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Old 2012-09-02, 18:05   Link #61
Dengar
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
the ratio of geniuses to normal ninja is actually pretty realistic. we are talking about let's say the top 20 ninja of all time. 50,000 normal ninja just died in this war and that's just from the number of ninja who were alive as of a couple days ago. top 20 all time is a very low percentage of these geniuses that are now being labeled as 'everybody' by some readers.
That's kind of normal though. None of the ninjas we know by name are actually part of these 50k "normal" ninjas. Basically there's a severe lack of "normal" ninjas to compare these "elites" to.
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Old 2012-09-02, 20:01   Link #62
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That's kind of normal though. None of the ninjas we know by name are actually part of these 50k "normal" ninjas. Basically there's a severe lack of "normal" ninjas to compare these "elites" to.
that's my point. in any population there are mostly these forgettable normal people and the ninjas in naruto are no exception. the ninjas we know and follow are special and all at least either jounin rank or potentially jounin rank. and then of course there are the kage levels and/or geniuses. there's no reason to follow any of those 100k normal ninja because they are not interesting and around genin level only able to do basic things we saw back in the first arc of naruto. so no, there isn't a lack of normal ninja. the ninja world is mostly those normal ones. the naruto story just follows the interesting ones whose lives effect major events in some way. its similar to how our human history doesnt recount normal lives, but most notable geniuses are preserved in our data and memories because they did interesting and eventful things
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Old 2012-09-02, 20:18   Link #63
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No, the example would be a heavyweight boxer vs lightweight boxer. Kakashi's fights usually end by him running out of chakra or the other guys jutsu being stronger because he has a bloodline.
"Because he has a bloodline" is a poor excuse. There have been thousands of Uchiha but only a handful are powerful enough to threaten an entire army. There are countless bloodline users in this world, most of them are just as fodder material as the rest of the rabble, only a select few are so gifted that they become demigod among men.
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I didn't compare Kabuto and Itachi, i compared Itachi and Sasuke, how they reacted to Kabuto's attacks. Let's say a greater genius and a lesser one
But since you mention it, Itachi did outsmart Kabuto when Kabuto tried to eat Sasuke and also by letting him believe that he could sense where Kabuto is. It's because of Itachi's genius that they survived until the point where Itachi could activate Izanami
Your definition of outsmarting is always incredibly flimsy when Itachi is concerned. He guessed who Kabuto was going to aim for first, which is hardly impressive really, and he never made Kabuto believe he was a sensor. Kabuto thought he might be because he had found his location and Itachi simply told him he wasn't. No outsmarting anything here, I'm guessing your love of Itachi made you remember this differently.
The Uchiha bro fight had no clever plan nor devious move. Itachi survived mostly because he was a powerful undead with a convenient ability.

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Well apparently my definition of genius is more based on how someone can perform in a ninja battle relative to his abilities while yours is more about how strong someone managed to become. Also i do not count physical abilities like having a rinnegan eye as being a genius. I mean a child Nagato killing a chuunin with his rinnegan doesn't mean he was a genius.
As a ninja being a genius is about how easily you can gather and how far you can take your abilities. It doesn't take a genius to have a Sharingan (although it arguably takes potential and a gifted body in the first place) but it does take a genius to take this ability to such height that the rest of the world cower in fear in your shadow.
Any jutsu, bloodline or not, is just a tool in the hands of someone.

Also you do count physical abilities as part of being a genius. What do you think Shikamaru and Kakashi's higher IQ is? They are smarter than nearly anyone and they use this innate ability to their advantage.
Just as they were born smarter there are people who are naturally stronger, tougher or faster. People like Nagato, Sasuke, Itachi and many others are natural born ninja. Naruto learned in a few day what Jiraiya couldn't master in a life time, that's what make them exceptional.
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Old 2012-09-02, 20:28   Link #64
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As i recall, the term genius in naruto did not mean book smart or poweri, it meant natural talent that set u apart from ur peers.

Who is a genius? Madara, hashirama, minato, sarutobi, kakashi, oro, itachi, sasuke, neji and characters like that


Who do i consider to be powerful but not a genius? Naruto, jiraiya, tobi, danzo, sage kabuto, characters like that.

I would also consider nagato a genius, he was always considered to be a prodigy. Say what u want about him having the rinnegan, he mastered it on his own
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Old 2012-09-03, 03:11   Link #65
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Seems this thread has gone toward talk of Genius' amongst the Ninja World instead of the chapter.
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Old 2012-09-03, 05:18   Link #66
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Personally, and this is just me, I use the word 'genius' to describe individuals who have developed their skills much faster than even the other "talented" individuals. Kakashi, Itachi, and Orochimaru come to mind. Sasuke is a borderline case because while he was great at everything ninja-related and mastered Fire Style at a very early age, his achievements hardly compare to Itachi who did all that AND awakened his sharingan at an even earlier age.
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Old 2012-09-03, 05:59   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Personally, and this is just me, I use the word 'genius' to describe individuals who have developed their skills much faster than even the other "talented" individuals. Kakashi, Itachi, and Orochimaru come to mind. Sasuke is a borderline case because while he was great at everything ninja-related and mastered Fire Style at a very early age, his achievements hardly compare to Itachi who did all that AND awakened his sharingan at an even earlier age.
But Itachi is dead, whereas Sasuske still has time to achieve even greater things.
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Old 2012-09-03, 08:19   Link #68
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Sasuke is a borderline case because while he was great at everything ninja-related and mastered Fire Style at a very early age, his achievements hardly compare to Itachi who did all that AND awakened his sharingan at an even earlier age.
Ah now I understand why it matters so much to you that the fact that Sasuke awakened the Sharingan a years before Itachi "doesn't count".
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Old 2012-09-03, 10:37   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Personally, and this is just me, I use the word 'genius' to describe individuals who have developed their skills much faster than even the other "talented" individuals. Kakashi, Itachi, and Orochimaru come to mind. Sasuke is a borderline case because while he was great at everything ninja-related and mastered Fire Style at a very early age, his achievements hardly compare to Itachi who did all that AND awakened his sharingan at an even earlier age.
I don't think an early start is as important as how far one is able to evolve. If some Uchiha awakened her sharingan at 5 years old, it wouldn't mean much at this point if she weren't able to continue evolving it.
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Old 2012-09-03, 10:57   Link #70
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But Itachi is dead, whereas Sasuske still has time to achieve even greater things.
While I give you that, he did die of illness rather than being slain in battle. If we forget that for a second, we also know that Sasuke had to work really hard and rely on borrowed power and such to catch up.

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Ah now I understand why it matters so much to you that the fact that Sasuke awakened the Sharingan a years before Itachi "doesn't count".
No, the reason I don't think it counts is because he never used it again for years afterwards or train its use. I'm entitled to my opinion. Why do you have such an obsession with "being right"?

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I don't think an early start is as important as how far one is able to evolve. If some Uchiha awakened her sharingan at 5 years old, it wouldn't mean much at this point if she weren't able to continue evolving it.
Itachi did continue to get stronger though. He went on to become a jounin and join the ANBU at a ridiculously early age. He then proceeded to awaken to the Mangekyou Sharingan and joined an organization of the most powerful ninjas alive. I fail to see the problem here.
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Old 2012-09-03, 11:10   Link #71
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^As an aside, Itachi was never a Jounin. Being a Jounin is not a prerequisite for being an ANBU.

That being said, to simply compare rank advancements is somewhat meaningless. Kakashi rose through the ranks faster than Itachi, and while both are "geniuses", it is plain to see that Itachi is a far more powerful everything compared to Kakashi (though Kakashi is arguably more intelligent).

Additionally, Itachi had the help of an entire clan in achieving his early advancements. I'm sure he trained on his own, but his Father, Mother and Shisui all undoubtedly helped him in training his abilities and Sharingan. Sasuke, on the other hand, had a handful of scrolls (after the massacre) and that's about it. (It certainly didn't help that his mind was raped and he was traumatized when he started training again.)
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Old 2012-09-03, 11:24   Link #72
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While I give you that, he did die of illness rather than being slain in battle. If we forget that for a second, we also know that Sasuke had to work really hard and rely on borrowed power and such to catch up.
saying itachi is a genius and sasuke is not is getting into the debate over who's a better genius, while casting aside the fact that they both are geniuses. sasuke was able to dispel itachi's tsukiomi with just a normal sharingan after all. i agree that itachi was better and smarter and by sasuke's own words 'perfect' although i wouldnt go that far myself. but sasuke's development is clearly genius as is his intelligence. just look at how he was able to diagnose everything deidara (a kage level fighter) did in the midst of a fast paced and deadly fight.
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Old 2012-09-03, 12:44   Link #73
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No, the reason I don't think it counts is because he never used it again for years afterwards or train its use. I'm entitled to my opinion. Why do you have such an obsession with "being right"?
That's a weird thing to say, why do you have such an obssession with being wrong?
Look I know this is discussion is pointless because when the basis of your reasoning is so patently absurd and illogical there is really nothing I can say to make you see the problem of your claim. But one more time just for the sake of the argument : I killed someone 5 years ago and another person yesterday so the first time I killed was yesterday because the first one doesn't count since I didn't kill anybody during those 5 years.
This is exactly your reasoning with a reframed subject, can't you see how nonsensical it is? As I said I guess not.
Oh well.

Moving on to a more substantial subject. Even ignoring Itachi why would you think Sasuke is only borderline compared to, say, Orochimaru when the man himself admitted that at the same age he was considerably less talented than Sasuke? Do you think he was lying to himself?
And in fact let's not ignore Itachi, a genius for sure who contrary to Sasuke started experiencing warfare at a younger age and never stopped until his death, is it any wonder that he developped faster than Sasuke under those circumstances?
The fact is that the very first time Sasuke was put in real danger he awakened his Sharingan (which doesnt count I know), improved it again during his 2nd real battle and from that point on increased in power at a dramatical pace. Sasuke right now is still younger than Itachi in part 1, how strong can he grow in one more year? In part two Itachi was 21, how powerful could Sasuke be 4-5 years from now? Itachi surely had an earlier start but Sasuke rapidly filled the gap passed a certain age and is still increasing in power at a fast rate.

You also say that Sasuke's achievements hardly compare to Itachi's but I beg to differ, Sasuke elemental mastery is miles ahead of anything Itachi ever shown in this category, the creation of Kirin by itself is a feat virtually unmatched in the elemental jutsu department. Itachi was and probably always will be better in Genjutsu but he had nothing on Sasuke Ninjutsu-wise and while he was clearly better with the MS he also had years of experience to master it contrary to Sasuke who has it since what? 2 or 3 weeks now?

So long story short Itachi is indeed a genius, one of the greatest in this manga without a doubt but your dismissal of Sasuke looks like more of a personal issue you have with the character than what was shown in the story.
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Old 2012-09-03, 13:08   Link #74
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^Technically, it was Sasuke's fourth real battle...
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Old 2012-09-03, 14:10   Link #75
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I wouldn't call the two skirmishs before (Mist bro and Zabuza 1st appearance) real battle for Sasuke because he hardly did anything during them and thus didn't evolve.
The fight against Haku was the first one he had to better himself.
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Old 2012-09-03, 15:54   Link #76
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Itachi did continue to get stronger though. He went on to become a jounin and join the ANBU at a ridiculously early age. He then proceeded to awaken to the Mangekyou Sharingan and joined an organization of the most powerful ninjas alive. I fail to see the problem here.
I wasn't referring to Itachi; hence why I picked an arbitrary female Uchiha, and Itachi's name is not present in the post. I was criticizing the act of praising early achievement in preference of the extent of one's achievement, in response to how you choose to define a genius in the beginning of post 66.
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Old 2012-09-03, 16:19   Link #77
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Also you do count physical abilities as part of being a genius. What do you think Shikamaru and Kakashi's higher IQ is? They are smarter than nearly anyone and they use this innate ability to their advantage.
Just as they were born smarter there are people who are naturally stronger, tougher or faster. People like Nagato, Sasuke, Itachi and many others are natural born ninja. Naruto learned in a few day what Jiraiya couldn't master in a life time, that's what make them exceptional.
Well if you count a mental ability as a physical one then our definition of genius is completely different so there's really no point in arguing about it.
My impression was the the author wanted us to look at some characters (Kakashi, Minato, Itachi, Shikamaru) as being more effective at using their resources (jutsu, abilities and chakra) and analyzing the situation to choose the right action than others are. That's why i think that their genius is even above of the others, who of course are also geniuses in the ninja world but not as much.


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Your definition of outsmarting is always incredibly flimsy when Itachi is concerned.
I look only at the facts: Kabuto completely outpowered them and yet he failed to beat them. And again: i wasn't comparing Kabuto to Itachi but the brothers, if it was not for Itachi's decision Sasuke would already be captured by Kabuto. Sure Sasuke is a genius who can invent incredible things like taking control of a thunder.
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Old 2012-09-03, 16:31   Link #78
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Additionally, Itachi had the help of an entire clan in achieving his early advancements. I'm sure he trained on his own, but his Father, Mother and Shisui all undoubtedly helped him in training his abilities and Sharingan. Sasuke, on the other hand, had a handful of scrolls (after the massacre) and that's about it. (It certainly didn't help that his mind was raped and he was traumatized when he started training again.)
I think the instruction Sasuke received from Kakashi was nearly as good as instruction from an Uchiha. True, we don't see Kakashi directly training him to use Sharingan, but Sasuke did sharply hone his (copied) taijutsu under his guidance. Plus Kakashi shares the lightning affinity and knows powerful Raiton like Chidori, so he was especially suited to training Sasuke.

Still, agreed that the rate advancement doesn't really matter so much. It's just that Itachi was able to freely use his gifts at a much earlier age than Sasuke.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
saying itachi is a genius and sasuke is not is getting into the debate over who's a better genius, while casting aside the fact that they both are geniuses. sasuke was able to dispel itachi's tsukiomi with just a normal sharingan after all. i agree that itachi was better and smarter and by sasuke's own words 'perfect' although i wouldnt go that far myself. but sasuke's development is clearly genius as is his intelligence. just look at how he was able to diagnose everything deidara (a kage level fighter) did in the midst of a fast paced and deadly fight.
I think the difference is that Itachi's skill comes across as effortless. We never actually see the guy break a sweat in a fight until his battle with Sasuke. Even then he dominated most of the duel and was doing that knocking at death's door with illness. While Sasuke has arguably closed the gap in power, he continues to struggle. Killer Bee mopped the floor with him and both Raikage and Danzou pushed his limits.

All very high-level opponents sure, but Sasuke's decisions in battle a lot of times seem ad-libbed and clumsy compared to the precise, calculating execution of Itachi's jutsu. And he doesn't regularly show knowledge and analytical ability to the extent Kakashi does (he's quick-witted and clever, but not really a tactical fighter). In terms of achievement, Sasuke is a genius, no doubt. but I think his portrayal is more that of a talented ninja who has happened to accumulate a lot of power rather than a ninja whose genius allowed him to progress so far.
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Old 2012-09-03, 16:35   Link #79
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That's a weird thing to say, why do you have such an obssession with being wrong?
That doesn't even make any sense.

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Look I know this is discussion is pointless because when the basis of your reasoning is so patently absurd and illogical there is really nothing I can say to make you see the problem of your claim.
Opinion.

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But one more time just for the sake of the argument : I killed someone 5 years ago and another person yesterday so the first time I killed was yesterday because the first one doesn't count since I didn't kill anybody during those 5 years.
This is exactly your reasoning with a reframed subject, can't you see how nonsensical it is? As I said I guess not.
Oh well.
That's... Not even making sense. How is killing someone the same as using an ability?

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Moving on to a more substantial subject. Even ignoring Itachi why would you think Sasuke is only borderline compared to, say, Orochimaru when the man himself admitted that at the same age he was considerably less talented than Sasuke? Do you think he was lying to himself?
Well, he was an absolutely great ninja with an uber scientist brain to boot. He just didn't have the benefit of hax eyes.

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And in fact let's not ignore Itachi, a genius for sure who contrary to Sasuke started experiencing warfare at a younger age and never stopped until his death, is it any wonder that he developped faster than Sasuke under those circumstances?
The fact is that the very first time Sasuke was put in real danger he awakened his Sharingan (which doesnt count I know), improved it again during his 2nd real battle and from that point on increased in power at a dramatical pace. Sasuke right now is still younger than Itachi in part 1, how strong can he grow in one more year? In part two Itachi was 21, how powerful could Sasuke be 4-5 years from now? Itachi surely had an earlier start but Sasuke rapidly filled the gap passed a certain age and is still increasing in power at a fast rate.
I suppose, but how much of that is borrowed power? Oh, not everything of course. The Kirin and other Lightning moves were all him. But I never said Sasuke was a bad ninja or anything.

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You also say that Sasuke's achievements hardly compare to Itachi's but I beg to differ, Sasuke elemental mastery is miles ahead of anything Itachi ever shown in this category, the creation of Kirin by itself is a feat virtually unmatched in the elemental jutsu department. Itachi was and probably always will be better in Genjutsu but he had nothing on Sasuke Ninjutsu-wise and while he was clearly better with the MS he also had years of experience to master it contrary to Sasuke who has it since what? 2 or 3 weeks now?
He had to work his ass off to get that far though. Also had some damn good teachers.

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So long story short Itachi is indeed a genius, one of the greatest in this manga without a doubt but your dismissal of Sasuke looks like more of a personal issue you have with the character than what was shown in the story.
I never dismissed him? He's a really powerful imba hax ninja. O_o IMO he just had to take the long/hard route to get there. I'm entitled to my own opinion.


Oh well, I guess stating your opinion isn't allowed on a forum or something. My idea of a genius is different from yours. Maybe I should just never say anything about what I think at all or people start badrepping me for having an opinion that's different from theirs and that's oh so terrible. >_>

Last edited by Dengar; 2012-09-03 at 17:13.
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Old 2012-09-03, 17:38   Link #80
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Oh well, I guess stating your opinion isn't allowed on a forum or something.
On a forum, stating an opinion is as allowed as questioning an opinion though :/
You're simply being called out on your reasoning, and you aren't backing it up. The manga shows Sasuke awakening his sharingan at an ealier age, plain and simple. Saying it "doesn't count" is simply denying the facts, apparently because of a personal bias. I don't see why the gap between uses is relevant. If he awakened it to try and counter a genjitsu against Itachi, why would he not be able to use it again if he wished during the interval of him not being in any battles? Of course, there is no reason why :/

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Maybe I should just never say anything about what I think at all [..] >_>
If you put an opinion/argument/etc. forth on a public forum, you should be prepared for it to be scrutinized, and also expect people to state their opinions as well.

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I look only at the facts: [...]
Oh you have got to be kidding me. I've seen you create your "facts" right out of thin air on multiple occasions when you don't like how the plot turned out, explain away undesirable events, and at times even outright deny what the manga states. Give me a break.
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