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Old 2012-08-28, 17:41   Link #23181
Ithekro
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Well at least Japan has two "aircraft carriers" to counter that with two more larger ones planned (though Japan's helicopter destroyers are much smaller and can't carry nearly as many aircraft as the ex-Soviet carrier. That and the F-35 is not ready yet).
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Old 2012-08-28, 18:10   Link #23182
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i will give that the annexation in 1879 was "peaceful" but the invasion in the 1609 was also peaceful?
The article was referring to 1879, not to 1609.
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Old 2012-08-28, 18:22   Link #23183
SeijiSensei
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When I was in Northern Ireland in the mid-1970's I noticed the prevalence of "Remember the Battle of the Boyne" graffiti on building walls around the country. I would later tell students in my British politics course about this, remarking on how strange it was to see an event which happened hundreds of years in the past be a rallying cry for contemporary political conflict. I see a lot of the same kinds of emotions expressed here. What bearing does an event from 1609 have on politics in today's world? Perhaps it's just because I live in such a young country that I have no appreciation for attitudes like these, though I grew up a few miles from Plymouth Rock and heard often about our Pilgrim forebears. It's time to leave these arguments behind and figure out how to resolve the various territorial conflicts in the China Sea peacefully in the here and now. Concerns about sovereignty over these islands four hundred years ago seems only an impediment to resolving an international dispute in 2012. Isn't it time to move on?
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Old 2012-08-28, 18:34   Link #23184
Ithekro
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Reminds me of one of the few things that bothered me about Full Metal Panic! The American sub commander envoking "Remember Pearl Harbor" around the year 2000. No only against a submarine that isn't a Japanese national vessel, but also he clearly wasn't born until after the Second World War (an average Attack Submarine Commander would not be in this 60s or older and still look like that). I know that world is different, but it is clear that the allies won World War II and that Japan was defeated more or less as per history. The radical changes don't seem to start until the 1980s....though there may have been other changes as China in divided instead of Korea.

Just the invoking of Pearl Harbor seemed way out of left field. Yet I've seen it mentioned in news comments against the Japanese from time to time (the worst being after last year's earthquake...before the number of deaths skyrocketed past 3,000).
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Old 2012-08-28, 18:49   Link #23185
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
When I was in Northern Ireland in the mid-1970's I noticed the prevalence of "Remember the Battle of the Boyne" graffiti on building walls around the country. I would later tell students in my British politics course about this, remarking on how strange it was to see an event which happened hundreds of years in the past be a rallying cry for contemporary political conflict. I see a lot of the same kinds of emotions expressed here. What bearing does an event from 1609 have on politics in today's world? Perhaps it's just because I live in such a young country that I have no appreciation for attitudes like these, though I grew up a few miles from Plymouth Rock and heard often about our Pilgrim forebears. It's time to leave these arguments behind and figure out how to resolve the various territorial conflicts in the China Sea peacefully in the here and now. Concerns about sovereignty over these islands four hundred years ago seems only an impediment to resolving an international dispute in 2012. Isn't it time to move on?
Depends on the conflict. I'm not well versed on Irish history but I thought the outcome of the Battle of the Boyne had a lasting effect on the divide in Northern Ireland.

I'm sure native Americans don't look back all too fondly on the arrival of the Pilgrim Fathers. Historic events that have present day repercussions tend to be remembered.
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Old 2012-08-28, 19:00   Link #23186
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Depends on the conflict. I'm not well versed on Irish history but I thought the outcome of the Battle of the Boyne had a lasting effect on the divide in Northern Ireland.
Yes, but it had no bearing on the conflict between Protestants and Catholics in Belfast in 1975. There were real grievances that needed to be resolved, but making references to the Battle of the Boyne was hardly going to provide a basis for doing so.

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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
I'm sure native Americans don't look back all too fondly on the arrival of the Pilgrim Fathers. Historic events that have present day repercussions tend to be remembered.
Remembering is one thing. Making them the rationale for contemporary political movements or international diplomatic negotiations is another thing entirely. A lot of bad things have happened in human history. Should we continue to remain mired in those events when trying to move forward today?
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Old 2012-08-28, 19:02   Link #23187
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Depends on the conflict. I'm not well versed on Irish history but I thought the outcome of the Battle of the Boyne had a lasting effect on the divide in Northern Ireland.

I'm sure native Americans don't look back all too fondly on the arrival of the Pilgrim Fathers. Historic events that have present day repercussions tend to be remembered.
Nationalists don't care about the Boyne. It's the Orangemen who do. The winning leader at the Boyne was William of Orange, hence their name. The Boyne basically solidified the Victory of Protestantism over Catholicism in Ireland. The battles lines in the north are on religious lines, which is why the Boyne gets highlighted.

You'd have to talk to an Orangeman to get their side on why it's so important to their Order.
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Old 2012-08-28, 19:22   Link #23188
Ithekro
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Which is odd given that most of the recorded fighting has been considered the Catholic side trying to regain Northern Ireland rather than Northern Irelands trying to remain part of the United Kingdom. But that's just the media.
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Old 2012-08-28, 19:55   Link #23189
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Which is odd given that most of the recorded fighting has been considered the Catholic side trying to regain Northern Ireland rather than Northern Irelands trying to remain part of the United Kingdom. But that's just the media.
That's an overly simple way to look at it. On the Catholic side it's more about civil rights. On the Protestant side it's more about fear of Catholic domination("Home Rule is Rome Rule"). Unification of Ireland was just the most obvious means for both to occur, but was not the central issue.
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Old 2012-08-28, 20:11   Link #23190
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i will give that the annexation in 1879 was "peaceful" but the invasion in the 1609 was also peaceful?
The 1609 one is the one I refer to
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Old 2012-08-28, 21:07   Link #23191
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
When I was in Northern Ireland in the mid-1970's I noticed the prevalence of "Remember the Battle of the Boyne" graffiti on building walls around the country. I would later tell students in my British politics course about this, remarking on how strange it was to see an event which happened hundreds of years in the past be a rallying cry for contemporary political conflict. I see a lot of the same kinds of emotions expressed here. What bearing does an event from 1609 have on politics in today's world? Perhaps it's just because I live in such a young country that I have no appreciation for attitudes like these, though I grew up a few miles from Plymouth Rock and heard often about our Pilgrim forebears. It's time to leave these arguments behind and figure out how to resolve the various territorial conflicts in the China Sea peacefully in the here and now. Concerns about sovereignty over these islands four hundred years ago seems only an impediment to resolving an international dispute in 2012. Isn't it time to move on?
This is a really interesting point. Clearly people are trying to seize on a topic that unites and motivates others toward a common goal, although its use as a rallying cry seems a bit weird...

How comparable is it to the Jews' remembrance of the Holocaust (and other persecution stories)? I understand that a bit better; it's meant to serve as a reminder that atrocities can be committed against you (or anyone, really) for simply being who you are. It's a reminder to speak out against persecution and extremism, because those things can lead people to do terrible things. There's a bit of a victim complex in there, too, I'll admit... the Holocaust is still fairly relevant, and many (including myself) are related to and have interacted with people who suffered through it. It will be very interesting to see how Jews' perception of the Holocaust changes as it grows farther away in history.
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Old 2012-08-28, 21:39   Link #23192
Bri
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Remembering is one thing. Making them the rationale for contemporary political movements or international diplomatic negotiations is another thing entirely. A lot of bad things have happened in human history. Should we continue to remain mired in those events when trying to move forward today?
I don't know. Sins of the fathers should not pass on to the children so to speak. Still, if a country, or part of a population, has massively gained from crimes committed by their ancestors at the expense of others, there should be some moral imperative to at least do something in return to address the imbalance.

In practice it's often more a matter of realpolitik in international affairs. Past events can be exploited to justify power-plays.
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Old 2012-08-28, 21:45   Link #23193
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Still, if a country, or part of a population, has massively gained from crimes committed by their ancestors at the expense of others, there should be some moral imperative to at least do something in return to address the imbalance.
I might agree with that in some cases, but not when we're talking about a bunch of nearly uninhabitable rocks. And we have discussed the issue of Japanese reparations above.

Regardless of my deep-seated revulsion that white Americans once enslaved Africans, I don't think paying reparations to current African-Americans would do anything much to "address the imbalance." It would inflame the racist sentiments that still exist deep within parts of American culture and probably result in an enormously regressive backlash that would put back reconciliation between the races in this country for decades.

Sometimes, you've got to "put your behind in the past," as Poomba says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem
How comparable is it to the Jews' remembrance of the Holocaust (and other persecution stories)?
Holocaust survivors are still alive today as are their offspring. I presume the same can be said for Chinese and Koreans who survived their time under Japanese rule. I have more sympathy for their holding anti-Japanese sentiments today than I do for people who are concerned about what happened in the 1600s. Nevertheless I also see those attitudes, as understandable as they may be, impeding a peaceful resolution of the sovereignty issues in the China Sea. I also have sympathy with the Palestinians who feel that the foundation of the state of Israel stole their homeland because of something the Germans and their allies did to the European Jews.* On the other hand, states like Iran and Saudi Arabia, not to mention the US, meddle in the Palestinian conflict largely for their own strategic purposes and not out of any real sympathy for the Palestinians. I have no use for that type of behavior.
_______________

*Yes, I know the Balfour Declaration was signed in 1917, but no one paid much attention to it until after the extent of the Holocaust became known.
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Old 2012-08-29, 02:22   Link #23194
ganbaru
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India Supreme Court upholds death sentence for Mumbai attacker
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87S05X20120829

Widely eyed U.S. energy data seen providing false readings
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87S05C20120829
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Old 2012-08-29, 05:51   Link #23195
Bri
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Regardless of my deep-seated revulsion that white Americans once enslaved Africans, I don't think paying reparations to current African-Americans would do anything much to "address the imbalance." It would inflame the racist sentiments that still exist deep within parts of American culture and probably result in an enormously regressive backlash that would put back reconciliation between the races in this country for decades.
I was primarily thinking about colonialism and development aid, but this could also apply to Native and African-Americans. I don't believe that the issue can be undone by reparations, as the individuals that suffered have long passed away.

However it is hard to deny that the current generations still on average start out life from a less advantageous position than the overall population. To me that would justify extra investments in dedicated education and job training programs to help over come that issue.
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Old 2012-08-29, 08:44   Link #23196
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Analysis: China's aircraft carrier: in name only
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87R15X20120828
That's not surprising. The United States has had greatly in excess of half a century to refine carrier operations, and that was a progressive evolution.
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Old 2012-08-29, 09:12   Link #23197
SaintessHeart
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That's not surprising. The United States has had greatly in excess of half a century to refine carrier operations, and that was a progressive evolution.
Wouldn't it be better if they redefined the entire thing in space, and cooperate with the Japanese to manufacture giant nigh-indestructible robots with commander-type ones coloured red and moving 3x faster?
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Old 2012-08-29, 10:16   Link #23198
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
and cooperate with the Japanese
See, I think that's missing the point of allot of China's ambitions ATM.
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Old 2012-08-29, 11:46   Link #23199
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Wouldn't it be better if they redefined the entire thing in space, and cooperate with the Japanese to manufacture giant nigh-indestructible robots with commander-type ones coloured red and moving 3x faster?
I've heard all of China's top commanders and aces no wear snazzy masks.
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Old 2012-08-29, 12:09   Link #23200
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I've heard all of China's top commanders and aces no wear snazzy masks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
See, I think that's missing the point of allot of China's ambitions ATM.
It is the Chinese Red Army anyway right?
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