AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-09-02, 06:45   Link #2981
Frioniel
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
I have to completely disagree here - there is no inconsistency in an Honorable Guy (to his in group) who supports a crazy ideal - look at Gato for instances and nobody would say Gato is an "inconsistent character" even though his honourable way inevitably led to millions of people starving (Operation Stardust) and he essentially supports the UC universe's version of Hilter. They are people in real life who do terrible things with good intentions, Zeheart is merely such a character. I fully believe that even amongst the ranks of Nazis there probably exists a very caring captain who looks after his subordinates but still goes around rounding up Jews to the concentration camps - humans ARE like that because people are not perfectly rational and sometimes cannot see that they do things which are actually in conflict. You can even turn on the TV and look at the US political situation right now - pick a few of those Tea Party supports and see the same thing - they think they are doing good for the country with methods that are misguided and end up appearing racists/misogynist etc but they themselves don't actually know it. It is VERY common amongst humans. Pure Gihren/Hilter-type evil or pure pacifist/honourable is actually rare - that's why those types of people stands out in history. Zeheart is merely a soldier, again he has no ideals of his own but just carrying out Ezelcant's ideals - he was NOT a person with his own ideal nor the bigger vision to come up with his own path - it is actually consistent that he does things just in the name of Ezelcant. Comparing Zeheart to actual lead evil characters like Durendal/Patrick Zala/Gihren is already missing the point - Zeheart ISN'T like them because he NEVER came up with the ideal in the first place, it was ALL Ezelcant's doings. Zeheart was just an extension of Ezelcant, so you cannot say Zeheart had a convoluted change of character because 90% of the time he was just doing Ezelcant's biddings without thinking critically of the situation himself.

I think people thinking that because Zeheart is honourable in some areas means he can't make mistakes in supporting a crazy like Ezelcant is actually the ones disconnected with how people REALLY works and trying to blame it as inconsistent characterisation is being naive.
All of Vagans are loyal to Ezelcant , not only Zeheart.
But he is only Vagan who dares to suspect Ezelcant 's plan.
and not just only one time. while no any other vagan dares to think

Your Nazi example is good but still has weak points.
if Zeheart is nazi-like character , he will never show any suspection to the supreme commander's plan or even listen to enemy's word about commander's doing.

not just that , he showed some angers toward Ezelcant directly when he knew the truth. (what a nazi he is ???)

so why can't we say he had ideals on his own ?
at least he has sanity more than all of vagan character on the show, no , we could say he has it more than the main protagonist of the series (Flit).

Yes, any honourable guy can make mistake but isn't it too much ? , for the character who has been developed in good way, to change into cheap villain like that. He can not change his mind or even re-thinking
Frioniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-02, 07:32   Link #2982
overloard
Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
I have to completely disagree here - there is no inconsistency in an Honorable Guy (to his in group) who supports a crazy ideal - look at Gato for instances and nobody would say Gato is an "inconsistent character" even though his honourable way inevitably led to millions of people starving (Operation Stardust) and he essentially supports the UC universe's version of Hilter. They are people in real life who do terrible things with good intentions, Zeheart is merely such a character. I fully believe that even amongst the ranks of Nazis there probably exists a very caring captain who looks after his subordinates but still goes around rounding up Jews to the concentration camps - humans ARE like that because people are not perfectly rational and sometimes cannot see that they do things which are actually in conflict. You can even turn on the TV and look at the US political situation right now - pick a few of those Tea Party supports and see the same thing - they think they are doing good for the country with methods that are misguided and end up appearing racists/misogynist etc but they themselves don't actually know it. It is VERY common amongst humans. Pure Gihren/Hilter-type evil or pure pacifist/honourable is actually rare - that's why those types of people stands out in history. Zeheart is merely a soldier, again he has no ideals of his own but just carrying out Ezelcant's ideals - he was NOT a person with his own ideal nor the bigger vision to come up with his own path - it is actually consistent that he does things just in the name of Ezelcant. Comparing Zeheart to actual lead evil characters like Durendal/Patrick Zala/Gihren is already missing the point - Zeheart ISN'T like them because he NEVER came up with the ideal in the first place, it was ALL Ezelcant's doings. Zeheart was just an extension of Ezelcant, so you cannot say Zeheart had a convoluted change of character because 90% of the time he was just doing Ezelcant's biddings without thinking critically of the situation himself.

I think people thinking that because Zeheart is honourable in some areas means he can't make mistakes in supporting a crazy like Ezelcant is actually the ones disconnected with how people REALLY works and trying to blame it as inconsistent characterisation is being naive.
I'm not big expert on human psychology, so i won't argue with you here, it's probably true in regard to real world situations. However, as I said before, this is unnecessarily convoluted characterization for the kind of anime Age is. Prior to recent events and with exclusion of the Olivernotes incident (which, btw, was apparently retconned in novelization to be more in line with the "Honorable Guy" personality) Zeheart, as all AGE characters, had fairly simple and well established personality and served clear purpose in the show - be sympathetic character on vagan side of conflict whom viewer can relate with. He did have goal of his own - create bright future and Eden for vagan people, he said as much to Dole and Asemu, just because it coincided with Ezelcant's "public" goal doesn't mean it wasn't his own. And as i stated few posts ago, Zeheart had show the ability to go against greater plan if it comes in conflict with his personal feelings. His recent development looks unnatural and outlandish in context of AGE universe, where most of the characters are fairly static and change little over the course of series, especially given the fact that it happens in the very short period of time, and transition between ep 44 Zeheart and ep 45 Zeheart doesn't exactly look smoothly. Furthermore, it's completely pointless, because
1) Judging from the spoilers, his decisions doesn't seem to affect overall plot a lot. At all, in fact.
2) It's just a waste of character. Vagans have no shortage of grotesquely evil or outright crazy characters, and any of them could have taken his place. I can't think of any other reason why it should have been Zeheart other than to set up one final battle for SUPER PILOT, which would be kina hard to do if Zeheart defected.

P.S. Haven't watched Stardust Memory yet, so can't provide any opinion on Gato character.

Last edited by overloard; 2012-09-02 at 08:30.
overloard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-02, 07:54   Link #2983
j0x
Giga Drill Breaker
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
lol i have to stop reading about Gundam AGE hate.... its true most of the hate about age is due to poor character development as all hated anime shows...

to me from what i observe on viewers reaction and my liking for AGE is that

Gundam AGE is more Plot-Driven Story since it tackles 3 generations and a lot of story elements from previous gundam shows since it has more sub-plots that made most character development somewhat lacking and not likable by many take for example Wendy remember her? Kio's girlfriend or Girard Spriggan that only lasted at least 2 episodes? so ye...

Gundam 00, Seed, etc in the other hand has more of Character-Driven Story their are longer and enough character development and character interactions that most viewers can relate too and dream of and made characters more memorable

to me im more of a Plot-Driven Story viewer so i like Gundam AGE
j0x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-02, 08:46   Link #2984
Se7en Sabers
Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
I wander if Gundam AGE will become as popular as Gundam Seed and/or Gundam 00 after the end of the series ?

Actually, I doubt it will but we never know
Se7en Sabers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-02, 11:06   Link #2985
houkoholic
seiyuu maniac
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by overloard View Post
I'm not big expert on human psychology, so i won't argue with you here, it's probably true in regard to real world situations. However, as I said before, this is unnecessarily convoluted characterization for the kind of anime Age is. Prior to recent events and with exclusion of the Olivernotes incident (which, btw, was apparently retconned in novelization to be more in line with the "Honorable Guy" personality) Zeheart, as all AGE characters, had fairly simple and well established personality and served clear purpose in the show - be sympathetic character on vagan side of conflict whom viewer can relate with. He did have goal of his own - create bright future and Eden for vagan people, he said as much to Dole and Asemu, just because it coincided with Ezelcant's "public" goal doesn't mean it wasn't his own. And as i stated few posts ago, Zeheart had show the ability to go against greater plan if it comes in conflict with his personal feelings. His recent development looks unnatural and outlandish in context of AGE universe, where most of the characters are fairly static and change little over the course of series, especially given the fact that it happens in the very short period of time, and transition between ep 44 Zeheart and ep 45 Zeheart doesn't exactly look smoothly. Furthermore, it's completely pointless, because
1) Judging from the spoilers, his decisions doesn't seem to affect overall plot a lot. At all, in fact.
2) It's just a waste of character. Vagans have no shortage of grotesquely evil or outright crazy characters, and any of them could have taken his place. I can't think of any other reason why it should have been Zeheart other than to set up one final battle for SUPER PILOT, which would be kina hard to do if Zeheart defected.

P.S. Haven't watched Stardust Memory yet, so can't provide any opinion on Gato character.
The problem is I don't think you are supposed to sympathise with Zeheart, it is true that like many of the antagonists in past Gundam franchises he is used to gave a human face to the enemy but that doesn't mean you must sympathise with him, rather he is to present the point of view that "people with a good heart can do evil things" which is a VERY common theme through out the entire Gundam franchise - again the traditional Shakespearean tragic character. His ideal of "giving Vagan a bright future" was definitely NOT his own - recall the flash back when Zeheart as a child Ezelcant already used his X Rounder ability to show Zeheart pretty pictures of Ezelcant's vision of paradise, telling him the sufferings of the Vagans etc, he did not come up with this conclusion/ideal himself like the other lead evil characters in the list, so Zeheart was most definitely brainwashed since young. And if you think about it the fact that he now knows that Ezelcant is going to die soon would certainly make Zeheart feel quite desperate because again Ezelcant had always been the person to give him the orders and the goal, him wanting to achieve Ezelcant's dying wish no matter the cost, hopefully a decisive victory before Ezelcant death would certainly make sense.

Also I don't buy the excuse that you should use only evil characters to show that only evil characters do evil deeds, indeed showing good people doing evil things (whether knowingly or not) SHOULD be what Gundam is really about. While AGE does have crappy characterisation it is not true that AGE only had simplistic single motive characters, especially since Gen 3. What about Shanalua for example? Or even Reina (sic)? I think most people are just upset about Zeheart's dismiss because he had fallen from his grace and shows the Vagans for what they are - a body of (rightfully) disgruntle people whom is using the wrong method to achieve their goal and hurting innocent people in the process, Zeheart included.
__________________
My twitter - not really seiyuu-centred so follow at your own risk
Celebrities I've talked to in person
Mizuki Nana, Chiba Saeko, Shimizu Ai, Shimokawa Mikuni, Chihara Minori, Tamura Yukari, Nakahara Mai, Sakai Kanako

Last edited by houkoholic; 2012-09-02 at 11:18.
houkoholic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-02, 11:48   Link #2986
Revolutionist
Puppet Master
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
The problem is I don't think you are supposed to sympathise with Zeheart, it is true that like many of the antagonists in past Gundam franchises he is used to gave a human face to the enemy but that doesn't mean you must sympathise with him, rather he is to present the point of view that "people with a good heart can do evil things" which is a VERY common theme through out the entire Gundam franchise - again the traditional Shakespearean tragic character. His ideal of "giving Vagan a bright future" was definitely NOT his own - recall the flash back when Zeheart as a child Ezelcant already used his X Rounder ability to show Zeheart pretty pictures of Ezelcant's vision of paradise, telling him the sufferings of the Vagans etc, he did not come up with this conclusion/ideal himself like the other lead evil characters in the list, so Zeheart was most definitely brainwashed since young. And if you think about it the fact that he now knows that Ezelcant is going to die soon would certainly make Zeheart feel quite desperate because again Ezelcant had always been the person to give him the orders and the goal, him wanting to achieve Ezelcant's dying wish no matter the cost, hopefully a decisive victory before Ezelcant death would certainly make sense.
If we are not supposed to sympathize with him, why did they make him into a sympathetic character? He's not used to show good people can do bad things, in fact the only thing he's done is the Olivernotes incident, and that was retconned to be more in line with his character in the novels. Zeheart is most definitely not brainwashed, you must not understand what that word means or something. If he were, he wouldn't have noticed the anything wrong with Project Eden and he would never have confronted Ezelcant about it and said the things he said.

Quote:
Also I don't buy the excuse that you should use only evil characters to show that only evil characters do evil deeds, indeed showing good people doing evil things (whether knowingly or not) SHOULD be what Gundam is really about. While AGE does have crappy characterisation it is not true that AGE only had simplistic single motive characters, especially since Gen 3. What about Shanalua for example? Or even Reina (sic)? I think most people are just upset about Zeheart's dismiss because he had fallen from his grace and shows the Vagans for what they are - a body of (rightfully) disgruntle people whom is using the wrong method to achieve their goal and hurting innocent people in the process, Zeheart included.
You can't get any more simplistic than betraying your country for a sack of gold coins, or defecting to the enemy for revenge lol.
__________________
I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark
Revolutionist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-02, 11:49   Link #2987
gordol
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/1457/1346557497689.gif

More novel 4 spoilers/differences
gordol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-02, 16:25   Link #2988
Kuroi Hadou
Dark Energy
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: United States
Send a message via AIM to Kuroi Hadou Send a message via Skype™ to Kuroi Hadou
Quote:
Originally Posted by gordol View Post
It would help if that were actually legible.
__________________
Kuroi Hadou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-02, 16:26   Link #2989
kaito-kid
As I make you stop, think
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Europe - The Netherlands
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raysoul View Post
I didn't say this is a realistic war. I am just referring to Meltyred ranting why every side-character dies. Even in a fictional, story-telling scenario, anyone could die. I can agree with you that someone's death shouldn't be pointless and should be relevant, but I think AGE has good/adequate reasons to kill off their characters. It's not like they are just being killed by a grunt or something.
You seemed to be implying that killing off characters randomly for the sake realisms is ok (from a writer's standpoint), because that's what happens in war. I just pointed out why such mentality doesn't produce well written material. I was speaking generally about this idea, not specifically about Age as I haven't seen the death scenes yet (obviously).
We'll see how it all works out in Age. Reading some of the reactions here, I don't have high hopes, but as I've said already, I'm not going to prejudge.
__________________
kaito-kid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-02, 16:36   Link #2990
Raysoul
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
You seemed to be implying that killing off characters randomly for the sake realisms is ok (from a writer's standpoint), because that's what happens in war. I just pointed out why such mentality doesn't produce well written material. I was speaking generally about this idea, not specifically about Age as I haven't seen the death scenes yet (obviously).
We'll see how it all works out in Age. Reading some of the reactions here, I don't have high hopes, but as I've said already, I'm not going to prejudge.
Nope, I don't imply that killing characters randomly is ok. I am just saying that from a writer's standpoint, they can kill their characters if they want to for the sake of the plot, drama, story, material, etc.
__________________
Gundam Age > 00 + Seed Combined
Raysoul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-02, 16:44   Link #2991
Aquaman OS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Whoa whoa did
Spoiler for spoiler:


Or is this a difference already?
Aquaman OS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-03, 05:13   Link #2992
gordol
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
gordol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-03, 09:55   Link #2993
Plant42
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ashiarai-Yashiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by gordol View Post
This is great.
Aside of the changes in story there are many interestings info about techs.

-Clanche is a cross suit of Adele and Zedas developed by Madorna and Techno Solon.

-Dark Hound's spear is a DODS spear that fixed with DODS field by the same system as Titus. It's true nature is a molecule breaking weapon.
The things we can see as the spear is merely a リフェーザー(resonance particle) generator.

-Orbital is freaking powerful!!. It use the field that was generated to create a psuedo repulsive force that use to accelerated, and using that to bending beam.
That's allow it's to shoot safely while staying in the cover. When being aimed by the enemy it can evade easily by the freaking maneuver. not tomentioned that it also has an amazing armor.
Plant42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-03, 13:49   Link #2994
Super Pilot Pirate
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Any more info on the final battle pairings from the Novel? Like Kio vs Zera, Asemu vs Zeheart and Flit saving the People?
Super Pilot Pirate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-03, 20:53   Link #2995
GN0010 Nosferatu
Burning Red!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Hargenteen
Age: 25
The Clanche is a cross between the Adele and Zedas?


Can't say I saw that coming.

I assumed AGE-2 and Genoace.
GN0010 Nosferatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-03, 21:22   Link #2996
Meltyred
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Wow Orbital was that good and Kio made it look so weak....
Great = =
Meltyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-03, 22:19   Link #2997
Plant42
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ashiarai-Yashiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu View Post
The Clanche is a cross between the Adele and Zedas?


Can't say I saw that coming.

I assumed AGE-2 and Genoace.
Honestly the novel and MG construction manual also mentioned that the AGE-2 was developed base off Zedas.
Plant42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-04, 01:25   Link #2998
faceroll
Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Calipornia
Age: 20
well the age 2 does have a tail and a flight mode.
but tail is used only as part of the flight mode transformation.
faceroll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-05, 21:56   Link #2999
Nvis
Grumpy Senior
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Kio made Oribital look sh**.

As I thought, the best beam-bending is the Forbidden Gundam.
Nvis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-06, 03:05   Link #3000
houkoholic
seiyuu maniac
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
If we are not supposed to sympathize with him, why did they make him into a sympathetic character?
I think you are just confusing sympathetic with tragic (again the Shakespearen sense that I keep pointing out). Him continuing to serve Ezelcant even in Gen 2 is plenty prove that he is NOT a sympathetic character but a tragic one set up to fail. It's tragic that he choose to serve the misguided vision of the Vagans (even sans Project Eden) and again as I pointed out he could've been the voice of reason for peace for the Vagans, but he choosed - not forced - not to and stuck with Ezelcant's leadership, when you consciously made a decision that would inevitably lead to the bad ending of your own construction you aren't sympathetic but tragic (again the Shakespearen sense), sympathetic to me means that there were circumstances and situations which were outside of the control of the character, yet Zeheart's situation is purely because he consciously choose to follow Ezelcant's leadership despite him having a VERY good and possible second option, that makes him not sympathetic but tragic. You seem to keep missing this point.

For a contrasting example, take Asemu, I'm sympathetic to Asemu Gen 2 situation since Flit is/was the perfect dad whom was better than Asemu in nearly everything thus making Asemu feel inferior, that is something of which Asemu has absolutely no control over and why that makes Asemu a sympathetic character in Gen 2.

Quote:
He's not used to show good people can do bad things, in fact the only thing he's done is the Olivernotes incident, and that was retconned to be more in line with his character in the novels.
I actually think the novel retconn makes him (and the Vagan soldiers by extension) more inconsistent because are you seriously telling me Zeheart has absolutely no idea of Ezelcant's previous mission focus on attacking innocent colonies with him already being put in a fairly high level of command since Gen2? With the story so heavily telling the viewer that Ezelcant personally having a high regard for Zeheart and Zeheart being some sort of elite are you seriously telling me that Zeheart had been fully sheltered from the past ways of the Vagan military tactic which never changed for, well, since the beginning of the series? I stick with my assessment that Zeheart only has sympathy towards the in group which is just a normal human trait (though to his credit he does have a much higher sense of caring towards his fellow kins), him caring for Asemu and Rosmary was because he formed another group bonding with them, so him having less regards to the Earthnoid civilians which is outside of his group/clan is not out of character. Human kindness extends in such weird ways all the time. Fiercely patriotic people is a good example whom would forgive nearly anything their country or fellow countryman does and at the same time have little regard for the enemies of his country, Zeheart is just one of those types.

Quote:
Zeheart is most definitely not brainwashed, you must not understand what that word means or something. If he were, he wouldn't have noticed the anything wrong with Project Eden
He didn't until Asemu told him that Ezelcant was lying to him and got his hands on that mysterious recording. He would've kept believing in Ezelcant's cover story if Ezelcant never decide to tell him Project Eden himself. I think you are the one who don't understand what brainwashed means?

Quote:
and he would never have confronted Ezelcant about it and said the things he said.
And he quickly accepted Ezelcant's weak explanation that just because Ezelcant didn't want to be the tyrant to rule them all somehow the plan to kill out the weak and select the strong was all noble and pure. Please how is that showing Zeheart for being not brainwashed?

Ok not brainwashed but seriously ignorant and naive. Still doesn't change the fact that he from start to end blindly follows Ezelcant.

Quote:
You can't get any more simplistic than betraying your country for a sack of gold coins, or defecting to the enemy for revenge lol.
Both did it for their loved one and not pure evil intentions but their nice intentions (one to save her sister and the other to eradicate the corrupt Fed) makes the outcome turns for the worse harming innocents which is the argument here, no different for Zeheart in this case for he is doing it for his love for Ezelcant.

EDIT: I think I know why you keep having problems with Zeheart's characterisation for being like this, because Zeheart is just merely a less angry Vagan version of Flit and you don't like that fact. Both are supposedly highly intellectual and caring towards their own group (in the novel it was said Flit remembers all the names of the families whom were killed by Vagans, just like Zeheart remembers the names of his subordinates whom were killed) and both were supposedly fight for the better outcome of their own group with little regard for the opposing side. Heck it could be argued that Flit got his fair share of brainwashing from his mum telling him to be the Messiah/Saviour not unlike Ezelcant telling Zeheart to be the beacon of light. Yep, they are just the same on the opposite side and that makes you uncomfortable due to how similar they are AND in the end it turned out Flit whom you hate was the one who could change for the better but not Zeheart and that makes you really uncomfortable.
__________________
My twitter - not really seiyuu-centred so follow at your own risk
Celebrities I've talked to in person
Mizuki Nana, Chiba Saeko, Shimizu Ai, Shimokawa Mikuni, Chihara Minori, Tamura Yukari, Nakahara Mai, Sakai Kanako

Last edited by houkoholic; 2012-09-06 at 03:48.
houkoholic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.