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Old 2012-09-01, 19:18   Link #30301
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Ikuko puts herself above humans, which is the opposite as Yasu's furniture complex, in which she imagines herself as someone *below* humans. I disagree.
That's true for Kanon and Shannon, but what about Beatrice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
There's an interview were Ryuukishi07 said "Yes, it was Battler".
Cite the interview and show the quote and I'll believe you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Because that's all her character is about and is been hinted for the enterity of the series: that she was all for dying with them if nobody solved the epitaph. And if they solved it... if they solved it she would do nothing and let them do as they pleased. In case of Battler, George or maybe even Jessica solving it, she'd let her funiture die and take the identity for the winner... and let them do as they pleased with her. Disturbing contents included.
I wouldn't go as far to completely dismiss the suicide theme, but it's still a bit of an assumption to suppose that Shannon committing suicide in a fictional story indicates that Yasu wanted to commit suicide in real life. For example, in EP2 on the fantasy side Shannon is murdered by Beatrice, but the mystery side points to Shannon's (Yasu's) suicide. Yet, Beatrice continues to exist in EP2 even after Yasu's physical death. Our Confessions has a similar phenomenon where Shannon loyally allows herself to be physically killed by Beatrice, but Beatrice continues to exist anyway, and moves on to "revive" everyone for the next story.

Also, even if everything you just said is true, if it was Battler who solved the epitaph then would Yasu still commit suicide? She'd completely become Beatrice... but how would that even work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
"Battler is alive" is a plot twist right at the epilogue.
If you consider Author Theory as a premise, someone being alive is one of a relatively short list of possible explanations. And considering his presence in the meta-world, it's not surprising if it's Battler.

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
"So little time" was the two years that she had the gold where we have no idea what she was doing. She didn't think either of her relationships with George or Jessica could work in the long term, and we know that a mysterious incident would have occurred even if Battler hadn't returned to the island. I don't think it's a huge stretch to think she was contemplating vanishing from the island long before the incident actually occurred.
That's true. It's a much more sensible backup plan than suicide. If none of her suitors would work out for her, maybe her plan was to simply vanish and start a new life. Of course this is equivalent to "death" for Kanon, Shannon, and Beatrice, though. Well, maybe not Shannon if she was planning for the possibility of eloping with George.

Like, say, by early 1986 she had given up on Battler and was in the middle of preparing her new life (either alone or with George). To tie up lose ends she was planning some kind of incident for the family conference to choose the next head, but then in July, or whenever it was, she suddenly heard that Battler was coming back, which lead her to pull out all the stops in an all-or-nothing attempt to "shoot the moon" and get Battler to remember.

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Find me one line in the novel or tips that states, suggests or hints that it's NOT Battler and I'll consider it a little step above asspull.
Battler is dead!!!
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Old 2012-09-01, 19:38   Link #30302
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Battler is dead!!!
Personality death beats everything.

But okay, I admit that this ranks it higher than an aspull.
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Old 2012-09-01, 19:44   Link #30303
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Wow, you sound really confident, though last time I checked, you didn't write Umineko....

Well, I'll agree with you as to the fact that I'm not too confident on what Ryukishi said, but I'm not going to dismiss off the bat either. Devil's proof and whatnot.
There's no way to ascertain the truth in a situation where all information is equally valid or invalid, and I'd like to see someone come up with Yasu's backround without using anything in Chiru. :P

Quote:
Example?
"Men care about prestige and women care about feelings" is something he said was a running trend in Umineko and yet completely and utterly contradicts almost every significant example of romance and gender roles in the entire novel.

Quote:
If you consider Author Theory as a premise, someone being alive is one of a relatively short list of possible explanations. And considering his presence in the meta-world, it's not surprising if it's Battler.
It's not a premise, it's a development. A premise by definition has to be introduced at the beginning of the story. That's why we have a certain Knox rule; the unwritten premise of those novels is "One of these people is a killer. Find out who!"
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Last edited by AuraTwilight; 2012-09-01 at 20:24.
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Old 2012-09-01, 19:44   Link #30304
Patchwork Chimera
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Cite the interview and show the quote and I'll believe you.
It was already cited before. Go back a few pages...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I wouldn't go as far to completely dismiss the suicide theme, but it's still a bit of an assumption to suppose that Shannon committing suicide in a fictional story indicates that Yasu wanted to commit suicide in real life. For example, in EP2 on the fantasy side Shannon is murdered by Beatrice, but the mystery side points to Shannon's (Yasu's) suicide. Yet, Beatrice continues to exist in EP2 even after Yasu's physical death. Our Confessions has a similar phenomenon where Shannon loyally allows herself to be physically killed by Beatrice, but Beatrice continues to exist anyway, and moves on to "revive" everyone for the next story.

Also, even if everything you just said is true, if it was Battler who solved the epitaph then would Yasu still commit suicide? She'd completely become Beatrice... but how would that even work?
Beatrice not only has a role as Battler's ideal chick. She's also the gameboard, remember all those comparations of solving the game and solving Beatrice's existence itself -destroy the game, you destroy Beatrice with it. So Yasu is dead, but Beatrice is still alive because the 'game' hasn't stopped.

If Battler solved the epitaph, she'd point to kuwadorian and send him there. If he wanted to take with him all the family, or stop the bomb, Yasu would find a way to off herself and make it look like another sacrifice.
If Battler remembered Yasu, the miracle that she was striving for would become real. She'd die happy, knowing that he didn't forget her... but she'd still kill herself, as punishment for the crimes.
Maybe in Rokkenjima-Prime, as you call it, that's what happened.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
That's true. It's a much more sensible backup plan than suicide. If none of her suitors would work out for her, maybe her plan was to simply vanish and start a new life. Of course this is equivalent to "death" for Kanon, Shannon, and Beatrice, though. Well, maybe not Shannon if she was planning for the possibility of eloping with George.

Like, say, by early 1986 she had given up on Battler and was in the middle of preparing her new life (either alone or with George). To tie up lose ends she was planning some kind of incident for the family conference to choose the next head, but then in July, or whenever it was, she suddenly heard that Battler was coming back, which lead her to pull out all the stops in an all-or-nothing attempt to "shoot the moon" and get Battler to remember.

Battler is dead!!!
Without the quotation intervals... you just answared yourself. So what if 'Battler is dead'? Everyone knows that a declaration of death in Umineko is not something to take blindly and all that amnesia thing makes Battler effectively dead. His body continues on, as Tohya, but Battler is dead and stays half-dead for long decades till that last part in the TP???.
But metaphysical/metaphorical weirdness aside, no matter how brain damaged he was, that body was legaly and biologicaly Battler. And that's what we are discussing, wether Tohya is or not a new personality of Battler. Tohya is in Battler's body, with all the insane Umineko-ish twists it entails. Bluntly put, Battler doesn't remember himself but he's still alive There's not proof that he isn't. That's what Ryuukishi said to Keiya in the interview. That "Yes, it was Battler"!

Personality death is such a pain... so yeah, you found a statement that said that Battler is not Tohya... everyone already knows it, if is in the know about personality death and all that madness about being one yet many in Umineko, but whatever.
as I promised, I'll consider that 'Tohya is not Battler theory', as a little above asspull. How about nonsense? Or maybe "Something as likely as Krauss' investments suddenly making profit for him"?

For god's- we are going in circles here. And before somebody says anything, going in circles is not logic.
Maybe it is. Of the insane troll type.
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-09-01 at 20:00.
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Old 2012-09-01, 20:11   Link #30305
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
There's no way to ascertain the truth in a situation where all information is equally valid or invalid, and I'd like to see someone come up with Yasu's backround without using anything in Chiru. :P
Yeah, checking it is impossible, but techincally, you can find.... Yeah, forget it. That's why I'm saying I'm not confident in it. I'd just like to think that if you get to the truth, you'll kinda know, like all the pieces falling together.

As for Yasu, well, I don't want to sound boastful (what the heck, I totally do), but I'd reasoned out her promise, personality quarrel and had some ideas for her motive without using Chiru clues.

But yeah, that's as far as it goes, I could never imagine the dad on daughter action going on in Kuwadorian. At best I thought she was Kinzo and Beatrice's child he tried to thrust on Natsuhi after the second's death, which is accurate minus one generation, but that was in EP5 so screw it. But I guess a really smart person would pay attention to the 'humunclus' stuff and try to make some sense out of them.

Quote:
"Men care about prestige and women care about feelings" is something he said was a running trend in Umineko and yet completely and utterly contradicts almost every significant example of romance and gender roles in the entire novel.
I wouldn't call that lying, since he isn't doing that intentionally, and well, is just one of those 'cute' lines Ryukishi tends to use.
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Old 2012-09-01, 20:26   Link #30306
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As for Yasu, well, I don't want to sound boastful (what the heck, I totally do), but I'd reasoned out her promise, personality quarrel and had some ideas for her motive without using Chiru clues.
Yea, assuming Yasu is the culprit. And there's loads of reason to believe she's taking the cover for someone else. Ryukishi has even implied it, saying that she "Wants to portray herself as the sole culprit."

That alone implies there's another culprit besides herself even if she did do shit. But there's no way to pin down what happened in any meaningful way.
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Old 2012-09-01, 20:43   Link #30307
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I always thought the "portray herself as the sole culprit" meant "make it seems like she didn't have any accomplices", because it is obvious that there's always someone helping her in every game, even if it isn't the same person every time.
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Old 2012-09-01, 22:05   Link #30308
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
It was already cited before. Go back a few pages...
Yes I know about that. You don't seem to have read my response to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Beatrice not only has a role as Battler's ideal chick. She's also the gameboard, remember all those comparations of solving the game and solving Beatrice's existence itself -destroy the game, you destroy Beatrice with it. So Yasu is dead, but Beatrice is still alive because the 'game' hasn't stopped.

If Battler solved the epitaph, she'd point to kuwadorian and send him there. If he wanted to take with him all the family, or stop the bomb, Yasu would find a way to off herself and make it look like another sacrifice.
If Battler remembered Yasu, the miracle that she was striving for would become real. She'd die happy, knowing that he didn't forget her... but she'd still kill herself, as punishment for the crimes.
Maybe in Rokkenjima-Prime, as you call it, that's what happened.
It's a respectable interpretation. But I personally don't think Yasu actually committed any crimes, although she might in some ways feel responsible for the tragedy.

Remember in EP8 in the cave on Oct. 6 when Battler assures Beatrice that she didn't commit any crimes "in this world", and Beatrice was relieved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Without the quotation intervals... you just answared yourself.
Yes I know. I was only being half-serious.

-----------------------------------------------------

By the way, I was looking over some Japanese sites for thoughts on Ikuko=Yasu and found this interpretation on the EP8 boat scene:

(Translation by me. Corrections welcome.)

Spoiler:
I really think the ingot="Beatrice" idea is an interesting interpretation. Though I'm still curious as to why Battler would attempt suicide later. Also, it seems a little out of character for Battler to care so much about gold, but on the other hand, what we know of Battler is probably idealized. Oh and on the realism front, I don't think a human could out-chase a sinking metal ingot.

But still, interesting.
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Old 2012-09-01, 22:07   Link #30309
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I do not believe that Ryuukishi would simply throw an Ikuko and the expect us to conclude that she must be Yasu.
My only one concrete issue with Ikuko = random, which does seem likely canon, is that whatever happened to all that stuff about the solution not being a new person to be introduced. Yes you can argue that that only relates to the gameboards and not the story itself, but I still feel like regardless of who she is there should be some hints about her existence in ep 1-4. I mean, we even had metabattler have a giant "WHO AM IIIIIIIIIIIIII" incident (by the way I loved Beato summarising all her giant mysteries and grizzly murders into one children's game question") so where is our Ikuko clue?

Beatrice not only has a role as Battler's ideal chick. She's also the gameboard

She's also the rules of the gameboard I believe, so she survives as long as the rules do. Interestingly enough in the two episodes where she wasn't the golden witch (by succession or simply dying) it was because someone else took the blame for the crimes.

Quote:
As for Yasu, well, I don't want to sound boastful, but I'd reasoned out her promise, personality quarrel and had some ideas for her motive without using Chiru clues.
If you had the promise and quarrels you can't have been missing much of her motive.

Quote:
'humunclus' stuff and try to make some sense out of them.
Well looking back that conversation can be summarised thusly:
"Kinzo made a human body as a blank slate (ie a child (or amnesiac I guess)) and tried to trap Beatrice in it, but it didn't work". Even if it wasn't guessable at the time, it sure was hinted.

Quote:
Men care about prestige and women care about feelings
Well yes Hideyoshi cared about feelings and Eva cared about prestige, but she never was the proper lady. Every couple had elements of both, but certainly Krauss and Natsuhi fit it well, as did Kanon and Jessica. George was all about being a proper man and heck, Rudolf switched a baby so he wouldn't have to divorce his wife. I know you can say that Natsuhi cared a lot about honour, but her motivations were never for status or money, but more for my husband.
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Old 2012-09-02, 01:46   Link #30310
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My only one concrete issue with Ikuko = random, which does seem likely canon, is that whatever happened to all that stuff about the solution not being a new person to be introduced. Yes you can argue that that only relates to the gameboards and not the story itself, but I still feel like regardless of who she is there should be some hints about her existence in ep 1-4.
That's not what that rule EVER meant. It refers to the culprit exclusively, not 'aspects of the solution'.

Even if it did, Ikuko is not the solution. Who she is 100% does not matter to the situation.

Quote:
Well yes Hideyoshi cared about feelings and Eva cared about prestige, but she never was the proper lady. Every couple had elements of both, but certainly Krauss and Natsuhi fit it well, as did Kanon and Jessica. George was all about being a proper man and heck, Rudolf switched a baby so he wouldn't have to divorce his wife. I know you can say that Natsuhi cared a lot about honour, but her motivations were never for status or money, but more for my husband.
It's a complete sham. Krauss put his family first and Natsuhi was always thinking of the family's honor; George focused on his personal feelings over the legacy of his family, Battler has no attachment to the Ushiromiyas, and Kinzo was so devoted to Beatrice that the whole family could burn for all he cared.

Almost every instance that could possibly relate to Ryukishi's presumed gender roles is entirely wrong, and he only said it in an interview regarding Beatrice's suicide, so I tend to think he was bullshitting in that specific instance without thinking in the context of the greater novel.

Even if it didn't contradict his novel? It's incredibly fucking sexist and he should've kept his mouth shut.
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Old 2012-09-02, 02:42   Link #30311
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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
I always thought the "portray herself as the sole culprit" meant "make it seems like she didn't have any accomplices", because it is obvious that there's always someone helping her in every game, even if it isn't the same person every time.
Our confessions explains that Yasu blackmails people in the different games into being an accomplice so that she can carry out the murders. it makes sense that Ryukishi would imply that she has accomplices then.
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Old 2012-09-02, 03:04   Link #30312
GreyZone
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Evidence for Ikuko=Yasuda:

1. Ikuko = "many children"

2. I don't think it is a stretch to assume that Tohya's early memories of meeting Ikuko may have been at least a little manipulated.

3. At the beginning Ikuko seemed quite shy to me. It took time until she changed to the personality she had at the end.

4. We have no idea what Yasu did in the last 2 years before the incident. But if she planned to leave the island, she would have to have a stable identity. Both Shannon and Kanon were adaptable for outside Rokkenjima, "Beatrice" however, as she mentioned herself, cannot just leave Rokkenjima. So she would either leave as "herself" (Yasu) or create a new identity alltogether (Ikuko). And if she wanted to live with that new identity, she would have to CREATE it first (Ikuko's house etc.)

5. Yukari mentions about Ikuko having a "timeless feeling" and seemed like she would never age. We know that Yasu had talent in "appearing as being younger".

6. The last scene in the orphange suggests that Ange replaces Yukari, Battler replaces Tohya and Beatrice replaces Ikuko.





Oh and by the way: "Tohya" was foreshadowed in EP6 when Ange asked why in publicity there was a "young man" instead of a woman as Hachijo Tohya
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Old 2012-09-02, 04:49   Link #30313
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yea, assuming Yasu is the culprit. And there's loads of reason to believe she's taking the cover for someone else. Ryukishi has even implied it, saying that she "Wants to portray herself as the sole culprit."

That alone implies there's another culprit besides herself even if she did do shit. But there's no way to pin down what happened in any meaningful way.
At least she's the culprit in the forgeries.

But well, the whole game is about filling the cat-box with what you believe happened, I guess.

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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
I always thought the "portray herself as the sole culprit" meant "make it seems like she didn't have any accomplices", because it is obvious that there's always someone helping her in every game, even if it isn't the same person every time.
You know, that's interesting... but wait.... she does have accomplices in the forgeries. So it doesn't really work.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Almost every instance that could possibly relate to Ryukishi's presumed gender roles is entirely wrong, and he only said it in an interview regarding Beatrice's suicide, so I tend to think he was bullshitting in that specific instance without thinking in the context of the greater novel.

Even if it didn't contradict his novel? It's incredibly fucking sexist and he should've kept his mouth shut.
While I'll agree on that, it doesn't qualify as 'lying' in his interview. To not know what the fuck you're talking about is vastly different from 'lying'.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
If you had the promise and quarrels you can't have been missing much of her motive.
Well, her motive is a little more complex than that. Back then, I assumed there is a turning point which made her commit the crimes, because being stood up for six years and going nutshit with many personalities doesn't make for an adequate reason. It took some EPs to figure out the 'miracle' ceremony and everything.

Quote:
Well looking back that conversation can be summarised thusly:
"Kinzo made a human body as a blank slate (ie a child (or amnesiac I guess)) and tried to trap Beatrice in it, but it didn't work". Even if it wasn't guessable at the time, it sure was hinted.
Yeah, that was my point.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Evidence for Ikuko=Yasuda:

1. Ikuko = "many children"

2. "19^9": during the incident "Beatrice" was 19 years old.

3. I don't think it is a stretch to assume that Tohya's early memories of meeting Ikuko may have been at least a little manipulated.

4. At the beginning Ikuko seemed quite shy to me. It took time until she changed to the personality she had at the end.

5. We have no idea what Yasu did in the last 2 years before the incident. But if she planned to leave the island, she would have to have a stable identity. Both Shannon and Kanon were adaptable for outside Rokkenjima, "Beatrice" however, as she mentioned herself, cannot just leave Rokkenjima. So she would either leave as "herself" (Yasu) or create a new identity alltogether (Ikuko). And if she wanted to live with that new identity, she would have to CREATE it first (Ikuko's house etc.)

6. Yukari mentions about Ikuko having a "timeless feeling" and seemed like she would never age. We know that Yasu had talent in "appearing as being younger".

7. The last scene in the orphange suggests that Ange replaces Yukari, Battler replaces Tohya and Beatrice replaces Ikuko.
That still doesn't qualify as evidence. If anything, it's just the 'clues' that led you to this theory. I'll borrow Jan-Poo's words here, crude mathematical facts that are not by any chance thematic narrative hints do not qualify as sufficient evidence.

The stuff about the name is almost as ridiculous as KnownNoMore's 'Rose Symbolism'. I would accept it if any of the other hints was adequate to support that theory. However, most things on this list are assumptions.
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Old 2012-09-02, 05:28   Link #30314
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Who she is 100% does not matter to the situation.
I know you aren't being aggressive, but your posts always sound so angry. Besides, if you actually read that part of my post more carefully you will see that I tried to say it doesn't matter who she is, that I was just surprised it was never hinted that his meta-character was being supported through all these games by a meta-Ikuko. It is her mere existence I wanted hints of. I know that rule only applied to the gameboards, but pulling a random mystery character who is sort of essential for readers to understand author theory out of thin air is sort of annoying unless it was hinted.

The only hints that I can come up with on the spot are meta Beato herself, which is a messy road, or from the third game Virigillia. That would make sense in terms of the fact that she only helps from the third game, but not in terms of who she actually represents and that Ryu sort of invented her to help a struggling fanbase.

So either I'm not seeing them, or he just never hinted at it. That isn't annoying from a Knox standpoint, so much as for the reason that rule exists: People hate characters who pop up out of nowhere but are needed for the solution.
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Old 2012-09-02, 06:16   Link #30315
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
P.S: A bit irrelevant but, I just checked out Chapter4 of KnownNoMore, and.... Oh - My - God! That guy's pulling so much stuff out of his ass I wonder how it's still intact! I mean, anyone else here heard of what he calls the 'Rose Symbolism'? I seriously want to gouge out my ears....
A bit too lazy to get through the entire video, personally. Care to explain..? Or should I just fast forward to a certain part?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
There's no way to ascertain the truth in a situation where all information is equally valid or invalid, and I'd like to see someone come up with Yasu's backround without using anything in Chiru. :P
The entire, specific thing, lol no. Though the general gist IS something you can get without Chiru. Myself, I just couldn't fit Beatrice II into it, since as has been noted, it was never hinted that she may have had a child. Or even know where babies come from, really.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Our confessions explains that Yasu blackmails people in the different games into being an accomplice so that she can carry out the murders. it makes sense that Ryukishi would imply that she has accomplices then.
To be fair, Our Confessions explains the blackmailing as a plausible way to get Kratsuhi to be accomplices.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
At least she's the culprit in the forgeries.

But well, the whole game is about filling the cat-box with what you believe happened, I guess.
I remember one interview, and the comment kinda stuck, where Ryu described Umineko as the story of a girl "driven to the point of being able to imagine an incident like that", or something along those lines. So I always thought a critical part of the story, as we have it, doesn't even concern Prime, but rather Yasu being able to SEE herself getting to that point.

So basically, like if Kyrie had started imagining Higurashi style arcs about how she murdered Asumu. You read the lyrics to 'Golden Nocturne', and you REALLY get the impression that Yasu's tragedy wasn't just a Nazi bomb, or romantic indecision, but SEVERELY overthinking crap.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Well, her motive is a little more complex than that. Back then, I assumed there is a turning point which made her commit the crimes, because being stood up for six years and going nutshit with many personalities doesn't make for an adequate reason. It took some EPs to figure out the 'miracle' ceremony and everything.
lol, it's pretty easy to land on "Shannon + something to do with that damn promise" by the end of Alliance - there's NOWHERE else to really logically go. However, the motive is pretty incomprehensible. I couldn't describe for the life of me what she WANTED to have happen.
[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
BTE, there's a difference between assuptions made on shaky fundations and freaking castles in the air.
Clearly SOMEONE has not seen Utena. Which would be a crazy awesome piece of Umineko crossover material, just sayin'.

Old point, but I still don't get why we're doubting Battler's personality so much. Sure, we can doubt his presentation MORE than the others because he has a six year gap instead of a 1 year gap like the rest, but ... really, why? His piece doesn't exactly go to a new corner of the MBTI in Chiru, either. He's always been a mystery buff, always offered solutions to closed rooms (when he isn't being incompetent), and in End he was given an open invitation to solve the epitaph WITH the adults (who all know the hometown)m which hadn't happened before. And in Dawn he's just an accomplice, sooooo ... yeah. :-/
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Old 2012-09-02, 07:05   Link #30316
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
A bit too lazy to get through the entire video, personally. Care to explain..? Or should I just fast forward to a certain part?
He says there's an awful lot of 'rose symbolisms' in Umineko, like for example, Maria's rose, or all the stuff about golden roses, and he claims all of this is a hint towards Rosa being the culprit. Anyone else want to jump out of the window with me?

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lol, it's pretty easy to land on "Shannon + something to do with that damn promise" by the end of Alliance - there's NOWHERE else to really logically go. However, the motive is pretty incomprehensible. I couldn't describe for the life of me what she WANTED to have happen.
Call me mad, but Yasu's motive is one of my favorite things in this series. Honestly. I like it, because you really have to understand stuff in order to get there. (But yeah, I think neither she could say what she hoped to happen).

By the way, am I the only one who thinks the whole MariaXSakutarou stuff was a huge parallel to ShannonXKanon? That was basically my first reason for starting to doubt Kanon's existence.
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Old 2012-09-02, 07:23   Link #30317
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Call me mad, but Yasu's motive is one of my favorite things in this series. Honestly. I like it, because you really have to understand stuff in order to get there. (But yeah, I think neither she could say what she hoped to happen).
*randomly comes in* I agree with the Captain!!!!*Leaves*
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Old 2012-09-02, 07:59   Link #30318
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Yasu tried with George and even took the ring. A relationship with Jessica is the only one she considered impossible. So she tried to take George's proposal and wait for him, the incident was sparked by Battler returning and Yasu's furniture crashing violently. 'Beatrice' was the powerful witch that wouldn't just step back and let Shanon marry if her man returned. Shanon wasn't letting George go, even with all her insecurities about being an uncultured maid. There was fire.
Well, actually it's never said that she considered it impossible and usually it's said that Kanon lost to Shannon merely because 'he started later'.
Sure, if one considers Kanon's behaviour as a reflection of Yasu's thought on that relation it can seem Yasu had little fait in that relation but actually Kanon believed Shannon's relation with George wouldn't work either while Shannon seemed to believe Kanon's relation with Jessica could work as well.

So to me Kanon merely represent Yasu's pessimism in any relation she might have working while Shannon represent the optimism. With this premise though it's easy to assume Shannon has more chances than Kanon.

Also when Yasu took the ring she wasn't trying to make things work anymore as her following step is always start murdering as she planned prior to take the ring. So maybe she tried to make it work previously but, when she took the ring, she was already willing to give it up.

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
I believe the great incident that was going to happen anyway was she giving the siblings the opportunity to solve the epitaph and get the Headship.
Personally I find more likely that the incident would have been for Kanon (or Shannon, or both) to disappear. It was supposed to be, after all, a minor yet mysterious incident that would happen if Battler had come back a year sooner.
Sure, it's also possible she would have challenged him with the epitaph but since the adults weren't in such desperate ecomomical situation it was unlikely the whole could escalate into real murder... though this would be a little more unpredictable so I don't really know if Will could be so sure it wouldn't happen.

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
There is something. But maybe Yasu didn't intend to kill anyone to begin with, then she fell under a lot of stress with Battler's return and the rebellion of her funiture. So, while Yasu was intending to do some weird ceremony to choose the next head, Battler arrived and awakened the dormant witch and all her doubts. Then she screwed up somewhere (I believe giving the greedy siblings those shotguns and more important the information about the bomb) and when shit hit the fan (someone got money-madness and started murdering everyone) she felt like it was all her fault.
Personally I prefer the idea she only wanted to engage Battler in an harmless mystery game and things went wrong along the way, sort of like how witch Maria kills her mother over and over but real Maria doesn't even try to do it. It was all supposed to be a game... then something turned it into a mess.

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On a side note about the X-Sibling-that-found-gold as killer theory: Why take the burden of killing individually everyone if you could just run away and wait for the bomb to go off without telling them about Kuwadorian? I think some spontaneous blast that nobody expected is better and safer than the possibility of someone making a call or finding a way to comunicate about some mad serial killer. Surely one misterious vanishing or two would make less scandal that 6+ people being brutally murdered...
It's the general trouble one face when we try to solve Prime. The whole murdering everyone seems not to have sense.

That's why I'm more for something went wrong and people went paranoyd.
After all even in the gameboards when the murders start people slowly grow paranoyd and start accusing each other...

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
By the way, I was looking over some Japanese sites for thoughts on Ikuko=Yasu and found this interpretation on the EP8 boat scene:

(Translation by me. Corrections welcome.)

Spoiler:
I really think the ingot="Beatrice" idea is an interesting interpretation. Though I'm still curious as to why Battler would attempt suicide later. Also, it seems a little out of character for Battler to care so much about gold, but on the other hand, what we know of Battler is probably idealized. Oh and on the realism front, I don't think a human could out-chase a sinking metal ingot.

But still, interesting.
Hum... while it's interesting I don't really like much the idea of Battler almost drowning to save some gold. It would be different if he was carrying the gold and... hum, let's say he slipped in the water and for some reason couldn't let go of the gold fast enough so it began to pull him down (let's assume he was carrying it in a backpack for example and that once he managed to get rid of it he had no more air in his lugs...) though somehow the whole scene doesn't seem to support this.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
That still doesn't qualify as evidence. If anything, it's just the 'clues' that led you to this theory. I'll borrow Jan-Poo's words here, crude mathematical facts that are not by any chance thematic narrative hints do not qualify as sufficient evidence.

The stuff about the name is almost as ridiculous as KnownNoMore's 'Rose Symbolism'. I would accept it if any of the other hints was adequate to support that theory. However, most things on this list are assumptions.
No, it's not evidence, it's just an interpretation. The problem is that many things in Umineko are just interpretations or even mere possibilities.

That's why there's people who wonder if Yasu is really Beato 2's child or she was to play that role when Kinzo was about to die or she just believed she was on her own (and I think there were other theories but I can't remember which were).

For all we know the real Yasu might not even been on Rokkenjima that day and the Ushiromiya might have hired another servant whose blessed name was Shannon and Yasu might have written her stories merely pretending that Shannon was her.

Of course this would have made the tragedy of Rokkenjima completely disconnected to the tales... or Yasu could have still be involved in it as she might have orchestrated from afar a game that developed in the wrong way even if what happened in Prime would surely have been different from what happened on the gameboard (as in the gameboard Shannon & Kanon are Yasu while on Prime they would be 2 different people).

And no, I don't think that's what had happened but that's the problem with the whole setting. It gives us too much freedom to come up with assorted solutions instead than driving us securely to the right one.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
... that I was just surprised it was never hinted that his meta-character was being supported through all these games by a meta-Ikuko. It is her mere existence I wanted hints of. I know that rule only applied to the gameboards, but pulling a random mystery character who is sort of essential for readers to understand author theory out of thin air is sort of annoying unless it was hinted.
I agree. If she's a random character I find annoying she wasn't hinted especially because she's a random character with peculiar characteristics. She got the money to take care of Battler and keep him hidden as well as the will to do so.

She's not just your ordinary girl you would happen to meet. If she's a random chara, her existence works like a forced deus ex machina to create a certain setting that in normal situations wouldn't happen.

That's why for me it's difficult to like the idea she's just a random chara.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
At least she's the culprit in the forgeries.

But well, the whole game is about filling the cat-box with what you believe happened, I guess.
I think a better definition is 'she's the culprit in the gameboards as we know them'.
Ange never mention that the forgeries, be them the messages in the bottles or Hachijo's tales, point to a Shannon/Kanon culprit theory so either the forgeries couldn't be solved or they pointed to other culprits.
Otherwise I would expect Ange to wonder about why the messages and Hachijo or one of the two have fun in pointing as the servants as culprits and investigate on them.

They aren't the ideal culprits as Ange wants to pin Eva as culprit but hey, I think she would sacrifice her EvaCulprit Theory in favour of a NotRudolf's familyCulprit Theory.
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Old 2012-09-02, 08:42   Link #30319
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Looking up something I already know won't help you pull your own head out of your ass. That's something only you can do.

Seriously. Look it up. It's even mentioned in the Wikipedia article you posted a few days ago.
Are you trolling me, wanderer?
The article I posted defines clearly what a logical reasoning is, and it's not anything close to what you claim.

Besides how can you even remotely claim that a logical fallacy is legit?
What's your problem exactly?


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
How about how Ikuko doesn't think of herself as human?
Already answered, and besides, that's featherine not Ikuko. The Ikuko on the flashbacks and the Ikuko seen by Yukari doesn't really display the arrogance and air of superiority that are characteristic of Featherine.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Too bad he's completely wrong, huh?
Well now, "completely". He's wrong, but a good part of his story can be explained. If he made that statement it means that at least he tried to write his story that way. To say that nothing in Umineko is properly hinted would be an enormous bullshit.
So in the end, if it is apparent, easily deducible and it doesn't conflict with anything, what is the reason to think it's a lie?


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Holy shit, if this were a relevant or accurate metaphor for what anyone in the thread was doing, you'd totally have a point! Too bad.
But it is. Maybe you haven't read all the comments.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No, that's not what a Premise is. The premise is how you introduce the reader to the scenario. "Battler fights a witch he doesn't believe exists" is a premise. "Everyone is being murdered in a suspiciously stereotypical murder mystery" is a premise.

"Battler is alive" is a plot twist right at the epilogue.
Plot twists are never mentioned in the premise, that would defy the whole idea of a plot twist. The sixth sense, the others, the usual suspects, fight club. None of them tell you from the beginning what the story is actually about in the premise. It doesn't change that the premise of the story is entirely based on that plot twist, you just learn it at the very end.



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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
2. "19^9": during the incident "Beatrice" was 19 years old.
You got it wrong It's 18^8. There's no 19^9 anywhere. and that's the reading of Touya Hachijo

The "19" is still taken from the name "Ikuko".
By the way Iku(ko) Hachijo would be 19^8, though no one mentioned that in the story.
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Old 2012-09-02, 09:30   Link #30320
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
The stuff about the name is almost as ridiculous as KnownNoMore's 'Rose Symbolism'. I would accept it if any of the other hints was adequate to support that theory. However, most things on this list are assumptions.
I understand what you mean, as most of it is speculation. However since no real proof exists in Umineko, "clues" are all we can use.
Also: Please provide an example for the following scenario:

How would Yasu act, if Battler came 1 year earlier?

I still see no alternative to my theory to explain what she would do if he fulfilled his promise "in time" yet, because "she cannot leave the island as Beatrice".



And thank you Jan-Poo. I corrected the mistake.
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