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Old 2012-08-28, 22:22   Link #4201
Washu-Chan
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Determining the canon order of the CE shows, is this the "proper" order, with the newer works taking priority:
  • Primary: Seed (original/HD Remaster), Seed Destiny, GSD: Final Plus
  • Sub-Primary: The TV Movies
  • Secondary: The Astray mangas, Stargazer
  • Tertiary: The Suit CDs
  • Alternate canon: Manga adaptations of Seed and GSD, GSD: The Edge, various GS/GSD video games (including the Super Robot Wars games), Seed Character Theater
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Last edited by Washu-Chan; 2012-08-29 at 00:01.
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Old 2012-08-28, 22:26   Link #4202
Tak
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StarGazer was a side story to Destiny, but ended before the conclusion to Destiny. So it would have happened between DESTINY & FINAL PLUS.

Unless you were referring to the release dates...

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Old 2012-08-28, 22:45   Link #4203
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@Washu, you should bump up Final Plus, it's the canon version of the show's ending (even though it's even more FLAWLESS VICTORY)
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Old 2012-08-28, 23:02   Link #4204
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So, with SEED Remaster on the hot seat, what becomes of the old SEEDís canonity? Will they scrap it and make SEED Remaster "more canon"?
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Old 2012-08-28, 23:07   Link #4205
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Honestly, they havent changed too much in the REMASTER, not counting cameos like shinn and the perfect strike, so i doubt it'll change whats canon or not
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Old 2012-08-28, 23:23   Link #4206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
StarGazer was a side story to Destiny, but ended before the conclusion to Destiny. So it would have happened between DESTINY & FINAL PLUS.

Unless you were referring to the release dates...

- Tak
My definition of "primary canon" is if it's animated and, more importantly, had the involvement of Fukuda, Morosawa, or any of Seed/GSD's writing staff (script and/or storyboarding). The creators of Stargazer were on Seed/GSD's writing staff:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...me.php?id=6378

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
@Washu, you should bump up Final Plus, it's the canon version of the show's ending (even though it's even more FLAWLESS VICTORY)
That's why I listed Final Plus after GSD.

How does the Suit CDs fit into the canon?


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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Honestly, they havent changed too much in the REMASTER, not counting cameos like shinn and the perfect strike, so i doubt it'll change whats canon or not
Don't forget Greedo shooting first... I mean Nicol "suiciding" himself.
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Old 2012-08-28, 23:42   Link #4207
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Indeed, they seem to want Kira to come out of SEED with no blood on his hands. I wouldn't be surprised if they take away Shinn's family and Stella's deaths from Kira. I'm sure they'll find someway to place the blame on someone else or make them all suddenly become stupid and fall on Kira's beams on purpose.
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Old 2012-08-28, 23:49   Link #4208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Yeah...naahhh, Kira couldn't be, I mean he imagined Fllay instead of Lacus during that one scene!
I'm talking about why Kira was crying.

Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Washu-Chan View Post
Determining the canon order of the CE shows, is this the "proper" order, with the newer works taking priority:
  • Primary: Seed (original/HD Remaster), Seed Destiny, GSD: Final Plus, Stargazer
  • Sub-Primary: The TV Movies
  • Secondary: The Astray mangas
  • Tertiary: The Suit CDs
  • Alternate canon: Manga adaptations of Seed and GSD, GSD: The Edge, various GS/GSD video games (including the Super Robot Wars games)
If we include the Remaster, it's probably like this:

SEED:

1. HD Remaster
2. Special Editions/TV Movies compilation
3. Original TV series episodes, After Phase

Destiny:

1. Special Editions/TV Movies compilation
2. Final Plus
3. Original TV series episodes

Keep in mind that the ranking above for the two series probably only matters for actual conflicts, not just for added/removed scenes. Aside from actual conflicts, they should all be equally official.

Side stories like Stargazer, the Astray mangas/novels, Suit CDs are probably just as official, more so with Stargazer than the others. Although I don't know if the short Astray OVAs fit here.

Games and alternate adaptations of the SEED, Destiny, and/or Stargazer stories are most likely not official as far as their stories are concerned. Of course, this does not mean that the works themselves are not official.
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Old 2012-08-29, 00:59   Link #4209
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Thinking back... Had Lacus not stopped Kira he may have been able to save Fllay's father, she did delay him a great deal considering that they were already going into battle.

So if Lacus hadn't delayed Kira than Kira wouldn't have run into Fllay(Even if she didn't delay him anywhere near as long as Lacus did it was still a delay), the mechanic even tells Kira that he's late. By the time he gets to the Strike, Mwu had already launched and one of the battleships was sunk.

If Lacus had just stayed in her room than Kira may have been able to salvage at least the final battleship, but he was too late and by the time he arrived Athrun had already severely damaged the second battleship, which soon was sunk, and Mwu is soon forced to retreat since he was fighting alone for quite awhile and takes too much damage.

At least Fllay was smart when it came to using Lacus. Had the Archangel announced to ZAFT that they had Lacus than the battle would have ended immediately. So Murrue trying to keep Lacus out of the war because she was an innocent civie, despite who she is, ended up costing the lives of many good men and women and the sad thing is that they used Lacus later anyway, so the deaths of all those people were pointless.

Last edited by Destined_Fate; 2012-08-29 at 01:18.
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Old 2012-08-29, 01:40   Link #4210
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It doesn't matter when Kira arrives. He would still have to deal with Aegis, and the Federation ships would still be destroyed by ZAFT.
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Old 2012-08-29, 02:09   Link #4211
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Man, I feel as if I'm reliving a horrific nightmare and of course the ugly memories have come back with a harsh vengence.

For the debate that has been going on here, well I'd have to side with the supporters of Flay. I always felt that part of the reason why Kira and Lacus were brought back in Destiny was to address the horrifically botched job that occured in SEED and to perhaps justify the popularity of the two characters and the couple.

And I still think that Kira still loved Flay. Don't forget after breaking up with Flay, he had a near death experience and then also learned about the true origins. And then finally after Flay dies right before his eyes, he charges to engage Rau with rage in his eyes (to go to star wars, he goes to the dark side when trying ot engage Rau).

So to summarize between Lacus and Flay in relation to Kira, well here is part of a quote from Star Trek DS9: You know In some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."

Guess which is the Borg and which is the Federation. Although the Borg are well evil, they don't try to hide it.
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Old 2012-08-29, 08:09   Link #4212
monster
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Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen View Post
For the debate that has been going on here, well I'd have to side with the supporters of Flay. I always felt that part of the reason why Kira and Lacus were brought back in Destiny was to address the horrifically botched job that occured in SEED and to perhaps justify the popularity of the two characters and the couple.
Why would they need to justify a character's popularity? That doesn't make any sense.
Quote:
And I still think that Kira still loved Flay. Don't forget after breaking up with Flay, he had a near death experience and then also learned about the true origins. And then finally after Flay dies right before his eyes, he charges to engage Rau with rage in his eyes (to go to star wars, he goes to the dark side when trying ot engage Rau).
That still doesn't mean Kira still loved her romantically.
Quote:
So to summarize between Lacus and Flay in relation to Kira, well here is part of a quote from Star Trek DS9: You know In some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."

Guess which is the Borg and which is the Federation. Although the Borg are well evil, they don't try to hide it.
Considering planets have to petition to join the Federation, at least they made their own choice to be "assimilated" by the Federation. The Borg doesn't give you that choice.

And I'm not sure what this has to do with SEED.
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Old 2012-08-29, 08:14   Link #4213
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Of course Kira still loved Flay, that's why she had to die... So Lacus could get Kira.
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Old 2012-08-29, 08:40   Link #4214
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Of course Kira still loved Flay, that's why she had to die... So Lacus could get Kira.
My brain hurts.
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Old 2012-08-29, 08:42   Link #4215
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Quote:
The Truth hurts.
Fixed for you.
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Old 2012-08-29, 08:54   Link #4216
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
Fixed for you.
I don't want to get into this conversation (because I don't really have a strong opinion on this one), but didn't kira say something along the line of 'Let stop doing this' before his final battle in Strike? I thought that was obvious.

The Kira x Fllay relationship is actually very clear and well written.
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Old 2012-08-29, 09:15   Link #4217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
I don't want to get into this conversation (because I don't really have a strong opinion on this one), but didn't kira say something along the line of 'Let stop doing this' before his final battle? I thought that was obvious.

The Kira x Fley relationship is actually very clear and well written.
Apparently not...

There's nothing to suggest that Kira wanted anything else to do with Fllay other than to soothe his own guilt. Fllay was also a friend, which Kira also felt he needed to desperately protect all series long. I always felt that it was "Look Fllay, you had your chance, now move aside."

If only Fllay stayed in line while boarding the sub, she wouldn't be dead and we would no longer be wondering which gundam girl Kira would've ended up with.
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Old 2012-08-29, 09:23   Link #4218
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
Fixed for you.
It's not the truth, it's Flay supporters' refusal to accept the truth. (And I'm saying this as someone who prefers Kira to be with Flay over Lacus.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hero147 View Post
If only Fllay stayed in line while boarding the sub, she wouldn't be dead and we would no longer be wondering which gundam girl Kira would've ended up with.
That depends on where they're sending her. The excuse given was that the daughter of Minister Allster would be a good face to rally the troops. But where would she do that? If they ended up putting Flay in the Dominion or somewhere in battle, she may still end up dead.
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Old 2012-08-29, 11:25   Link #4219
Tak
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The relationship between Fllay and Kira progressed abnormally. At the end, it was overdone too much too quickly, leaving little to no room for redemption. Even while the relationship was in progress, Kira had exercised a good number of self-doubt regarding his role, and his doubt only intensified after he met Lacus, for he had his first good conversation probably in a long time. He was already wavering.

After all, what was holding that relationship together? Sex and nothing more.

And what did he do for Lacus? A lot of things he found himself not doing for Fllay, and despite what Fllay made him do. Kira actually went against it.

What did Kira really think of Fllay and vice-versa? We don't know, because they never bothered to in the series. Kira certainly realized he was engaged in something other than what he had expected, and wanted to end the relationship. We knew Fllay's reaction to that. Furthermore, what happened when Kira saw Fllay in his flashback during SEED? Fright.

But Kira felt he wasn't free of guilt, so he wanted to settle things straight with Fllay. Yet, settling a matter does not love make. I am sorry, but Kira had already made up his mind by then, and he sure wasn't going back to Fllay. Nonetheless, nobody can deny that they both been through thick & thin, and it was undeniable Kira felt a level of attachment to Fllay. Still, to look at that and call it love is more than a stretch, because I can easily make a case for a lot of female characters with Kira. Hell, he almost got on with Cagali.

Lets not forget, this is also the woman who made Kira commit a series of atrocities, turned against his friends, and wished him to die. I am sorry, but this screams unhealthy at just about every level. I am glad Kira is mentally sound.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2012-08-29 at 14:10.
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Old 2012-08-29, 11:30   Link #4220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
I'm talking about why Kira was crying.
But that's the same scene.

Spoiler:
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