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Old 2012-09-02, 16:45   Link #221
dahl_moon
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... That was the most appalling apology that I've read in a while. Is it so fr***ing difficult to say "we went overboard"? What about the path to least resistance? Are they that ignorant of why this is blowing up out of proportion? Now, attacks on Kita-Eri probably skewed their judgement somewhat, but they're pressing all the wrong buttons in handling this situation. A few cheap words could've saved them quite a bit of money. Why?

I have to say I'm dropping this from my DVD list (I had hoped to "when" it finally gets released. Kokoro Connect is licensed, correct?). Although I have been and still plan to collect the (Korean translated) novels.

@rogerpepitone Unless Ichika wants to leave the seiyu scene forever, that's probably the worse option he could choose.
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Old 2012-09-02, 17:22   Link #222
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Those who is arguing this info might have been exaggerated by the internet should know all the news and gossip get the same treatment and we usually respond with that given information. Taken out of context my ass. All the pranksters are the same. They joke around at the expense of the victim's feelings and just make it with the excuse that they were having fun. Then they do it again with clean conscience. Unless you've been in the same situation, none of us have right to call it was exaggerated or taken out of the context.
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Old 2012-09-02, 17:43   Link #223
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Would the prank qualify as fraud? A casual reading of wikipedia suggests it would be such under US law.
Nope. Given this was not been done to intentional cause harm (despite what the peanut gallery migt say) and certainly not for personal gain, it wouldn't apply. Combine this with the type of job which involves such risks, and there is no case.

Frankly, I'm disappointed in the responses of the general community (as in beyond this forum) to this incident. It only reinforces my view that people force upon the entertainment industry a very lopsided hypocritical moral standard.
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Old 2012-09-02, 17:47   Link #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The fact people don't accept an apology as sincere based on some absurd double standards is a bigger problem in my mind.
What double standards?
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Old 2012-09-02, 18:05   Link #225
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I realize that for him to seriously pursue legal action would be a career ending move. OTOH, I think that pointing out that the actions constituted fraud with penalties of _____ are a good counter against the "just a prank" comments.
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Old 2012-09-02, 18:10   Link #226
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Because it would never be recognized as fraud except possibly by a bunch of biased juries, I don't see the point except that it confirms my view of lopsided moral standards.
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Old 2012-09-02, 18:13   Link #227
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Originally Posted by Soliloquy View Post
Taken out of context my ass. All the pranksters are the same. They joke around at the expense of the victim's feelings and just make it with the excuse that they were having fun. Then they do it again with clean conscience. Unless you've been in the same situation, none of us have right to call it was exaggerated or taken out of the context.
So, unlimited sympathy for the victim (even if he claims otherwise), zero consideration for the accused perpetrators and accomplices (even if they claim otherwise), and no one has the right say anything differently unless they've been in the same situation. That sounds fair and balanced!

Well, why even have a conversation then; let's get straight to sentencing!

Seriously, I think a lot of us probably know what it's like to be bullied. It's a horrible thing and should never be condoned in any situation. If the allegations are true, then I definitely don't think what happened was appropriate. But I don't think we can pretend to know all the details of the situation and who all knew what when. You have to have at least some allowance for at least considering that there may be another side of the story for some of the people involved. That not everyone involved with this situation knew that the victim wasn't in on the joke, or that not everyone involved intended for this to be carried out in this manner. You have to at least allow some possibility for multiple points of view, or you're just being biased. It's so easy for us to feel sympathy for the victim and to believe that "there's no doubt" all the allegations are true because it seems awfully "truthy" (and because a lot of us know just how horrible it is to be bullied)... but I think that's just letting our emotions completely take over.

At the end of the day, we will never know all the details of all the situation surrounding this case. And in the end, it's not our fight -- it's up to the victim if he wants to pursue this case further and bring further attention to it. And in the end, people are getting all worked up about this one situation, but there are all sorts of situations like this that happen all the time, not to mention situations that are a heck of a lot more severe and troubling than a voice actor having his hopes crushed in public. We've all had our feelings hurt unfairly before; it wasn't right, and it may leave some scars, but he can move past this. I've got bullying scars too -- it became part of who I am, for better or worse. As bad as this situation appears to be, I think everyone should try to keep everything in perspective. We should save some of our rage for other things too.
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Old 2012-09-02, 18:14   Link #228
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US Law doesn't equal Japanese law so it doesn't really matter. It wasnt fraud just a nasty unfunny prank.
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Old 2012-09-02, 18:17   Link #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Frankly, I'm disappointed in the responses of the general community (as in beyond this forum) to this incident. It only reinforces my view that people force upon the entertainment industry a very lopsided hypocritical moral standard.
People just do not have a realistic view of the REAL society works. Everything is about politics as evident from the following :-

Mizushima's Apology :-
http://ameblo.jp/neko-no-otete/entry-11344488325.html

Ogame's Apology :-
http://ameblo.jp/asu-kame/entry-11344783403.html

Note that both Mizushima and Ogame had almost nothing to do with the incident and yet they still have to say their piece while executives like Yamanaka remain silent. You may not like how things are settled, but this is how things works. I have a feeling it will not be long before Sugita post his "apology."
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Old 2012-09-02, 18:23   Link #230
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The question can be turned into this: Life is a political game, but it does not mean everyone is as Machiavellian as people have been accusing some of the parties related to this incident. Why is it that people bandwagon onto this when it's most likely any normal individual would have done as what happened?
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Old 2012-09-02, 18:36   Link #231
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
So, unlimited sympathy for the victim (even if he claims otherwise), zero consideration for the accused perpetrators and accomplices (even if they claim otherwise), and no one has the right say anything differently unless they've been in the same situation. That sounds fair and balanced!

Well, why even have a conversation then; let's get straight to sentencing!

Seriously, I think a lot of us probably know what it's like to be bullied. It's a horrible thing and should never be condoned in any situation. If the allegations are true, then I definitely don't think what happened was appropriate. But I don't think we can pretend to know all the details of the situation and who all knew what when. You have to have at least some allowance for at least considering that there may be another side of the story for some of the people involved. That not everyone involved with this situation knew that the victim wasn't in on the joke, or that not everyone involved intended for this to be carried out in this manner. You have to at least allow some possibility for multiple points of view, or you're just being biased. It's so easy for us to feel sympathy for the victim and to believe that "there's no doubt" all the allegations are true because it seems awfully "truthy" (and because a lot of us know just how horrible it is to be bullied)... but I think that's just letting our emotions completely take over.

At the end of the day, we will never know all the details of all the situation surrounding this case. And in the end, it's not our fight -- it's up to the victim if he wants to pursue this case further and bring further attention to it. And in the end, people are getting all worked up about this one situation, but there are all sorts of situations like this that happen all the time, not to mention situations that are a heck of a lot more severe and troubling than a voice actor having his hopes crushed in public. We've all had our feelings hurt unfairly before; it wasn't right, and it may leave some scars, but he can move past this. I've got bullying scars too -- it became part of who I am, for better or worse. As bad as this situation appears to be, I think everyone should try to keep everything in perspective. We should save some of our rage for other things too.
I think it goes beyond this incident to what it affects, although the emotional issue of bullying certain rises a more heated chain of thought.

Regardless of what judgement one may pass on this incident, it's probable that the anime may suffer due to this and I'm quite sure a lot of people want said anime to succeed and wouldn't want it hindered by an incident that has nothing to do with the anime itself. Can you imagine having writing the source of your life, and having it be associated with this incident through no fault of your own? Not to mention the collateral damage of those who weren't involved. I think it's reasonable to hope the parties involved to know how to play the proper PR game and try to make things easier, a certain degree of politics that makes it at least sound like everything is going well. Sadly, the net is the explosive factor.

Who knows. Maybe with the proper spinning and how everyone acts, it might actually turn out to something productive in the end to turn negative attention into good attention.

It's not an easy thing to do when public opinion is already heavily biased. But could they try harder? Is this the best way? I don't know. That's why people are discussing.

Plainly put, it's no longer solely about the parties involved unfortunately. It's just incredibly hard to appreciate how quickly things can get out of hand given our age of communication via the internet. As you can see, this goes far beyond a moralistic judgement on a detached event.
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Old 2012-09-02, 18:56   Link #232
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While the incident itself is of course disgusting, I really think the reaction of many people on the web is equally if not more disgraceful than the incident itself.

Regardless the idea that people shouldn't get mad over this just because it doesn't involve them directly is honestly absurd. Just mind our own business, it's all a private matter? Give me a break. If there's no one to get upset over it, then these sorts of incidents will keep happening unhindered since no one will care.
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Old 2012-09-02, 19:03   Link #233
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
While the incident itself is of course disgusting, I really think the reaction of many people on the web is equally if not more disgraceful than the incident itself.

Regardless the idea that people shouldn't get mad over this just because it doesn't involve them directly is honestly absurd. Just mind our own business, it's all a private matter? Give me a break. If there's no one to get upset over it, then these sorts of incidents will keep happening unhindered since no one will care.
The tyranny of the mob sums up the reactions of the more rabid fans.

If you might recall some rioting incidents in recent history, some of them were started over legitimate anger over police incidents like say LA in 1992 or London last year. However, the resulting destruction that occurred was unjustified and it also resulted in people completely unrelated getting attacked. And there were also thugs that just joined in the disorder not out of anger, but so they could engage in their own acts of depravity. The recent harassment of Eri Kitamura would be an example of this.

Still, hopefully we learn to tread more lightly on certain things because this is an aspect of human behavior that isn't easily changed. It is also unfortunate that this mob is in control of our Japanese cartoons and a small bit of our entertainment is at their mercy. It's not a enviable position at all.
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Old 2012-09-02, 19:16   Link #234
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
So, unlimited sympathy for the victim (even if he claims otherwise), zero consideration for the accused perpetrators and accomplices (even if they claim otherwise), and no one has the right say anything differently unless they've been in the same situation. That sounds fair and balanced!
Seriously I think some words of apology would be nice even if things went out of proportion but they are pretending as if nothing happened. What's more, it was Seiyuu apologising than the main orchestrator who may have planned out the whole thing. How hard would it be just utter one word than trying to deviously cover it up? It could have been over and done with but now we are discussing about double standard and politics of anime business...

First I admit we lack the purpose of this prank. I mean this prank would've taken a bit of time and money to set it up. If it was to promote the show, there would have been plenty of other ways to promote the show but they chose this for a bit of an entertainment for themselves. If this was done quietly, it would have been fine.
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Old 2012-09-02, 19:26   Link #235
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The "entertaining for themselves" and "bullying" hypothesis is based on what people on the net believe. We're assuming things which might not be true at all.
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Old 2012-09-02, 19:53   Link #236
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The "entertaining for themselves" and "bullying" hypothesis is based on what people on the net believe. We're assuming things which might not be true at all.
I don't think that you're being fair about this, Sumeragi.

The bullying "hypothesis" was basically accepted by just about all of us at first. Now, after a significant passing of time (why wasn't this supposed "real story" put out sooner?) the people behind the alleged bullying are putting forward apologies and explanations that, frankly, stretches credibility, for reasons that Guardian Enzo and Klashikari have already brought up.

Is it possible that those apologies are entirely sincere and no bullying occurred? Sure... and it's also possible that O.J. Simpson never killed Nicole Simpson. Catch my drift?

The standard of "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" applies to courts of law, but it doesn't apply to the court of public opinion. Public opinion will go with whatever possible interpretation of the facts seems most plausible to them, and that's why a lot of people believe that O.J. Simpson killed his wife. And it's also why a lot of us don't think that everybody is innocent in this bullying incident.

At the very least, I seriously doubt that the principal parties (the two seiyu most directly involved, and the Director) are completely innocent here. But in fairness, I can easily imagine most other people on the Kokoro Connect anime team being innocent of wrong-doing, and honestly thinking that this was a legit publicity stunt.
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Old 2012-09-02, 20:09   Link #237
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The question can be turned into this: Life is a political game, but it does not mean everyone is as Machiavellian as people have been accusing some of the parties related to this incident. Why is it that people bandwagon onto this when it's most likely any normal individual would have done as what happened?
That doesn't make sense whatsoever.
The core problem with the incident is simple: what was that for to begin with? Why going as far as making a "elaborate" prank on a seiyuu who wasn't taking part of the series to begin with?

Your claim for hypocrisy is just displaced: it would be akin to "you condemn such actions, but you would have done the same!", which is absolutely not valid here:
1) it is up to producers and staff team to select seiyuu for whatever roles they might be hired for
2) there is absolutely no benefit of doing such kind of prank whatsoever, except leading to a negative image, which is not something any company would want, even more so with the context of the japanese society and culture
3) there was absolutely no need to shame a seiyuu, however good or bad they are

A political game would be akin to do whatever it takes to fulfill a purpose and goal in mind, and the only one you would care in anime industry would be popularity and marketing, in order to increase the potential income from the given series.

But here, we have an absolutely gratuitious act pulled for no logical reason whatsoever, so backing it as a "political" decision whatsoever doesn't cut it. Assuming you would want to shame a popular seiyuu to sabotage the reputation of all series related to them would be a sketch, but "theorically valid" political tactic (albeit stupid as hell), but the context is entirely different: Ichiki has, for the lack of better term, absolutely nothing to do with Kokoro connect thus up to his fake audition and enrollment for PR, and pulling a public embarassment does not benefit the series at all, since it would lead to a major backlash, which is occuring as we speak.

Also, assumptions are valid if we consider facts and circumstances, which are the videos we were given (hell, the only bizarre stuff we got were people taking the rumor that Kitamura was Yamanaka's favorite seriously, which lead to collateral damage).
The note on the website implies the videos and all are diffamatory, despite they are absolutely not tampered whatsoever (unless someone is able to pull such stunt exist, which means they have quite TOO much free time to tamper the event live, Sugita and Imai's radio events AND Kokoro Connect radio event).
Frankly, you call that incident as a "moral standard", as if normal people would do the same, without justifying one bit. I seriously wonder how necessary/beneficial such stunt was, to make you claim that anyone would do the same.

The only things we have no facts for are: the motivations and the actual names of those who took part of it. Past that, it is fair to conclude several points with the evidences alone, and they are by no means circumstancial at all.
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Old 2012-09-02, 20:11   Link #238
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Everything that I have been going against can be summarized into the below quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Is it possible that those apologies are entirely sincere and no bullying occurred? Sure... and it's also possible that O.J. Simpson never killed Nicole Simpson. Catch my drift?
The above is basically a summary judgement based what whatever crackpot ideas has been going around. Yes, no one can deny this prank is not of a purely innocent nature, but has this been a systematic aggressive move on one individual? No.


@ Klashikari: Focusing on all the "how uncanny/convenient the apologies are" part of the issue.
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Old 2012-09-02, 20:25   Link #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The above is basically a summary judgement based what whatever crackpot ideas has been going around.
Crackpot ideas? More like simply not being naive, imo.


Quote:
Yes, no one can deny this prank is not of a purely innocent nature, but has this been a systematic aggressive move on one individual? No.
What exactly do you mean by "systematic aggressive move on one individual"?

The prank was premeditated, and I'm inclined to think it was intended (by at least some people) to harm the victim. I'm not sure how "systematic" that is, though.
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Old 2012-09-02, 20:25   Link #240
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Klashikari, I'm not entirely sure what you're going for. From reading your post, it sounds like you're trying to convince me into thinking that because the entire incident makes no logical sense, clearly we must be missing something. For example, it might have really been the case that it was intended to be a prank that Ichiki knew about, but somewhere along the lines it went wrong and he never got the intel on it being staged.

Now I'm not saying I actually think this, but I'm not sure what I think now. The situation, when looking deeper into it, makes absolutely no sense. I'm along the lines of Triple_R. While I don't think the director and seiyuu are completely innocent, I'm not entirely sure how much fault falls on whom, and I'd rather see if more information gets revealed.
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