AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Naruto

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-08-30, 19:55   Link #261
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
I'm not used to posting in the Naruto forums so I'm not entirely sure this really goes in this thread (sorry if it doesn't) but it seems to be~

I have a theory, which might be (probably is) crackpot.

Spoiler for Theory:
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-30, 20:20   Link #262
Whitemoon648
Sawa-Chan <3 <3 <3
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
I predicted a 16 pages flashback with the reveal Tobi=Obito at the end whereas it ended up to be a 15 pages flashback with a double page Tobi=Obito at the end so to be fair I wasn't completely right.
There is no need for super-powers, it's quite simple really: you just have to try to imagine the worse and most boringly obvious outcome you can possibly think of and you'd be unsurprised how often you'll be right.
You were right. Though i am not surprised. Gotta be surprised when you aren't right lol .

I don't agree this was the most boring outcome though. Imagine we have orichimaru and Sasuke just Ninja walking to get to where they were going ( with a few attempt at comedy here and there) or the Hokage's talking about how strong Madara is ( again). The horror of having had to deal with these scenarios.

I guess your worse scenario was the worse " realistic" scenario .
__________________
Whitemoon648 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-30, 21:15   Link #263
adawan
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
but if tobi is really obito then how does that explain the fight with minato.... o.O?
naurto 599 didn't show that

Last edited by Hunter; 2012-08-30 at 22:26.
adawan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-30, 21:32   Link #264
Kowai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SURREY
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperRareTreeCat View Post
When I think about it who is a very important character towards the story and this war, and who we know the least about, the one person we're constantly forgetting, the one who could make an exact replica that could fool anyone? Zetsu, who has been with tobi since his introduction. Once we find out who Zetsu really is (as in both parts) and his secrets we'll be able to uncover the secrets behind Obito's survival and why he's where he is now.
Yeah I agree zetsu is the key to the mystery 100%.

Didn't chojiro kill black zetsu though? Or just wound him?
__________________
sharingan is boring... and sasuke is a bish
Kowai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-30, 22:12   Link #265
Artimus_Prime
The First Rasengan!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperRareTreeCat View Post
In my opinion I had a strong feeling that Tobi would be Obito but the more I thought about it the two masked men are completely different individuals. People are trying to get explanation as to who "the" masked man is. I dont think Kisame and especially Itachi would be mistaken about long haired being madara. When I think about it who is a very important character towards the story and this war, and who we know the least about, the one person we're constantly forgetting, the one who could make an exact replica that could fool anyone? Zetsu, who has been with tobi since his introduction. Once we find out who Zetsu really is (as in both parts) and his secrets we'll be able to uncover the secrets behind Obito's survival and why he's where he is now. I mean Zetsu was introduced after Kakashi carried Naruto out of the VotE and we never really learned anything about him till just before the war. Zetsu's always been the secret to Tobi it's just a matter of time till we know.
yeah that zetsu is quite the mystery...
the mask man that fought minato was likely obito. i thought about it being a zetsu clone but he would a turned into said clone as we have seen him do after the raikage/bee skirmish with kisame, and during the war. also we have to consider that obito eye was being used during that fight...also he doesn't look all that grown up. that cloak seemed a bit oversized huh?
__________________
Mokujin Rasengan
Artimus_Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-30, 23:09   Link #266
SuperRareTreeCat
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kowai View Post
Yeah I agree zetsu is the key to the mystery 100%.

Didn't chojiro kill black zetsu though? Or just wound him?
What I remember is Chojiro sliced black Zetsu in half and thats the last we've seen. Although my guess would be that he'll just fuse his two parts together like the black and white fuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
yeah that zetsu is quite the mystery...
the mask man that fought minato was likely obito. i thought about it being a zetsu clone but he would a turned into said clone as we have seen him do after the raikage/bee skirmish with kisame, and during the war. also we have to consider that obito eye was being used during that fight...also he doesn't look all that grown up. that cloak seemed a bit oversized huh?
With the Minato vs Tobi fight Kishi did reveal that after being hit with a Rasengan that it looked as if Tobi's arm was melting into a goopy substance haha. At first I thought that Zetsu found and repaired Obito's body but if you look closely it was his left arm that was melting and his right side got crushed. Seems that the Obito we see now and the masked man that attacked Konoha are different people with the same motive.
SuperRareTreeCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 00:03   Link #267
Spectacular_Insanity
Ha ha ha ha ha...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Right behind you.
Age: 26
So.... Tobi really was Obito all along.

Well, shit. I actually didn't see this coming until I read the previous chapter (598). I am almost afraid we're being trolled again.... >_<
__________________
Spectacular_Insanity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 01:14   Link #268
ronin myael
lost ronin
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: in the recesses of my convoluted mind...
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
oddly enough, those mistakes really have nothing to do with fitting obito into tobi's role. changing when kakashi got chuunin and when minato got hokage really don't matter. they are just mistakes. they dont deny the probability that kishi always intended tobi to be obito. just the timing of kakashi gaiden and tobi's entrance as well as his name suggest that kishi planned his identity out from the getgo.

kishi is human and humans make mistakes, especially after years in between of events they wrote. what i really dont get is how there isn't some kind of QC editor to catch things like this and raikage's arm. we all noticed instantly and could have told kishi before the release of the chapter. i dont really get why nobody caught this. especially in one of the most important chapters of the series
i didn't say those mistakes have anything to do with tobi being obito, i don't really care about that now. we don't even know that tobi is indeed obito, it could be someone else using his body. kishi can still make this work that's why i'm holding out until he explains everything. what i'm driving at is the fact that this chapter is just plain careless. granted that kishi wrote kakashi gaiden several years ago, it's still no excuse for him to make mistakes like these. why can't he reread his old chapters just to make sure he gets the continuity right? that's what a good manga-ka would've done. the problem with writing a weekly manga is that you can't edit your past chapters to fit into your current ones, unlike when you're writing a novel. so what manga-kas usually do is make sure their current chapters fit into the ones they had already released because there's no way they could take back what they've already drawn or written. they can try to make up for them or come up with some lame excuse but this could make or break them. besides, prevention is always better than cure. he knows this so he really has no excuse. i can forgive the raikage arm thing, that was just a minor lapse, but these mistakes actually fuck up his timeline so it's different. this flashback just threw away years of information that he himself fed to us. my worry is that if he forgot about what he wrote in kakashi gaiden years ago then if indeed tobi is obito it's possible that he also forgot about the stuff he wrote about tobi, like tobi was a grown man when he fought minato, tobi was recognized by kisame as the mizukage, tobi claimed to have given nagato his rinnegan, etc. and if he forgot all about that, then you just have to question whether he planned this whole thing or not.

Quote:
- minato could have very well been hokage during the kannabi bridge battle. the face missing is not absolute proof that he wasn't. the monument needs to be constructed. it may have not been up there because it wasn't finished. and completed by the end of that first chuunin exam
- as far as this age thing goes, maybe obito is older. by like 2 or 3 yrs. i am not a datebook reader so i don't really know, but i also don't recall ages being cited in the manga…they could have just been in the same class, kakashi 5, obito 7 or 8. the numbers make more sense in that scenario.
- somebody mentioned to me earlier that there is no need to defend kishis mistakes. they are right, i know. i just like discussing and thinking about stuff
minato wasn't hokage yet, if he was then why would the village send their revered leader to a dangerous mission along with one young jounin and two chuunin? hokage are well-guarded and they usually stay in the village unless they really have to leave which is very rarely. why do you think jiraiya refused to become hokage? it's because he knew he'd be tied down to konoha, he hated staying in one place for too long. they went on a mission as team minato. and if minato was already hokage at that time then he wouldn't be traveling with his former team rather with his elite guard that included genma, who even learned the flying thunder god technique from minato himself.

obito is not older than kakashi, he was 13 years old when he died, he was kakashi's age, just like rin. and if you look at the drawings, they look about the same age. did you see kakashi in this current chapter? he's much taller than rin. does he look like a 5-year-old to you? he's about 11 at that time, the same age as rin and obito. obito became chuunin at 11.

hey, if it's just a minor lapse or a drawing mistake, i'd forgive it. kishi is human, he's not perfect. but these mistakes actually affect the timeline and give us confusing new info about these characters that doesn't coincide with his earlier info, so i just have to question them. only sheep follow the shepherd without question. if you have a mind of your own, if you're not blinded by your faith in something or someone, you will question everything.
__________________
"Sometimes you wake up. Sometimes the fall kills you. And sometimes, when you fall, you fly."~ Neil Gaiman (The Sandman)

Last edited by ronin myael; 2012-08-31 at 01:48.
ronin myael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 01:23   Link #269
The Small One
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Germany
I was just wondering about how Tobi's phasing technique exactly works.
We were told, that he just moves the part, that overlaps with the real world's attacks to his own dimension, so that it looks as if the things slip through him.
But is this a conscious decision, or does it work automatically?

If it's conscious, then he must be really focussed on the fight, but if it's unconscious, how can "it" decide what to transfer and what not?
The Small One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 02:29   Link #270
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
and if he forgot all about that, then you just have to question whether he planned this whole thing or not.
you could question it whether or not he made those mistakes. my point is that it makes no difference in that regard. and kishi coule have planned it out and made mistakes. those actions aren't mutually exclusive. i pointed out several reasons why it is likely he did plan it out, but just go with the name. it's obito backwards. no way that's a coincidence... tobi was named after obito. no question about it

Quote:
only sheep follow the shepherd without question. if you have a mind of your own, if you're not blinded by your faith in something or someone, you will question everything.
true, but are you calling me a sheep? I indeed recognize that they are mistakes and i question them. but you are making a superficial connection between different questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
I was just wondering about how Tobi's phasing technique exactly works.
when trying to picture how his technique works, just remember ch396 p2. tobi literally wipes himself away like a clock hand. that means he has complete control over every molecule of body switching between dimensions with complete precision. its like he's wiping a chalk board and the chalk is being sent to another dimension. that's how skilled his body and kamui technique are.

Quote:
If it's conscious, then he must be really focussed on the fight
i think it's safe to assume that it's conscious since he can do it to himself. its not just an involuntary reaction to foreign objects. even if it was he still turns it on and off with extreme speed. i think tobi is simply that good and that fast at kamui. could be wrong of course, but i think it would be a letdown to find out his phasing is somehow automatic
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 03:23   Link #271
ronin myael
lost ronin
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: in the recesses of my convoluted mind...
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
you could question it whether or not he made those mistakes. my point is that it makes no difference in that regard. and kishi coule have planned it out and made mistakes. those actions aren't mutually exclusive. i pointed out several reasons why it is likely he did plan it out, but just go with the name. it's obito backwards. no way that's a coincidence... tobi was named after obito. no question about it

true, but are you calling me a sheep? I indeed recognize that they are mistakes and i question them. but you are making a superficial connection between different questions.
well for you it doesn't, for me it does. personally, i can't trust a writer who made obvious mistakes on something he has supposedly all figured out. good writers usually plan ahead and they have everything plotted out, carefully calculating each event, information, etc. this chapter seems to be written by someone who doesn't really care about the continuity of his story. he gets a new idea then he puts it in without really considering whether it fits with his plot or not. i'm not saying that's exactly what kishi did but that's what it seems to me. kishi is not exactly the most consistent writer around so i can't really believe he has planned everything out.

as for obito being named after tobi? hmmm... i don't know. other people have jokingly argued in the past that tobi might be tobirama or even sarutobi. tobi is a common name. and tobi is not obito spelled backwards, if you spell obito backwards it's otibo.

lol, i wasn't talking about you! judging from your usual posts i know you question things when you feel you've been trolled or you feel it doesn't add up. i was talking about the fanatics. i've met quite a lot of them online and none of them could give me a good argument about anything. all they keep saying is "let's wait for naruto to end before we pass our judgment or comment on the series", or they would simply crucify you for criticizing their favorite manga and manga-ka. like right now, i'd probably get neg reps for this and be tagged as someone who just complains. even when i don't say anything bad about the chapter, they still think i'm complaining! they have so much faith in kishi they don't question at all even when it's obvious that he made mistakes or that there are some inconsistencies in his plot. besides, i was merely responding to someone else's post about fans saying there's no need to defend or question kishi's mistakes.
__________________
"Sometimes you wake up. Sometimes the fall kills you. And sometimes, when you fall, you fly."~ Neil Gaiman (The Sandman)

Last edited by ronin myael; 2012-08-31 at 03:43.
ronin myael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 04:57   Link #272
solidguy
I'm not a tumor
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In the dreams of beautiful women
Age: 22
yet more questions to be answered...how can tobi survive if he sends a piece of his head to the other dimension while phasing and survive... if he phases his arm to the other dimension is it considered separated from the rest of him or can he move it? if that is the case then why was deidara's arm ripped off? and why was it flung to a different location instead of staying in the other dimension? why hasn't he gone blind from spamming the tech? why do certain uchiha have completely arbitrary special techniques for their eyes such as kamui and shisui's techs? why did kisame have gills? the overall feel of how the story is going makes me think kishi is just gonna ignore answering most of the niggling mysteries.... WHY OBITO!!

lol though i did read the chapter again, as others said definitely needs that sad flute music in the anime
solidguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 06:13   Link #273
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
They should still at least show what really happened to Rin since if Obito lives than Kakashi's little death experience can't really be considered accurate.

Besides, Obito living means that we can't even take his word that Rin actually died considering that we never saw a body.
Destined_Fate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 06:52   Link #274
yakumo-chan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Behind You!
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
well for you it doesn't, for me it does. personally, i can't trust a writer who made obvious mistakes on something he has supposedly all figured out. good writers usually plan ahead and they have everything plotted out, carefully calculating each event, information, etc. this chapter seems to be written by someone who doesn't really care about the continuity of his story.
Yeah, the statue mountain of fourth hokage sure is a big mistake, and the chuunin Kakashi at 6 yrs old...

shouldnt he noticed it earlier when he is drawing the mountain?
I think it takes 30 secs to draw that mountain.... shouldnt he be notice it by that time?

I think Kishimoto has short memory problem, we fans noticed it earlier more than him...
im pretty sure he checked his chapter before he publish it.

anyways its not a big problem,

what important is that when he made the character Obito or TObi, im pretty sure he planned that character to be Obito all along,

the scenes:

Tobi talks to Sasuke,
Tobi vs Konan,
Tobi vs Minato
Tobi says "I am Madara"

were just a plot to make us believe that he isnt Obito
Tobi's Debut were pretty obvious he is Obito so that's why he made that plot
__________________
yakumo-chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 07:43   Link #275
Artimus_Prime
The First Rasengan!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
i didn't say those mistakes have anything to do with tobi being obito, i don't really care about that now. we don't even know that tobi is indeed obito, it could be someone else using his body. kishi can still make this work that's why i'm holding out until he explains everything. what i'm driving at is the fact that this chapter is just plain careless. granted that kishi wrote kakashi gaiden several years ago, it's still no excuse for him to make mistakes like these. why can't he reread his old chapters just to make sure he gets the continuity right? that's what a good manga-ka would've done. the problem with writing a weekly manga is that you can't edit your past chapters to fit into your current ones, unlike when you're writing a novel. so what manga-kas usually do is make sure their current chapters fit into the ones they had already released because there's no way they could take back what they've already drawn or written. they can try to make up for them or come up with some lame excuse but this could make or break them. besides, prevention is always better than cure. he knows this so he really has no excuse. i can forgive the raikage arm thing, that was just a minor lapse, but these mistakes actually fuck up his timeline so it's different. this flashback just threw away years of information that he himself fed to us. my worry is that if he forgot about what he wrote in kakashi gaiden years ago then if indeed tobi is obito it's possible that he also forgot about the stuff he wrote about tobi, like tobi was a grown man when he fought minato, tobi was recognized by kisame as the mizukage, tobi claimed to have given nagato his rinnegan, etc. and if he forgot all about that, then you just have to question whether he planned this whole thing or not.



minato wasn't hokage yet, if he was then why would the village send their revered leader to a dangerous mission along with one young jounin and two chuunin? hokage are well-guarded and they usually stay in the village unless they really have to leave which is very rarely. why do you think jiraiya refused to become hokage? it's because he knew he'd be tied down to konoha, he hated staying in one place for too long. they went on a mission as team minato. and if minato was already hokage at that time then he wouldn't be traveling with his former team rather with his elite guard that included genma, who even learned the flying thunder god technique from minato himself.

obito is not older than kakashi, he was 13 years old when he died, he was kakashi's age, just like rin. and if you look at the drawings, they look about the same age. did you see kakashi in this current chapter? he's much taller than rin. does he look like a 5-year-old to you? he's about 11 at that time, the same age as rin and obito. obito became chuunin at 11.

hey, if it's just a minor lapse or a drawing mistake, i'd forgive it. kishi is human, he's not perfect. but these mistakes actually affect the timeline and give us confusing new info about these characters that doesn't coincide with his earlier info, so i just have to question them. only sheep follow the shepherd without question. if you have a mind of your own, if you're not blinded by your faith in something or someone, you will question everything.
2nd paragraph response:
- the same reason they were anticipating him to come fight the kyuubi...I didn't see Gemma or the elite squad there either
- hokage aren't THAT guarded. the second was out in the field with team tobirama and co when he died...

3rd paragraph:
I have never seen there ages quoted in the manga...if I have missed these please refer me and I'll concede.

4th paragraph:
If its a mistake, it's a mistake. I'm using my own mind which is why we currently disagree. I feel how u feel tho. Mistakes like these hurt the story. I just don't think a mistake was made. That could change though.
__________________
Mokujin Rasengan
Artimus_Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 11:14   Link #276
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Yakumo I could swear you said the exact same thing a couple pages ago.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 11:46   Link #277
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
as for obito being named after tobi? hmmm... i don't know. other people have jokingly argued in the past that tobi might be tobirama or even sarutobi. tobi is a common name. and tobi is not obito spelled backwards, if you spell obito backwards it's otibo.
well in japanese it is obito spelled backwards which is all that matters. and in japanese tobi isn't spelled the same way as in tobirama or in sarutobi. so tobi's name is literally only a hint about him being obito or a new character named tobi. and since we now know he is obito (to an extent at least) then that name is proven to be based on obito's name

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidguy View Post
yet more questions to be answered...how can tobi survive if he sends a piece of his head to the other dimension while phasing and survive... if he phases his arm to the other dimension is it considered separated from the rest of him or can he move it?
just think of how suigetsu can turn into a puddle or orochimaru can be split in half and rejoin the halves no problem. or any ninja who transforms into anything. in this series having your body separate in any way is not that much of a hindrance to living depending on what advanced techniques you use.

Quote:
if that is the case then why was deidara's arm ripped off? and why was it flung to a different location instead of staying in the other dimension?
because kakashi was still new to the technique. at first he was spiraling all of deidara's body into the other dimension with the focal point at his elbow, but when kakashi realized he didn't have enough control over kamui, he settled for just transporting deidara's elbow away. it wasn't flung to another place. it is gone forever which is why when we see deidara's elbow vs sasuke, it is made of another body and sewn together by kakuzu

Quote:
why hasn't he gone blind from spamming the tech?
probably due to the 1st hokage's cells

Quote:
[why do certain uchiha have completely arbitrary special techniques for their eyes such as kamui and shisui's techs? why did kisame have gills? the overall feel of how the story is going makes me think kishi is just gonna ignore answering most of the niggling mysteries....
why do any of these ninjas have magical, physics-defying techniques and bodies? because it is fiction and they are magical people. simple as that
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 13:01   Link #278
Ero-Senn1n
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hidden Village of Sake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
2nd paragraph response:
- the same reason they were anticipating him to come fight the kyuubi...I didn't see Gemma or the elite squad there either
- hokage aren't THAT guarded. the second was out in the field with team tobirama and co when he died...
That was Kakashi's first mission as a jounin, and it was made clear by the dialogue between them that both Kakashi and Minato are now jounins, so Kakashi refused to listen to Minato since they were equal in rank.

There were ANBU guarding the place where Minato and Kushina were, they were killed by Tobi.

The 2nd hokage gave the hokage title to Sarutobi before he went on his suicide mission, he was not hokage any more.
Ero-Senn1n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 13:43   Link #279
Artimus_Prime
The First Rasengan!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
That was Kakashi's first mission as a jounin, and it was made clear by the dialogue between them that both Kakashi and Minato are now jounins,
yeah i admit to arguing from memory. just reread it though. i didn't remember anyone acknowledging minatos rank, but minato himself does so.
thats that i suppose...
__________________
Mokujin Rasengan
Artimus_Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-31, 17:11   Link #280
solidguy
I'm not a tumor
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In the dreams of beautiful women
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
just think of how suigetsu can turn into a puddle or orochimaru can be split in half and rejoin the halves no problem. or any ninja who transforms into anything. in this series having your body separate in any way is not that much of a hindrance to living depending on what advanced techniques you use.
True, but the survival of the user from these body modification jutsu's are one in the same with the purposes of the jutsu. An essential element of Orochimaru's body splitting technique and Suigetsu's technique is that the user doesn't get harmed, where as Tobi's seems to be transporting matter from one dimension to another. Bar him developing another technique to survive having pieces of your brain, heart etc. being partially separated from his body I don't see how his and kakashi's technique are coherent. Which makes me think that kishi hasn't paid attention to the details, that he laid down various red herrings and actually ran with one as a sort of 'its so obvious its shocking' reveal and that he hasn't planned the story out which makes me as an invested fan worried :/. Although yeah it is a minor detail...these minor details do add up though.
solidguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
weekly spoiler discussion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.