AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2006-01-03, 10:13   Link #181
Eidolon Sniper
Tsubasa No Kami
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Returning to my Place as the QUEEN...XD
Send a message via Yahoo to Eidolon Sniper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Yeah, right. And - as you've already been asked - how did they decide what genes fit with what job? How good of scientists can they be if they didn't even test their theories? (It's like coming up with a new molecules and injecting it in everyone's bloodstream without even trying it on animals first. Will it make us immune to HIV? Will it kill us all? Who knows?)

And the right genes give you an edge, true - but I'm more interested in the end result. What kind of person do you get? It's ridiculous to privilege genotype over phenotype. And that's what Dully, with his immediate, total implementation of the Destiny Plan, was doing. Not only that - even a generation later, how do you get a good enough control over people to make them into what their genes tell you they ought to be?
And you seem to keep missing the point that Goddess Lacus had got to Dully first before he could actually implement it.

And Dully wasn't saying anything about controlling people. Basically, it's their genes that do the deciding for them, not what Dully decides. If you're already made up of those things called DNA chances are you wouldn't be able to get a new set of DNA because it's already there and they are your passport to the high life or the not so high life. Once they've fit into the life they were really meant to be, what's the use of exercising control over them? Maximizing their potentials, knowing what actually suits them best...it would take away whatever discontent they had in the previous world and is replaced by blissful content. Who would even think of having their own free will "wrested" away from them, when it was their genes that dictated what they would be in the first place? Can you actually say "please I need another new set of DNA so I'll be able to become a bank manager"?

Quote:
Genetic Manipulation is like building a good book collection in your library for your child... at best, it can be enrolling you child to a certain course/program.. it has no direct effect on the child's life pattern/career/wealth & social status... It is still up to the child to take the initiative to stroll into the library and read / learn from the books... the course/program has to interestingenough that the child is willing to go to class to finish the program... The child still have the ultimate say in his life/career.
Did Dully say anything about genetic manipulation? All he said was something about the genes already in place, how these genes will affect your standing in life; he wasn't going on a tirade that he'll actually turn the entire planet into a world of Coordinators.

Quote:
In comparison, the Destiny Plan directly control every human being's future. A parent that's rich enough (or have the connection to manipulate a certain genes) essentially just wrote out the exact pattern of his child's life directly. You no longer create a child that is great in math, you create a doctor child, or a lawyer child, or a nurse child. And the children will have NO SAY in it. They cannot change their career because their gene dictates it!
And so you have also missed the point that Moon Eclipse was trying to tell you, and that is doing away with the system that dictates these sorry state of affairs (hence the Destiny Plan).

Quote:
These two type of "god playing" is in total different level. In Destiny Plan, Free Will is destroyed.
And how could you say that Kira and Lacus world of "if you screw Lacus sama you get Strike Freedomed" is not destroying free will in itself? That they'[re basically allowed to do anything except have brains and actually go against the Goddess's wishes? Some free will, that. (extreme sarcasm)
__________________

Ethereal Exiled Queen. NATCH~~~!!!
Eidolon Sniper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 11:13   Link #182
Moon Eclipse
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Yeah, right. And - as you've already been asked - how did they decide what genes fit with what job? How good of scientists can they be if they didn't even test their theories? (It's like coming up with a new molecules and injecting it in everyone's bloodstream without even trying it on animals first. Will it make us immune to HIV? Will it kill us all? Who knows?)

And the right genes give you an edge, true - but I'm more interested in the end result. What kind of person do you get? It's ridiculous to privilege genotype over phenotype. And that's what Dully, with his immediate, total implementation of the Destiny Plan, was doing. Not only that - even a generation later, how do you get a good enough control over people to make them into what their genes tell you they ought to be?
Observation and background knowledge about what gene affects what trait. They observe what genes most people that excel at their work have in common, then they look at what traits those genes display. Or they look at what traits make them excel at their job and see which genes control those traits.

As for genotype phenotype. If you control the genotype knowing the effects of the DNA you can also control the phenotype that is expressed.

It's quite simple in theory to control everyone by the gene. They did in PLANT already in fact. Genetic screening and testing. Marriage and child birth was already decided based on genetic mixture of whose DNA would complment whose DNA to make a nicely genetically diverse yet superior child.

Just take it a step futher. Genetic manipulation of the child so that the recombinant DNA is designer to exact specifications (not saying this is what happens with the Destiny Plan, just saying they could do it). Motivational Drive is nuture. You nuture the child properly in a controlled environment and the child will want to do anything you tell it to.
Moon Eclipse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 11:44   Link #183
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
Observation and background knowledge about what gene affects what trait. They observe what genes most people that excel at their work have in common, then they look at what traits those genes display. Or they look at what traits make them excel at their job and see which genes control those traits.
Which is where I call bullshit. For one thing, what does it mean to "excel at your work"? For another - what makes you say those qualitites the elites have in common (if there are any) are determined by genes?

Quote:
As for genotype phenotype. If you control the genotype knowing the effects of the DNA you can also control the phenotype that is expressed.
To take a trivial example - there is no "speak Chinese" gene. And yet more than one billion people speak it. If I'm going to hire someone and need him to speak Chinese, I won't give a damn about his genetic background. I'll want assurances he can speak Chinese, and has already done so, if only in school.

Quote:
It's quite simple in theory to control everyone by the gene. They did in PLANT already in fact. Genetic screening and testing. Marriage and child birth was already decided based on genetic mixture of whose DNA would complment whose DNA to make a nicely genetically diverse yet superior child.
Is that a fact? I thought it was done so they could have a child at all. Fertility was a bit of a problem.

Quote:
Just take it a step futher. Genetic manipulation of the child so that the recombinant DNA is designer to exact specifications (not saying this is what happens with the Destiny Plan, just saying they could do it). Motivational Drive is nuture. You nuture the child properly in a controlled environment and the child will want to do anything you tell it to.
Yes, and how are you going to control the environment enough? If it takes a hundred people to "build" one, you don't exactly have a winner of a society.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
And you seem to keep missing the point that Goddess Lacus had got to Dully first before he could actually implement it.
No. You don't get my point it'd be totally stupid and irresponsible to implement it on the whole planet, and to make all the sacrifices Gil made and was going to make (Break the world and the annihilation of Orb, to name two) without first testing it on a smaller scale. Look before you jump. Especially if you're playing with the fate of the whole damn human race.

We test drugs, we test cars, we test teaching methods, we test just about anything that could be hazardous to know exactly what risks are involved and for what results. We should damn well test grand masterplans for the human race.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 14:07   Link #184
Moon Eclipse
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Which is where I call bullshit. For one thing, what does it mean to "excel at your work"? For another - what makes you say those qualitites the elites have in common (if there are any) are determined by genes?

To take a trivial example - there is no "speak Chinese" gene. And yet more than one billion people speak it. If I'm going to hire someone and need him to speak Chinese, I won't give a damn about his genetic background. I'll want assurances he can speak Chinese, and has already done so, if only in school.

Is that a fact? I thought it was done so they could have a child at all. Fertility was a bit of a problem.

Yes, and how are you going to control the environment enough? If it takes a hundred people to "build" one, you don't exactly have a winner of a society.
Excelling at something though relative in the eye of beholder as you put it can be made definitative through basic consensus of people's opinions or public mandate. Just like words are words, you but can give definition to terms. Love is a relative term, yet you can define it in a dictionary. People either agree with the definition or are forced to accept it as a norm.

As for the "Chinese Language" gene. While true, there is no specific gene that allows you to automatically know chinese. There are genes characteristics that allow people to understand, learn, utilize, formulize and process languages better than others.

Control of society is "easy" through government institutions which a form of systems. Mankind manipulate and controls it environment even in today's standards.
Moon Eclipse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 14:57   Link #185
dom33
Pat:TAISAAAAA!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
people i think we're going off topic,so about the topic any one notice when the e.a. put up a good fight the show was good?
dom33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 15:37   Link #186
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
As for the "Chinese Language" gene. While true, there is no specific gene that allows you to automatically know chinese. There are genes characteristics that allow people to understand, learn, utilize, formulize and process languages better than others.
Prove it.

Quote:
Control of society is "easy" through government institutions which a form of systems. Mankind manipulate and controls it environment even in today's standards.
And yet you still have criminals. A failure of control almost by definition.

If you're going to shape people well enough for the Destiny Plan, you're going to need much tighter than what we have today. It's not enough to look at a kid's gene and say "you're going to be an engineer, now go to engineer school". For example, something as simple as a personality conflict with a teacher (and that can happen with the best teachers) could ruin the whole thing.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 17:57   Link #187
Moon Eclipse
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Prove it.


And yet you still have criminals. A failure of control almost by definition.

If you're going to shape people well enough for the Destiny Plan, you're going to need much tighter than what we have today. It's not enough to look at a kid's gene and say "you're going to be an engineer, now go to engineer school". For example, something as simple as a personality conflict with a teacher (and that can happen with the best teachers) could ruin the whole thing.
It's called genius. The ability to naturally learn faster than others is not a learned thing, though environment does affect the extent to which it might be harnessed. It is a inate genetic thing. The idea of left brained, right brained is not completely nuture either. Studies shows that it is genetical differences what will causes children to use the left side or right side of their brain which will determine whether they're inately better at the arts or more stuctured things like math and science.

Instead of me proving it, you prove me wrong.

And yet we have methods and systems installed to deal with criminals. The justice system (however ineffecient) is based on the idea of reforming criminals so that they can become productive law abiding members of society
Moon Eclipse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 18:40   Link #188
Demongod86
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Actually I believe that it is very possible to be able to speak a language by genetics. I immigrated from Russia when I was only 3 and a half years old, yet I can speak Russian fluently, although I've studied french for about five years, and CAN'T speak it at all.
Demongod86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 18:49   Link #189
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
Actually I believe that it is very possible to be able to speak a language by genetics. I immigrated from Russia when I was only 3 and a half years old, yet I can speak Russian fluently, although I've studied french for about five years, and CAN'T speak it at all.
Does your family speak Russian at home? It's not where you live, but the frequency of use that determines language familiarity.

And how old are you when you start learning French? Language-imprinting becomes difficult past a certain age.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 18:54   Link #190
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
It's called genius. The ability to naturally learn faster than others is not a learned thing, though environment does affect the extent to which it might be harnessed. It is a inate genetic thing.
Again, prove it. The development of the brain has many factors, starting with the mom's diet during the pregnancy and going on with what kind of toys the baby had. Genes are only part of it. Just because some characteristics have - like, say, a gift for numbers - have no clear source doesn't mean they're determined entirely by genes. Many people know who Pierre and Mary Curie were. Who can name their kids off the top of their heads?

Quote:
The idea of left brained, right brained is not completely nuture either. Studies shows that it is genetical differences what will causes children to use the left side or right side of their brain which will determine whether they're inately better at the arts or more stuctured things like math and science.
I didn't say genes play no part. I said Dully staked too much on them, and that what kind of person someone is, rather than what genetic code he or she has, is what should be looked at. And that the Destiny Plan should first have been tested in a way that didn't cost so much, and wouldn't have had such terrible consequences if it turned out to be rubbish.

Quote:
Instead of me proving it, you prove me wrong.
You're making the extraordinary claim here , that genes determine us to such an extent one can choose jobs based solely on the one's genotype.

Ever heard of that female ski champion who, decades after the fact, got disqualified because she turned out to have XY chromosomes, but due to some kind of accident during foetal development grew up as a girl? Genes can't even safely determine our genders and we're supposed to trust them to say who should do what? Who will be the leaders?

Quote:
And yet we have methods and systems installed to deal with criminals. The justice system (however ineffecient) is based on the idea of reforming criminals so that they can become productive law abiding members of society
The fact we have criminals at all show the limits of society's control over individuals. Doubly so for repeat offenders.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 20:03   Link #191
Moon Eclipse
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Again, prove it. The development of the brain has many factors, starting with the mom's diet during the pregnancy and going on with what kind of toys the baby had. Genes are only part of it. Just because some characteristics have - like, say, a gift for numbers - have no clear source doesn't mean they're determined entirely by genes. Many people know who Pierre and Mary Curie were. Who can name their kids off the top of their heads?

I didn't say genes play no part. I said Dully staked too much on them, and that what kind of person someone is, rather than what genetic code he or she has, is what should be looked at. And that the Destiny Plan should first have been tested in a way that didn't cost so much, and wouldn't have had such terrible consequences if it turned out to be rubbish.

You're making the extraordinary claim here , that genes determine us to such an extent one can choose jobs based solely on the one's genotype.

Ever heard of that female ski champion who, decades after the fact, got disqualified because she turned out to have XY chromosomes, but due to some kind of accident during foetal development grew up as a girl? Genes can't even safely determine our genders and we're supposed to trust them to say who should do what? Who will be the leaders?

The fact we have criminals at all show the limits of society's control over individuals. Doubly so for repeat offenders.
Eating right won't stop your baby from developing down syndrom. Eating write ensure your body has the resources it needs to survive, how your body manages those resources are genetic. Let's say you're a born diabetic, no matter how much sugar you eat, your body won't be able to produce the insulin to absorb the sugar. But let's say you're perfectly healthy, you're body will be able to given that your intake meets the recommended amounts.

How about you prove to me how it's not genetic. The ability to learn, retardation, learning handicaps. And how genuis is any different from the genetics of that just in the opposite manner.

Prove to me that a person with no genetic ability to do something can still do it if they have the "poper" nuturing.

I'm not saying that nuture takes no part either. I'm saying is that given equal environments, genetics will determine who's the superior.

The idea stems from natural selection and evolution. Those that are best genetically suited for the environment which they live in will thive, while those least suited will parish. Therefore, if you are genetically suited for a job (environment of a specific work nature) you will thrive, while people less genetically suited will not.

Gene's can determine you gender, they can also determine the mutations in phenotype. Like you said, she was genetically male. The problem is that her genes were also defective and so the expression of the gene to make into a male were suppressed and thus she stayed phenotypically female. It has to do the end part of the Y chromosome. All babies are female to begin with, they only start expressing male traits when the DNA is traslated into an enzyme which causes a chemical change resulting in the expression fo male traits. So all you're telling me is that that person was genetically defective.

Your example has no bearing over nature vs nuture since the definition which you define as "boy" or "girl" are social behavioral cues. We already allow genes to determine our leaders. The best and the brighests. Strong, good looking, intellegent. If you're going to put George Bush as a counter argument to this it's neither nature or nuture. It's money and control. Bush has the support of those with the most power to manipulate the vote. Systems. Power to manipulate the environment in which we live.

The fact that we have criminals show us that we do not exert enough control in order to deal with such behavior before it starts. I was once told of a society in tranlviania where you could put an dollar bill on the side of the town well and come back a month later and it would still be there. Why? Order in that city was so absolulte that no one dared to steal it. That a child is disobediant and out of countrol does not mean you're disciplining him too much, it's that you're not doing it properly and/or you don't discipline him enough. Control is not absolute that is why we have crime, because you have feedoms that is why you have war, hate and crime.
Moon Eclipse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 20:06   Link #192
Demongod86
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Does your family speak Russian at home? It's not where you live, but the frequency of use that determines language familiarity.

And how old are you when you start learning French? Language-imprinting becomes difficult past a certain age.
Was in 7th grade, which made me 13. Yes, my family (well, mom, I live with mom) speaks it a lot. So, there you go. But still, I never had much of a formal education with it.
Demongod86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 20:12   Link #193
danholo
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Finland
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
Actually I believe that it is very possible to be able to speak a language by genetics. I immigrated from Russia when I was only 3 and a half years old, yet I can speak Russian fluently, although I've studied french for about five years, and CAN'T speak it at all.
Dude, that has nothing to do with genetics. If you interact in that particular language before a certain age, you will learn it no matter what happens. I'm bilingual myself.

I have a friend though, who lived in Israel until he was 7 and that was his first language. Today, he can't speak a word nor can he understand it.
danholo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 21:22   Link #194
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
Eating right won't stop your baby from developing down syndrom. Eating write ensure your body has the resources it needs to survive, how your body manages those resources are genetic. Let's say you're a born diabetic, no matter how much sugar you eat, your body won't be able to produce the insulin to absorb the sugar. But let's say you're perfectly healthy, you're body will be able to given that your intake meets the recommended amounts.
But eating wrong will impair your development, no matter how healthy your genes are. So why is it a good idea to trust only the genes without looking at the actual result? You've never answered that.

Quote:
How about you prove to me how it's not genetic. The ability to learn, retardation, learning handicaps. And how genuis is any different from the genetics of that just in the opposite manner.
It's far easier to break a machine than to build one that works perfectly. One wrong thing in the genetic makeup can be enough to provoke retardation. But the things that have to be "right" to make a genius go beyong the merely genetic.

Quote:
Prove to me that a person with no genetic ability to do something can still do it if they have the "poper" nuturing.
I am saying no such thing. What I am saying is that prejudging on a person's ability on the mere basis of his or her genes is wrong. And, by the way, here's another question for you: it's not rare for people to be able to do several jobs. Like artists originally trained as engineers. Or mathematicians turned philosophers. Why should Dullindal chose what jobs those people will take?

Quote:
I'm not saying that nuture takes no part either. I'm saying is that given equal environments, genetics will determine who's the superior.
And where are you going to find equal environments? Just because people have the same jobs doesn't mean at all their environment will be the same.

Quote:
The idea stems from natural selection and evolution. Those that are best genetically suited for the environment which they live in will thive, while those least suited will parish. Therefore, if you are genetically suited for a job (environment of a specific work nature) you will thrive, while people less genetically suited will not.
We are more than our genes. Our environments shape us too. Imagine identical twins separated at birth. One raised in the wilderness by a tribe of hunter-gatherers, the other in a city by office clerks. Now drop both in the wilderness. Do you really think they have equal chances of survival?

Heck. Imagine identical twins raised together. One gets run over by a car and limps for the rest of his life. Do they have equal chances to make it as pro basket players?

Quote:
Gene's can determine you gender, they can also determine the mutations in phenotype. Like you said, she was genetically male. The problem is that her genes were also defective and so the expression of the gene to make into a male were suppressed and thus she stayed phenotypically female. It has to do the end part of the Y chromosome. All babies are female to begin with, they only start expressing male traits when the DNA is traslated into an enzyme which causes a chemical change resulting in the expression fo male traits. So all you're telling me is that that person was genetically defective.
AFAIK, her "problem" was teratogenic, not genetic.

Quote:
Your example has no bearing over nature vs nuture since the definition which you define as "boy" or "girl" are social behavioral cues. We already allow genes to determine our leaders. The best and the brighests. Strong, good looking, intellegent. If you're going to put George Bush as a counter argument to this it's neither nature or nuture. It's money and control. Bush has the support of those with the most power to manipulate the vote. Systems. Power to manipulate the environment in which we live.
"The best and brightest". Not "the people with the best genes", but those who can make a good showing for themselves.

Quote:
The fact that we have criminals show us that we do not exert enough control in order to deal with such behavior before it starts. I was once told of a society in tranlviania where you could put an dollar bill on the side of the town well and come back a month later and it would still be there. Why? Order in that city was so absolulte that no one dared to steal it. That a child is disobediant and out of countrol does not mean you're disciplining him too much, it's that you're not doing it properly and/or you don't discipline him enough. Control is not absolute that is why we have crime, because you have feedoms that is why you have war, hate and crime.
Historically untrue.

And besides, you said it yourself. "we do not exert enough control". But there is no indication it is possible to correct that. Especially on the huge scale Dully is proposing. I'm sure crime would go down if we could put three cops behind every individual, working in shifts. Is it practical? Is it even possible, considering the fact the cops, too, would have to be watched?
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-03, 22:33   Link #195
Eidolon Sniper
Tsubasa No Kami
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Returning to my Place as the QUEEN...XD
Send a message via Yahoo to Eidolon Sniper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Which is where I call bullshit. For one thing, what does it mean to "excel at your work"? For another - what makes you say those qualitites the elites have in common (if there are any) are determined by genes?
There was nobody saying in this thread that it's all about genetics. It is about genetics and the nurture aspect.

There are some qualities in which genes have a lot to do with it, but it does not mean that ALL qualities have genes related with it.

Excelling at one's work could mean that he has the genes in order to do that work effectively or is because of another thing entirely.

Quote:
To take a trivial example - there is no "speak Chinese" gene. And yet more than one billion people speak it. If I'm going to hire someone and need him to speak Chinese, I won't give a damn about his genetic background. I'll want assurances he can speak Chinese, and has already done so, if only in school.
Of course there isn't a speak Chinese gene, it is because some people are more apt to learn another different language than the rest of the entire world, that is why there are bilinguals, polylinguals whatever, you name it. But genes may have something to do in the way he picks up and learn new things rapidly. And besides, if you don't like trying to learn another language, this could also prove to be another hassle as well.


Quote:
Is that a fact? I thought it was done so they could have a child at all. Fertility was a bit of a problem.
It was one of the facts why there is an arranged marriage rule in PLANT: so they could have children, and then if possible try eluding the 3rd generation Coordinator syndrome, if I understand it correctly, it is by the 3rd generation that the Coordinators are starting to have fertility problems. Not all Coordinators could marry whom they want to in PLANT because of this rule (see: Talia and Dully); there is no marrying for love in strictly Coordinator sense.

Quote:
Yes, and how are you going to control the environment enough? If it takes a hundred people to "build" one, you don't exactly have a winner of a society.
Who says the Destiny Plan is all about turning the entire planet into a planet of Coordinators?!

Dullindal must've his own grand plans in how to do with this Destiny Plan of his, why else would he be confident about unveiling it to the entire world if he wasn't that prepared? (unlike some random someone dispensing love and peace to everyone... )

Quote:
No. You don't get my point it'd be totally stupid and irresponsible to implement it on the whole planet, and to make all the sacrifices Gil made and was going to make (Break the world and the annihilation of Orb, to name two) without first testing it on a smaller scale. Look before you jump. Especially if you're playing with the fate of the whole damn human race.
And Lacus and Kira intervening on every possible "evil" invasion and "incorrectness" of their ideals (meaning the "evil" persons, mind you) NOT playing with the fate of the whole damn human race?

See, the problem here was that ===>Fukuda wasn't able to introduce it properly, and the fact that his Goddess Lacus already considered it ill for human comprehension so much so that she declares wildly that Dully is TEH EVILNESS PERSONIFIED ONEONEONEONEONE~~~!!!111<=== just by the help of one measly little notebook that is like...several years old already. How could you even try deducing that as the fact or the truth when we're taught that in order to make a sweeping statement like that, we need to have more evidence, CURRENT evidence, that is? And what evidences that Lacus had? A moldy old genetics/experimentation laboratory? A little notebook? And a speech?

And what sacrifices? Did Dully outrightly blew Orb to kingdom come right away?! He only decided to blow it off from the face of the planet when it disagreed with the Destiny Plan. Breaking the world? The Destiny Plan was all about breaking barriers of the system that was solely responsible for not letting the people of the CE maximize to their fullest potential. How could you possibly say that it could actually break the world? Sure, it takes away free choice, because you can't do anything about it since your genes already decided your fate for you. Sure, it would make them even more mindless sheep. But if you were to make a choice in choosing an inept ruler of free will and a great ruler determined by genes and environment or whatever, who would you choose?

A small scale experiment before trying to implement it on the entire universe? Well, OK, but the world sorely needs change that instant (at least, what Dullindal felt, and what the rest of the CE population felt before being made into mindless sheep again by Goddess Lacus et al) so it would be unfair that he only implements it on, let's say, Republic of East Asia, and if it got so good, and that country prospered, the other countries would be at him for not even trying to implement his plan on the rest of the entire planet and so plunge the world into another stupid war. And you do realize it's that war Dullindal was trying to avoid, right?

Heck, the Destiny Plan was all about equality in the sense of the genes doing that equality thing for you: no more rich kids strutting it up on private prep schools just because only their family's money afforded them that; other deserving students of more ability than they are coming from not so great families would be able to access great education without having to spend lots of money, and so give them access to the high life in which their old, free will life only got them not so far into the social strata.

Quote:
We test drugs, we test cars, we test teaching methods, we test just about anything that could be hazardous to know exactly what risks are involved and for what results. We should damn well test grand masterplans for the human race.
No, we don't test grand masterplans for the human race. If that were the case, you think we'll be even able to try arguing or debating on this thread? For all we know, the grand masterplan for the human race prohibits exchanging thoughts between, let's say, Class A and Class C and let's say I'm Class C and you're Class A. It's bad for your environment, dallying with arguments from a Class C person like me, because you have to maintain a strict regimen of only being able to exchange thoughts with other Class A people, spending time with them, or what not. If this was still a test drive for that grand masterplan, what would you think of it? Of course, me as a Class C person would be about it, and of course a bunch of other Class C persons will too. And so that grand masterplan will never take place (unless the other Class C persons are so resigned to the fact that they ARE Class C persons and would not have anything to do with trying to change the system). This is given that it's tested, not yet straight away implemented.

Conclusion: It would raise opposition, and the plan would be thwarted.

And taking it to a more understandable level, how would you feel if your parents suddenly decided that your curfew would be, let's say, only up to 4:00 in the afternoon, and they implemented it right away? This is given that it's already implemented, and it was not tested.

Conclusion: It would certainly raise opposition, but if those who implemented it would be very vigilant enough, they would only be subjected to a few years worth of opposition until it finally dies out or explode into an all out war with very massive casualties.

Quote:
But eating wrong will impair your development, no matter how healthy your genes are. So why is it a good idea to trust only the genes without looking at the actual result? You've never answered that.
Because it's in the genes that determine how far we're going to get if we are to use our fullest potential, not just the things that we eat. It's the map of our entire selves, the other inputs should be the way we were brought up, the society we were also brought up in, and our day to day interactions with people. But our genes serve as the basis for these other things, so that is whyit's like that.

Quote:
Why should Dullindal chose what jobs those people will take?
No, no, NO. It's their genes that decide what job is best suited for them, and Dullindal is only pointing it out to them, not in any way he chose for them. Unless, of course, he already has this gigantic gene map spread out and is dictating to the entire world what their jobs are...

Quote:
people i think we're going off topic,so about the topic any one notice when the e.a. put up a good fight the show was good?
The Destiny Plan was one of the other reasons why GSD failed, the question of genetics and how it is relevant to destroying free will or whatever. So it's not entirely going off topic. Although, it seems as if this is starting to become a genetics debate thread...

Dom, the way the EA put up a fight made the show good. But then they have to sacrifice the remaining 45 or so eps in order to put the spotlight back again on the old cast and the shafted nerfed new cast, so it wasn't very good (considering the EA merely became a military entity of cannon fodder and not much else).

Bring back the old EA~~~!!!!
__________________

Ethereal Exiled Queen. NATCH~~~!!!
Eidolon Sniper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-04, 02:18   Link #196
Moon Eclipse
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
But eating wrong will impair your development, no matter how healthy your genes are. So why is it a good idea to trust only the genes without looking at the actual result? You've never answered that.

It's far easier to break a machine than to build one that works perfectly. One wrong thing in the genetic makeup can be enough to provoke retardation. But the things that have to be "right" to make a genius go beyong the merely genetic.

I am saying no such thing. What I am saying is that prejudging on a person's ability on the mere basis of his or her genes is wrong. And, by the way, here's another question for you: it's not rare for people to be able to do several jobs. Like artists originally trained as engineers. Or mathematicians turned philosophers. Why should Dullindal chose what jobs those people will take?

And where are you going to find equal environments? Just because people have the same jobs doesn't mean at all their environment will be the same.

We are more than our genes. Our environments shape us too. Imagine identical twins separated at birth. One raised in the wilderness by a tribe of hunter-gatherers, the other in a city by office clerks. Now drop both in the wilderness. Do you really think they have equal chances of survival?

Heck. Imagine identical twins raised together. One gets run over by a car and limps for the rest of his life. Do they have equal chances to make it as pro basket players?

AFAIK, her "problem" was teratogenic, not genetic.

"The best and brightest". Not "the people with the best genes", but those who can make a good showing for themselves.

Historically untrue.

And besides, you said it yourself. "we do not exert enough control". But there is no indication it is possible to correct that. Especially on the huge scale Dully is proposing. I'm sure crime would go down if we could put three cops behind every individual, working in shifts. Is it practical? Is it even possible, considering the fact the cops, too, would have to be watched?
First off it's not about gene's only. If it were Gil's plan would be to wipe the existent people off the face of the planet and just make a whole bunch of "kira and lacus" peferect genetic clones. It's about the ability to control the environment in which we live in thus to satisfy the nuture part of the equation as well as the genetic part of the equation.

It's easy for everything to break down instead of being created. It's far easier for a relatively uncontrolled and less maintained system to break down even more than one that is completely controlled and maintained. Our gene are suffering mutation, degredation and destruction all the time. Why does this not affect our very survival? You can get cancer form bruising and impact of your skin and cells. Why don't you? Because even you body has a microcellar system in which to maintain, correct and control this. Of course to an extent, but it is enough to allow us to live.

Yes a mathmetician can become a philospher, but which was he better at? No one is equally good at everything they do. They will always be inately better at some things than others. There in lies the idea. Why put him in something he's only second best at given his abilities can be better utulized for the benifit of all in the area which he is the best at.

Equal environment. You have two people competeing for the same job in the same place. equal environment. One will be better than the other given their natural born talents IF everything else being equal. You seem to have a problem with the idea of the if part of the statment. It can be accomplished. In the end it doesn't mean their environment will be different either. That would all have to depend on the evironment which is created and regulated for them.

You're still arguing around my original arugument when you're talking about car crashes and such. Because they're not in a completely controlled evironment are they if different things happen to them. And yes they may have the same chances of joining the NBA and going pro if the person in the car crash recieve the proper therapy, surgery and rehabilitation to bring him back to the physical condition that he was in before the crash.

teratogenic. Do you know why it's bad that you drink alcohol or smoke during pregnancy? Cause it affect and disrupt natural genetic processes of the baby during the developmental period of differentiated cells, genetic cellular expression. The formulation of the baby based upon the genetic code.

Oh I'm sorry I thought the "best and brightest" meant that they also had to had to have higher genetic potential than everyone else in order to achieve that "showing" that makes them stand out above everyone else...

Prove that it's historically untrue

In the end you're arguing that it's going to be hard to maintain, but that's nothing new with any system of control and order. Yet somehow we still manage to maintain ours well enough to get by
Moon Eclipse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-04, 05:15   Link #197
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
First off it's not about gene's only. If it were Gil's plan would be to wipe the existent people off the face of the planet and just make a whole bunch of "kira and lacus" peferect genetic clones.
That'd be unhealthy.

Quote:
It's about the ability to control the environment in which we live in thus to satisfy the nuture part of the equation as well as the genetic part of the equation.
And yet what was shown was that genes were to be trusted more than achievements. Haven't you watched Gil's cartoon? Even if you work hard to get your job, and prove you're good at it - his goons may come to take you away "because your genes dictate it".

Quote:
It's easy for everything to break down instead of being created. It's far easier for a relatively uncontrolled and less maintained system to break down even more than one that is completely controlled and maintained. Our gene are suffering mutation, degredation and destruction all the time. Why does this not affect our very survival? You can get cancer form bruising and impact of your skin and cells. Why don't you? Because even you body has a microcellar system in which to maintain, correct and control this. Of course to an extent, but it is enough to allow us to live.
Your point? I know we have some tolerance for damage. But the truth remains we are far more likely to mutate into a handicapped person than into a genius.

Quote:
Yes a mathmetician can become a philospher, but which was he better at? No one is equally good at everything they do. They will always be inately better at some things than others. There in lies the idea. Why put him in something he's only second best at given his abilities can be better utulized for the benifit of all in the area which he is the best at.
Because that's where he wants to be? Besides, how are you going to say where he's "best"? What does it mean to be a better philosopher than mathematician? There is no accurate way to measure your greatness at either, and even if there was, you'd be comparing the proverbial apples with oranges.

Quote:
Equal environment. You have two people competeing for the same job in the same place. equal environment. One will be better than the other given their natural born talents IF everything else being equal. You seem to have a problem with the idea of the if part of the statment.
That's a pretty big IF. In fact, let's face it, it's a pretty impossible situation to have.

Quote:
It can be accomplished. In the end it doesn't mean their environment will be different either. That would all have to depend on the evironment which is created and regulated for them.
Quote:
You're still arguing around my original arugument when you're talking about car crashes and such. Because they're not in a completely controlled evironment are they if different things happen to them.
What, Destiny Plan is going to eliminate car accidents? Pull the other one, it's got a bell on. You seem to have a problem with the fact that "completely controlled evironments" are impossible.

It is, however, possible to control the environment very tightly. But the more control you want, the more ressources you need. It can't be done on the scale necessited by the Destiny Plan.

Quote:
And yes they may have the same chances of joining the NBA and going pro if the person in the car crash recieve the proper therapy, surgery and rehabilitation to bring him back to the physical condition that he was in before the crash.
Read the part with "he limps for the rest of his life". Heck, let's just say the car takes his legs off. What then?

Quote:
teratogenic. Do you know why it's bad that you drink alcohol or smoke during pregnancy? Cause it affect and disrupt natural genetic processes of the baby during the developmental period of differentiated cells, genetic cellular expression. The formulation of the baby based upon the genetic code.
I know that. But it doesn't adress my point at all that relying solely on genes is unreliable compared to direct observation of a subject.

Quote:
Oh I'm sorry I thought the "best and brightest" meant that they also had to had to have higher genetic potential than everyone else in order to achieve that "showing" that makes them stand out above everyone else...
Their genetic potential means nothing if they don't use it. Which do you think is the true genius? The one with the best genes who never even learn how to read, or the one with slightly lesser genes who creates a new physics theory? Would you give a Nobel Prize to the former?

Quote:
Prove that it's historically untrue
Nowadays, we have more freedoms, yet fewer wars than in centuries past.

Quote:
In the end you're arguing that it's going to be hard to maintain, but that's nothing new with any system of control and order. Yet somehow we still manage to maintain ours well enough to get by
That's because we have more leeway. We don't need to have so much control. We take masses of kids and try to make citizens out of them. We don't try to decide what their jobs are going to be before they're even born.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-04, 05:24   Link #198
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
I'm too lazy to answer everything, especially since you don't really seem to understand me. So I'll content myself with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
And Lacus and Kira intervening on every possible "evil" invasion and "incorrectness" of their ideals (meaning the "evil" persons, mind you) NOT playing with the fate of the whole damn human race?
Kira and Lacus aren't trying their hand at mass murder and genocide.

Quote:
And what sacrifices?
"Break the World" meant the Junius 7 drop. As for Orb - opposition was predictible, which is why Dully acquired giant death rays. It's like saying a mugger isn't really a murderer, because if the victim had given in to the mugger he or she wouldn't have been killed. It doesn't work that way.

Quote:
No, we don't test grand masterplans for the human race.
We should certainly test the scientific theories behind them. In fact, that's how hypotheses become theories: they're tested. Extensively.

Just because it comes from "the best scientists in Plant" doesn't mean they got it right.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-04, 07:32   Link #199
BrokenWingz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 25
My opinion-
whats a 2nd seasons?
To finish off the ends of the 1st or to juice more money

What i didnt like
-mustve been a re-used scene in every ep!
-How one person(Shinn) can get so strong in just a few short(months?)time which there was probably a ton of people(people in orb) who were torn through war but only the one become ace piolet

-The re-used concepted
such as
Stellar appearing before Shinn(Flay of GS)
The 3 "un-naturally" boosted people who play a small room(both series)
-There always seemed to be a new Gundam during the same ep of both seasons and how they somehow appear when one side is "winning" or where one side loses a Gundam or battle, then later on gets a new suit and somehow>other side

-I keep thinking Shinn of a similar Kira of Gundam Seed but more impulsive

-I cant remember but did anything major happy in the 2years? that happened inbetween the two series?
__________________
BrokenWingz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-04, 07:47   Link #200
Eidolon Sniper
Tsubasa No Kami
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Returning to my Place as the QUEEN...XD
Send a message via Yahoo to Eidolon Sniper
@ Anh_Minh

Your belief that Kira and Lacus are the perfect examples of utter righteousness in the world in spite of all the loop holes they did in GSD is either you're blind to or are just blatantly ignoring it. If you think their "corrections" of all the "evil" going on all around them is justified, just by merely saying that one person is evil by means of just a little notebook... right. Saying protecting free will when in truth Lacus would only get the "evil" people behind a new uprising against her ideals Strike Freedomed is quite a hypocrisy in itself. I am not even saying that they're going to do a mass murder. Or trying their hand at genocide. But this getting Strike Freedomed thing is quite near to it, yes? They must all agree to what Goddess Lacus thinks is best, or else Goddess Lacus will get angry and she will have them Strike Freedomed, Infinite Justiced, and now, WORST thing that ever happened since Fllay died, Destiny-ied. So stop putting words in my mouth.

Dullindal's involvement with the Junius 7 incident and Lacus' assassination were only shown in magazine interviews and weren't explicitly shown in the anime itself. Um, maybe even the Armory One incident, and what else. Was there any explicit proof in the anime that it was Dullindal who was the evil mastermind of it all? Only in the magazine interviews. His descent to the Dark Side was very, VERY badly done in the anime.

And I still go by my stand that testing a grandmaster plan for the entire human race is . If you still think that it should...

It's been advertised that it had already so many years of testing or whatever behind it. But since Fukuda screwed it up big time, then we could safely assume that it was never tested at all and so leaves Dullindal as the Big Brother of the Entire Universe, conveniently painting him as the TEH EVILNESS PERSONIFIEDONEONEONEONEONE~~~!!!111 Lacus magically declared him to be.

I'll just let that "personal" or whatever attack of yours slide.
__________________

Ethereal Exiled Queen. NATCH~~~!!!
Eidolon Sniper is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.