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Old 2012-08-28, 09:11   Link #30221
Patchwork Chimera
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
1) I actually liked Higurashi's art more than Umineko's, believe it or not. And well, I don't really know if you can call it lazy, because you don't know how hard it is to make those damn sprites if you haven't tried to (take it from a person who has), and he did have to shoot and edit the pictures of all the backgrounds, at least in Higurashi, I've read somewhere he took them himself.

Personally, I love Ryukishi's art, I even like it better than some more proffesional visual novels, and a lot more than the ugly PS3 art, but I think I'm the only person in the world who does.

And, nope, he doesn't do the portraits, I'm not really sure who does though...

2) The ocean does not appear BLUE only to furniture without love. Therefore, if Bern's hair is black to you, that makes you even lower than furniture and I'm sorry to say you have no love at all.

I believe that is called a checkmate.
1) It's a matter of perspective, I think. I'm not saying that Alchemist's art is better (I actually don't like that much the remakes they make), and I'll admit that at least Ryuu made a good effort, but he took a lot of shorcuts. Maybe he was smart. Maybe he was lazy. But the art is sloppy.
Then again, he's a doujin writer, so *shruggs*

Taking pictures... Am I the only one that had a Tomitake=Ryuukishi07 theory when read that? I can see the guy taking shots of that Hinamizawa IRL and talking with the villagers.

2) Even if you deny me the right to be human, an argument cannot be undone but by reasoning. I could be a flying monkey, but more important I'm a flying monkey with a point. Your checkmate is overruled. Failure to aknowledge that will result in a headbutt to the face delivered by Will.

EDIT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post

1) Yet more reason to question the Yasu = Baby thing. Not a single prominent western-looking feature in somebody who is genetically half-European? Nevermind looking like Kinzo. Seriously, if the whole incest baby thing is true Kinzo and Beatrice-II's kid would be really distinct in appearance. You wouldn't be able to miss that the child is an Ushiromiya and has Italian ancestry. How Kinzo would've thought Natsuhi would go along with that is beyond me, given that the child would grow up looking nothing like her or Krauss.
-------
2) But it is relevant. We need to know more about Battler in order to understand what he may have actually done that weekend and what kind of person he became later. We need to know if the Battler that existed was the same as Yasu's stories portrayed him (remember, she's writing off, at best, having met him again for a day and a half, and at worst hasn't met him at all at the time the stories are written).

We need to know these things especially because Ryukishi himself floated the Battler Culprit idea but hasn't given us enough information to know if we should take it seriously. Given only the stories, it seems entirely absurd that such a thing would be possible, because Battler has no motive and no disposition to do it. So why even bring up the prospect in ep7/8 and an extra TIP? But we can't really take that line of thinking anywhere, because we just don't know what other details there were in his life.
1) That's a really good point. But the possible western features of the baby were shaded by his/her age. And if the baby was a product of incest, there's a good chance that more of Kinzo would've been in his/her face than of Bice. You know, the poor thing being his son and grandson.
So, if the baby grew, it would be possible to him/her to look a lot like Kinzo. Wich wouldn't be a problem if he was supposed to be Krauss's (related directly to Kinzo) kid.
So Natsuhi would've noticed. Big deal. She wouldn't admit that 'father' had a mistress, never, even in EP7 when one can be almost sure she noticed the weird ressemblance Lion-Kinzo. She'd just not think about it to avoid a headache.
Also, baby would be a quarter-european. You know. Incest-product of the japanese guy.

2) That's the problem. By following the story nobody knew a lot about Battler. Not even himself, with his amnesia. What can be said about him? He was a good guy, didn't have a reason to off his family, he'd never murder anyone anyway, and just to take it further they made him the detective who cannot be the culprit.

But even then, one cannot be so sure... so the scarce theories existed. Ryuukishi pointed clearly that Black Buttler was a product of those crazy goat theories about "Battler as a culprit". They're so impossible you'd have to create a new character, cuz all the sheer OOC would destroy real Battler.
Even then, people still posted them. When it was almost so clear Battler didn't kill anyone, they made him as an (evil) acomplice.
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-08-28 at 09:36.
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Old 2012-08-28, 09:31   Link #30222
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
She doesn't just pick them off the street. She adopts them and hides them from the outside world. Who does this besides someone who wants their own personal amnesiac?
Ikuko. That's really the only person you can state with certainty that she would. Because no one else did that. Yasu didn't do that, unless you assume that Yasu=Ikuko to begin with, and then that becomes circular logic.


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I agree that Battler's and Touya's stories are compatible, but there are so few facts we know about Touya in the first place other than: He had amnesia, he likes mystery novels, and he remembered the number 18.
I think being an exceptional speedreader is the most relevant part.
Amnesia isn't something you can reconduct to a specific person
Liking mystery novel is something that many people do
being a speedreader is rarer.

Anyway he remembered he was 18 years old, which is different from remembering the number 18. This suggests that Tohya lost his memory at that age and Battler went missing at exactly that age. While you can state that there are a lot of people that are 18 years old, this adds quite a lot to the convenience of Ikuko finding an amnesiac moldable as Battler that also casually believes to have the same age Battler had when he disappeared.


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
As far as theorizing that someone is lying...? Testimony ain't worth shit in Umineko.
Yeah, but you can't use the lack of info you create by dismissing something that is stated as a suspicious lack of info. Because you know, just because everything can be a lie, it doesn't mean that everything is a lie.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Let's just focus on the facts we know, which about Ikuko really aren't that much: She goes by the name Ikuko, she's comfortably rich, she has a weird personality, she's a hermit, she writes mysteries, and she adopted and hid an amnesiac from the street.
Of which only "Ikuko" directly connects her to Beatrice, all the rest are either not related to Yasu at all or common enough.
Ikuko might be "weird" but her weirdness is completely different from Yasu's. You could say that Yasu created another personality, but at that point you could even say that Yasu is Tohya.


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Aside from the obvious fact that Yasu gives a lot more shit about Battler than she does about Ange?
You're assuming that she's Yasu, and that Ikuko wouldn't care about anything but Battler.
If we believe that she set up the fake Eva's diary revelation day in order to quench the rampart speculations on the Rokkenjima incident, as the story implies and as Yukari Kotobuki mentions, then she has other agenda, which seems to imply she wants to fix whatever damage her forgeries might have caused.


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
It's entirely stylistic. Watch any live action show or movie converted from manga or anime and the characters will all have black hair. Canon foreigners, like Beatrice, may be an exception.
You haven't seen Sailor Moon live action.

Anyway I think the main problem is the fact that many times it was repeated that Beatrice has "golden hair", as something very exotic and particular. And that would make little sense if Jessica was really as blonde as we see her.

There is then the joke in EP7 about Beatrice having hair like pasta while Japanese are all "pasta al nero di seppia".
This is a clear statement about the fact that Japanese all have black hair.

But as usual Ryuukishi gives us mixed inputs, because Bernkastel clearly mentions the fact that she gave Erika her peculiar hair color. Which means Erika in the gameboard is actually supposed to have blue hair.
Of course she's a fictional character, but then... aren't they all?
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Old 2012-08-28, 11:21   Link #30223
Renall
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
But even then, one cannot be so sure... so the scarce theories existed. Ryuukishi pointed clearly that Black Buttler was a product of those crazy goat theories about "Battler as a culprit". They're so impossible you'd have to create a new character, cuz all the sheer OOC would destroy real Battler.
Even then, people still posted them. When it was almost so clear Battler didn't kill anyone, they made him as an (evil) acomplice.
Bern seems to think he's capable of being an accomplice. Why would she think that? Just for the shits of it?

Besides, we don't know that's actually OOC for Battler. Oh, sure, it's out of character for the Battler character we're familiar with, but that doesn't mean anything. He's a character, just like Kanon. His personality is a fictional construct. It may be based on real information, but we don't have enough of that real information ourselves to guess how accurate the portrayal actually was.

It's possible Battler-Prime had a motive. But there's no evidence for one. That he lacks motive and inclination in his story form is not evidence that he didn't have any, but no positive evidence exists to suggest otherwise. Yet the author of the work pushes forward a notion that, based solely on what we know about the original character, doesn't appear to make sense.

How can we really know Black Battler isn't a closer portrayal of Battler-Prime than Message Bottle Battler? We know almost nothing about Battler-Prime to say.
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Anyway he remembered he was 18 years old, which is different from remembering the number 18. This suggests that Tohya lost his memory at that age and Battler went missing at exactly that age. While you can state that there are a lot of people that are 18 years old, this adds quite a lot to the convenience of Ikuko finding an amnesiac moldable as Battler that also casually believes to have the same age Battler had when he disappeared.
It seems like "just happening upon" Battler himself would be by far the biggest coincidence and that coincidence is made far less so if it was only the encounter that was coincidental and not the specific individual encountered. If you're going to make arguments about probability, perhaps you should actually consider the likelihood of all such events.

Meeting a person with amnesia by chance is unlikely. Meeting a specific and particular person with amnesia by chance is essentially near-impossible.
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Old 2012-08-28, 11:31   Link #30224
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The thing is, hair color is fair game; Beatrice's gets mentioned a lot and is a plot point. Then the game goes and portrays Jessica as also being blonde, except it never suggests she actually is in the text and no suspicion is ever thrown on Jessica for having blonde hair (because, presumably, she doesn't really). So what was the point of that? I think it was a cheap way to make people suspect her for no reason other than that she was drawn that way.
Yeah, or perhaps Ryukishi didn't even think that far, so why should we? Personally, I never thought that the sprites of each character could actually give us any hint of some sort, let alone their hair color (okay, except for Kanon looking ridiculously similar to Shannon, but rather than a hint, this was most probably done to avoid things like 'this can't be, Kanon and Shannon look nothing like each other' e.t.c.). And the Beatrice dressup game is really not practical as it excludes absolutely all males apart from perhaps Kanon from suspicion. The blond hair doesn't really work either because anyone could get a blond wig. I think anyone who tried to say 'Jessica is the culrpit because she's blond' would themselves be aware of the fact that they are utterly ridiculous.

Quote:
But it is relevant. We need to know more about Battler in order to understand what he may have actually done that weekend and what kind of person he became later. We need to know if the Battler that existed was the same as Yasu's stories portrayed him (remember, she's writing off, at best, having met him again for a day and a half, and at worst hasn't met him at all at the time the stories are written).
Or perhaps we can create many theories based on the information that we do have. Prime is sort of a cat-box where you can suppose anything, so I think it's interesting to have the six-year-gap available for forgery reasonings. I still think all relevant information (at least as far as the stories are concerened) was discussed.

Plus, Ange's memories of Battler do seem to match with his character in the message bottles.

Quote:
We need to know these things especially because Ryukishi himself floated the Battler Culprit idea but hasn't given us enough information to know if we should take it seriously. Given only the stories, it seems entirely absurd that such a thing would be possible, because Battler has no motive and no disposition to do it. So why even bring up the prospect in ep7/8 and an extra TIP? But we can't really take that line of thinking anywhere, because we just don't know what other details there were in his life.
I personally think that Black Battler was created only so that they could make a Battler clone in Ougon.

But seriously now, it never was meant to be any hint towards Battler being the culrpit. Black Battler personifies the idea the concept of a culprit Battler and he's plainly a theoretical existence created by all the people who believe Battler is the culprit. There's nothing more into him.

But I still believe it was all just to avoid making new characters for the game. Clones are cheaper.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But as usual Ryuukishi gives us mixed inputs, because Bernkastel clearly mentions the fact that she gave Erika her peculiar hair color. Which means Erika in the gameboard is actually supposed to have blue hair.
Of course she's a fictional character, but then... aren't they all?
Thta's what I'm talking about. They're all fictional characters in a fictional story set up in a fictional universe which isn't the least bit realistic, so to question the realism as far as the hair colors are concerned is just stupid.

Okay, the Battler-Ange-Kyrie hair color is a whole different story. That might raise some understandable questions (come to think of it, the Lion-Jessica too?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
1) It's a matter of perspective, I think. I'm not saying that Alchemist's art is better (I actually don't like that much the remakes they make), and I'll admit that at least Ryuu made a good effort, but he took a lot of shorcuts. Maybe he was smart. Maybe he was lazy. But the art is sloppy.
Then again, he's a doujin writer, so *shruggs*
Oh no, he is lazy, whenever he can cut corners, he does, but that doesn't make the making of the art any less difficult or time consuming. And that doesn't mean his art isn't great. His facial expressions are beyond comparison.

Quote:
Taking pictures... Am I the only one that had a Tomitake=Ryuukishi07 theory when read that? I can see the guy taking shots of that Hinamizawa IRL and talking with the villagers.
Not improbable at all.

Quote:
2) Even if you deny me the right to be human, an argument cannot be undone but by reasoning. I could be a flying monkey, but more important I'm a flying monkey with a point. Your checkmate is overruled. Failure to aknowledge that will result in a headbutt to the face delivered by Will.
No life form other than humans can participate in this game.

And since you're not a person, you have no human rights either, so nothing obligates me to acknowledge a monkey and argue with it on an even level. *cacklecackleCacklecackleCackle*

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Bern seems to think he's capable of being an accomplice. Why would she think that? Just for the shits of it?

Besides, we don't know that's actually OOC for Battler. Oh, sure, it's out of character for the Battler character we're familiar with, but that doesn't mean anything. He's a character, just like Kanon. His personality is a fictional construct. It may be based on real information, but we don't have enough of that real information ourselves to guess how accurate the portrayal actually was.
I don't think Ryukishi would think of his characters and then portray them in a different way in the forgeries just for the hell of it. Technically speaking, it may be unrealistic, but then again Umineko never was realistic to begin with.

And after all, the message bottle universe was the only one we ever got to read in the first place, and I think we have a pretty clear image of the Battler in that.

Quote:
How can we really know Black Battler isn't a closer portrayal of Battler-Prime than Message Bottle Battler? We know almost nothing about Battler-Prime to say.
We can't. But common sense says we do know. Black Battler doesn't even act like a real person, rather, he himself acts like the theoritical being he is.
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Old 2012-08-28, 12:14   Link #30225
Patchwork Chimera
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Bern seems to think he's capable of being an accomplice. Why would she think that? Just for the shits of it?

Besides, we don't know that's actually OOC for Battler. Oh, sure, it's out of character for the Battler character we're familiar with, but that doesn't mean anything. He's a character, just like Kanon. His personality is a fictional construct. It may be based on real information, but we don't have enough of that real information ourselves to guess how accurate the portrayal actually was.
-Because... Bernkastel is trying to find the worst kakera for Ange? That's why such a scene were Ange's parents are complete lunatics killing everyone was shown. It has already been clued enough that Battler was not the culprit, so an accomplice is the next worst thing. She's throwing around the slimest possibilities as long as they hurt Ange (the only survivor) and anyone who might care.

-I think is something about the fair play. Wasn't Ryuukishi saying since the begining that not presenting clues and then trying to put an answer out-of-the-blue is cheating and he wouldn't do it? One can say a lot about Ryu's troll behaviour, but he GAVE us all the clues. You know, 'It's forbidden to present a puzzle without giving the player all the pieces' is practically red in his game, TIPS and interviews. If we don't aknowledge at least that the clues were presented, it's better to step back and not bother. Otherwise crack theories will be absolutely valid.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's possible Battler-Prime had a motive. But there's no evidence for one. That he lacks motive and inclination in his story form is not evidence that he didn't have any, but no positive evidence exists to suggest otherwise. Yet the author of the work pushes forward a notion that, based solely on what we know about the original character, doesn't appear to make sense.
It's possible, but with not a single clue about that is just unfair to think of it as viable. Or, put in other way, a complete asspull.
The author put also a lot of the goats sprouting nonsense in EP8. And, I repeat, evil-Battler is a call out to the fans that insist in throw around 'Battler culprit theories', followed by a similar line to the one that Bernkastel threw in Tanabata Tip ("It's because you like them that kakera with tragedies like this are created."). So, let's say, the fandom is rabid about 'George as culprit theory'. Black George is coming to town for that. (I actually see George as more possible culprit that Battler...)

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
How can we really know Black Battler isn't a closer portrayal of Battler-Prime than Message Bottle Battler? We know almost nothing about Battler-Prime to say.
It seems like "just happening upon" Battler himself would be by far the biggest coincidence and that coincidence is made far less so if it was only the encounter that was coincidental and not the specific individual encountered. If you're going to make arguments about probability, perhaps you should actually consider the likelihood of all such events.
It's a far away tip of the nature of Kakera. There's a lot of possible truths and possible culprits, so there's a lot of kakera. Blattler culprit was created almost suddenly by the accumulation of people insisting in that as one truth.
Saying that it's valid because it was shown somewhere will make next thing we say that Kinzo and Natsuhi were really having sex, because even if it hasn't been clued and already jossed by several statements, it was an in-game theory and Bern said it, so who cares? Adultery is so Kinzo's MO, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
1) Oh no, he is lazy, whenever he can cut corners, he does, but that doesn't make the making of the art any less difficult or time consuming. And that doesn't mean his art isn't great. His facial expressions are beyond comparison.

2) No life form other than humans can participate in this game.
And since you're not a person, you have no human rights either, so nothing obligates me to acknowledge a monkey and argue with it on an even level. *cacklecackleCacklecackleCackle*

3) I don't think Ryukishi would think of his characters and then portray them in a different way in the forgeries just for the hell of it. Technically speaking, it may be unrealistic, but then again Umineko never was realistic to begin with.

And after all, the message bottle universe was the only one we ever got to read in the first place, and I think we have a pretty clear image of the Battler in that.

We can't. But common sense says we do know. Black Battler doesn't even act like a real person, rather, he himself acts like the theoritical being he is.
1) Okay. Just because trollbeato is awesome I'll let it pass. His art is adequate. Not good mind you

2) 'It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard'. Mind you, it doesn't say anything about the obsever being limited to be human
Besides, that means that you're arguing and losing with a flying monkey. That's just so lame of you, Capitain, running away of a confrontation with the old and clichèd 'You're not worthy'. Let it be known that it's a coward's move. And an answer has not been provided by you, so intellectually, you're even behind me. Running away or not *ahaha.wav*

3) I agree there. Forgeries are OOC moments with some clues buried in between. Next you know, we'll be supporting Ronobato and Hanyuu-knows-what other nonsense, because Ronove said it.
Black Battler represents 'mad chinaman with no basis whatsoever Theory' as a character.


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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
@Patchwork Chimera - welcome to Goat Land, and congrats on finishing the series!

In general, again, I mean, about these hair colors ... as others have said, the humans all have black hair, EVEN ERIKA, and they only have wild anime hair for visual aesthetics and lol-tropes.

Firstly, we consider that Beatrice's anglo-features (blue eyes, blonde hair) are SO plot relevant the narration almost never shuts up about it until Chiru, and we get nothin' on the family members. If they had those colors for real, they would at least have been MENTIONED, or NOTED, as unusual for a Japanese. I mean, we even get a discussion about the western style bathrooms, and Castiglioni joking about Japanese hair being dyed with soy sauce ... to an apparently white haired Kinzo..?! Come on, now.

Erika likely has plain old black hair, also - Bern's comment about their blue hair is almost certainly because she is aware that she's in a narrative (the one we ourselves are reading) and she has blue hair in it. I highly doubt that a mysterious 19th person who drifted to Rokkenjima, a super detective with bright blue ass hair, would only be noted for, physically, "being a bit shorter than Jessica."

Alsooo, I'm pretty sure that her chopsticks craze was just a very Mary Sue type-quirk to add charm and a window for some genuine comedy when she was first having dinner with the family. It was a chance for her to be a perfect charming pigtail wearing, short-skirt-having, more-desu housegest. Y'know, before the bitch started sawing off heads with kitchen knives.
Thanks man. Personally I felt like some kind of accomplishment. Reading all that long novels, then analizing all the tips and writing down my theories took a lot of time.

You're right about the hair color. It's like a tradition in that media.

Well, I put the choptsticks thing just to prove a point: that we can discuss anything as long as it can pottentially have a deeper meaning. Even if it's nonsensical.
Bet Ryu07 made Erika all Mary sueish to put the detective in the 'really hated' list, and effectively protect the witch side giving it supporters (even if it's just to punch Erika's face). I was personally more concerned with Battler kicking Erika that with anti-mistery scoring a point.
Ryu roots for magic, as EP8 confirms XD

I always find that Erika cutting heads as nonsense, but it works for the game so *shruggs*. I can say she spent at least three hours beheading five persons with a kitchen knive and extreme care of not staining her dress. Also, isn't just cool how Erika is always related to some kind of boat? I'm thinking about trick ending here.
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-08-28 at 12:38.
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Old 2012-08-28, 14:12   Link #30226
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Quote:
You haven't seen Sailor Moon live action.
Lol, everyone has black hair in live action Sailor Moon when they're not in their Sailor forms, Jan-Poo. Meaning that the hair cange is entirely stylistic in order to maintain the iconic, decades-recognizeable look.

Quote:
Plus, Ange's memories of Battler do seem to match with his character in the message bottles.
Do they, really? She only ever mentions the one memory, which she clearly put on a romanticized pedestal given how much she clings to those hairclips.

Quote:
I personally think that Black Battler was created only so that they could make a Battler clone in Ougon.
Black Battler was created before Ougon. He appears in an Extra TIPS.
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Old 2012-08-28, 14:27   Link #30227
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Everyone who tells us anything about Battler adores and idealizes him (Yasu/Ange), or is operating off information derived from those people (Tohya/Ikuko). We don't get Eva's opinion (although we could have, apparently), and we don't have access to extracanonical information that residents of Prime would have. Bear in mind, if the Goats actually wanted to learn more about Battler-Prime from people who knew him, they could do so but we cannot. So in that sense it might be a bit unfair to be as critical of the Goats as we are, because we don't actually know how much more information they have than we do.

Would that information confirm the message bottle stories' portrayal of Battler? If it doesn't, we didn't hear anything about it. Although I do rather like the idea that Battler looks physically nothing like he's portrayed. I'm sure Yasu wanted him to be big and strong... but Ange doesn't really suggest he looks any different, so at least that detail is probably accurate or somebody would've called foul on it. At least, we'd think so.
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Old 2012-08-28, 14:34   Link #30228
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
1) Okay. Just because trollbeato is awesome I'll let it pass. His art is adequate. Not good mind you
Well, that has to do with the person's taste, so it's not something we can argue about, is it?

By the way, trollbeato IS why Battler fell in love with her and was willing to forgive her for parading him around naked on a leash.

Quote:
2) 'It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard'. Mind you, it doesn't say anything about the obsever being limited to be human
Besides, that means that you're arguing and losing with a flying monkey. That's just so lame of you, Capitain, running away of a confrontation with the old and clichèd 'You're not worthy'. Let it be known that it's a coward's move. And an answer has not been provided by you, so intellectually, you're even behind me. Running away or not *ahaha.wav*
Okay, since my pride as a captain is at stake here, I'll do you the honor to respond. I'll make you regret ever bringing the decalogue up.

FIRST: Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that have not been PRESENTED!


Present at least one hint that was mentioned within the narrative that Bern's hair is not blue but any other color.

SECOND: Knox's 10th: It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves without any clues.

Bernkastel cleary says to Erika: 'My double who has the same blue hair as me'. If Bernkastel's hair isn't blue, she is trying to disguise herself! Where was that hinted within the eight Episodes of Umineko?

(P.S. I feel really silly...)

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Do they, really? She only ever mentions the one memory, which she clearly put on a romanticized pedestal given how much she clings to those hairclips.
About that, I was speaking about the way Battler is portrayed in Ange's memories in the manga. Yeah, the original doesn't imply it so strongly.

But then again, wouldn't Ange show any signs of surprise at an unfamiliar Meta Battler?

But then again, she was also a Meta existence.

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Black Battler was created before Ougon. He appears in an Extra TIPS.
No he wasn't. Umineko Hane in which he appears was released in the same Comicket as Ougon, (and I think was given for free to those purchasing both Higanbana and Ougon).

I really don't see the reason of adding an Extra TIP right after the story has ended (that and Jessica's Killer Electric Fan too), that's why I say he had no other purpose but to be a clone in Ougon.
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Old 2012-08-28, 15:52   Link #30229
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Personally, I love Ryukishi's art, I even like it better than some more proffesional visual novels, and a lot more than the ugly PS3 art, but I think I'm the only person in the world who does.
I don't think that Ryukishi is a technically good artist, and I do think that the PS3 art is good, but I definitely prefer Ryukishi's art when playing the games. The expressions he draws are far better than the PS3 versions. They convey so much more information and emotion. Particularly for Beatrice's sprites, I think.
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Old 2012-08-28, 16:11   Link #30230
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A question: What's the interpretation/theory about Lambda's "real world vessel"? Pretty much every meta character has one (Bern as Ikuko's cat, Jungfrau as personifications of Knox Decalogue and Will as Van Dine's), but Lambda's is never stated.

My personal theory is that "Lambdadelta" is the name of Bernkastel's favorite toy doll (probably candy scented that Bern loves to bite) :P

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No he wasn't. Umineko Hane in which he appears was released in the same Comicket as Ougon, (and I think was given for free to those purchasing both Higanbana and Ougon).

I really don't see the reason of adding an Extra TIP right after the story has ended (that and Jessica's Killer Electric Fan too), that's why I say he had no other purpose but to be a clone in Ougon.
Umineko Hane is a collection of already written TIPS in VN format. Forgery n.XXX was written BEFORE Umineko Hane and just adaptated in visual format.
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Old 2012-08-28, 16:34   Link #30231
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I don't think that Ryukishi is a technically good artist, and I do think that the PS3 art is good, but I definitely prefer Ryukishi's art when playing the games. The expressions he draws are far better than the PS3 versions. They convey so much more information and emotion. Particularly for Beatrice's sprites, I think.
I'm not sure what the word technically means here, but I for one think his art is just not what people are used to, and that's why they react so badly. I fell in love with Higurashi's art immediately, well, in Umineko I was a bit 'yuck' because I had just come from the anime, but once it grew on me I came to appreciate it.

The PS3 art is retarted. I love their lineart, I love their colors, but their body postures and facial expresisons are completely retarted. It's more proffesional than Ryukishi's, but in no way better, plus it doesn't have Umineko's taste. Try comparing Maria's trollface in the PS3 and the original. Dissillusioned?

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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
A question: What's the interpretation/theory about Lambda's "real world vessel"? Pretty much every meta character has one (Bern as Ikuko's cat, Jungfrau as personifications of Knox Decalogue and Will as Van Dine's), but Lambda's is never stated.
I don't think Bernkastel's vessel is the cat, to be honest. The cat is made after Bernkastel, not the opposite. Lambda and Bern are supposed to be higher level witches from another plane, after all.

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Umineko Hane is a collection of already written TIPS in VN format. Forgery n.XXX was written BEFORE Umineko Hane and just adaptated in visual format.
Are you sure you're not confusing it with Tsubasa? Either way, Forgery n.XXX was written after EP8, because it mention's Bern's game, so it all boils down to the same thing, what purpose does Black Battler serve?

Though having said that, it's not like I didn't enjoy reading it, it just seems kinda cheap in regard to Ougon.
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Old 2012-08-28, 19:10   Link #30232
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Are you sure you're not confusing it with Tsubasa? Either way, Forgery n.XXX was written after EP8, because it mention's Bern's game, so it all boils down to the same thing, what purpose does Black Battler serve?

Though having said that, it's not like I didn't enjoy reading it, it just seems kinda cheap in regard to Ougon.
I'm 1000000000000000000000000000% sure I have read Forgery n.XXX in the Umineko wiki BEFORE Ougon Cross was released.

I just went and checked: Forgery n.XXX was published in Umineko's wiki in July 2011 and Umineko Hane was released alongside Ougon Cross in december 2011.
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Old 2012-08-28, 19:15   Link #30233
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I'm not sure what the word technically means here, but I for one think his art is just not what people are used to, and that's why they react so badly. I fell in love with Higurashi's art immediately, well, in Umineko I was a bit 'yuck' because I had just come from the anime, but once it grew on me I came to appreciate it.

The PS3 art is retarted. I love their lineart, I love their colors, but their body postures and facial expresisons are completely retarted. It's more proffesional than Ryukishi's, but in no way better, plus it doesn't have Umineko's taste. Try comparing Maria's trollface in the PS3 and the original. Dissillusioned?
Technically? I suppose that would mean what Ryukishi means when he himself says that he's got no talent as an artist. His art is the sort which would never be good enough for professional manga, the sort where for his VNs many people complain about his art being bad and say they wish they had the PS3 editions. Some of that will be because it's not what people are used to from professional art.

But I'm not particularly disillusioned, no, since I already didn't think the expressions in the PS3 versions were as good as Ryukishi's. Maria's PS3 trollface is definitely lacking in expression.

What the PS3 art is lacking is nuance. I don't hate the PS3 art. I haven't seen all of it since I haven't played that version, but quite a few of the pictures I've seen have been nice, and polished and professional. It probably varies a bit by character. I think that, for example, Dlanor's PS3 sprites look great. But none of the PS3 sprites can equal Ryukishi's work when it comes to expressiveness. And, the VNs are written in such a way that expressiveness really matters. I've just taken a look at more of Beato's PS3 sprites, and they are very disappointing. Most of the sprites where she's required to have her mouth open look really bad, as if the mouth just got slapped onto her face, and the trollfaces I mentioned before are really lacking - they look scary in a jack-o-lantern sort of way, but IMO they fail to convey what they need to.
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Old 2012-08-28, 19:15   Link #30234
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what purpose does Black Battler serve?
To satirize what an evil culprit Battler would be like, which turns out to be a generic evil villain with no emotional drive. It's very similar to how he portrayed Kyrie and Rudolf in Episode 7's tea party.

That doesn't mean ryukishi couldn't have planned for him to be in the fighting game at the time he wrote it also, but there's not really much evidence for that. And why couldn't B.Battler be created for both reasons?
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Old 2012-08-28, 19:41   Link #30235
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Quote:
No he wasn't. Umineko Hane in which he appears was released in the same Comicket as Ougon, (and I think was given for free to those purchasing both Higanbana and Ougon).
Yes, but Forgery No.XXX, which was adapted into Umineko Hane later, came out almost a half year earlier.

Quote:
what purpose does Black Battler serve?
He's the exact same sort of existence as Eva-Beatrice. I would argue that both of that are shapes of the same metaphorical Black Witch; the perceived ugly invisioning of people; the opposite of the sugarcoating fantasies Maria believed in.

And since Battler Culprit Theory became EXTREMELY popular in Japan since EP6 onward, I think it's perfectly natural for Ryukishi to acknowledge the theory; perhaps Black Battler's over the top nature is a sly form of trying to discredit it.
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Old 2012-08-29, 02:46   Link #30236
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And since Battler Culprit Theory became EXTREMELY popular in Japan since EP6 onward
What was it about ep 6 that made Japan decide to completely ignore his innocent reds?
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Old 2012-08-29, 05:26   Link #30237
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Technically? I suppose that would mean what Ryukishi means when he himself says that he's got no talent as an artist. His art is the sort which would never be good enough for professional manga, the sort where for his VNs many people complain about his art being bad and say they wish they had the PS3 editions. Some of that will be because it's not what people are used to from professional art.
Yeah, he's not really good in that respect. (Am I crazy for wanting to see huge-hands CGs drawn by him???)

Quote:
But I'm not particularly disillusioned, no, since I already didn't think the expressions in the PS3 versions were as good as Ryukishi's. Maria's PS3 trollface is definitely lacking in expression.
It's like she's autistic or something. Well, but I don't compain since the PS3 sprites of Bern are simply gorgeous (as long as she doesn't do the laugh, Alchemist doesn't have a good chemistry with trollfaces).

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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
I'm 1000000000000000000000000000% sure I have read Forgery n.XXX in the Umineko wiki BEFORE Ougon Cross was released.

I just went and checked: Forgery n.XXX was published in Umineko's wiki in July 2011 and Umineko Hane was released alongside Ougon Cross in december 2011.
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yes, but Forgery No.XXX, which was adapted into Umineko Hane later, came out almost a half year earlier.
Oh, then my facts are wrong, sorry.

Quote:
He's the exact same sort of existence as Eva-Beatrice. I would argue that both of that are shapes of the same metaphorical Black Witch; the perceived ugly invisioning of people; the opposite of the sugarcoating fantasies Maria believed in.

And since Battler Culprit Theory became EXTREMELY popular in Japan since EP6 onward, I think it's perfectly natural for Ryukishi to acknowledge the theory; perhaps Black Battler's over the top nature is a sly form of trying to discredit it.
I meant what purpose does he serven within the narrative of Umineko itself. None. I never really was a fan of Extra TIPS anyway. If you wanna say something, say it within the story. You've got 8 long EPs, damn it. That's plenty of room for many ideas.

P.S: The Battler Culprit theory? Really? Even with the EP5 reds that Battler is innocent. Battler didn't kill anyone? People sure have a twisted imagination.
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Old 2012-08-29, 05:52   Link #30238
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Yasu didn't do that, unless you assume that Yasu=Ikuko to begin with, and then that becomes circular logic.
Who cares if it's circular. Everything has to rest on some kind of circular logic. In most stories we'd have the luxury of assuming everything we are presented, at least, to be true. In Umineko we don't. I'd say what we should be looking for is the most "elegant" circle that balances both theme and plausibility.

That being said, I really appreciate Patchwork's thematic argument against my Touya=random theory, although I'm not sure I understand it fully.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think being an exceptional speedreader is the most relevant part.
Where was it said Battler was a speed-reader? You mean this part from EP5?

Spoiler:
In EP5 in particular Battler did a complete 180 in the competence department, so I tend to view the authenticity of his depiction in EP5 skeptically. From the standpoint of my theory it is pretty easy to imagine that Battler never was a speed reader but because Touya was a speed reader "Battler" in the stories became one, too.

Plus Battler was being sarcastic anyway. Even if Touya and Battler are the same person I would still take this comment of Battler's with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You're assuming that she's Yasu
If Touya isn't Battler, and Ikuko isn't Yasu, then where's all the information to write the forgeries coming from?

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Maybe because, in the great scheme of things, the REAL Battler was unknown even to the authors in all the levels of narration. Even to himself! It was an ideal to Yasu, the old personality of an amnesiac to Ikuko, and a lost personality to Tohya. Aside of some important clues about the murder case, nobody really knew Battler. And Ange last saw him 12 years ago
Well, Touya claimed that he clearly remembered everything about Battler's life before the Rokkenjima incident. IIRC correctly, in order to prove it to Yukari he mentioned how she still had those hair ornaments she got from Battler, and how she used to hate... peppers, was it? And that was enough to convince Yukari (though I personally would want a bit more than that). He also claimed that for some reason he couldn't remember the days of the Rokkenjima incident clearly.

Of course he could be lying about any of this. I especially suspect the part about him not remembering the incident clearly, because if (assuming he really is Battler) something really awful happened that day that he didn't want Yukari to know about then of course he'd hide it.

In any case, assuming Touya really is Battler, it seems probable that Touya knew Battler's past very well and should be able to write about it. Yet whoever is writing these stories (besides maybe EP5) seems to know a lot more about Yasu than they know about Battler. Heck they even seem to know a hell of a lot more about Maria than about Battler.

All other things being equal, Yasu seems to be a more likely author of Banquet and Alliance than Battler. Actually, Eva seems to be the most likely author of Banquet if not for Ange saying in EP6 that "Itouikukuro Reigonamu" wrote it.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-08-29 at 06:58.
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Old 2012-08-29, 06:24   Link #30239
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It's like she's autistic or something
Well, according the narration she was sort of meant to be. I seem to remember her being described as always showing the same sour expression.
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Old 2012-08-29, 06:29   Link #30240
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If Touya isn't Battler, and Ikuko isn't Yasu, then where's all the information to write the forgeries coming from?
It doesn't need to be real information. Forgeries are forgeries. Fictions. There is no guarantee how close to the truth they are.
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