(L) Natsuyuki Rendez-vous (noitaminA)

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

If it wasn't for Nazo no Kanojo X, this would be the romance of the season for me.

You must be kidding! Outside of being the singularly best anime adaption of an ongoing manga that I've seen so far, Nazo no Kanojo X was also far more rewarding and far less frustrating on an episode to episode basis. The female MC was quite interesting (as opposed to being dull and boring, as cute as Rokka-chan is), although the male MC wasn't much better than either ghost boy or young boy. But, I suppose it's like comparing apples to oranges (seinen to josei).

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It’s hard to know what the Shimao currently possessing Hazuki’s body has in mind, exactly.

Seems to me like he's planning to get "Hazuki" arrested, found insane and committed to an institution, hopefully killing two birds at the same time. One, getting young boy put away somewhere where he can't interact with Rokka-chan and, two, getting Rokka-chan to hate "Hazuki" for a) callously treating her like a one-night stand, and b) stealing all of ghost boy's stuff.

The answer, of course, is no – even if she isn’t in love with Hazuki, Rokka would never accept a Shimao-kun that had stolen Hazuki’s life.

Oh, I wouldn't be too confident in your assertion (or do you know something all the rest of us don't know?). I find it perfectly plausible that Rokka-chan would look past all the bizarreness of the situation, forgive him for treating her like some slut he picked up off the street, and fawn all over him. After all, it's what's in the heart that matters, right?

Originally Posted by Reckoner

My problem with this show is that the characters are so damn unsympathetic to me. It demands emotional involvement, but I don't think the characters can evoke the proper reactions from me. It doesn't make care enough.

Same here. The problems I have are that 1. I just don't like ghost boy (he's irritated me from the get-go and the way he treats the wife he supposedly loves boggles my mind) which affects 2. the way I feel about Rokka-chan (if I liked her husband I would feel sympathy for her loss), and 3. young boy just doesn't have anything going for him (and his "romance" with Rokka-chan is just as dull and boring as he is; it just doesn't have any spark).

It's not a bad show but hardly matches the standard of josei noitanima shows of the past.

I do know that it is as stupid as a lot of the josei manga I've read, but I am the wrong gender to fully understand what a female josei reader finds appealing.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

You must be kidding! Outside of being the singularly best anime adaption of an ongoing manga that I've seen so far, Nazo no Kanojo X was also far more rewarding and far less frustrating on an episode to episode basis. The female MC was quite interesting (as opposed to being dull and boring, as cute as Rokka-chan is), although the male MC wasn't much better than either ghost boy or young boy. But, I suppose it's like comparing apples to oranges (seinen to josei).

Heh, I assure you I'm not kidding.

First, a clarification. I do think Nazo no Kanojo X is better than this show. It's one of those rare 10/10 shows. This one, I'd say, is an 8/10. (Don't stick too much on the numbers; that's about the difference I see.)

Second, I agree that it's comparing apples and oranges, and a lot of it comes down what you want from a romance. Nazo no Kanojo X, for all its unconventionality, is very conventional when it comes to pair-bonding morals. (Jealousy proves that they love each other, etc.) Since I'm a cynic, that's not generally a huge pay-off for me. Natsuyuki Rendesvouz has more the sort of story I go in for. There are people in emotional turmoil, and the question revolves more around what it means to be in a romance, and how that relates to living a life.

When you're torn apart inside, and you're living in a culture that discourages emotional outbursts, it's no surprise that you generally come across as a zombie (in Rokka's case with a cheerful act up front), and that your outbursts, when they happen, seem a tad selfish. If you're looking for a straightforward role-filling show: who wants what, and what actions do they take to get that, I'm not surprised the show seems lacking. None of them act like lovers, precisely because they're not sure what they want, or what that means. Natsuyuki Rendesvouz is not a show suitable for "shipping". If that's what you're looking for in a romance, look elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Spoiler for episode 8:

More and more I’m growing convinced that in every way that matters, Shimao is the main character of this series. The sense has been growing almost since the beginning, but what’s undeniable now is that everyone is quite literally dancing to his tune. Hazuki and Rokka (and his own spirit, truth be told) are prisoners of his fantasy. Not just his memory bit his soul itself has Rokka hopelessly ensnared and, like a fly caught in a spider’s web, Hazuki has found himself ensnared too by nature of getting close to her.

While I agree with this post (quoted and after) when it comes to character motivations, I'm thinking that looking for a main character does the show a disservice. We have a triangle here, and without any of the players, there would be no story. I feel the story unravels more on the social level than on an individual one, and I don't think any point-of-view is priviledged in a protagonist sort of way. Unless all of them collaborate, the outcome will be catastrophic. If Hazuki gives up (and takes the easy way out), the other two are - worse than ever - stuck in a rut. If either of the other two fail to come to terms with their past, they're stuck in a dance of attrition (until everything collapses).

If there's any antagonistic force, I'd say it's "obsession", and what it opposes is the protagonistic force of "bonding". And unlike in many other triangles, the relationship between Shimao and Hazuki goes way beyond rivalry. That's the outer role they have to play, to get through it, but beneath there're a lot of issues they have to tackle.

For Shimao, I'd say it's compartmentalisation: as a good husband, he wants his wife to get over his death; as a bad one, he wants to hold onto her. Because of that compartmentalisation, he can't recognise the value of both feelings and the necessity to face them before letting go.

And Hazuki has to learn to take charge of his own life, and not to submit to circumstance. He can't leech that energy off Rokka; it's an act, and even if it wasn't, it wouldn't really work.

For me to be satisfied there has to be some sort of conclusion to that confusion. There doesn't have to be a couple standing at the end of the show.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

For me to be satisfied there has to be some sort of conclusion to that confusion. There doesn't have to be a couple standing at the end of the show.

Well, I'll agree with this. I'm not necessarily looking for a solid romantic conclusion, nor do I either have an absolute need for an ending with two lovebirds, but when all three main characters leave a lot to be desired (Rokka-chan just seems pathetically stupid, ghost boy is irritatingly annoying, and young boy is just so apathetic), then I gotta wonder why the heck am I watching this?

What I actually find more interesting than the episode itself is the lack of response here in this forum. What, has nobody except you, me, and four other people watched the episode? Or has everyone else already given up on this show? Completely disgusted or turned off by the latest turn of events, perhaps?

[Kirarakim]

I am still watching but I am just not that enthused. I just don't feel emotionally connected to anything that is going on.

There are always moments I enjoy. For example in this episode I actually liked the scenes towards the end when Hazuki took action and tried to do something...but if that means I feel anything for Hazuki/Rokka, well unfortunately not really.

[hyperborealis]

Kirarakim's lack of connection to the characters made me think how distant the characters are from each other. Due to the intervention of the ghost, everyone relates to everyone else is a mediated way. Atsushi to Rokka via Ryusuke, Rokka to a Ryusuke who is not actually him, and Ryusuke to at best a fairy-tale version of Rokka. Perhaps this emotional distancing is why Kirarakim feels less involved with the show.

The lack of immediacy connects to Dawnstorm's point about living in a culture that discourages emotional expression. The peculiar distance between the characters seems to illustrate this social condition precisely. How absurd is it really that Rokka, for instance, is having days of conversation with Ryusuke without realizing that he is not himself? But in a society where people habitually shield themselves with discretion such a case is an ordinary fact of life. (We anonymous posters on the internet should appreciate this more than anyone!)

However, the show uses the device of the ghost also as a means to truth. What the characters lose in emotional immediacy from each other they gain in insight, in the capacity to understand themselves and each other past the usual social forms and limits. Thus Atsushi as Ryusuke functions as a mirror to show Rokka the truth of her own desires for Ryusuke. Subsequently, Rokka's interior monologues compose a narrative of self-reflection about herself and her relationships. And Ryusuke himself, as the most isolated character, is also the one most clearly behind the scenes, even if all the truths he encounters are cloaked in metaphors. So the intensities the show offers are not ones of emotional connections, but rather of revelations about the characters.

Dawnstorm's description of himself as a cynic made me think that Natsuyuki Rendezvous is a romance for cynics. Here I have in mind people who have divorced, or broken up with others, or even have had husbands die due to the absurd contingency of life. In a new relationship, such people might not be content with the fairy-tales romantics believe in (seeing these instead as kinds of prisons), but are satisfied at least with knowing the truth however bitter about themselves and their new partners.

[FredFriendly]

Looks like my speculation was spot-on:

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

I find it perfectly plausible that Rokka-chan would look past all the bizarreness of the situation, forgive him for treating her like some slut he picked up off the street, and fawn all over him. After all, it's what's in the heart that matters, right?

While watching this episode I was contemplating whether or not I would have any sympathy for ghost boy and Rokka-chan as a couple if you made a compilation of just Rokka-chan's viewpoint of her relationship with her husband up until he died. Strip out everything unrelated, young boy, her husband's viewpoint, ghost boy and all his hijinks after he died, and would I actually like them as a couple? I don't think so. There just doesn't seem to be any spark, let alone fire. No charm. No romance.

Normally, I would have dropped a series by now if I wasn't enjoying watching it. Watching the last few episodes has been an experience akin to sitting in the waiting room at the dentist's office where you know that something terrible is going to happen to you on the other side of that door (just listen to that whir and those muffled moans of excruciating pain), yet, all you can do is sit there in a miserably uncomfortable chair and watch the TV up on the wall spewing out one horrible soap opera after another, and you can't even change the channel. Eventually, as the clock ticks on, you start to feel like you'd rather be on the other side of that door sitting in the dentist's chair, prepared for anything the devil in disguise will torture you with, than getting your brain turned into mealy mush by the constant barrage of television gobble-dee-gook.

So now, instead of anticipating how wonderful an experience it will have been to watch this series when it's all over, I will continue to watch each new episode to see how far down the list of least favorite anime series it will go. Who knows? Maybe it will reach rock-bottom.

After the very poor showing of comments on this forum after last week's episode, I wonder if I'll be the only poster for this week's episode...

[D-KLAC]

only 2eps left indeed wonder how story will end?

so now rokka more flashback about atsushi include story of girl & the tree.

while hazuki end up now a snow white story & relax snow rokka white is ok.

& rokka see someone digging notice the running ask are you atsushi while give atsu-zuki feel bit more guilty to top it all now hazuki is turning into atsushi in story land.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

Normally, I would have dropped a series by now if I wasn't enjoying watching it. Watching the last few episodes has been an experience akin to sitting in the waiting room at the dentist's office where you know that something terrible is going to happen to you on the other side of that door (just listen to that whir and those muffled moans of excruciating pain), yet, all you can do is sit there in a miserably uncomfortable chair and watch the TV up on the wall spewing out one horrible soap opera after another, and you can't even change the channel. Eventually, as the clock ticks on, you start to feel like you'd rather be on the other side of that door sitting in the dentist's chair, prepared for anything the devil in disguise will torture you with, than getting your brain turned into mealy mush by the constant barrage of television gobble-dee-gook.

Interestingly, I've gotten more emotionally involved after the "switch".

After your reponses last time, I was wondering why you even bother with the show, so this post is very interesting to read. Me? I started out mildly interested. I saw interesting things, but wasn't really engaged - except sometimes, during Shimao/Hazuki scenes. But now? I'm really into this show, and paradoxically that makes it harder to write about.

(I actually forgot to check into this thread, because it disappeared from page one, and I don't visit that often. So everything from your last reply to my last post onward is new to me.

I quite like hyperborealis' post, but I'm not sure about that:

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

So the intensities the show offers are not ones of emotional connections, but rather of revelations about the characters.

All the characters are carried forward by a momentum from habits established before the show started, really. After episode 9 this comes out better than before, though I don't really know what to make of that ending yet. (I'm coming fresh from watching the show.)

The show unsettles me. It's freeing something repressed, and I think that's ultimately what the show is about. "Emotional connections" are very important to any romance, and I don't think Natsuyuki Rendesvous is any different. It's just that...

I don't know. If Nazo no Kanojo was a pleasant little stream, and Tasogare Otome was a river with some rapids, then this show is a bursting dam, where waters mix and mingle and flood a dried up river bed.

Not sure how much sense I make, but the closer the show gets to the finish the more it draws me in. And the less sense I make talking about it. I'm reduced to metaphors right now.

[ookamigirl]

So we got to the bottom of things.
Rokka is the one keeping Shimao here and not the other way around.
Hazuki still stuck in the sketchbook...
Flashbacks to Rokka and Shimao's life before were nice.
Although I'm kinda sick of all this stalling.
I'm glad she finally figured out that Hazuki isn't really Hazuki anymore.
It was a touching moment of revelation.
Oh man, this is not gonna end well. It's just making things worse.

[HandofFate]

I started crying more about the outcome after the switch since that's when it started fully exploring the psyche of each character to finally bring a conclusion.

Before, it was just building up relationships and in some younger-oriented genres, it would have been content to just do that for 100~ chapters, and end with a "things go on as usual" ending.

Finally Rokka finds out at least that Shimao was somehow present in some stuff. Last scene leaves things to look forward to or speculate on with Hazuki suddenly taking on Shimon's appearance in the Limbo world.

Might have something to do with Rokka breaking down x Shimao again on the edge of decisions.

Shimao's purpose was to clean up after himself and let everything go, but now Rokka caught up to him (no idea how she caught up to him with him having such a huge leadstart), he's tinkering again on "Am I really ready to move on"

I'm just clueless on FriendlyFred's comments on the last 3-4 episodes ever since the switch, since I draw a conclusion totally opposite from how he's viewing things.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

The show unsettles me. It's freeing something repressed, and I think that's ultimately what the show is about.

Yes. I think this is a very canny statement, about a show that has become deliberately uncanny, what with the blurring of the divisions between life and death, and much more the blurring between identities. It is unsettling to notice that Ryusuke has taken on Atsushi's appearance, both in "real life" and in the fairy-tale world.

I note that Freud understood the return of the repressed to be a form of knowing, as what had hitherto been banished as unthinkable and shielded from consciousness erupts into awareness. In this context he also was fond of riverine metaphors.

There is a great emotional power in Rokka's recognition of Atsushi, but does that constitute an emotional connection? Atsushi himself seems distant from the moment, and, as is typical with this show, is caught up in his own interior reflection at the very moment Rokka is distraught with tears. The animation underlines the distance by animating the scene of Atsushi comforting Rokka briefly as if it were a fairy-tale colored pencil sketch.

Emotional connection demands I think the narrative of a life, so that the connection of one moment relates forward and backwards to a shared past and future. When you say, I love you, the moment connects to your past with that person, and intends a deepening in the relationship that moves forward into the future. But such a connection cannot be possible for Atsushi and Rokka at this point.

Since it is not, this moment of emotional impact is consequently somehow suspect. It is as if the scene is there simply for the pathos, as the animator's manipulation of the audience's feelings. I don't say that is the case--let's see how the scene plays out in the next episode. But in the meantime, it is hard to feel in this moment an authentic connection, however I might justify the term "authentic." It is this dancing between an invitation to feeling and its undermining that makes the show so unsettling, so uncanny, so fraught with the unknown.

Do the characters interact with each other or with their ideas, thoughts, memories, desires for each other?

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Do the characters interact with each other or with their ideas, thoughts, memories, desires for each other?

Ah, thank you for this post. I see better what you mean, now. They're certainly not united in a mutual narrative thread; but they are united in a mutual state of significance (I now think Hazuki is losing that basic level of connection, and that's why he's turning into Shimao in fairy tale world).

The disconnection is in the very concept, but Rokka and Atsushi are keeping the past alive, but they're using the flower shop as a proxy. Hazuki stumbles into that mess and gets absorbed. How do you fight that sort of annihilation, when part of you doesn't even mind?

It's fairly complex. It is my second favourite romance of the year. (2012 is a much better year for romances than 2011 was.)

[Urzu 7]

How is this series? I only know a bit about it. I subscribed to Crunchyroll very recently and I see this series is on CR. Is it slice of life with some romance? Does it have drama and comedy, or just one or the other?

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

How is this series? I only know a bit about it. I subscribed to Crunchyroll very recently and I see this series is on CR. Is it slice of life with some romance? Does it have drama and comedy, or just one or the other?

More like a "slice of death" than "slice of life." If you read this forum, you'll discover that it's about three people: a woman, her dead husband who, unbeknowst to her, still resides in their house as a ghost and possessively watches over her, and a younger man who "falls in love with her." They are all adults, by the way, not teenagers.

Anyhow, ghost boy doesn't want anyone else messing around with his wife, so when the young boy seems to be getting too close to her romantically, he takes advantage of the young boy's drunkenness one night, and takes over his body. He screws his wife (literally) with the young boy's body, then steals a bunch of his own (ghost boy's) stuff and takes off on a short journey. Wife follows him and finally realizes that her dead husband is inhabiting the body of the young boy (whom she thinks she has fallen in love with, and had actually confessed to while ghost boy was inhabiting young boy's body). Wife fawns all over him. Meanwhile, young boy is in a fairy-tale land, pondering the meaning of his own existence (not very enthusiastically) while accompanied by a fairy version of the wife who is trying to find her prince.

That's about it so far. No comedy. No slice of life. Drama, perhaps, but the lack of sympathetic characters makes it difficult to feel any emotional involvement.

Some people seem to love this series (not me), but it also seems like a lot of viewers have dropped it over time as the number of people who respond on this forum has been dwindling with each new episode.

[Urzu 7]

I had to stop reading your post. It got into a bunch of spoilers. But I knew some details and then read the part where you said the ghost took over the body of the young guy and then did the woman, and that is one heck of a plot twist. I might have to check this series out.

I like checking out series that are different from the norm. I like the moe fanservice stuff, the sci-fi and fantasy stuff, magical girl genre, and other anime staples, but it is good to see series out there that are a nice departure from the norm. I'd like to check out the series to see how I like it. Most animes I've watched to completion I've enjoyed, even if only mildly for some. I'm not hard to please with anime.

[Guardian Enzo]

Definitely worth checking out - it doesn't pander to the audience in any way, but if you're willing to be challenged as a viewer it's one of the better relationship dramas of recent seasons.

[LKK]

Real Life emergency kept me away from all anime for over 2 weeks. But now that getting back to anime is a possibility, I made sure to catch up on Natsuyuki Rendez-vous first thing. It was hard not knowing what happened on the show while I was away even though RL had (and still has) many issues to keep my thoughts busy. This show remains my favorite of the season and the one I most want to know what's going to happen. It's also the one I can least predict as to how it'll play out. However, now that Rokka has realized that Atsushi is somehow in Hazuki's body, that Hazuki has resolved to see Rokka again no matter what, and that Atsushi has tentatively planned to move on, I expect things to come to head very soon.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Perhaps this amounts to a test of Rokka, to see how much she loves him – will she figure it out and follow him, and will she accept him even in possession of someone else’s body?

The answer, of course, is no – even if she isn’t in love with Hazuki, Rokka would never accept a Shimao-kun that had stolen Hazuki’s life.]

Looks like your assertion was 100% wrong. Like I suggested, "I find it perfectly plausible that Rokka-chan would look past all the bizarreness of the situation, forgive him for treating her like some slut he picked up off the street, and fawn all over him. After all, it's what's in the heart that matters, right?"

As far as I'm now concerned, if all three of them end up absolutely miserable, forever and ever, I'd be perfectly happy. Ghost boy deserves to burn in hell for what he's done to both Rokka-chan and young boy. Since he was so stupid as to let ghost boy take over his body, young boy deserves to be trapped in those woods as a ghost forever thus never being able to see Rokka-chan again once she leaves. For her callous disregard of ghost boy's treatment of young boy, Rokka-chan deserves to grow old as a loveless spinster, never to have another romantic affair.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

Looks like your assertion was 100% wrong. Like I suggested, "I find it perfectly plausible that Rokka-chan would look past all the bizarreness of the situation, forgive him for treating her like some slut he picked up off the street, and fawn all over him. After all, it's what's in the heart that matters, right?"

As far as I'm now concerned, if all three of them end up absolutely miserable, forever and ever, I'd be perfectly happy. Ghost boy deserves to burn in hell for what he's done to both Rokka-chan and young boy. Since he was so stupid as to let ghost boy take over his body, young boy deserves to be trapped in those woods as a ghost forever thus never being able to see Rokka-chan again once she leaves. For her callous disregard of ghost boy's treatment of young boy, Rokka-chan deserves to grow old as a loveless spinster, never to have another romantic affair.

Um... Clearly, you didn't watch the end of the episode.

Spoiler for 10 (what actually happened):

Rokka made it clear to Shimao that she loved Hazuki for himself. She demanded that he answer the question of when he took over Hazuki's body, even after Shimao refused. And she demanded to know where Hazuki's spirit was now - what had Shimao done to make this current situation possible. There's no way she'd accept the current situation - not a chance. She just needed a few minutes to get past her astonishment that Shimao had come back to her before she asked the hard questions.

You have zero credibility in any case, so I don't know why even bother responding. You've systematically criticized every aspect of the series pretty much since the premiere, so your agenda here is pretty transparent.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Rokka made it clear to Shimao that she loved Hazuki for himself. She demanded that he answer the question of when he took over Hazuki's body, even after Shimao refused. And she demanded to know where Hazuki's spirit was now - what had Shimao done to make this current situation possible. There's no way she'd accept the current situation - not a chance. She just needed a few minutes to get past her astonishment that Shimao had come back to her before she asked the hard questions.

Personally, I think "demand" is too strong, but, I have to rely on English subs, which may not translate the original Japanese language all that well (she also didn't look like she was demanding anything). And, of course, I disagree that she would not accept the current situation. I don't see any indication from her that she wouldn't. Indeed, it looked more like she was perfectly happy to have her husband back, no matter what or how he got there. Rokka-chan asking about young boy didn't seem to me to be asking " hard questions." It seemed more like an afterthought, "Oh, by the way, where's Hazuki-kun? Oh, and was it you or Hazuki-kun who screwed me?"

At least I admit that I might be wrong, and do not make absolute claims to know how the characters will react, what will happen in future episodes, or how things will turn out in the end. And I will be the first to admit it if I turn out to be wrong.

And, of course, like everyone else here, I am perfectly entitled to my opinions.