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Old 2012-08-29, 06:47   Link #30241
Patchwork Chimera
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Okay, since my pride as a captain is at stake here, I'll do you the honor to respond. I'll make you regret ever bringing the decalogue up.

FIRST: Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that have not been PRESENTED!


Present at least one hint that was mentioned within the narrative that Bern's hair is not blue but any other color.

SECOND: Knox's 10th: It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves without any clues.

Bernkastel cleary says to Erika: 'My double who has the same blue hair as me'. If Bernkastel's hair isn't blue, she is trying to disguise herself! Where was that hinted within the eight Episodes of Umineko?

(P.S. I feel really silly...)
First: Okay, let's see... I'm not gonna go to the game, skip half EP8, snap a picture, upload it and tag it here cuz I'm friggin lazy, but I can prove that Bern is said to be a black cat. Ikuko's old and weird cat. You know, with BLACK hair.

Second: But she has the hints all over the game, since the moment her cat-tail appears in our unworthy screens still the moment Bern's described to be... a black cat.

PS: Yeah, Me too. At least we aren't taking this arguing seriously or it'd be pretty stupid XD

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P.S: The Battler Culprit theory? Really? Even with the EP5 reds that Battler is innocent. Battler didn't kill anyone? People sure have a twisted imagination.
People is retarded. Okay, no, but there's certain allure to a villian protagonist this days. Black Battler is pure fanservice--even the art is wrong and he's despited as a hardcore bishonen! And that story with Shanon smelled fishy. What do you make of it? Pure fanservice!
Or a stealth shout out to some detail in the series? Nah...

Quote:
Well, Touya claimed that he clearly remembered everything about Battler's life before the Rokkenjima incident. IIRC correctly, in order to prove it to Yukari he mentioned how she still had those hair ornaments she got from Battler, and how she used to hate... peppers, was it? And that was enough to convince Yukari (though I personally would want a bit more than that). He also claimed that for some reason he couldn't remember the days of the Rokkenjima incident clearly.

Of course he could be lying about any of this. I especially suspect the part about him not remembering the incident clearly, because if (assuming he really is Battler) something really awful happened that day that he didn't want Yukari to know about then of course he'd hide it.

In any case, assuming Touya really is Battler, it seems probable that Touya knew Battler's past very well and should be able to write about it. Yet whoever is writing these stories (besides maybe EP5) seems to know a lot more about Yasu than they know about Battler. Heck they even seem to know a hell of a lot more about Maria than about Battler.

All other things being equal, Yasu seems to be a more likely author of Banquet and Alliance than Battler. Actually, Eva seems to be the most likely author of Banquet if not for Ange saying in EP6 that "Itouikukuro Reigonamu" wrote it.
If I recall correctly, Tohya remembered Battler completely some years after writing the forgeries... right? The time he had an attack, he remembered all the Battler persona. After falling in his wheelchair, I supose he didn't write other forgeries because he was trying to avoid his memories as Battler or he'd worsen his health.

So, by the moment Tohya knew exactly Battler he wasn't writing forgeries anymore. All those are written by the still amnesiac Tohya.


Edit: Lazy post is lazy. Gotta go to work. -_-
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Old 2012-08-29, 07:42   Link #30242
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Meeting a person with amnesia by chance is unlikely. Meeting a specific and particular person with amnesia by chance is essentially near-impossible.
That's my point.
But I'm not sure I understand what is yours.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Who cares if it's circular. Everything has to rest on some kind of circular logic. In most stories we'd have the luxury of assuming everything we are presented, at least, to be true. In Umineko we don't. I'd say what we should be looking for is the most "elegant" circle that balances both theme and plausibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
Circular reasoning (also known as paradoxical thinking or circular logic), is a logical fallacy


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Plus Battler was being sarcastic anyway. Even if Touya and Battler are the same person I would still take this comment of Battler's with a grain of salt.
The usual problem within Umineko. You bring an evidence against a theory, they'll just dismiss that evidence as a lie.

How is this different from Knownnomore?

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
If Touya isn't Battler, and Ikuko isn't Yasu, then where's all the information to write the forgeries coming from?
If Ikuko isn't Yasu, then Touya must be Battler. I mean, exactly like it appears to be without thinking about never mentioned conspiracies behind the scenes.
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Old 2012-08-29, 08:38   Link #30243
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's my point.
But I'm not sure I understand what is yours.
It is more likely that the person Ikuko met is a stranger than Ushiromiya Battler, in a raw probabilistic sense that "I saw a stranger crossing the street on my way to work" is probabilistically more likely to occur than "I saw Michael Jordan crossing the street on my way to work." Unless, of course, you happen to drive past Michael Jordan's house every day right about the time he goes out for a jog.

So the chances of Ikuko finding a person who happens to actually be Battler by chance is incredibly small, smaller than finding a random stranger who just so happens to have amnesia too, unless of course she was actually looking for Battler himself. In which case we'd need to know why she was looking for him and how she knew where to look. Otherwise it's by far the biggest and unlikeliest coincidence in the entire storyline, if only because it's a situation that is not self-contained to a small area like the stuff on Rokkenjima.

I mean, even if Battler became an amnesiac hobo, he could be anywhere in Japan depending on whether or when he was found prior to encountering Ikuko and by whom. Hell, he could be anywhere on Earth, but let's assume he's not likely to leave the main part of Japan without sufficient faculties to do so. Encountering such a person by complete chance is exceedingly unlikely. The more likely scenarios are:
  • The person Ikuko encountered wasn't actually Battler; or
  • The person Ikuko encountered was Battler, because Ikuko was actually specifically looking for Battler and knew who and what to look for.
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Old 2012-08-29, 09:02   Link #30244
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Guys is episode 7 disliked by people? I think it was the best ep in chiru. Everywhere i go, i see people bitching on how ep7 sucked, i can understand the hate for 8 but 7 as well?
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Old 2012-08-29, 09:12   Link #30245
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It is more likely that the person Ikuko met is a stranger than Ushiromiya Battler, in a raw probabilistic sense that "I saw a stranger crossing the street on my way to work" is probabilistically more likely to occur than "I saw Michael Jordan crossing the street on my way to work." Unless, of course, you happen to drive past Michael Jordan's house every day right about the time he goes out for a jog.

So the chances of Ikuko finding a person who happens to actually be Battler by chance is incredibly small, smaller than finding a random stranger who just so happens to have amnesia too, unless of course she was actually looking for Battler himself. In which case we'd need to know why she was looking for him and how she knew where to look. Otherwise it's by far the biggest and unlikeliest coincidence in the entire storyline, if only because it's a situation that is not self-contained to a small area like the stuff on Rokkenjima.

I mean, even if Battler became an amnesiac hobo, he could be anywhere in Japan depending on whether or when he was found prior to encountering Ikuko and by whom. Hell, he could be anywhere on Earth, but let's assume he's not likely to leave the main part of Japan without sufficient faculties to do so. Encountering such a person by complete chance is exceedingly unlikely. The more likely scenarios are:
  • The person Ikuko encountered wasn't actually Battler; or
  • The person Ikuko encountered was Battler, because Ikuko was actually specifically looking for Battler and knew who and what to look for.
There's a point of interest about probability.
If Battler escaped from Rokkenjima, the only likely place where he could wash alive is Niijima (a little island of 23,5 km2 aprox., from were the Ushiromiyas take the boat to Rokkenjima). I can't, for the life of me, think that the 18 year old amnesiac, confused and most likely hurt boy could even get OUTSIDE of Niijima without anyone seeing him. He'd need to take a plane or a boat, to begin with.

So, it's very likely that Battler was in that island when he was taken by Ikuko.

What in the world was Ikuko doing in Niijima? If she lived in that place, the probability of finding Battler goes up to the sky, for the fact that the litile place is not very populated nor big. How many hurt/amnesiac people can you find in a small place like that, and what's the probability of them not being conected to the Big Boom in the next island were only a rich family lived? Is easy believe for the woman that the man was actually an Ushiromiya. With Ikuko being an hermit, she wouldn't be that much in tune with news of the outside/real world, so she wouldn't know inmediately but with a little investigation she'd make her conclusions about Tohya's identity.

So:
Ikuko living in Niijima = Very likely to find Battler by chance.
Ikuko living anywhere else = What the hell were you doing in that small island, if you are supposed to be an hermit?
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-08-29 at 09:25.
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Old 2012-08-29, 09:20   Link #30246
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
First: Okay, let's see... I'm not gonna go to the game, skip half EP8, snap a picture, upload it and tag it here cuz I'm friggin lazy, but I can prove that Bern is said to be a black cat. Ikuko's old and weird cat. You know, with BLACK hair.

Second: But she has the hints all over the game, since the moment her cat-tail appears in our unworthy screens still the moment Bern's described to be... a black cat.

PS: Yeah, Me too. At least we aren't taking this arguing seriously or it'd be pretty stupid XD

The fact that Bernkastel is depticted as a black cat does not prove her hair is also black. Black fur does not necessarily imply black hair. Minerva McGonagall can transform into a cat but its fur has no relation to her hair colour.

The black cat aspects are of Bern are just put in there for fanservice and possibly to trace back to Rika's punishment game outfit. The tail proves nothing.

(We should really be ending this, I feel like we're eating up thread space by being stupid )

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I mean, even if Battler became an amnesiac hobo, he could be anywhere in Japan depending on whether or when he was found prior to encountering Ikuko and by whom. Hell, he could be anywhere on Earth, but let's assume he's not likely to leave the main part of Japan without sufficient faculties to do so. Encountering such a person by complete chance is exceedingly unlikely. The more likely scenarios are:
  • The person Ikuko encountered wasn't actually Battler; or
  • The person Ikuko encountered was Battler, because Ikuko was actually specifically looking for Battler and knew who and what to look for.
I'm not sure what logic leads to that conclusion. Battler could be anywhere in Japan, therefore, it is possible for a strange novelist like Ikuko to encounter him. The fact that encountering THE Ushiromiya Battler is improbable, does not mean he won't be encountered by anyone. Improbable does not imply impossible.

And after all, Battler IS a stranger to Ikuko. Anyone else could have found him by pure chance, it just happened to be her. No matter how improbable, it's not that hard to accept.

Plus, of all the astronomical coincidences in Umineko, is that really the one that bothers you?

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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
Guys is episode 7 disliked by people? I think it was the best ep in chiru. Everywhere i go, i see people bitching on how ep7 sucked, i can understand the hate for 8 but 7 as well?
I haven't heard of that. Maybe people expected clearer answers from it.

As for myself, it really touched me the second time I read through it. The first one did leave me a disappointing aftertaste for some reason.


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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
There's a point of interest about probability.
If Battler escaped from Rokkenjima, the only likely place where he could wash alive is Niijima (a little island of 23,5 km2 aprox., from were the Ushiromiyas take the boat to Rokkenjima). I can't, for the life of me, think that the 18 year old amnesiac, confused and most likely hurt boy could even get OUTSIDE of Niijima without anyone seeing him. He'd need to take a plane or a boat, to begin with.
He didn't necessarily drift to Nijima. The sea can lead to an awful lot of places.
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Old 2012-08-29, 10:39   Link #30247
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
It doesn't need to be real information. Forgeries are forgeries. Fictions. There is no guarantee how close to the truth they are.
Are you suggesting Banquet, Alliance, End, and Dawn reveal nothing about the actual truth of anything having to do with Rokkenjima? I don't think you feel that way, but that's the logical conclusion of your line of thinking here.

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
If I recall correctly, Tohya remembered Battler completely some years after writing the forgeries... right?
No... I don't think it's ever made clear. In any case, what you are saying is counter intuitive, since it would seem that Rokkenjima memories are the most difficult for Touya and memories of Battler's life before the incident are the easiest.

But, even if we assume it's as you say, it's still strange that Touya would remember the backstories of other people better than that of himself...

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
Circular reasoning (also known as paradoxical thinking or circular logic), is a logical fallacy
No shit. I know what circular logic is. I know it's a logical fallacy. I know I'm engaged in it. Do you know you're engaged in it too when you claim Touya=Battler?

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The usual problem within Umineko. You bring an evidence against a theory, they'll just dismiss that evidence as a lie.

How is this different from Knownnomore?
KnownNoMore's all logic and no themes. His answer is ugly, cruel, and loveless. If you have to use bad logic to come to a conclusion in Umineko (which you do), at least try to incorporate themes.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If Ikuko isn't Yasu, then Touya must be Battler. I mean, exactly like it appears to be without thinking about never mentioned conspiracies behind the scenes.
Precisely.

This sequence of argument has been about comparing my "Touya=random_amnesiac" theory and your "Touya=hired_actor" theory, both of which require Touya to not be Battler, which implies that Ikuko must be Yasu. You seem to have forgotten what we were actually arguing about and accused me of "assuming Ikuko=Yasu" in the middle of a debate where both our ideas imply it's assumption by default, anyway.

I am annoyed by this.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So the chances of Ikuko finding a person who happens to actually be Battler by chance is incredibly small, smaller than finding a random stranger who just so happens to have amnesia too, unless of course she was actually looking for Battler himself. In which case we'd need to know why she was looking for him and how she knew where to look. Otherwise it's by far the biggest and unlikeliest coincidence in the entire storyline, if only because it's a situation that is not self-contained to a small area like the stuff on Rokkenjima.
Well, it's not a miracle that someone wins the lottery, but it is a miracle if I win it.

If we assume Battler really did make it to civilization, then someone is going to find him. If Ikuko was remotely normal, the fact that she found him wouldn't mean much. What's weird is that the "someone" who found Battler was the only person in the world who would secretly adopt him.
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Old 2012-08-29, 11:14   Link #30248
Patchwork Chimera
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
The fact that Bernkastel is depticted as a black cat does not prove her hair is also black. Black fur does not necessarily imply black hair. Minerva McGonagall can transform into a cat but its fur has no relation to her hair colour.

The black cat aspects are of Bern are just put in there for fanservice and possibly to trace back to Rika's punishment game outfit. The tail proves nothing.

(We should really be ending this, I feel like we're eating up thread space by being stupid )
Yeah. Let's end it.
But Minerva McGonagall is a gray cat. And her hair is gray... argh! Enough!

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
He didn't necessarily drift to Nijima. The sea can lead to an awful lot of places.
The shortest the time he spends in high sea, the larger is his possibility to survive. Especially if he was... y'know hurt in anyway that could casue amnesia. Or worse. From Rokkenjima to Niijima are a good coulpe of hours in a high-speed badass boat, so in the little thingy he took to escape it'd pass at least half a day. He could be in one of the nearest islands too, but not anywhere. And the fact is that any of those islands would limit his posibility to escape to another part of Japan.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
No... I don't think it's ever made clear. In any case, what you are saying is counter intuitive, since it would seem that Rokkenjima memories are the most difficult for Touya and memories of Battler's life before the incident are the easiest.

But, even if we assume it's as you say, it's still strange that Touya would remember the backstories of other people better than that of himself...
He used Yasu's bottle messages to sketch his own forgeries, adding things here and there from his own memories. The same can be said about the backstories of the family members: that could be investigated from the people that knew the Ushiromiyas by the Witch Hunters and periodists, and Ikuko herself helped him with what little bits she could grab.

After all, Tohya wouldn't be able to write anything about backstories if he had just his own Battler memories to go by, by the simple fact of the six years he was away from his family. The personalities, on the other hand, could be taken from his scarce memories of the Rokkenjima incident and before, Yasu's letters, etc.

Besides, I'd think is easier to remember his past before Rokkenjima that the traumatic experiencie lived in that island that caused him to lose it.
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Old 2012-08-29, 12:13   Link #30249
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Guys is episode 7 disliked by people? I think it was the best ep in chiru. Everywhere i go, i see people bitching on how ep7 sucked, i can understand the hate for 8 but 7 as well?
People dislike EP7 because they dislike Shkanontrice and EP7 is basically all about it.

I think it's a beautiful episode, myself.
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Old 2012-08-29, 12:23   Link #30250
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P.S: The Battler Culprit theory? Really? Even with the EP5 reds that Battler is innocent. Battler didn't kill anyone? People sure have a twisted imagination.
You've read EP8. You know people were still thinking it despite that. The problem is that the Red Truths really only refer to the forgeries, not Rokkenjima Prime.

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Well, according the narration she was sort of meant to be. I seem to remember her being described as always showing the same sour expression.
No, just no. That is not an indication of autism or any other mental disorder. Stop.

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This sequence of argument has been about comparing my "Touya=random_amnesiac" theory and your "Touya=hired_actor" theory, both of which require Touya to not be Battler, which implies that Ikuko must be Yasu.
Wait, how does Touya not being Battler imply Ikuko is Yasu?

If it's the problem of where the two are getting their information, we don't really have any proof that Ikuko's never read Eva's diary. Just saying.
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Old 2012-08-29, 12:44   Link #30251
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I'm not sure what logic leads to that conclusion. Battler could be anywhere in Japan, therefore, it is possible for a strange novelist like Ikuko to encounter him. The fact that encountering THE Ushiromiya Battler is improbable, does not mean he won't be encountered by anyone. Improbable does not imply impossible.

And after all, Battler IS a stranger to Ikuko. Anyone else could have found him by pure chance, it just happened to be her. No matter how improbable, it's not that hard to accept.

Plus, of all the astronomical coincidences in Umineko, is that really the one that bothers you?
...yes, kinda? Or rather, I think it makes more sense if there's a reason and it wasn't as coincidental as it seems (such as Ikuko looking for him specifically, whether she's Yasu or not).

But you're kind of... not very good at probability here with that reasoning of yours. The point is what Wanderer noted: It's not [relatively that] unusual that Ikuko would meet an amnesiac stranger, and it's not [relatively that] unusual that someone would find and help amnesiac Battler. It is exceedingly more relatively unlikely that Ikuko would be the one who finds Battler, purely by chance. The chance of two unlikely events happening at the same time is extremely low unless the scenario is designed such that happening simultaneously is the only way those events could have occurred. It's still possible, it's just unfathomably less possible than one of the two events happening by itself.

To wave your hand and say "Well, it could have happened, just like I could be the person to win the lottery this week, ergo there is nothing wrong with the writing" is missing the point of willing suspension of disbelief. A reader of a fiction can expect and accept coincidences; ultimately, small to moderate coincidences are necessary to drive a story forward. We accept that, in a love story, the fated couple is just going to bump into each other or come into each others' lives at some point, even if they aren't set up with the best reason (though if they are, so much the better). We accept that, in a story about a guy who happens upon a fortune and loses it in a series of hilarious and unfortunate mishaps, the guy stumbling upon the money is going to just happen to be the one who does so and not some other guy we're not reading about.

The coincidences we're asked to accept in Umineko are stacked to the ceiling, but we accept that for one extraordinary and magical weekend in 1986, bizarre and magical things happened. Even that is pushing it, but for the sake of entertaining the mystery-versus-fantasy battle most people are fine with it even if they have reservations about some of the execution (such as the killer getting away with incredibly risky maneuvers without leaving any evidence or risking being caught).

And then the veil lifts, and we're back in the "real" world, and... oh massive coincidences just keep happening. We'll accept that Battler lived. We'll accept he was washed up on a foreign shore without memories. But seriously, now he's just coincidentally stumbling upon the one person who can help him? And she's just coincidentally stumbling upon him? Right now, at this very moment? And everything just mostly works out fine? Really?

It makes a mockery of Bernkastel's role in the story if miracles are literally a dime a dozen. And given some of the story themes about creating miracles by fostering appropriate circumstances, it would make more sense if at the very least Ikuko had calculated where debris from Rokkenjima might wash up and regularly visited that area looking for information when she stumbled upon an actual survivor. At least then the encounter would make sense, fit with her motives, and not seem like an unfathomably unlikely coincidence, even though it is still a coincidence.
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Old 2012-08-29, 13:13   Link #30252
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Yeah. Let's end it.
But Minerva McGonagall is a gray cat. And her hair is gray... argh! Enough
She's gray with black stripes. That's the color of her glasses.

Bern is a black cat. Black is the color of her dress.

Checkmate.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist....)

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You've read EP8. You know people were still thinking it despite that.
Right.... I thought that was Bernshit or whatever, but then again Ryukishi did tend to take readers' opinions into account with Umineko....

Quote:
If it's the problem of where the two are getting their information, we don't really have any proof that Ikuko's never read Eva's diary. Just saying.
And why do they need to have information? How are we sure they do? Toya doesn't need to have Battler's memories neither does Ikuko need to be Yasu in order for them to write FORGERIES.

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It makes a mockery of Bernkastel's role in the story if miracles are literally a dime a dozen. And given some of the story themes about creating miracles by fostering appropriate circumstances, it would make more sense if at the very least Ikuko had calculated where debris from Rokkenjima might wash up and regularly visited that area looking for information when she stumbled upon an actual survivor. At least then the encounter would make sense, fit with her motives, and not seem like an unfathomably unlikely coincidence, even though it is still a coincidence.
I'm not really sure what your problem with this is. Ikuko had no relationship with the Rokenjima accident when she found Battler, and hell, she's not the only human being on this earth who would help a guy they found lying half-dead in the middle of the street. Plus, we don't even know that he had the accident right where he was washed off. I just can't see why this probability is so freaking low it's unacceptable. A stranger just came across a stranger that had an accident in the middle of the street and helped him. What's so wierd about it?

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Are you suggesting Banquet, Alliance, End, and Dawn reveal nothing about the actual truth of anything having to do with Rokkenjima? I don't think you feel that way, but that's the logical conclusion of your line of thinking here.
It's not that I feel that way, it's just not necessary for them to have that information.

Ryukishi said they do have some hints towards the actual truth. If we are willing to trust that, then Toya's and Ikuko's forgeries have grains of truth in them, BUT that's a "courtesy" on Ryukishi's part, on a Meta-Meta level outside of the story. I guess what I'm saying is, technically speaking, the forgeries could have nothing to do with Rokenjima. Hell, the Ushiromiya family may have even been kidnapped by aliens, as long as the cat box is closed, anything can be inside.

Ryukishi might have put hints towards Prime somewhere, perhaps, within his story, but that doesn't mean he felt like Toya and Ikuko were aware of it. If you try to read that into the story, yeah, it screws it all up, but then again that's just my theory.

Quote:
KnownNoMore's all logic and no themes. His answer is ugly, cruel, and loveless. If you have to use bad logic to come to a conclusion in Umineko (which you do), at least try to incorporate themes.
Add that it makes no sense and is dum.
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Old 2012-08-29, 17:30   Link #30253
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Wait, how does Touya not being Battler imply Ikuko is Yasu?

If it's the problem of where the two are getting their information, we don't really have any proof that Ikuko's never read Eva's diary. Just saying.
That's true, and I had thought of it, but it's not a tangent I want to inject into the debate of which is better between Touya=random_amnesiac verses Touya=hired_actor (which I think is a debate of highly questionable worth in the first place). Jan-Poo is free to inject it if he wants, although he seems to have implicitly proposed that the idea is not worth consideration when he said: "If Ikuko isn't Yasu, then Touya must be Battler", so I'm going to go with that unless he says otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
After all, Tohya wouldn't be able to write anything about backstories if he had just his own Battler memories to go by, by the simple fact of the six years he was away from his family. The personalities, on the other hand, could be taken from his scarce memories of the Rokkenjima incident and before, Yasu's letters, etc.
Yeah, but Yasu could do all this easily. Get my drift?

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Besides, I'd think is easier to remember his past before Rokkenjima that the traumatic experiencie lived in that island that caused him to lose it.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So why doesn't Battler's life during the last 6 years ever creep into the story?
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Old 2012-08-29, 22:49   Link #30254
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Why do the Witch Hunters trust the Hachijou Tohya forgeries so much that they put as much stock into them as the bottles?

It's not like they know the Tohya/Battler story.
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Old 2012-08-30, 00:40   Link #30255
AuraTwilight
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Because it 'feels legit'.

Really, it's just a handwave, since it's not like we get any other Forgeries to compare them to. It's kind of like when Ikuko refused to show off Eva's diary and that made the Witch Hunting fandom die off....for uh. Some reason.
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Old 2012-08-30, 03:03   Link #30256
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Because they were training to be ninjas so they can break in and steal the diary, obviously. You don't have time to theorize when you have to learn to go into stealth mode.

In all honesty though, you'd think the police would be coming down on Ikuko for her shit.
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Old 2012-08-30, 03:38   Link #30257
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So, at what point has Battler's past become a blank slate? Like we know nothing about the guy, when we have plenty of info about the last 6 years? He was a sporty, extroverted, popular kid living with Asumu's parents until they died. Refused to speak to Rudolf out of stubbornness, but occasionally spent time with Kyrie and Ange. Not the brightest bulb, but not a dunce either. had a few girls interested, but disliked their tendency to be interested in Astrology and the like. Apparently a bit of a mystery buff.

Again, I'm making the Meta-Meta assumption that despite the wiggle room the forgeries allowed, Ryukishi is presenting the characters selves fairly straightforwardly, because ... well, damnit, everything is far simpler that way, and there are enough elements that can be much more reasonably doubted, as it is.

Though I must admit, every single person I've tried to introduce Umineko to, EVERY SINGLE ONE, assumed the plot would pull a Shyamalan and reveal that Battler was the killer all along. And, to be fair, EP5 at least appears to give us an accomplice Battler of a sort. And EP6 is full on trollolol Piece-Battler.
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Old 2012-08-30, 03:51   Link #30258
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Quote:
So, at what point has Battler's past become a blank slate? Like we know nothing about the guy, when we have plenty of info about the last 6 years? He was a sporty, extroverted, popular kid living with Asumu's parents until they died. Refused to speak to Rudolf out of stubbornness, but occasionally spent time with Kyrie and Ange. Not the brightest bulb, but not a dunce either. had a few girls interested, but disliked their tendency to be interested in Astrology and the like. Apparently a bit of a mystery buff.
All that is information given to us by Yasu's message bottles, though, and she didn't communicate with him at all during those six years. Unless she wrote the message bottles during that family conference weekend, her depiction of Battler has no basis in fact.
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Old 2012-08-30, 03:53   Link #30259
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Though I must admit, every single person I've tried to introduce Umineko to, EVERY SINGLE ONE, assumed the plot would pull a Shyamalan and reveal that Battler was the killer all along. And, to be fair, EP5 at least appears to give us an accomplice Battler of a sort. And EP6 is full on trollolol Piece-Battler.
There's also how the story has this huge parallel between Kinzo and Battler going to such massive degrees...and it keeps it up far past when it stops making thematic sense in the Episodes.

Seriously, what was the point of comparing Battler to his delusional murderer and incestuous rapist of a grandfather at the end of the day?
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Old 2012-08-30, 04:42   Link #30260
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Well, in fairness, it keeps thematic sense throughout the entire story. The comparison isn't just about how they're similar, it's also about how they CONTRAST.
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