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Old 2012-09-01, 18:00   Link #41
Dengar
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Meh, I still don't think it counts since he didn't actually use it in a proper battle, nor did he actually remember how to do it.
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Old 2012-09-01, 18:15   Link #42
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Meh, I still don't think it counts since he didn't actually use it in a proper battle, nor did he actually remember how to do it.
I don't see why that matters.

This mini-discussion stems from itachi-san's post concerning Obito's "genius", even going so far as to compare him to Sasuke (he was actually comparing Tobi to Sasuke, but whatever...). In reality, Sasuke has beaten Obito (whether he is Tobi or not) in nearly every category required for the title of "genius", additionally he has surpassed Obito at nearly every milestone.
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Old 2012-09-01, 18:36   Link #43
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Honestly, Tobi is mostly a one note character (similar to Hidan) that just happens to have a seriously powerful ability. Nothing he has done has indicated any real genius, unless you are calling him an acting genius.
Even without his insane MS ability (which in itself is a bag of tools and not a one trick pony (and discounting the fact that if he still had both MS there is virtually no one who could beat him (and yes I'm doing your favorite thing using parentheses inside a parenthesis))) his base speed is comparable to Yondaime, he's able to summon and control the Kyubi, he has high level sealing jutsu, at least two elemental affinity and his Katon are strong enough to stop blows from a Bijuu. If Obito is all there is to Tobi he was one of the absolute top ninja in history at 14-15 years old. That's the kind of talent only seen every few generations if that.
Hell at this point this whole war is basically 2 Uchiha against the entire world and the world isn't looking so good.
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Meh, I still don't think it counts since he didn't actually use it in a proper battle, nor did he actually remember how to do it.
Admitting that you were wrong isn't going to hurt you. Much.
Sasuke awakened the Sharingan and countered a Genjutsu from Itachi when he was 7. The fact that he lived in peace during the next 5 years and thus wasn't put in a situation where he was forced to improve again has no bearing on that.
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Old 2012-09-01, 23:22   Link #44
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@james ^what Hunter said. i did say obito was a genius, but i also said that he was a late bloomer. i stand by both of those. tobi doesn't just use kamui, but even if he did, kamui and it's various applications are an extremely difficult technique to master (just look at how kakashi has gone about it and he's a genius, I think you'd agree) he fought minato on near equal ground a long time ago, he's fighting KM Naruto, Bee and Hachibi, Kakashi and Gai all at once, ~well, what Hunter said =)

also, I did forget about sasuke's first sharingan use so thanks for the reminder, but that's actually beside the point. and it's still arguable that obito got them faster since he got 2 in each eye at once. sasuke's did not manifest as strongly at first.

and this is assuming that tobi is just obito just to clarify my point
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Old 2012-09-01, 23:27   Link #45
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Sorry, Kishimoto's overuse of certain abilities often causes me to begin underestimating the character simply because their main attack has become "known" (no, I am not talking about the whole dimension thing, but rather the fact that we have seen the attack used so often.).

That being said, I did allude to the fact that Obito (if he was Tobi during the fight with Minato) would have been one of the handful of shinobi that was Kage-level (whatever that means) by the age of 15 (Naruro and Sasuke being other prime examples of this).

Last edited by james0246; 2012-09-01 at 23:41.
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Old 2012-09-02, 05:05   Link #46
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Admitting that you were wrong isn't going to hurt you. Much.
I did admit it. I just think it doesn't really count. It's not like I'm denying that thing the guy mentioned. As for calling Sasuke a "genius". YMMV. Itachi did everything better, remember?
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Old 2012-09-02, 07:05   Link #47
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If we look at Kakashi's fights against Pain or Tobi he would have won those fights if it were not for the enemy having godlike abilities, so compared to Kakashi Tobi is average. Maybe we should not call people like Nagato and Tobi geniuses just because they know how to use their godlike abilities. Nagato was outsmarted by both Naruto and Kakashi, and we see how Kakashi outsmarted Tobi in this fight. Kakashi and Tobi learning kamui is also a completely different matter, Tobi has both Uchiha and Senju DNA in him, sure he can naturally use kamui, whereas for Kakashi even one use is exhausting enough, so learning how to use it and awekening the MS makes him a genius but not Tobi. Also Tobi is a loser, he lost every important battle, he lost against Minato, he already lost control over Sasuke, he lost control over the 4th mizukage, etc. Losing so many times despite having carefully planned things and having super-powers doesn't sound like being a genius
Tobi can be Obito if it's just a matter of skill, sure it sounds impossible but Kishimoto sure could somehow explain it if he wants. Like in the case of Sasuke, where Orochimaru says Sasuke has more talent than Itachi, or other flashbacks about Sasuke and his father.

But the reason why i call the Tobi=Obito bullshit is that there's not even the slightest trace of Obito's personality in Tobi, not even when he fights his sensei just a few years after his "death".
A 15 year old Obito driving the 4th hokage to a decision to sacrifice his and Kushina's life sounds ridiculous
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Old 2012-09-02, 09:28   Link #48
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If we look at Kakashi's fights against Pain or Tobi he would have won those fights if it were not for the enemy having godlike abilities, so compared to Kakashi Tobi is average. Maybe we should not call people like Nagato and Tobi geniuses just because they know how to use their godlike abilities. Nagato was outsmarted by both Naruto and Kakashi, and we see how Kakashi outsmarted Tobi in this fight.
in naruto there are 2 types of geniuses. there are intelligent ones like shikamaru and then there are skilled ones like nagato, which basically means how quickly and how well a ninja can learn and use techniques. rock lee was called a genius by kakashi and rock lee is borderline stupid. kakashi exactly said about lee: 'he might be a genius after all', but still the sentiment is there.

i agree tobi is not as smart as shikamaru or kakashi but it doesn't mean he's not a genius. sasuke and orochimaru are both labeled geniuses and they have each done some stupid things. also, if just using the 'skilled' genius definition, tobi is one of the elite geniuses
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Old 2012-09-02, 10:32   Link #49
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The word GENIUS is being thrown around WAY TOO MUCH in naruto. I get some are really geniuses like madara, izuna and shikamaru but Tobi is not. Like others have pointed out his genius plans always fail. Next thing we are going to be call sakura genius.
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Old 2012-09-02, 10:35   Link #50
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The word GENIUS is being thrown around WAY TOO MUCH in naruto. I get some are really geniuses like madara, izuna and shikamaru but Tobi is not. Like others have pointed out his genius plans always fail. Next thing we are going to be call sakura genius.
But Sakura is a genius. Not like Shikamaru, but close behind.

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Because this stupid post doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. You rarely have anything to say if the chapter doesn't revolve around naruto; what a fanboy
I laughed It's funny seeing twelve year old trying to act all ''grown up''.
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Old 2012-09-02, 11:29   Link #51
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The word GENIUS is being thrown around WAY TOO MUCH in naruto. I get some are really geniuses like madara, izuna and shikamaru but Tobi is not. Like others have pointed out his genius plans always fail. Next thing we are going to be call sakura genius.
Tobi's plan is Madara's who failed just as hard in his time. Being a genius isn't synonym with being successful.
The word genius is thrown around a lot because the story is focused on them instead of the countless regular ninja joe who die by the tens of thousand. Incidentally it does look like Sakura is a prodigy in the analyze and confection of antidote and poison for example.
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If we look at Kakashi's fights against Pain or Tobi he would have won those fights if it were not for the enemy having godlike abilities, so compared to Kakashi Tobi is average
This is meaningless, remove Kakashi's abilities and he is nothing either. Tobi is fighting him + Gai + Killer Bee + Naruto at the same time and the only reason they even have a slight chance of winning is because Kakashi has Obito's 2nd eye. The unbelievable level of power people like Tobi or Nagato can reach show how much of a ninja prodigy they are.
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As for calling Sasuke a "genius". YMMV. Itachi did everything better, remember?
Once upon a time I'd have argued with that but with the author's massive hard-on for Itachi/Minato I can't see the point. Still, Itachi being the better of the two doesn't make Sasuke any less of a genius, just not the best.
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Old 2012-09-02, 12:14   Link #52
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Once upon a time I'd have argued with that but with the author's massive hard-on for Itachi/Minato I can't see the point. Still, Itachi being the better of the two doesn't make Sasuke any less of a genius, just not the best.
So everyone's a genius basically.
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Old 2012-09-02, 12:38   Link #53
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When the "everyone" you talk about all happen to be in the top 15 or 20 most talented ninja that ever existed then yeah they are probably all geniuses
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Old 2012-09-02, 12:44   Link #54
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This is meaningless, remove Kakashi's abilities and he is nothing either. Tobi is fighting him + Gai + Killer Bee + Naruto at the same time and the only reason they even have a slight chance of winning is because Kakashi has Obito's 2nd eye. The unbelievable level of power people like Tobi or Nagato can reach show how much of a ninja prodigy they are.
Basically what i say if Kakashi had the same abilities as Nagato or Tobi he would have beaten them, that's how smart he is. Similarily Itachi even in his last fight was in control of events, both times when Kabuto outpowered them he was the one to save the day and not Sasuke, first when Kabuto broke down their susano defenses and second when they were paralyzed by sound genjutsu.
But i have a deja vu feeling now, i think we already had this discussion
But of course i agree that compared to average ninja both Tobi and Nagato are geniuses despite they have a huge advantage because of their godlike abilities. My point was that i consider Kakashi and a few others smarter than these guys. The problem with the definition of genius is that for example if you live in a poor place in africa you won't get a nobel prize, but with the same talent in a rich western country you have a much better chance.
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Old 2012-09-02, 12:54   Link #55
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My point was that i consider Kakashi and a few others smarter than these guys. The problem with the definition of genius is that for example if you live in a poor place in africa you won't get a nobel prize, but with the same talent in a rich western country you have a much better chance.
i think the problem is with your understanding of the argument, no offense or anything. but take your example for instance. just because the poor african genius probably wont get a nobel prize or world-wide notoriety, doesn't make him any less of a genius. and just because one genius is smarter than another doesn't imply that the other isn't a genius. take too genius scientists for instance. one is surely smarter than the other but they are both geniuses

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So everyone's a genius basically.
the ratio of geniuses to normal ninja is actually pretty realistic. we are talking about let's say the top 20 ninja of all time. 50,000 normal ninja just died in this war and that's just from the number of ninja who were alive as of a couple days ago. top 20 all time is a very low percentage of these geniuses that are now being labeled as 'everybody' by some readers.
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Old 2012-09-02, 13:34   Link #56
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Basically what i say if Kakashi had the same abilities as Nagato or Tobi he would have beaten them, that's how smart he is. Similarily Itachi even in his last fight was in control of events, both times when Kabuto outpowered them he was the one to save the day and not Sasuke, first when Kabuto broke down their susano defenses and second when they were paralyzed by sound genjutsu.
Which is basically the same as saying that Stephen Hawking is a better boxing genius that Muhammad Ali if only he had the same body. You can't take or give away someone's ability to claim someone else is better, it's meaningless.
More than that the example you use is in fact exactly the opposite of your own argument, Itachi won because he had one broken ability tailor-made for his opponent (as usual). Itachi didn't outsmart Kabuto, he outlooked him with a new Deus ex Sharingan. Take this ability away from him like you do with Nagato and Tobi and his last fight becomes completely one sided against him.
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The problem with the definition of genius is that for example if you live in a poor place in africa you won't get a nobel prize, but with the same talent in a rich western country you have a much better chance.
So? the fact that there are people who may have the potential to be genius plano player living in place where they won't even even see a piano has nothing to do with all this.
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Old 2012-09-02, 13:38   Link #57
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the ratio of geniuses to normal ninja is actually pretty realistic. we are talking about let's say the top 20 ninja of all time. 50,000 normal ninja just died in this war and that's just from the number of ninja who were alive as of a couple days ago. top 20 all time is a very low percentage of these geniuses that are now being labeled as 'everybody' by some readers.
You know, this is something to keep in mind.

There are apparently about 80,000 ninjas in the world, assuming the Five Great Countries and their periphery are the whole world.

40,000 of these died in one day - BEFORE the White Zetsu clones and Madara.

I think it's safe to say we're down to at least 20,000 now.

That's incredibly staggering and it makes you wonder if anyone other than the main cast is going to survive.
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Old 2012-09-02, 14:35   Link #58
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Old 2012-09-02, 16:46   Link #59
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Which is basically the same as saying that Stephen Hawking is a better boxing genius that Muhammad Ali if only he had the same body. You can't take or give away someone's ability to claim someone else is better, it's meaningless.
No, the example would be a heavyweight boxer vs lightweight boxer. Kakashi's fights usually end by him running out of chakra or the other guys jutsu being stronger because he has a bloodline.

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More than that the example you use is in fact exactly the opposite of your own argument, Itachi won because he had one broken ability tailor-made for his opponent (as usual). Itachi didn't outsmart Kabuto, he outlooked him with a new Deus ex Sharingan. Take this ability away from him like you do with Nagato and Tobi and his last fight becomes completely one sided against him.
I didn't compare Kabuto and Itachi, i compared Itachi and Sasuke, how they reacted to Kabuto's attacks. Let's say a greater genius and a lesser one
But since you mention it, Itachi did outsmart Kabuto when Kabuto tried to eat Sasuke and also by letting him believe that he could sense where Kabuto is. It's because of Itachi's genius that they survived until the point where Itachi could activate Izanami.

Well apparently my definition of genius is more based on how someone can perform in a ninja battle relative to his abilities while yours is more about how strong someone managed to become. Also i do not count physical abilities like having a rinnegan eye as being a genius. I mean a child Nagato killing a chuunin with his rinnegan doesn't mean he was a genius.
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Old 2012-09-02, 17:29   Link #60
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You know, this is something to keep in mind.

There are apparently about 80,000 ninjas in the world, assuming the Five Great Countries and their periphery are the whole world.

40,000 of these died in one day - BEFORE the White Zetsu clones and Madara.

I think it's safe to say we're down to at least 20,000 now.

That's incredibly staggering and it makes you wonder if anyone other than the main cast is going to survive.
I'd take the number with a grain of salt. That's a huge toll, but I don't expect to hear much about the countless ninja that died or see much lament from the characters about the tragedy. Really, it's like none of those ninja even existed. We only know about them because it was thrown out there that they died. And since Naruto sent his clones to help out at the fronts and most of the Edo Tensei have been defeated, the casualties have probably been greatly cut down. So expect to see plenty of survivors smiling in the happy ending.

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Well apparently my definition of genius is more based on how someone can perform in a ninja battle relative to his abilities while yours is more about how strong someone managed to become. Also i do not count physical abilities like having a rinnegan eye as being a genius. I mean a child Nagato killing a chuunin with his rinnegan doesn't mean he was a genius.
I think it's how far someone can take their abilities that makes them a genius. Even for someone who uses a bloodline as oppposed to a learned jutsu that holds true. Even if they didn't actually learn their ability, it takes a special talent to realize its full potential.
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