more effective to tell him that he was Battler right off the bat? The flashbacks imply that several years passed since he actually started to remember, and that's the whole problem I think.
If he never had the time to create a new identity for himself, he wouldn't have felt like his mind was splitting in two.
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Old 2012-08-27, 11:24   Link #30200
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At any rate it seems to me your arguments are similar to those who try to argue that work A is a rip off of work B pointing all the similarities, and omitting to mention all the differences.

There are a lot of things that do not match between what we know about Ikuko and what we know about Yasu, and you need to call them lies to make your theory work. But between Tohya and Battler, their stories are completely compatible.
I pretty much agree with this. I don't really see what the use of the Yasu=Ikuko theory is or why we should complicated the already complicated Umineko by overthinking its every detail that much.

It's just as you say, people only use any vague similarities they might have, some of which are only things we can infer or even cook up by stretching certain bits. I could accept it if there was any substancial hint within the narrative, but it just seems like a pointless theory in the first place.

Quote:
But I think there is a very big problem in your whole theory. Why would Ikuko call him Tohya rather than Battler? Kinzo called Beatrice's daughter like her mother, I think that's really the least you would expect from someone who wants to think a person as another one.

It's as if she helped him in creating a different personality for himself.
I think that personality had already been created and crystalized before he started remembering anything, so it was probably him who didn't want to be called Battler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
I know this is off topic but about Tohya's hair color I don't think it caused by that being his real hair color or anything I think his hair just turned white naturally. I mean Tohya is probably 50-60 years old because he would've been 30 in 1998 and the game says decades later so he could be around that age thus why his hair has already whitened. Not to mention stress and the like.
Or we can go Sweeney Todd about this and say his hair went white from the unimaginable things he witnessed in Rokenjima that day.
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Last edited by Captain Bluebeard; 2012-08-27 at 11:42.
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