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Old 2012-08-28, 05:17   Link #1
Cream
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Smoking weed with the president- A movement


To put it short, a song about why marijuana should be legalized. Pulls out facts and replies to phrases grabbed from Obama's campaign.

I'm not saying this should be debated here but i think this should be seen by everyone.

Please give it a full listen before denying or putting the video down, thanks.
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Old 2012-08-28, 11:42   Link #2
kyp275
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good lord, that was entirely way too long.

I support legalizing marijuana, but this song did not make that great of an argument for it, nor was it all that good of a song for that matter >_>;;
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Old 2012-08-28, 18:56   Link #3
LeoXiao
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* Cue faceless conservative using this as fuel against Obama.
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Old 2012-08-28, 20:59   Link #4
Urzu 7
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I'm under the impression that most people who want it legalized like to get high sometimes, as in, biased standpoint.

I'm not for legalizing weed. Maybe it'll work out okay. Maybe it won't work out good. Don't wanna take that chance. Once we legalize it, there will probably be no going back. Remember when we tried to outlaw alcohol? And I don't like hearing people say it isn't a gateway drug because I really doubt that. I had two close friends in high school start with weed and then were doing and dealing coke a couple years outta high school and I had a next door neighbor who went from doing some weed to a lot of weed to doing oxycontin, derailing his life and eventually bringing him to rehab (and it could have easily turned out worse). On top of this, I knew many students in my high school and in my town that started with weed first and it led them to try hard drugs and led them to abuse pills.

People can go ahead and debate all that and make a case for legalizing weed; okay, fine. I'm just saying, if we legalize it and it doesn't turn out just fine and it turns out bad or very bad, well then, the 'legalize it' crowd would have fucked up and we will have a very hard time reversing things.

Plus, if we legalize weed, it'll probably mean even more teens end up smoking weed (illegally; they will probably set the legal age to 21), and teens smoking weed is pretty bad for many reasons, especially because of the study that just came out that revealed that teens who smoked weed often had their IQs drop some digits; compared to teens who didn't smoke weed, who didn't have a decrease in their IQ in their adult years.

Article on the study: http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...-decline-in-iq
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Old 2012-08-28, 21:49   Link #5
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Why legalise it? People have total access to it then especially kids. Also isn't doing weed and driving a car as bad as drink-driving? People do it and have been caught, so why facilitate that behaviour by making it legal.
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Old 2012-08-28, 21:55   Link #6
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Weed is no worse than alcohol and we really don't want to have to overtax our justice system over a bunch of people most of whom are just normal dudes smoking a joint every so often.
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Old 2012-08-28, 22:17   Link #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigress View Post
Why legalise it? People have total access to it then especially kids. Also isn't doing weed and driving a car as bad as drink-driving? People do it and have been caught, so why facilitate that behaviour by making it legal.
Cause they don't now right...
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying we should legalize it. It is already everywhere and for a lot of high schoolers or "kids", the substance is easier to obtain then alcohol, where I live at least. People just want to be able to light up without worrying about the cops on their asses. To me there isn't really a point to legalize it for recreational purposes. Where I live you can just pay a doctor to write you a prescription for some "injury" you have. Afterwards you can just use it for "medicinal purposes". Boom bam, problem solved. Legalizing it would just create unnecessary tension, in my opinion.
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Old 2012-08-28, 22:53   Link #8
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I'm under the impression that most people who want it legalized like to get high sometimes, as in, biased standpoint.
Probably true for most supporters. I can tell you that I don't use marijuana, never have, and don't intend to (the same goes for other mind-altering drugs), but I think it should be legalized.

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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I'm not for legalizing weed. Maybe it'll work out okay. Maybe it won't work out good. Don't wanna take that chance. Once we legalize it, there will probably be no going back. Remember when we tried to outlaw alcohol?
The Prohibition taught some valuable lessons that are very much applicable today. What happened when alcohol was banned? Liquor stores closed up and overall alcohol consumption probably declined (I don't have data on that point, but it stands to reason). However, something happened in response. Gangs began to produce their own alcohol, and they sold it on the black market. Money that was originally going to "legitimate businesses" began to flow toward the gangs. If you look at the data from around that time, you'll see that crime began to increase; supposedly this is because the gangs were receiving huge amounts of cash from alcohol, and they were able to expand into other criminal ventures with it. To combat the crime, money spent on police began to increase.
When the Prohibition was ended, the source of money that had been fueling the gangs disappeared.

Does that sound familiar? Take a look at how powerful the drug cartels in Mexico have become. They've gained such influence and power that they routinely challenge the Mexican government, and have completely taken over some towns. Legalize marijuana and it will weaken them and other criminal enterprises that cash in on the underground sales.

What it ultimately comes down to is the fact that we can't control people. People are going to smoke marijuana regardless of the legality or penalties. I say we make the best of that situation: legalize it to divert money away from criminal organizations, tax it, and use the taxes for things like drug education and social support programs for addicts.

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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
And I don't like hearing people say it isn't a gateway drug because I really doubt that. I had two close friends in high school start with weed and then were doing and dealing coke a couple years outta high school and I had a next door neighbor who went from doing some weed to a lot of weed to doing oxycontin, derailing his life and eventually bringing him to rehab (and it could have easily turned out worse). On top of this, I knew many students in my high school and in my town that started with weed first and it led them to try hard drugs and led them to abuse pills.
Marijuana (and cigarettes) can certainly be gateway drugs, but I think we need to ask ourselves why they're gateway drugs. To make my point, I'd like to make a comparison to something interesting and slightly unrelated: binge drinking.

Binge drinking is a problem in America (particularly among the college crowd), yet by the numbers, it's not much a problem in Europe. Why? How come Europeans use alcohol responsibly, while Americans don't? One theory has to do with the drinking age and alcohol laws. In most (if not all?) European countries, the drinking age is lower and it's not quite frowned upon for a young adult to enjoy alcoholic beverages. They drink with their families, learning responsible consumption from them... but more importantly, the "taboo" factor is removed. They drank alcohol and can drink it whenever they want - who cares? But in America, young adults go off to college, and it's their first time drinking more than a few sips. Further, they're breaking the law. That's taboo, and it's reckless. Combined with their lack of learned responsible usage, it leads to reckless usage and behavior.

How does that relate to drugs? When one smokes marijuana today, they're doing multiple things. They're using a substance, but more importantly, they are breaking the law and doing something risky. Other drugs are also illegal, but now that they're lawbreakers, that doesn't matter. Without any social support network to encourage responsible usage (and combined with a youthful attitude of recklessness), they advance to the harder, more dangerous drugs.

If marijuana were legalized, some people would undoubtedly still advance to harder drugs. Yet many would respect the distinction between marijuana - a legal, socially accepted substance - and harder drugs, which would be illegal and dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
People can go ahead and debate all that and make a case for legalizing weed; okay, fine. I'm just saying, if we legalize it and it doesn't turn out just fine and it turns out bad or very bad, well then, the 'legalize it' crowd would have fucked up and we will have a very hard time reversing things.
Is the situation anywhere near perfect now? We have massive criminal enterprises building in part thanks to sales of illegal marijuana, and we have huge portions of our population incarcerated over marijuana usage and sales. Society didn't become a bunch of drunks just because alcohol was legalized; what's the worst that could realistically happen, and is it really worse than where we are currently?

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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Plus, if we legalize weed, it'll probably mean even more teens end up smoking weed (illegally; they will probably set the legal age to 21), and teens smoking weed is pretty bad for many reasons, especially because of the study that just came out that revealed that teens who smoked weed often had their IQs drop some digits; compared to teens who didn't smoke weed, who didn't have a decrease in their IQ in their adult years.
Many of these people are smoking it anyway. It seems we have a rough choice: we can have people smoking and "dropping IQ points" (didn't read the article, so I don't agree or disagree with its assertion), while branding themselves as lawbreakers and being thrown in prison; or we can have people smoking and "dropping IQ points" and... that's it. There's no perfect option, but which of those two seems more desirable?

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Originally Posted by Tigress View Post
Why legalise it? People have total access to it then especially kids. Also isn't doing weed and driving a car as bad as drink-driving? People do it and have been caught, so why facilitate that behaviour by making it legal.
The problem is that people are already using the substances. Making it illegal hasn't controlled people's behavior, and it seems impossible to eradicate it from society. As I wrote to Urzu 7, there's no perfect solution, but we have to admit that what we're doing isn't working, and we're arguably creating problems in the process (criminal enterprises that benefit from illegal marijuana sales; our growing prison population). Try as we might, we can't control people. Wouldn't it be better to change our approach?
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Old 2012-08-28, 23:09   Link #9
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I don't smoke weed but I see nothing wrong with it. Not like weed itself kills anyone. Keeping it illegal profits shady figures who charge much higher than it's worth and kill people so they can sell it illegally. All for the big green. That and many are being thrown in prison over this.
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Old 2012-08-28, 23:40   Link #10
Urzu 7
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Ledgem: You made several good points. It just seems like we are in between a rock and hard place with the decision of whether to legalize weed or not. But yeah, would giving Americans the green light on weed be a good thing? Can Americans, generally speaking, handle it? It is like drinking alcohol with Europeans vs. Americans. It just seems like the Europeans handle it all better than Americans (not talking about individuals, talking about societies on the whole)?
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Old 2012-08-29, 00:59   Link #11
SoldierOfDarkness
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There are good points but there's something that people dont' seem to realize.

Everybody is different. Just because it works in one doesn't mean it would necessarily work for the other.

Generally speaking, many countries became powerful through democracy and such. Many countries tried doing the same thing but ended getting screwed. China for example became powerful by not following democracy. Why? Because the culture and people are different (And no I am not going to get into an argument about that, I was using it as an example)

Opium was a drug that the English forced upon the Chinese and this resulted in mass addictions and loss of money and even led to 2 wars. When Opium started to spread to the US and other places the governments there immediately clamped down on it before it got out of control are were successful in dealing with it.

Why are the drug cartels super powerful in Mexico but the same has not been seen in other countries around the world? Some areas have even more severe punishments than what the US dishes out.

I recall being in Amsterdam where you could easily go and get yourself high with cannabis but after many years the people are fed up with it to the point that they are now closing those shops down (not all for the record). Stuff like the Red Light district simply wasn't working because the criminals adapted and took advantage of those things.

IMO being proactive and working with the kids to keep them from going to drugs in the first place would be a lot more effective. That and doing a better job in rehabilitation by getting people that are addicted to drugs off of them. IMO governments would rather deal with the after results instead of focusing on dealing with it before it becomes a problem. Wouldn't solve it completely but it could help minimize it.

I don't drink or do drugs because my parents raised me well and my teachers acted as good role models.
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Old 2012-08-29, 02:52   Link #12
Irenicus
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This is a much better argument for the legalization of drugs.


Gentlemen, you owe this to Lucy. XD

Word has it that it gets even better with some Lucy of your own, but I've never tried and probably never will. I'm already rather too light, don't wanna fly off like a kite.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness
Why are the drug cartels super powerful in Mexico but the same has not been seen in other countries around the world?
The weakness and corruption of the Mexican government, the massive affluence of the United States and therefore its drug market, and yes, the dearth of legal access to recreational drugs in said market.

Quote:
IMO being proactive and working with the kids to keep them from going to drugs in the first place would be a lot more effective.
They've been trying for decades. Many "proactive" programs in the US, some quite successful, or at least they say they are.

The famous D.A.R.E. is apparently full of lies though. Some kids notice the bullshit, gets miffed, take to the other side. Go too far the other way, become addicts, whoops.

In any case, the argument for legalization is, except for the radicals, generally accompanied by argument in favor of an increase in social support apparatus; something like the Portuguese case, which accompanied legalization with just that. You still wouldn't be seeing Philip Morris (or whatever they call themselves now) advertising cannabis on prime time television, nor would it means free distribution. Such legalization generally functions as a "pressure valve outlet" rather than to entirely normalize the behavior, so college kids trying out a few joints for a phase wouldn't have to get busted and have their lives ruined/turned hardened criminals in the mighty hard criminal factory that is the US prison system.
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Old 2012-08-29, 03:18   Link #13
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Like most dangerous drugs (with medical purposes), marijuana should be labeled as controlled substance. It can't be bought without a yellow prescription and without a physicians consent.

Every drug/medicine has bad effects when misused. Control is the best way if it will be legalized. Only medical institutions can dispense them.
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Old 2012-08-29, 03:50   Link #14
Reckoner
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I'm personally of the opinion that it should be legal, but don't you try to kid me that marijuana is a completely harmless drug with no side affects whatsoever. It may not kill you like cigarettes, nor damage you as fast as alcohol, but mentally people just are not the same if they are active users. It definitely is a lifestyle changer.

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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Does that sound familiar? Take a look at how powerful the drug cartels in Mexico have become. They've gained such influence and power that they routinely challenge the Mexican government, and have completely taken over some towns. Legalize marijuana and it will weaken them and other criminal enterprises that cash in on the underground sales.
The power of the drug cartels stems more from cocaine and crystal meth than it does from marijuana. That's where the real drug money comes from.
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Old 2012-08-29, 10:44   Link #15
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
It is like drinking alcohol with Europeans vs. Americans. It just seems like the Europeans handle it all better than Americans (not talking about individuals, talking about societies on the whole)?
Sure, but WHY do the Europeans handle it better? It's not genetic or some inherent trait. As I said, I suspect that it's because they don't make a big deal out of it that they are more responsible. So why do we make such a big deal abut these things?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner
I'm personally of the opinion that it should be legal, but don't you try to kid me that marijuana is a completely harmless drug with no side affects whatsoever. It may not kill you like cigarettes, nor damage you as fast as alcohol, but mentally people just are not the same if they are active users. It definitely is a lifestyle changer.
So is anime in all seriousness, this is true to a degree, but what can we do about it? It's already illegal and we're already spending gobs of money to try and keep it out of society. We've been at this for many, many years now, and it isn't working. People are still acquiring it and using it. We can't stop them from doing it, so why not try a different approach? Legalize it, teach them about responsible usage, and create avenues for people who develop problems to seek help. As it stands, people are getting themselves into trouble over these laws, they're sending money to gangs and cartels, and if they develop a problem, they're in their own because society judges them harshly and would rather prosecute them than get them back on their feet. It's not productive.

Quote:
The power of the drug cartels stems more from cocaine and crystal meth than it does from marijuana. That's where the real drug money comes from.
I've never actually seen data about the certels' revenue sources. I find this believable, but do you know how much marijuana contributes to their funds?
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Old 2012-08-29, 15:26   Link #16
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I've never actually seen data about the certels' revenue sources. I find this believable, but do you know how much marijuana contributes to their funds?
Well the only way to be sure is to have a politican in Mexico legalize it and then see if the Gangs have him assassinated.
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Old 2012-08-29, 18:51   Link #17
Bri
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I recall being in Amsterdam where you could easily go and get yourself high with cannabis but after many years the people are fed up with it to the point that they are now closing those shops down (not all for the record). Stuff like the Red Light district simply wasn't working because the criminals adapted and took advantage of those things.
Central Amsterdam is a tourist freak-show, the tightening of rules in regard to coffee-shops and the red light district has more to do with noise and nuisance reduction for homeowners than an issue with cannabis. Some shops are closing down because they are not profitable in a legal setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Sure, but WHY do the Europeans handle it better? It's not genetic or some inherent trait. As I said, I suspect that it's because they don't make a big deal out of it that they are more responsible. So why do we make such a big deal abut these things?
There is no "Europeans" when it comes to drinking. The UK, Ireland and the Nordic countries have some major issues with binge drinking by youths and alcohol abuse has severely reduced male life expectancy in the Baltic states, parts of Eastern Europe and Russia.

Continental and Mediterranean Europe have a more culinary drinking culture but it's hard to point to any reason. The countries with alcohol issues in Europe tend have a more "dour* or *melancholic" cultural outlook but this could simply be coincidence.
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Old 2012-08-29, 18:54   Link #18
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There is no "Europeans" when it comes to drinking. The UK, Ireland and the Nordic countries have some major issues with binge drinking by youths and alcohol abuse has severely reduced male life expectancy in the Baltic states, parts of Eastern Europe and Russia.

Continental and Mediterranean Europe have a more culinary drinking culture but it's hard to point to any reason. The countries with alcohol issues in Europe tend have a more "dour* or *melancholic" cultural outlook but this could simply be coincidence.
Interesting - I don't doubt what you're saying, it means that what I heard was likely overly simplified. Do you know more about this? Do the countries that you mentioned have higher drinking age laws and/or a more conservative culture regarding alcohol?
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Old 2012-08-29, 19:02   Link #19
Urzu 7
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Sure, but WHY do the Europeans handle it better? It's not genetic or some inherent trait. As I said, I suspect that it's because they don't make a big deal out of it that they are more responsible. So why do we make such a big deal abut these things?
Certainly, it isn't from inherent traits or some such. It is about cultural differences. Thing is, how is America going to take on similar cultural elements? American culture is it's own thing and chock full of problems (we aren't going to get into other ones, just talking about drugs and alcohol). With American culture and American society, I'm pretty confident legalizing weed won't go over nearly as smooth as it did for Amsterdam. Plus, I'm thinking that it can be a lot different when you compare weed legalized in a small place like Amsterdam vs. weed legalized in America with over 300 million citizens. The greater scope and scale of America leads to a much more varied and complex place than Amsterdam, and I figure that would lead to more complications than what Amsterdam ever faced when they legalized weed. One reason why America has so many problems is because of how complex, convoluted, and complicated America has become.
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Old 2012-08-29, 19:18   Link #20
Ledgem
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Thing is, how is America going to take on similar cultural elements? American culture is it's own thing and chock full of problems (we aren't going to get into other ones, just talking about drugs and alcohol). With American culture and American society, I'm pretty confident legalizing weed won't go over nearly as smooth as it did for Amsterdam.
Quite right, American society probably won't respond in quite the same manner that other countries have or would. It could be worse, but it could also be better. Nobody really knows what would happen.

However, I think we need to ask ourselves what the worst-case scenario would be, and if it's realistic. Before I supported the legalization of marijuana, I used to think that everyone in society might start smoking all the time. Productivity would decline, people wouldn't take things seriously, and so on - those were my fears. I don't think those are realistic now, though.

A government study from 2010 indicated that there were 17.4 million people actively using marijuana (doesn't account for people with a history of usage who are not actively using, and they can't fudge the numbers to account for people who wouldn't admit to usage). While there's certain to be some total potheads in that group, when is the last time you heard of someone getting into an accident or failing in their job obligations because of marijuana usage? With that many people, there must be some examples; I just haven't heard of any. On the other hand, I've heard about people showing up drunk to work and getting fired, and about drunk driving accidents.

So how much of a threat would marijuana pose at its worst, realistically? More people might start to use it casually (although I'm sure that society's general attitude of frowning on its usage would remain)... but is that really such a terrible outcome? Is it worse than what we're doing now?

I suppose we don't have to do anything to change the current situation. We can keep spending money and police effort on the war on drugs, and we can keep throwing people in prison - it won't ever eradicate marijuana from society, and it seems like a pretty poor use of resources to me, but we don't have to change it. I just can't imagine a scenario that would arise from legalization that seems like it would put us in a worse situation.

Out of curiosity, what sort of worst-case scenarios are you thinking of?
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