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Old 2012-08-30, 04:46   Link #30261
GuestSpeaker
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No, just no. That is not an indication of autism or any other mental disorder. Stop.
I apologise, you seem to have misunderstood me. I meant she is sort of meant to be completely emotionless, I was just quoting to show who I was responding to.

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Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So why doesn't Battler's life during the last 6 years ever creep into the story?
I always assumed that was all taken from the years before he left, he seemed popular with girls even at 12. All the other stuff about grades and the like could easily be overheard when Rudolf and Kyrie came to visit. Besides, if readers don't know about six years of his life it changes a lot about what motivations and actions we can give him. It is also semi-necessary for the whole "what if I'm NOT Battler" story line.

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to his delusional murderer grandfather
Hold on, we don't KNOW he is a murderer, I don't recall him murdering anyone.
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Old 2012-08-30, 04:53   Link #30262
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
All that is information given to us by Yasu's message bottles, though, and she didn't communicate with him at all during those six years. Unless she wrote the message bottles during that family conference weekend, her depiction of Battler has no basis in fact.
Well, assuming we have to restrict ourselves solely to what Yasu would reasonably know (a notion that annoys me a little, but whatever, it makes sense), she's basing her written Battler on the Battler she actually knows, the letters he sent in 1983, and any information one would gleam from casual conversation since then, since it was only in 1983 that she even learned Battler was in contact with Kyrie. And if we're giving Yasu enough credit to somehow be in the know about a baby switch, a casual "Oh, and how is Battler-sama this year..?" shouldn't be out of the question, even for her, right? Hell, in 1985 (and maaaaybe 84) she could even gleam a little bit of info from Ange who was part of Mariage Sorciere for awhile.

I would also point out that none of the humans is really shown to undergo a huge shift in character over that stretch of time (except Maria and Ange, who were still growing into having a character), and that despite his importance to Yasu, Battler tends to play a relatively small role in forgery narratives (that is, considering that the magic narrative grew pretty substantial after Legend).

I must admit that there is a mention of difference she makes between "the Battler I believed in" and "the Battler George and Jessica kept telling me about", but, I mean, I really wouldn't doubt Battler's presentation in the forgeries any more than I'd doubt Jessica's, or Krauss's, or Kumasawa's. :-/

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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
Seriously, what was the point of comparing Battler to his delusional murderer and incestuous rapist of a grandfather at the end of the day?
Mm, well, they did both attempt to "revive Beatrice", Kinzo (pretty crazily) in the human world, and Battler (somewhat unreasonably) in the Meta world. Both of them trying to reshape "something they had made" into "something they wanted it to resemble, from their past".. ?

Or maybe just to give Ryu an avenue to feel like basing Young!Kinzo on Battler wasn't cheating at all.
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Old 2012-08-30, 04:53   Link #30263
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I meant she is sort of meant to be completely emotionless
....What in god's name allows anyone to think Maria is emotionless? XD She's throwing emotional fits all the time.
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Old 2012-08-30, 06:20   Link #30264
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But in terms of facial expression, she is described as being emotionless. Though I suppose she is meant to freak out in other scenes, I haven't gotten too far into the PS3 graphic games and so can't comment on if she ever changes facial expressions in them at all.


Also since only the first two were written conclusively by Yasu alone, the baby-switch could have appeared in Game 4 as Tohya may have remembered it. That certainly would give you a meta crisis, if the person you are supposed to be but don't remember being may have actually not been who they think they should be...
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Old 2012-08-30, 07:37   Link #30265
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It is more likely that the person Ikuko met is a stranger than Ushiromiya Battler, in a raw probabilistic sense that "I saw a stranger crossing the street on my way to work" is probabilistically more likely to occur than "I saw Michael Jordan crossing the street on my way to work." Unless, of course, you happen to drive past Michael Jordan's house every day right about the time he goes out for a jog.

So the chances of Ikuko finding a person who happens to actually be Battler by chance is incredibly small, smaller than finding a random stranger who just so happens to have amnesia too, unless of course she was actually looking for Battler himself. In which case we'd need to know why she was looking for him and how she knew where to look. Otherwise it's by far the biggest and unlikeliest coincidence in the entire storyline, if only because it's a situation that is not self-contained to a small area like the stuff on Rokkenjima.
This logic is based on the wrong assumptions.
It would work only in the case there was some kind of relation between Ikuko and Battler, but they are on respect to each other two completely random persons.
Sure Battler later became famous, but Ikuko is still a completely unrelated individual. and this story is still a story about Battler among all the rest.
It's as if you read a story about Michael Jordan and you claimed it's not realistic because a random individual meets Michael Jordan. Someone is bound to meet Michael Jordan unless he decides to become a hikikomori.
A coincidence requires that two particular factors coincide.

And if by any chance you are claiming that it is an unacceptable coincidence that amnesiac Battler met of all the people someone that crazy to take him home rather than to an hospital, then you'd need to admit that Stephen King's Misery is equally unacceptable.

But let's compare the two cases:

A) Ikuko=Yasu & Tohya=random person
B) Ikuko=random person & Tohya = Battler

There is absolutely no difference in the improbability of these ecounters. In both cases the particular person related to Rokkenjima encounters a random person. Except the random person of case A possess more convenient peculiarities than of case B.

What's more peculiar? An amesiac whose mind is completely moldable, that is casually looking enough like Battler, that casually remembers to be 18 years old and whose background is generally compatible to that of Battler or...
A weird and bored rich person with low morality?


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I mean, even if Battler became an amnesiac hobo, he could be anywhere in Japan
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
There's a point of interest about probability.
If Battler escaped from Rokkenjima, the only likely place where he could wash alive is Niijima So, it's very likely that Battler was in that island when he was taken by Ikuko.
Actually no. It's been speculated that Ikuko lives in Shimoda or nearby, because it is suggested that the ferry service to go to Niijima is close by to where she lives.

So it's not a random place, it's a place that can be reached directly by boat traveling from the approximate position of Rokkenjima.


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
No shit. I know what circular logic is. I know it's a logical fallacy. I know I'm engaged in it. Do you know you're engaged in it too when you claim Touya=Battler?
So you're claiming your argument is based on a logical fallacy....
But exactly how my argument is a circular logic? I think you don't quite grasp the concept of "circular logic".


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
This sequence of argument has been about comparing my "Touya=random_amnesiac" theory and your "Touya=hired_actor" theory, both of which require Touya to not be Battler, which implies that Ikuko must be Yasu. You seem to have forgotten what we were actually arguing about and accused me of "assuming Ikuko=Yasu" in the middle of a debate where both our ideas imply it's assumption by default, anyway.
The way I see it we were arguing under different assumptions not just one.
Of course I'm arguing against your Yasu=Ikuko theory, but I'm also arguing against your Battler=random amnesiac theory. And if we assume Yasu=Ikuko, Tohya=random amesiac is as much probable and grounded on facts than Tohya=Hired actor. I do not support either theory, I'm just pointing out that when a theory is so little grounded on facts it is as good as a plethora of others.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
If it's the problem of where the two are getting their information, we don't really have any proof that Ikuko's never read Eva's diary. Just saying.
It's just that this option in my opinion is the most improbable of all. In the first place does such diary even exist? There is no conclusive certainty of its existence.
And it also looks very odd that Eva would write such diary. She spent her whole life trying to protect that secret, and then she just let a random stranger to find it?
I think it somehow could make sense if she made it so that truth would reach Ange when she was older, but then why she didn't ensure it would actually work?
The big question here is why Ikuko among all people would get that diary and how? What kind of relation is there among Eva and Ikuko? None that we know of.

And there's yet another problem. Eva died in 1998. Are you telling me that Itoikukuroreigonamu's forgeries never existed before 1998? that doesn't seem likely to me. In fact it wouldn't make sense, because it is implied that Ange already knew about those forgeries by that time. But then that would mean that Ikuko obtained the diary before Eva's death. How the hell did that happen?
You'd need to come out with some sort of explanation that has absolutely no basis whatsoever.
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Old 2012-08-30, 09:02   Link #30266
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I'm thinking about how Battler arrived to a little island that he couldn't escape unnoticed, and met Ikuko of all the hermits. But if Ikuko lived near Niijima as Jan-Poo says, she lived near all the other nearby islands where Battler could arrive and it's less of an otherwordly coincidence that she found Tohya and believed him to be Battler when he somehow gave him enough clues.

About the Eva Diary... it was just drama, I believe. I'd be pretty weird that a hikikomori woman can go and get a diary that should've gone to Ange by right (Ange is family, whether she likes it or not). So what? She somehow got her contacts in the hospital to steal personal property of an obscenely rich woman?
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Old 2012-08-30, 09:46   Link #30267
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Keep in mind Ryukishi likes gangster-yakuza stuff, so perhaps the job was done 'under the table', if you get me.

No, wait, if me memory doesn't fail this captain, some witch-hunters were the ones who found it first, and then it doesn't specify how Ikuko got her hands on it, although considering her status on the witch-hunting community it would be much easier for her to do than steal it from the hospital.
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Old 2012-08-30, 14:07   Link #30268
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Well, assuming we have to restrict ourselves solely to what Yasu would reasonably know (a notion that annoys me a little, but whatever, it makes sense), she's basing her written Battler on the Battler she actually knows, the letters he sent in 1983, and any information one would gleam from casual conversation since then, since it was only in 1983 that she even learned Battler was in contact with Kyrie. And if we're giving Yasu enough credit to somehow be in the know about a baby switch, a casual "Oh, and how is Battler-sama this year..?" shouldn't be out of the question, even for her, right? Hell, in 1985 (and maaaaybe 84) she could even gleam a little bit of info from Ange who was part of Mariage Sorciere for awhile.

I would also point out that none of the humans is really shown to undergo a huge shift in character over that stretch of time (except Maria and Ange, who were still growing into having a character), and that despite his importance to Yasu, Battler tends to play a relatively small role in forgery narratives (that is, considering that the magic narrative grew pretty substantial after Legend).

I must admit that there is a mention of difference she makes between "the Battler I believed in" and "the Battler George and Jessica kept telling me about", but, I mean, I really wouldn't doubt Battler's presentation in the forgeries any more than I'd doubt Jessica's, or Krauss's, or Kumasawa's. :-/
But EVERYONE is surprised by the new Battler. No one is really any better informed than Yasu, really. And the whole time, everyone keeps talking about how Battler hasn't changed a bit in personality.

Now come on. Compare a 12 year old and an 18 year old. You're telling me there's NO personality differences there? At all? You're telling me someone doesn't change at all during puberty?

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You'd need to come out with some sort of explanation that has absolutely no basis whatsoever.
Welcome to Umineko, where we literally have no facts.

It sucks, huh?
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Old 2012-08-30, 18:45   Link #30269
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On that day, I had been hit by a car, and Ikuko had picked me up where I lay on the street.

If she hadn't hit the brakes...She probably would've driven straight onwards, thinking she ran over a dead dog or something.
Touya's apparently thinks it's a greater miracle he wasn't killed by a car on the highway, than that he was found. And he's kind of right. The chances are higher that someone would have killed him, while he was lying there, than someone picking him off the street. No matter who it is.
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Old 2012-08-31, 02:35   Link #30270
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You're telling me there's NO personality differences there?
As much as people here hate to hear this, if that wasn't a hint then it was probably more a "Oh darling, you haven't changed one bit" sort of flippant thing.
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Old 2012-08-31, 05:06   Link #30271
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So you're claiming your argument is based on a logical fallacy....
But exactly how my argument is a circular logic? I think you don't quite grasp the concept of "circular logic".
No. You don't grasp the breadth of it.

Normally we can take things as they are presented in a movie or novel at face value and treat them as something true outside of logic: In other words, we can treat what we are shown as "self-attesting" truth. In Umineko there is so much unresolved unreliable narration that we can't do that. We have no self-attesting truths, so the foundation of any argument made about Umineko must start with an assumption. It's basically the brain in a vat scenario.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Welcome to Umineko, where we literally have no facts.

It sucks, huh?
Yep. That pretty much sums it up.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Touya's apparently thinks it's a greater miracle he wasn't killed by a car on the highway, than that he was found. And he's kind of right. The chances are higher that someone would have killed him, while he was lying there, than someone picking him off the street. No matter who it is.
During the meeting with Yukari, it was also revealed that Touya had suspected for a long time that it was Ikuko who hit him.
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Old 2012-08-31, 07:02   Link #30272
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Welcome to Umineko, where we literally have no facts.

It sucks, huh?
Well you know, whenever I have the option I simply stick to what is apparent, and I don't dismiss as lie what it doesn't conflict with any other statement or fact in the story.
But I guess it's just me.
I've never come up with a theory without basis in the many years that I've been here. At best you can say that I based my theories on facts that I didn't know whether they were true or not, but that's still something.

This is more like "welcome to the Umineko community" rather than "welcome to Umineko".

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
No. You don't grasp the breadth of it.

Normally we can take things as they are presented in a movie or novel at face value and treat them as something true outside of logic: In other words, we can treat what we are shown as "self-attesting" truth. In Umineko there is so much unresolved unreliable narration that we can't do that. We have no self-attesting truths, so the foundation of any argument made about Umineko must start with an assumption. It's basically the brain in a vat scenario.
As I said you don't understand at all what circular logic means. Making assumptions is not circular logic.

And there is absolutely no justification whatsoever in using logical fallacies, no matter the situation. Even if hypothetically you were to be brought to a point where you need to use a logical fallacy (even if I can't even think about such a case) it would be better to just give up any attempt to reach an explanation, because a logical fallacy can only bring to a wrong reasoning by definition.

The hell... I don't even know why am I arguing against someone who claims to reason out of logic and making use of logical fallacies. In the end we can agree that your reasonings are devoid of any valid logic.
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Old 2012-08-31, 11:52   Link #30273
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This logic is based on the wrong assumptions.
It would work only in the case there was some kind of relation between Ikuko and Battler, but they are on respect to each other two completely random persons.
Sure Battler later became famous, but Ikuko is still a completely unrelated individual. and this story is still a story about Battler among all the rest.
It's as if you read a story about Michael Jordan and you claimed it's not realistic because a random individual meets Michael Jordan. Someone is bound to meet Michael Jordan unless he decides to become a hikikomori.
A coincidence requires that two particular factors coincide.
No. You just don't understand the mathematics here at all.

Michael Jordan is indeed no more or less likely to be encountered by any random individual who happens to encounter any other random individual. If I were to say "I'm going to go outside and meet a completely random person today," then the odds that would happen are pretty close to 100% unless I just happen to live in such an isolated environment that there aren't any people to encounter. However, if I say "I'm going to go outside and meet Michael Jordan today," the odds that would happen are generally pretty low. That's true whether it's Michael Jordan or my friend Bob Smith.

If I have a preexisting relationship or circumstance that makes a situation more likely, however, it's more believable because it's more mathematically probable. If I were to say "I'm going to go outside and meet Bob Smith today," and Bob Smith is my neighbor who is often in his yard when I leave the house in the morning, the chance of meeting Bob is vastly higher.

What does this mean? I'll continue:
Quote:
But let's compare the two cases:

A) Ikuko=Yasu & Tohya=random person
B) Ikuko=random person & Tohya = Battler

There is absolutely no difference in the improbability of these ecounters. In both cases the particular person related to Rokkenjima encounters a random person. Except the random person of case A possess more convenient peculiarities than of case B.
Actually you're ignoring one vastly more probable outcome, which is that Ikuko=Random and Tohya=Random.

Still, the issue is not whether it's somewhat more probable when you add the Shimoda factor, but whether setting things up to allow for the Shimoda factor gives the whole thing a fakey, overly-convenient vibe. Which it does.
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What's more peculiar? An amesiac whose mind is completely moldable, that is casually looking enough like Battler, that casually remembers to be 18 years old and whose background is generally compatible to that of Battler or...
A weird and bored rich person with low morality?
Either or both, really, is more probable than Ikuko=Yasu or Tohya=Battler individually (let alone both being true, which some people have theorized).

Also bear in mind that Tohya-not-Battler and Tohya-is-Battler are equally moldable in their amnesia, given what they originally remember. They are literally indistinguishable (you can't get around this by arguing) save that one is recovering genuine memories and the other is falsely remembering memories that appear to be genuine.
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It's just that this option in my opinion is the most improbable of all. In the first place does such diary even exist? There is no conclusive certainty of its existence.
And it also looks very odd that Eva would write such diary. She spent her whole life trying to protect that secret, and then she just let a random stranger to find it?
I think it somehow could make sense if she made it so that truth would reach Ange when she was older, but then why she didn't ensure it would actually work?
The big question here is why Ikuko among all people would get that diary and how? What kind of relation is there among Eva and Ikuko? None that we know of.
And there's yet another problem. Eva died in 1998. Are you telling me that Itoikukuroreigonamu's forgeries never existed before 1998? that doesn't seem likely to me. In fact it wouldn't make sense, because it is implied that Ange already knew about those forgeries by that time. But then that would mean that Ikuko obtained the diary before Eva's death. How the hell did that happen?
You'd need to come out with some sort of explanation that has absolutely no basis whatsoever.
Ikuko knows Eva, or contacts Eva, Eva gives her the diary or even writes down her experiences for posterity and passes them on to Ikuko.

Do we know that Eva doesn't know Battler may be alive? It's at least as plausible as the diary not existing at all... which, by the way, isn't exactly implausible either absent red. I mean, if Ikuko never actually intended to reveal the contents, it might as well be blank and she's bluffing.
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And if by any chance you are claiming that it is an unacceptable coincidence that amnesiac Battler met of all the people someone that crazy to take him home rather than to an hospital, then you'd need to admit that Stephen King's Misery is equally unacceptable.
Not even remotely. That's the premise of Misery. We accept that Annie is the one who finds him because that's the setup for the whole story. The Ikuko thing is damn near an epilogue, and it's random new information. It doesn't get the same pass.

You seem unable to grasp the difference between a premise and an orphaned plot contrivance.
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Why do the Witch Hunters trust the Hachijou Tohya forgeries so much that they put as much stock into them as the bottles?

It's not like they know the Tohya/Battler story.
Because they are believed to be closer to the heart of the story or more accurate in some way.

Except the people reading have no way of knowing whether this is true, and are so apparently unsophisticated that they cannot determine thematic veracity (which is a way you could declare the Hachijou forgeries more authentic even if you don't know the facts). If they actually were capable of doing what Alliance suggests they can do, they would never behave the way they do in Twilight.
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Old 2012-08-31, 12:33   Link #30274
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
No. You just don't understand the mathematics here at all.

Michael Jordan is indeed no more or less likely to be encountered by any random individual who happens to encounter any other random individual. If I were to say "I'm going to go outside and meet a completely random person today," then the odds that would happen are pretty close to 100% unless I just happen to live in such an isolated environment that there aren't any people to encounter. However, if I say "I'm going to go outside and meet Michael Jordan today," the odds that would happen are generally pretty low. That's true whether it's Michael Jordan or my friend Bob Smith.

If I have a preexisting relationship or circumstance that makes a situation more likely, however, it's more believable because it's more mathematically probable. If I were to say "I'm going to go outside and meet Bob Smith today," and Bob Smith is my neighbor who is often in his yard when I leave the house in the morning, the chance of meeting Bob is vastly higher.
I really can't understand why this seems so impossible that you can't accept it. After all, not everything that happens to a person has to follow mathematic probabilty.

For example, if you go outside and say "I'm going to go outside and meet Bob Smith", of course the chances of meeting him are pretty low, like you said, but that doesn't mean that you will never come across Bob Smith when you go out. It's absurd to assume that just because of mathematic probabity.

And after all, it's not like Ikuko was any key player that her encounter with Battler was bound to bring some massive development or a deux ex machina for the story that would make it all too convenient. It may have turned out similarly if it were "Bob Smith" that discovered him. At any rate, since he had an accident and was lying in the middle of the street, someone would discover him at some point. Why is it a hell of a coincidence that it was Ikuko who did? They didn't even know each other. And there's the Shimoda factor, (as you said, for convenience), he had an accident close to where Ikuko lived. It's awfully strategic, but you put it like an astronomically small chance, one that's so damn unbelievable. I just can't understand that's coming from.
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Old 2012-08-31, 13:33   Link #30275
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It wasn't ever established that she lived there until she came into the story at all, essentially. The reason she's conveniently there is because a convenient contrivance happens to exist. And she happens to also be wealthy, reclusive, and secretive by nature, all of which just happens to conceal the person she has rescued instead of being Bob Smith who would just take him to a hospital or whatever.

It's pretty implausible even given everything else.
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Old 2012-08-31, 14:18   Link #30276
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It wasn't ever established that she lived there until she came into the story at all, essentially. The reason she's conveniently there is because a convenient contrivance happens to exist. And she happens to also be wealthy, reclusive, and secretive by nature, all of which just happens to conceal the person she has rescued instead of being Bob Smith who would just take him to a hospital or whatever.

It's pretty implausible even given everything else.
Implausible? Yeah, it is, awfully implausible, but not because the probability of Ikuko finding Battler is terribly low. Well, I guess Ikuko's characterization and all is just... hmm, how should I put this, the author's personal 'taste'?

It could have worked just the same if Battler was found let's say by "Bob Smith" and taken to a hospital normally. Well, I'm okay with it, but in all fairness it is far-fetched.
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Old 2012-08-31, 14:26   Link #30277
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
During the meeting with Yukari, it was also revealed that Touya had suspected for a long time that it was Ikuko who hit him.
This was revealed before he met Yukari also, just after the part I quoted. Touya mentions it in his narration in the chapter "ikuko touya" and says "he rudely theorized that she hit him at first, but her front bumper was undamaged, and he dismissed that theory after". At this part of the story, where he mentions it, the accident had only recently happened.
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Old 2012-08-31, 15:06   Link #30278
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This is more like "welcome to the Umineko community" rather than "welcome to Umineko".
No, it's literally a quality of Umineko itself, since Ryukishi wrote things in a way that calls everything into suspicion in a story where he told us to suspect what we're told. The fact that you take some things at face value only means you're willing to make certain assumptions about what we're being told. It doesn't put you in a different situation from anyone else. At best, you're not overthinking things; at worst, you're not thinking enough.

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Because they are believed to be closer to the heart of the story or more accurate in some way.

Except the people reading have no way of knowing whether this is true, and are so apparently unsophisticated that they cannot determine thematic veracity (which is a way you could declare the Hachijou forgeries more authentic even if you don't know the facts). If they actually were capable of doing what Alliance suggests they can do, they would never behave the way they do in Twilight.
If this is how Ryukishi thinks literary analysts are (and he certainly seems to think so given Twilight), one could argue that HE doesn't know the difference.

Hrrrrm, it all keeps piling up...
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Old 2012-08-31, 17:40   Link #30279
Wanderer
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As I said you don't understand at all what circular logic means. Making assumptions is not circular logic.
It is when your audience doesn't accept your assumption. In this case it's your assumption that things are "simply as presented" in Umineko which I don't accept.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In the end we can agree that your reasonings are devoid of any valid logic.
No, we can't. You should look up what it means for logic to be considered "valid" and how it relates to circular reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
This was revealed before he met Yukari also, just after the part I quoted. Touya mentions it in his narration in the chapter "ikuko touya" and says "he rudely theorized that she hit him at first, but her front bumper was undamaged, and he dismissed that theory after". At this part of the story, where he mentions it, the accident had only recently happened.
I had forgotten about that. That's interesting because it contradicts what was said in the meeting with Yukari:

Ikuko: "I believe you suspected that I was the one who hit you for quite some time."
Touya: "Hey, I've already apologized for that......"

I wonder when Touya checked the bumper for damage?
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Old 2012-08-31, 19:51   Link #30280
jjblue1
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Join Date: Aug 2011
About the Toya=Battler and Ikuko=Yasu...

Toya=Battler is strongly supported by Umineko. We could say it's part of the canon solution.

Yes, it's possible that actually this is just apparence and Toya is someone else, going from an actory hired to act Battler's role to a memoryless guy brainwashed into believing he's Battler or unconsciously deluding himself into believing he's Battler or something else I can't think about. Those are all interesting solutions but so far, as far as I'm involved, none of them looked like the intended solution.

Not that I like that much a solution involving the odds of Battler surviving yet reporting memory loss, reaching some place, being saved by a random rich person who keeps him as her secret pet, who incidentaly is a mystery writer and all the stuffs.

It's just it feels like ShKannon or the Italian submarine with the gold or other 'canon solutions'. I don't like them much as solutions but apparently they are the intended solutions.

Ikuko=Yasu isn't as strongly supported. It's not it's impossible Ikuko=Yasu. It's just there's no clear answer. It's entirely possible she's just who she says to be. It's also possible she's not... which doesn't necessary make her Yasu merely... 'not who she says to be'.

I fear that for Ikuko't identity both the 'she's who she says to be' and 'she's Yasu' theory can work in the Umineko setting and that a theory might seem more or less good merely according to preference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I had forgotten about that. That's interesting because it contradicts what was said in the meeting with Yukari:

Ikuko: "I believe you suspected that I was the one who hit you for quite some time."
Touya: "Hey, I've already apologized for that......"

I wonder when Touya checked the bumper for damage?
Well, he'd better have done it pretty soon either Ikuko would have had all the time to fix/replace it, or even replace the car.
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