AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > General Anime

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-09-02, 20:37   Link #241
Sumeragi
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Crackpot ideas? More like simply not being naive, imo.
Seems like it's the other way around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What exactly do you mean by "systematic aggressive move on one individual"?

The prank was premeditated, and I'm inclined to think it was intended (by at least some people) to harm the victim. I'm not sure how "systematic" that is, though.
Systematic as in it was planned to harm the victim by all the participants.
Sumeragi is offline  
Old 2012-09-02, 20:40   Link #242
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The above is basically a summary judgement based what whatever crackpot ideas has been going around. Yes, no one can deny this prank is not of a purely innocent nature, but has this been a systematic aggressive move on one individual? No.
The second point cannot be determined whatsoever, as long as the one(s) responsible for this mess don't explain themselves, which probably will never happen. It could potentially be a dart game they chose a seiyuu at random, it could be a nutty case that was "innocently" thought to be no big deal etc.
The motive is just that: completely random unless exposed, since the benefit and context of the incident just don't make sense to begin with. That is to say, everything else can be assumed with evidences.
Quote:
@ Klashikari: Focusing on all the "how uncanny/convenient the apologies are" part of the issue.
I'm sorry, but there are various issues with the "no problem with these apologies" that obviously cannot convince a sizable amount of people:
1) the incident occured months ago, and was never addressed until people found out by chance
2) Kokoro Connect radio event and Eufonius' Kikuchi comments are definitely not pushing the "staged prank" claim presented in the website news.
3) Ichiki explaining his "venture" to Sugita and Imai hardly sounded someone who realized afterwards it was staged.
4) The itasha trip being actually true, with obviously nothing for Ichiki to really involve himself in the series despite his -actual job- sounds off no matter how you look at it

In a business sense, you definitely wouldn't want people going ahead of themselves which could potentially contradict statements, but as Guardian Enzo said already, it was possible for them to take responsability to a certain degree without leading to complicated matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
Klashikari, I'm not entirely sure what you're going for. From reading your post, it sounds like you're trying to convince me into thinking that because the entire incident makes no logical sense, clearly we must be missing something. For example, it might have really been the case that it was intended to be a prank that Ichiki knew about, but somewhere along the lines it went wrong and he never got the intel on it being staged.
The point is simple: the staff and all claim that "everything is a misunderstanding", to which I bring the issue at hand. And this issue is simply "that situation does not make sense at all".
If you consider marketing and business perspectives, no one in their right mind would do that for pragmatic reasons. This is why something is missing, and I never tried speculating the reason why they did that (there isn't even any evidence that they indeed targeted Ichiki, and it could be any random low profile seiyuu instead).

That's the reason why the whole "misunderstanding" just doesn't click on me at all: claiming it was a misunderstanding implies that either the prank wasn't mean to be severe (despite we got gratuitious remarks after the incident) or was staged (to which they didn't address it to either Ichiki or the public until people found out and went on rage).

I'm like you and everyone else wondering about this affair: I don't have the slighest idea of the individuals who are truly responsible for this mess, but I believe mindlessly accepting their words, under the pretense it was a "mere prank" would be no better than a nod at them.
That said, I do not agree with the whole "witch hunt" going all out, nor it is a good idea to lead a widespread boycott that would obviously involve people who have nothing to do with that. I simply just cannot accept that situation, thus I speak my mind on it.
Klashikari is offline  
Old 2012-09-02, 20:48   Link #243
liquidmetal
procrastinating...
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Yes, no one can deny this prank is not of a purely innocent nature, but has this been a systematic aggressive move on one individual? No.
I am not sure what else can be said but from watching the videos and saying that it is not a public humiliation, well it most definitely wasn't pleasant.

From the apathy of some people here about the thought that no harm was caused and that it wasn't premeditated to at least a group of individuals, then just looking at the quotes from Terashima should ought to dispel that thought.

I do not think anyone is arguing that the scattergun approach is the correct way, and I hope that the novel and the author are unaffected, but surely what has come to light on the comments from the two VAs, for example, cannot be defended.
liquidmetal is offline  
Old 2012-09-02, 21:02   Link #244
relentlessflame
 
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The point is simple: the staff and all claim that "everything is a misunderstanding", to which I bring the issue at hand. And this issue is simply "that situation does not make sense at all".
If you consider marketing and business perspectives, no one in their right mind would do that for pragmatic reasons. This is why something is missing, and I never tried speculating the reason why they did that (there isn't even any evidence that they indeed targeted Ichiki, and it could be any random low profile seiyuu instead).
You know, I really, honestly, do believe that they were just trying to do a sort of version of "Punked". Where you mislead someone, pull the rug out from underneath them, laugh (hopefully with them, and not at them) a bit, and then they get compensated for their trouble. In this case, he was someone they were hiring as a PR guy, so he was taking part in a PR campaign. The issue is that he didn't know the nature of the PR campaign, and he actually is a bonafide voice actor. So the "punked" aspect failed because the believability is too high. If they just took some random guy off the street who really, really wanted to be in showbusiness, pulled this stunt on them, and then turned around and offered them a long-term job in their PR team... I don't know if there'd be the same hurt feelings. So from "marketing and business perspectives", I think what they were trying to do seems pretty clear to me.

Personally, I don't like "Punked", that sense of humour, or any shows like it. I find it in bad taste. But it's a very popular style of comedy in the entertainment business around the world today. So when they say their intentions were misunderstood, I can actually buy that. The whole thing reeks to me of a prank that was supposed to be funny, but went wrong due to some poor decisions and some people involved taking it too seriously (and being far too vicious). The organizers likely just wanted to have some sort of "fun" way to introduce their new PR guy, and someone came up with this.

Again, I'm not trying to excuse everything that happened... but I can honestly see how it's quite possible that many (not all) of the people who were aware of this did not necessarily believe it was malicious, or intend for things to be taken the way they were. I'm also not going to argue about how they should or shouldn't have worded their apology to appease you and others -- maybe it wasn't the best strategy, who knows -- but I also can see how there is probably truth in what was written there.
__________________
[...]
relentlessflame is offline  
Old 2012-09-02, 21:15   Link #245
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
I see where you are coming from, and that kind of "entertainment" is definitely not uncommon in Japan.
I will admit I did think something like this could occur, but again few points just don't click that assumption so that -I- (not saying for everyone else) believe in that.

If, for example, Ichiki wasn't so lost in his explanations to Sugita and Imai and/or state everything was to have a wonky PR campaign... fine.
If the Kokoro connect radio event had Kanemoto and Terashima explaining how they made an original PR campaign etc... sure.
But none actually happened, and the circumstances (low profile until the public and the internet stormed in) and comments just blow that assumption imho.

My biggest grip is definitely that radio event, where Kanemoto and Terashima just couldn't stop acting ecstatic after what happened to Ichiki.
It certainly doesn't define the whole motive of the "prank", but it definitely leaves an idea of what were their thoughts.
Assuming this radio was staged as well, they made another mistake in not even "punking" the public on this.

I will give you that Ichiki remaining as a PR can be seen as he actually acknowledged the ploy, but it can be equally seen as a way "not to lose a job" or to save face, even if it has the opposite effect.
Suffice to say, an abnormal point with that statement is that Ichiki wasn't really prepared for that, nor briefed afterwards, considering his reactions during Sugita and Imai's radios, and with Kanemoto in the car during the "connecting the hearts" itasha campaign (No, I have no idea how far went the punishment game with the electrodes, so I won't claim he really was hurt or anything, no idea really).
As a "usual punked" stunt, I would expect them to do it right after the fake audition, as a regular "you have been had! but you won't leave with empty hands". Instead, they left him rot with expectations for weeks before having that event where he got slammed with public humiliation, discovering first hand with everyone else what really happened.

So really, while I won't deny that direction of a "eventual staged prank" isn't close to null, points really are disturbing in that equation, even more so if you involve Japanese mindset.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-09-02 at 21:30.
Klashikari is offline  
Old 2012-09-02, 21:16   Link #246
minakichan
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Anyone have a link to a translation or summary of the various apologies/blog entries (the show's, Ichiki's, Terashima's, Mizushima's, Ogame's)? It's still somewhat beyond me what Mizushima and Ogame were apologizing about; were they involved as well? I wonder how in they were on this whole thing.
minakichan is offline  
Old 2012-09-02, 21:23   Link #247
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
Mizushima and Oogame were present during the event and did laugh at Ichiki's predicament. There is no indication if it was because they thought it was staged, the flow or whatever, so they were "cut some slack" I guess, unlike Kanemoto and Terashima.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-09-02 at 21:33.
Klashikari is offline  
Old 2012-09-02, 21:55   Link #248
Kakkou
18歳腐った(?)少年
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Honestly I think had Terashima and Kanemoto not gleefully laugh about the event on the Kokoroco radio, they would have not gotten themselves as much heat as they have now. It's precisely because of their behaviour towards the situation that brought them such animosity compared to Mizushima and Oogame. IIRC, Ichiki said that Mizushima gave him a sympathetic glace at another event during Imai's radio program, which I presume got some people off his back (though, the extreme ones would've still been wishing him ill fortune).

Had the laughing been kept within the event itself (and in Kanemoto's case, kept herself more in check during the itasha campaign), people would have been more willing to give them benefit of the doubt and assume they had no choice but to got along with the joke as part of their job.

In the end, the true culprit is none other than Yamanaka, especially since it's already been said that this isn't the first time he's pulled this shit (just not a this level) on Ichiki, which makes the idea that Ichiki may have been a poor randomly selected victim more unlikely.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic101701_1.gif
Panel taken from here (NSFW-ish). Translation/type by some /a/non.
Kakkou is offline  
Old 2012-09-02, 22:04   Link #249
liquidmetal
procrastinating...
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
In this case, he was someone they were hiring as a PR guy, so he was taking part in a PR campaign. The issue is that he didn't know the nature of the PR campaign, and he actually is a bonafide voice actor. So the "punked" aspect failed because the believability is too high. If they just took some random guy off the street who really, really wanted to be in showbusiness, pulled this stunt on them, and then turned around and offered them a long-term job in their PR team... I don't know if there'd be the same hurt feelings.
The difference here though is that they more likely chose this VA for the specific reason that he hasn't been that successful. They offered him a role on the anime to voice an anime only character and brought him in to record lines and audition, befitting his job title as a VA and one that isn't lucky enough to pick offers.

Then on a public stage they rescinded that role and said in all actuality that his role never existed and that he would work as a PR guy where the social status of the PR work is more akin to manual labour rather than a VA, all the while being laughed at for failing to not be more successful in his chosen profession.
liquidmetal is offline  
Old 2012-09-02, 23:16   Link #250
frivolity
My posts are frivolous
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 25
It was not a public stage per se because the performance was not meant to be uploaded on to NND. It was shown during a pre-season event for the anime in front of the audience and that's all.

Seriously, the perpetrators have apologised, and their apologies are now construed as being insincere. The victim came out and said he's taking it in stride and considered the current state of events as being blown out of proportion and it's now argued as being untruthful. Notwithstanding the blatant lack of evidence for these views, what more are the parties expected to do?
frivolity is offline  
Old 2012-09-02, 23:52   Link #251
Xacual
The color of a Hero
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
It was not a public stage per se because the performance was not meant to be uploaded on to NND. It was shown during a pre-season event for the anime in front of the audience and that's all.

Seriously, the perpetrators have apologised, and their apologies are now construed as being insincere. The victim came out and said he's taking it in stride and considered the current state of events as being blown out of proportion and it's now argued as being untruthful. Notwithstanding the blatant lack of evidence for these views, what more are the parties expected to do?
Their posts are being considered insincere because they haven't actually apologized for what happened to Ichiki. A real apology would have been that it was just a stunt but that it went out of hand and we're sorry to those involved for what took place. Telling everyone that it's all just a misunderstanding and then threatening to sue people that host the videos kind of kills that.
__________________
Xacual is online now  
Old 2012-09-03, 02:43   Link #252
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xacual View Post
Their posts are being considered insincere because they haven't actually apologized for what happened to Ichiki. A real apology would have been that it was just a stunt but that it went out of hand and we're sorry to those involved for what took place. Telling everyone that it's all just a misunderstanding and then threatening to sue people that host the videos kind of kills that.
Except that they're clearly never going to admit that any blame falls on them, there is nothing anyone can do about that, and the victim in question clearly wants this whole debacle to be over with and to put it behind him.
Continuing to stir up trouble in an attempt to drag an apology out of people not willing to give it is not what anyone actually involved in this wants.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline  
Old 2012-09-03, 02:45   Link #253
yu3
Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
*read some post about the topic. Knows everything because of tumblr*
Sigh... Its kinda sad that some people are so naive and biased. What will be the sense of forgiveness if everyone has a close mind.
yu3 is offline  
Old 2012-09-03, 02:57   Link #254
Xacual
The color of a Hero
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Except that they're clearly never going to admit that any blame falls on them, there is nothing anyone can do about that, and the victim in question clearly wants this whole debacle to be over with and to put it behind him.
Continuing to stir up trouble in an attempt to drag an apology out of people not willing to give it is not what anyone actually involved in this wants.
Well yeah of course they aren't going to admit it. I was just pointing out that people have legitimate reasons to call the apologies insincere.
__________________
Xacual is online now  
Old 2012-09-03, 04:08   Link #255
frivolity
My posts are frivolous
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 25
Except that there is no evidence that the apologies were insincere. All of the stuff we have here is simply assumptions that we're reading into the events. We don't have the full picture of what's going on. I personally find it in bad taste to read insincerity into an apology, once again especially because Ichiki himself has already said that he bears no ill will against the people involved.
frivolity is offline  
Old 2012-09-03, 04:33   Link #256
Xacual
The color of a Hero
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
Except that there is no evidence that the apologies were insincere. All of the stuff we have here is simply assumptions that we're reading into the events. We don't have the full picture of what's going on. I personally find it in bad taste to read insincerity into an apology, once again especially because Ichiki himself has already said that he bears no ill will against the people involved.
You didn't read what I wrote, there was no actual apology about what happened that is why people are taking it as being insincere, but like Kaisos said there is no way they're ever going to admit any kind of guilt. A lot of people realize they're now just trying to sweep it all back under the rug and hope it stays there, which annoys some. It's the nature of the beast, you'll never make all of the people happy all of the time.
__________________
Xacual is online now  
Old 2012-09-03, 05:04   Link #257
MakubeX2
うるとらぺど
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 34
An advice to people here, take this as a lesson to be learnt about how today's society is and be wary of it. You don't get justice all the time, but karma will work it's magic in time.
__________________
MakubeX2 is offline  
Old 2012-09-03, 05:30   Link #258
Triple_R
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Seems like it's the other way around.
Not at all. The naivety I'm seeing here is from people who refuse to accept that real wrong-doing and bullying almost certainly occurred.

Klashikari has put forward excellent arguments clearly showing why the official story coming from these apologies just does not fully add up, at least not for all of the participants.


Quote:
Systematic as in it was planned to harm the victim by all the participants.
Like I myself wrote before, maybe not all of the participants were in on the plan to harm the victim, but I really think that it's very naive to think that nobody involved in this was motivated by ill-intent.

The way Kanemoto and Terashima handled this whole event is highly suspicious, in my opinion. Like Klash said, the radio event is quite eyebrow-raising.


The reason why a lot of people aren't satisfied with the apology is because the apology is frankly insulting to people's intelligence and doesn't address how this is a bit more than just a mere misunderstanding.

There's times in life when it's better for people to suck it up and truly admit that they did wrong, and if people don't do that, then why should they be forgiven?

Speaking personally, I'll forgive any sincere apology. But the apology we have right now seems very half-hearted, at best, to me, and it dodges what really needs to be apologized for, imo.


Now, obviously a lot of the fan reaction to this has been quite nasty and unwarranted itself. But I agree with Kirarakim, I'm glad that fans who heard about this didn't just shrug their shoulders and say 'whatever'. What happened here was very crude and hurtful, and it shows a seedier side of the anime industry that shouldn't just be ignored or swept under the carpet, imo.

Maybe all of the fan outrage over this incident will make it less likely for incidents like this to happen in the future, and that's a good thing if you ask me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xacual View Post
Their posts are being considered insincere because they haven't actually apologized for what happened to Ichiki. A real apology would have been that it was just a stunt but that it went out of hand and we're sorry to those involved for what took place. Telling everyone that it's all just a misunderstanding and then threatening to sue people that host the videos kind of kills that.
Exactly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
Except that there is no evidence that the apologies were insincere. All of the stuff we have here is simply assumptions that we're reading into the events.
No, it's more than mere assumptions. Klashikari has put forward perfectly good reasons for doubting and questioning the official story.


Quote:
I personally find it in bad taste to read insincerity into an apology, once again especially because Ichiki himself has already said that he bears no ill will against the people involved.
And you don't think that Ichiki himself was pressured into saying that to try to calm the storm?

And sometimes apologies are insincere, so I don't see why it's in bad taste to read insincerity into an apology if you have good reason to suspect that they're not sincere.
__________________

Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-09-03 at 05:46.
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2012-09-03, 07:48   Link #259
kenshinflyer
Super Combat Butler
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Lawsuits? Where do you think this is, the US?
Heheh. Exactly what I'm getting at.
kenshinflyer is offline  
Old 2012-09-03, 09:15   Link #260
gecd
Cah Gunungkidul
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Jogja
Age: 26
the 2ch citizen are goats, goats without love
actually they dont care about the truth of rokken-- err I mean Ijimeconnect incident nor the victim
as long as they can keep bashing they will do it. just for fun

in the end
without love it cant be seen
__________________
Wedang Jahe Kalengan, teman anda melewati malam yang dingin dan sepi!

0% alcohol, 80% ginger syrup, 10% love, 10% GALAU!!

Last edited by gecd; 2012-09-03 at 09:55.
gecd is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.