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Old 2012-08-27, 10:48   Link #4161
Eidolon Sniper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
So instead you want Mu to let Murrue and the Archangel crew just die in front of him?
It was a heated battle, everything was blowing up all around them, and god forbid those 2 battleships decided that hell yeah, they should have a showdown with all those pretty lazers, and disregard the entire fleet they belong to. I don't know, why exactly did those 2 engage again when they were probably needed to give support to their own faction? I didn't see Ptolemaios single out a battleship, nor have I seen the Diva do something like this too, it must be just a CE thing.

Spoiler for Kiracus development:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk Ze Tormentor
I make the “development list” just to focus on the “love points” that both Kira & Lacus get for each interaction they get. Once again, I didn’t make the list to stress or justify any events that I wrote coz my focus is the “romantic” interactions and “love points” (the bolded parts). The events that I wrote there, are plainly what was presented in the anime. Why do you even have to argue that? Do you also want to deny the things that actually happens in SEED? The “love points” itself is my own concept, but I already told you that it’s just for the lulz.

Note: Just so you know, I’m not interested in “shipping wars” in SEED. I just happened to wrote about Kira & Lacus’ romantic development. It doesn’t mean I’m in “Team Lacus”. Don’t you get it?
The things you have outlined were also shown by/disproved/disowned/shot down in SEED by what I put on my reply. You say you don't really like the shipping wars going on in SEED, but you are going on about how they were shown in the anime (as plain as they were shown and heaven forbid what really went on is a flat out lie) and you even term your list as "love points". By stating that I seem to be a not so bright individual, it appears you are taking offense because I also jokingly put in those hard facts of SEED as they were also shown in the anime. Do you deny everything I also stated, that it didn't happen in SEED? I'm not even denying anything you put there, it all happened, I just threw back what really happened for your "love points".
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Old 2012-08-27, 11:54   Link #4162
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i also think kira would had gone back to flay had she lived.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:03   Link #4163
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They would've reconciled at the very least, which at least opens the door for them to try again, properly.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:12   Link #4164
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
It was a heated battle, everything was blowing up all around them, and god forbid those 2 battleships decided that hell yeah, they should have a showdown with all those pretty lazers, and disregard the entire fleet they belong to. I don't know, why exactly did those 2 engage again when they were probably needed to give support to their own faction? I didn't see Ptolemaios single out a battleship, nor have I seen the Diva do something like this too, it must be just a CE thing.
It must be a CE thing to destroy your enemy in a war. Do you seriously believe that?

Spoiler for Kiracus development:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
They would've reconciled at the very least, which at least opens the door for them to try again, properly.
That, I feel, is the only regret Kira has regarding Flay, that they never got to sort out their feelings with each other.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:17   Link #4165
Rising Dragon
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I personally feel it makes sense for the Archangel and the Dominion to fight each other--something has to stop the Peacekeepers, and the Dominion is the flagship for that particular force in the Alliance. And because it's an Archangel-class warship, the only thing that really has enough firepower to take it on is another Archangel-class.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:22   Link #4166
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Originally Posted by hero147 View Post
Had Fllay lived, Kira would still be with Lacus. He rejected her with time to spare before she got kidnapped by Rau Lecruset.
Yet he was going back to her and he was distraught that he lost Fllay despite trying his best to save her(Kira never broke down as bad as he did when he lost Fllay). That and Fllay realized that she was wrong to mess with Kira's feelings and that she loved him like he had loved her. If she hadn't died and was saved Lacus wouldn't have stood a chance. Of course Fllay returning to Kira and Lacus out of the picture would remove the unneeded assassinate Lacus, even though she's doing nothing at all, thing to force Kira into the current war.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:30   Link #4167
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Yet he was going back to her and he was distraught that he lost Fllay despite trying his bets to save her.
Sure, but that does not mean that Kira wants to be Flay's sex partner again.
Quote:
That and Fllay realized that she was wrong to mess with Kira's feelings and that she loved him like he had loved her. If she hadn't died and was saved Lacus wouldn't have stood a chance.
Over the years, I've come to accept that Kira would most likely still end up with Lacus had Flay lived, but it still would've been interesting to see if Flay would fight for Kira's love or if she would've been happy just to have reconciled with him.
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Old 2012-08-27, 13:16   Link #4168
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
The things you have outlined were also shown by/disproved/disowned/shot down in SEED by what I put on my reply. You say you don't really like the shipping wars going on in SEED, but you are going on about how they were shown in the anime (as plain as they were shown and heaven forbid what really went on is a flat out lie) and you even term your list as "love points".
Sigh… still missing my point.
You see dude. My list is merely focusing about Kira x Lacus “romantic” interactions, but most of your reply to each one of my point is talking about anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
By stating that I seem to be a not so bright individual, it appears you are taking offense because I also jokingly put in those hard facts of SEED as they were also shown in the anime. Do you deny everything I also stated, that it didn't happen in SEED? I'm not even denying anything you put there, it all happened, I just threw back what really happened for your "love points".
Do I take offense of your reply? Yes, slightly, coz your reply is like: when I was talking about Tiger, someone interrupted me and continue to talk about Donkey. Get it now?

Sigh....okay dude, let me show you some example of your own words (bolded):
Spoiler for Eidolon's reply:
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Last edited by Obelisk ze Tormentor; 2012-08-27 at 13:26.
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Old 2012-08-27, 14:52   Link #4169
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Yet he was going back to her and he was distraught that he lost Fllay despite trying his best to save her(Kira never broke down as bad as he did when he lost Fllay). That and Fllay realized that she was wrong to mess with Kira's feelings and that she loved him like he had loved her. If she hadn't died and was saved Lacus wouldn't have stood a chance. Of course Fllay returning to Kira and Lacus out of the picture would remove the unneeded assassinate Lacus, even though she's doing nothing at all, thing to force Kira into the current war.
The only reason why Kira broke mostly the way he did is because he felt guilty about Fllay. He failed to save her father and felt that he had to make amends which he couldn't do soon enough. Honestly, I thought that most of the crap that went on with Fllay was due to complications from Kira's enormous saviour complex. Do you remember the origami flower that the little girl gave to Kira right before she died on a civilian transport en route to earth? Kira was also quite distraught after that incident as well.

I've never thought that the whole Kira x Fllay relationship was very healthy. There was a lot of passion but a lot of guilt as well. It's also why the Lunamaria x Shinn pairing never sat well with me either. It's like Stockholm Syndrome.

Edit: Since someone neg repped me for me saying it was like Stockholm syndrome instead of replying, I'll elaborate further, how many people do you know that would form a relationship with the man who supposedly killed your sister?

Last edited by hero147; 2012-08-27 at 15:27.
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Old 2012-08-27, 19:33   Link #4170
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Old 2012-08-27, 20:08   Link #4171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hero147 View Post
The only reason why Kira broke mostly the way he did is because he felt guilty about Fllay. He failed to save her father and felt that he had to make amends which he couldn't do soon enough. Honestly, I thought that most of the crap that went on with Fllay was due to complications from Kira's enormous saviour complex. Do you remember the origami flower that the little girl gave to Kira right before she died on a civilian transport en route to earth? Kira was also quite distraught after that incident as well.

I've never thought that the whole Kira x Fllay relationship was very healthy. There was a lot of passion but a lot of guilt as well. It's also why the Lunamaria x Shinn pairing never sat well with me either. It's like Stockholm Syndrome.
This.

I still can't believe some people are going back on that topic virtually 10 years later. In the first half of SEED, we know people were counting on Kira, but the unwanted result was that he put too much pressure on himself. Fllay was also involved in this, that's why she felt guilty afterwards. Still, guilt is not a good ground for any relationship.

I'm not ditching the part between Kira and Fllay; in fact, it was important for us to see how Kira would transform himself. However, I also never felt it would be healthy for both of them in the long run no matter what would have happened afterwards. When we look at it, Fllay was symbolizing Kira's adolescence (with all the hardships and immaturity going with it) and Lacus was then the key person in "helping" (I can say it) Kira becoming more of an adult in his actions. Indeed, it's also about how Kira goes from boy to become a man and the shipping debate was sealed in that aspect from the very beginning IMHO.
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Old 2012-08-27, 21:56   Link #4172
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Quote:
Still, guilt is not a good ground for any relationship.
Overcoming that guilt is a better triumph than going through stale, stagnant waters. It's the journey that makes a relationship worth it, just imagine if Frodo and Sam never had any hardships at all, how boring would LOTR would be. Everyone of us likes that perfect relationship, but the real world doesn't work that way, you have to prove and fight for it.
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Old 2012-08-27, 23:44   Link #4173
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Originally Posted by hero147 View Post
The only reason why Kira broke mostly the way he did is because he felt guilty about Fllay. He failed to save her father and felt that he had to make amends which he couldn't do soon enough. Honestly, I thought that most of the crap that went on with Fllay was due to complications from Kira's enormous saviour complex. Do you remember the origami flower that the little girl gave to Kira right before she died on a civilian transport en route to earth? Kira was also quite distraught after that incident as well.

I've never thought that the whole Kira x Fllay relationship was very healthy. There was a lot of passion but a lot of guilt as well. It's also why the Lunamaria x Shinn pairing never sat well with me either. It's like Stockholm Syndrome.

Edit: Since someone neg repped me for me saying it was like Stockholm syndrome instead of replying, I'll elaborate further, how many people do you know that would form a relationship with the man who supposedly killed your sister?
No, he loved Fllay more than he ever will love Lacus whom is the girl he settled with because Fllay couldn't be saved. Had he successfully saved Fllay and brought her back he would have patched things up with her. Especially since she wanted to be with him instead of pretend to love him anymore. At that point Lacus and Kira weren't an item and he wasn't concerned about her in "that" way while he still had strong feelings for Fllay.

Are you talking about Shinn? Shinn didn't mean to kill Lunamaria's sister he had to follow orders. If he wasn't going to do it than Rey would going to. It had to be Shinn since he could at least make Athrun and her death as painless as possible. Afterwards Shinn felt extremely guilty over it and wanted Lunamaria to hate him, however they've known each other for a long time and as far as Lunamaria knew Athrun was a traitor. Had Athrun not betrayed them and stolen away her sister than none of that would have happened.

So there's no point in hating Shinn since he had no choice on the matter and it was more of a mercy killing since he took it out in one blow. Besides, Shinn was the only one Lunamaria had left after all that. The others wouldn't understand her pain, Shinn though could because he had just as much connection with those two especially to Athrun whom he looked up to.

Which lead to them realizing that he wanted to be more than just friends. Their relationship than was rocky but by the end of SEED Destiny they still remained together even though the whole reason they felt guilty and got together was a lie. So their feelings for each other were always there, it just took a huge event like that to get push them together as a couple and not just best friends.
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Old 2012-08-28, 00:11   Link #4174
Eidolon Sniper
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Spoiler:



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Old 2012-08-28, 00:42   Link #4175
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
No, he loved Fllay more than he ever will love Lacus
Correction: Kira might had a crush on Flay. He thought he loved Flay, but in the end, he realized they just weren't right for each other at the time.

Could they have gone back together had Flay lived? Sure, it's possible given time. But at this point, I'm more inclined to believe that they'll just stay as friends.
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Old 2012-08-28, 00:53   Link #4176
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
Overcoming that guilt is a better triumph than going through stale, stagnant waters. It's the journey that makes a relationship worth it, just imagine if Frodo and Sam never had any hardships at all, how boring would LOTR would be. Everyone of us likes that perfect relationship, but the real world doesn't work that way, you have to prove and fight for it.
While obstacles do strengthen a relationship, guilt never benefits anyone. With guilt, a vague line forms as to whether or not a couple is staying together because they want to or they have to. Is Kira staying with Fllay because he loves her or is he staying with her because he failed in saving her dad? There are many people who stay together out of obligation rather than love. Are they happy? Probably not.

And I'm part of the party that doesn't see a problem in Kira and Lacus' relationship. They're only 18 in Destiny so it's understandable that they're not rushing into things. People and by extension relationships are pretty diverse so I'm not sure where all the criticism is coming from.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
No, he loved Fllay more than he ever will love Lacus whom is the girl he settled with because Fllay couldn't be saved. Had he successfully saved Fllay and brought her back he would have patched things up with her. Especially since she wanted to be with him instead of pretend to love him anymore. At that point Lacus and Kira weren't an item and he wasn't concerned about her in "that" way while he still had strong feelings for Fllay.

Are you talking about Shinn? Shinn didn't mean to kill Lunamaria's sister he had to follow orders. If he wasn't going to do it than Rey would going to. It had to be Shinn since he could at least make Athrun and her death as painless as possible. Afterwards Shinn felt extremely guilty over it and wanted Lunamaria to hate him, however they've known each other for a long time and as far as Lunamaria knew Athrun was a traitor. Had Athrun not betrayed them and stolen away her sister than none of that would have happened.

So there's no point in hating Shinn since he had no choice on the matter and it was more of a mercy killing since he took it out in one blow. Besides, Shinn was the only one Lunamaria had left after all that. The others wouldn't understand her pain, Shinn though could because he had just as much connection with those two especially to Athrun whom he looked up to.

Which lead to them realizing that he wanted to be more than just friends. Their relationship than was rocky but by the end of SEED Destiny they still remained together even though the whole reason they felt guilty and got together was a lie. So their feelings for each other were always there, it just took a huge event like that to get push them together as a couple and not just best friends.
Which is what makes the whole Lacus and Kira pairing so much more beautiful than what Fllay, Shinn, and Lunamaria ever produced. They came together naturally and there wasn't an ounce of guilt that needed to coerce them together. It wasn't out of obligation, they wanted to be together.

Even if it was an order, starting a relationship with the man who killed your sister is not what I would consider healthy.
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Old 2012-08-28, 01:22   Link #4177
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Uhh.. No it doesn't. Kira loved Fllay and had a crush on her before SEED even started. He never felt that way towards Lacus, it was severely one sided. Lacus liked Kira because he was nice but he didn't show the same amount of affection to her. She was just a nice person that he happened to help. Had Fllay lived than there is no chance Lacus would have the courage to go after Kira, since he would be with Fllay, and Kira wouldn't have noticed that she's madly in love with him.

And no, it wasn't natural. They met by chance and than they didn't meet for long periods of time. There was no real work up there. Kira just meets Lacus again and she's in love with him which he fails to notice.

At least Shinn showed interest in Lunamaria and was clearly jealous when she stopped hanging out with him to try and hang out with her idol, Athrun. Or Lunamaria's reaction what she was told to go into the city with Shinn since Athrun just isn't into her.

Yes there was guilt. Kira was extremely vulnerable when Fllay died, Lacus used that moment to get in close with Kira. Had Fllay lived and been returned Kira wouldn't be so messed up and would be spending time with Fllay.

Stop with that BS statement, Shinn didn't want to kill them. He was ordered and as far as he knew they both betrayed ZAFT which means that they were war criminals. He was told to kill them to prove his loyalty, if Shinn didn't kill them than Rey would have and unlike Shinn there was nothing stopping Rey from drawing out their pain.

Shinn did what he had to do, had he not done it he would have been labeled a co-conspirator and who knows what would happen to Lunamaria since she has a close relationship with Shinn thus she would be seen in that light as well. Only Rey would have gotten away clean if Shinn didn't kill Athrun because he didn't have an attachment with either of the targets like those two did.

Furthermore they were best friends and Lunamaria isn't going to hate Shinn because he didn't have a choice in the matter and again. Shinn is the only one left that could understand what Lunamaria was going through and Shinn wanted her to hate him even though his hand was forced but she couldn't. This at least shows that Lunamaria isn't blind to hate, though understanding why Shinn did what he did helped. Had Shinn understood why Kira was fighting at Orb and why war was brought there I doubt he would have hated Kira even though Kira accidentally killed his family.

So again, as far as the two are concerned at the time that it was Athrun that forced that situation and it's his fault over what Shinn was forced to do.

Last edited by Destined_Fate; 2012-08-28 at 01:53.
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Old 2012-08-28, 01:34   Link #4178
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
For Obelisk ze Tormentor.
Wait, am I talking about something else? It's just the same things you posted, except with a dose of what really went on behind your supposed "joke list". You are getting riled up essentially because SEED was telling us otherwise of a random "joke" romantic point. So who's missing the point now?
You’re the one who still miss my points. Let me repeat this again: I was only talking about interaction between Kira & Lacus, not everything else behind it like what you shoved to my list as replies. One example of your out-of-context reply: Lowe saving Lacus (behind the scene), so how’s that has anything to do with Kira & Lacus' interaction? Interaction means exchanging words and acting toward each other, don’t you know that? Does Lowe’s action change Kira’s behavior toward Lacus & vice versa? That’s just one of your reply to me, there are others with similar fashion.

See, you don’t get my point right from the start. And if you still don’t get what I mean after this very post of mine, then why bother arguing me at all?



Btw, whenever you lost to an argument, you directly ignore it and talk about something else. For example this one:

Eidolon
“Did he know about how Murrue's last loved one/boyfriend died? I think he did? In that case, Mwu should KNOW that trying to do anything akin to how Murrue's last boyfriend died is a definite no-no (seeing as Murrue is still hurting and traumatized from it). Yeah, they're in the military and accidents happen, but actively going in the way of a photon beam when it's a lost cause is probably the stupidest thing to do, seeing how he forced Murrue to see him die right in front of her eyes.”

Monster
“So instead you want Mu to let Murrue and the Archangel crew just die in front of him?”

Obelisk
“My answer is exactly the same with monster. Do you want Mwu to let Murrue and all Archangel’s crew to be blasted to their deaths just so that “Mwu doesn’t cause further trauma to Murrue”? That is idiotic coz: (1) Mu didn’t have a choice except to protect her since he loves Murrue so much; (2) a traumatized lover with a chance of getting better is A LOT better than a vaporized lover.”

Eidolon (directly changes subject from “Mu’s no-choice action” to “complaining about Archangel vs Dominion showdown”)
“It was a heated battle, everything was blowing up all around them, and god forbid those 2 battleships decided that hell yeah, they should have a showdown with all those pretty lazers, and disregard the entire fleet they belong to. I don't know, why exactly did those 2 engage again when they were probably needed to give support to their own faction? I didn't see Ptolemaios single out a battleship, nor have I seen the Diva do something like this too, it must be just a CE thing.”

So here, the question asked to you is basically :
“According to your own complain, what do you suggest Mu doing which will result in a better outcome?”

And your answer is:
“It was a heated battle, everything was blowing up all around them, and god forbid those 2 battleships decided that hell yeah, they should have a showdown with all those pretty lazers, blablabla yadayada..”

Seriously, your answer to that question is "everything blowing up, etc"?
What kinda answer is that? And that’s just one example from all your posts.


Sorry, but if that’s your method of argument, then your reply does not worth my time. Until you can be more focus and stay on context, I’ll refrain from replying to you after this.
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Old 2012-08-28, 03:27   Link #4179
Eidolon Sniper
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Correction: Kira might had a crush on Flay. He thought he loved Flay, but in the end, he realized they just weren't right for each other at the time.
Correction, he HAD a crush on Fllay, It's not wishful thinking, it's actually there. I mean, it's so easy to ditch Fllay out there and leave her to die, and well, he really shouldn't BE crying about it after either.

Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
You’re the one who still miss my points. Let me repeat this again: I was only talking about interaction between Kira & Lacus, not everything else behind it like what you shoved to my list as replies. One example of your out-of-context reply: Lowe saving Lacus (behind the scene), so how’s that has anything to do with Kira & Lacus' interaction? Interaction means exchanging words and acting toward each other, don’t you know that? Does Lowe’s action change Kira’s behavior toward Lacus & vice versa? That’s just one of your reply to me, there are others with similar fashion.
So...what exactly was wrong with my replies? Were they typed out in a way that says, what you said didn't happen?

Lowe, basically, made it POSSIBLE for those 2 to meet. Without Lowe, Lacus would probably have been made a sacrifice to the Blue Cosmos cause. Without Lowe, Kira would have died (and he rightly should have, because of all the ridiculous circumstances surrounding his survival), and Lacus wouldn't have MET him again. Think. It was Lowe who made sure Lacus was safe, and Kira had INTERACTED with Lacus as she floated out of the escape pod, and Lacus INTERACTED with Kira when she tended to his wounds, all thanks to Lowe saving him from the (laughably bad) Strike cockpit explosion. I am just saying that without Lowe, their "relationship" would have gone nowhere. Why are you so getting mad about this when it's actually helping your "joke" list?

Quote:
Btw, whenever you lost to an argument, you directly ignore it and talk about something else. For example this one:...etc.etc.etc.
Huh? Excuse me? Who lost?

About the Mwu/Murrue argument, that's it, he didn't have a choice, and Murrue was silly enough to have her new love take the lazer blast for the entire Archangel (because she was emotional and for some reason, SEED just decided to put the 2 ships into a deathmatch, despite the stupid tactic). If you've been really paying close attention to that implication, you should have seen that - Murrue's antics cost Mwu his own life, which REALLY could have been avoided if the Archangel and the Dominion weren't shooting each other down, completely disregarding everything else about them. Do you know, Archangel was already open to whatever random battleship/MS was near them (because of the fireworks show), and those could easily have killed them all off, and probably even Mwu's heroic sacrifice wouldn't even mean a thing. But thankfully the Archangel has plot armor, and the evil was reverted.

Now, what would Mwu have done. Become bait and lead the Dominion away from the Archangel? Given that situation (Murrue and Natarle were too busy trying to shoot each other's ship down), I doubt it would really be effective, but at least Mwu tried. I think the Strike was the only MS Archangel has, and it leaves Mwu severely outgunned/outmanned/whatever in case someone decided to go at the Archangel (not just the Dominion). Buster was busy playing with the Druggies somewhere else.
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Old 2012-08-28, 04:07   Link #4180
monster
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Correction, he HAD a crush on Fllay, It's not wishful thinking, it's actually there. I mean, it's so easy to ditch Fllay out there and leave her to die, and well, he really shouldn't BE crying about it after either.
That's just how Kira is.
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