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Old 2012-09-03, 11:05   Link #261
serenade_beta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenshinflyer View Post
Heheh. Exactly what I'm getting at.
Haha, if this was the US, they would have been more done than done.
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Old 2012-09-03, 17:59   Link #262
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Whether or not Ichiki was pressured into writing his blog post is not something that we can observe based on the events that have occurred so far. Regardless of whether he really meant it, that is still the stance that he is taking, for whatever reason, and I respect his decision.

I have read all the posts in this thread, and I don't see any compelling evidence to suggest that the apology wasn't sincere. One could argue that it should have been better phrased and whatnot, but the conclusions being drawn over here are all based on what we're reading into the events from bits and pieces without being shown the full picture. Allegations about the apology being insincere are ones that I'm really hesistant to make unless actual (not weak circumstantial) evidence is available. It is for this reason that notwithstanding all the questionable inferences being drawn, I lean towards the default position that the studio has issued an apology and Ichiki has decided to move on.
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Old 2012-09-03, 18:15   Link #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
Allegations about the apology being insincere are ones that I'm really hesistant to make unless actual (not circumstantial) evidence is available. It is for this reason that notwithstanding all the questionable inferences being drawn, I lean towards the default position that the studio has issued an apology and Ichiki has decided to move on.
There are posts that already explain why their claim for "misunderstanding" is nothing short of unbelievable, considering circumstances and points that are not even opinions but hard fact.

TL;DR…
 
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So far, there is -no- hard fact evidence, since there is no way to have them, unless you have the words from the involved party (and so far, we have a vague mention in the website, and few seiyuu, but no personal words from Yamanaka).
Consequently, there is no evidence the note was sincere either, -however- there are aggravating points that make the apology totally not convincing:
1) deleting the videos (It is highly questionable why, because they weren't tampered. if it was really a mere prank, why are they afraid of letting these live anyway? Especially the radio event)
2) cancelling the radio event (same point above: no reason if it was really a joke, so supposing it is that, there is no reason for them to cancel them).
3) Sueing people who will upload the videos, claiming the previous ones were shown "differently" of what actually happened (so that means ALL recording (both the event AND radio) were tampered and changed to make it like a malicious prank... really?)
4) no direct mention of Ichiki whatsoever (apology was directed towards the audience)
5) absolutely no detail whatsoever nor the purpose of all of this (aside of the PR?)

As it is, it has absolutely no weight in sincerity, since it doesn't cover the core problem of the prank: the damn reason of that.
So far, we have "business like" apology note, which are nowhere close to apology, and taking them for face value is dubious imho, especially how Japanese Society works a lot on the facade, requiring tricks to save face, or using someone to take all the blame for a company in general.

And frankly, there is a huge difference between Ichiki deciding to make that blog post because he really believes things went out of hand or him being forced to do that. The latter is absolutely not "his" decision at all. It is the usual context of people forced to quit their job instead of being fired: the former being "softed" to the public, despite pressure from highers up would be the cause, which means it is actually the latter.
We will probably never know the absolutely true stance for Ichiki unless the responsible behind that admit what they actually have done. But, wait... even with this "apology", we don't know jack why everything has happened so far, so it is back to square one. basically speaking, these apologies aren't any, and it will just add oil to fire, for those who feel unsatisfied by these and continue their boycott or whatever reckless actions they may perform.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-09-03 at 18:39.
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Old 2012-09-03, 18:27   Link #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
You know, I really, honestly, do believe that they were just trying to do a sort of version of "Punked". Where you mislead someone, pull the rug out from underneath them, laugh (hopefully with them, and not at them) a bit, and then they get compensated for their trouble. In this case, he was someone they were hiring as a PR guy, so he was taking part in a PR campaign. The issue is that he didn't know the nature of the PR campaign, and he actually is a bonafide voice actor. So the "punked" aspect failed because the believability is too high. If they just took some random guy off the street who really, really wanted to be in showbusiness, pulled this stunt on them, and then turned around and offered them a long-term job in their PR team... I don't know if there'd be the same hurt feelings. So from "marketing and business perspectives", I think what they were trying to do seems pretty clear to me.
From what I've read so far on this issue, I get the same feeling. Well, at least I hope that it was all a misunderstanding and not some evil ploy to ruin Ichiki.

I really love Kokoro Connect (It's my favorite current series behind SAO) and I would hate for the series to end prematurely over some misunderstanding. I'm just praying for everything to work itself out so we can all enjoy an excellent series. I am curious as to what management was thinking when they decided to pull this PR stunt, though... even if it is a misunderstanding, I feel like it should have been obvious that something would go wrong. I'm honestly surprised that no one challenged this and just went along with it...
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Old 2012-09-03, 18:44   Link #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post

Consequently, there is no evidence the note was sincere either, -however- there are aggravating points that make the apology totally not convincing:
1) deleting the videos (It is highly questionable why, because they weren't tampered. if it was really a mere prank, why are they afraid of letting these live anyway? Especially the radio event)
2) cancelling the radio event (same point above: no reason if it was really a joke, so supposing it is that, there is no reason for them to cancel them).
3) Sueing people who will upload the videos
4) no direct mention of Ichiki whatsoever
5) absolutely no detail whatsoever nor the purpose of all of this.
1+2) i agree
3) the threat of sueing people did kind of stop last year's escalated seiyuu "scandal" with Toyosaki and Tomatsu and maybe the other members of sphere.
4) on the kokoro connect hp he was mentioned:
"アニメ「ココロコネクト」では、宣伝活動の一環としまして、声優・市来光弘さんを宣伝活動のメインに迎え "
It's true that this was meant for the audience though.
5) the publicity backfired completely, eventhough i can't see the point of this kind of publicity in the first place.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
As it is, it has absolutely no weight in sincerity, since it doesn't cover the core problem of the prank: the damn reason of that.
So far, we have "business like" apology note, which are nowhere close to apology, and taking them for face value is dubious imho, especially how Japanese Society works a lot on the facade, requiring tricks to save face, or using someone to take all the blame for a company in general.
And frankly, there is a huge difference between Ichiki deciding to make that blog post because he really believes things went out of hand or him being forced to do that. The latter is absolutely not "his" decision at all. It is the usual context of people forced to quit their job instead of being fired: the former being "softed" to the public, despite pressure from highers up would be the cause, which means it is actually the latter.
We will probably never know the absolutely true stance for Ichiki unless the responsible behind that admit what they actually have done. But, wait... even with this "apology", we don't know jack why everything has happened so far, so it is back to square one. basically speaking, these apologies aren't any, and it will just add oil to fire, for those who feel unsatisfied by these and continue their boycott or whatever reckless actions they may perform.
Yeah, that was kind of my point of my earlier post about that an apology also means admitting. Who has the guts to admit that he was wrong and take the blame of it?

edit: after browsing through some the blogs of the involved seiyuu, they all speak of 誤解. But then again that is the official statement and like others have already pointed out that they can't write something that would contradict those statements. So of course, they can't be 100% sincere about this whole affaire.

Last edited by hyl; 2012-09-03 at 19:06.
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Old 2012-09-03, 19:33   Link #266
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Hm, I will admit I jumped to conclusions even while trying to be cautious when I first responded to this thread. Now I think relentlessflame's analysis makes the most sense and I'm inclined to believe this for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
If they just took some random guy off the street who really, really wanted to be in showbusiness, pulled this stunt on them, and then turned around and offered them a long-term job in their PR team... I don't know if there'd be the same hurt feelings.

...

Personally, I don't like "Punked", that sense of humour, or any shows like it. I find it in bad taste. But it's a very popular style of comedy in the entertainment business around the world today. So when they say their intentions were misunderstood, I can actually buy that. The whole thing reeks to me of a prank that was supposed to be funny, but went wrong due to some poor decisions and some people involved taking it too seriously (and being far too vicious). The organizers likely just wanted to have some sort of "fun" way to introduce their new PR guy, and someone came up with this.
Let's go with the whole thing is supposed to be funny. Then here's what I'm wondering.

1) Did they really decide to choose Ichiki (not completely unknown) instead of a very low profile seiyuu on purpose? The "believable" factor applies with Ichiki but may not apply to a more obscure seiyuu. And if they did, was it just an oversight or did they actually think it would be more funny?

2) Even in a "punked" context, did Taneshima and Kanemoto go overboard? This is akin to "beating a dead horse" -- yes let's say they believe it was rigged and Ichiki never expected to get the job, but did they have to draw out the joke so it becomes...no longer funny and scandalous?

3) If the production team is taken aback by these allegations, let's say they really only intended this to be a prank, was their response appropriate? We're not talking about covering up a vicious incident here, but if they actually believed they acted innocently. I still think even if we give them the benefit of the doubt, their statement (plus taking down the videos) didn't satisfy anyone.

And then, how do I feel about this situation and similar things in the future? Did 2ch go overboard and did we jump too conclusions too quickly? I think that a part of it was the seiyuu felt like they had an obligation to go along with the setup. But they still could've stopped at any time, or offer a word of comfort/encouragement to Ichiki on the radio show. Right now I'm thinking that no one had malicious intent, but people got hurt anyways in the process (as I can give many personal examples of), so an apology is nice even if you didn't intend what you did.

Spoiler for Kokoro Connect, Second Arc:
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Old 2012-09-03, 20:58   Link #267
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1) I wouldn't know if the same would have happened with another low profile seiyuu instead of Ichiki. Since Ichiki is a friend of Kanemoto I think, maybe the prank would be executed without so much problem on their part.

2) if it went overboard, I think Kanemoto, Taneshima and those involved should be the ones to apologize. If apologizing was the same as admitting, then they can save face. But remember that people will have different reactions to this.

3) If they believe they were innocent then people should not blame them and they should not worry about being involved in this prank.

Man I don't know what to say haha.
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Old 2012-09-03, 21:46   Link #268
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To put things into perspective, the blame falls solely onto those who planned the show. Kanemoto and Terashima are just the means of execution. Tools, if you would have it. In a way they are just as victimized as Ichiki as majority of anger are focused on them.

So far , we have not heard anything from Yamanaka, the only known source of everything. Only from the "tools". Remember, politics are at work here.
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Old 2012-09-03, 21:47   Link #269
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I don't know what to say, too. I thought the drama would end after Silver Link issued the response. The show's quotes starts making sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by summary from other BBS
Silver Link is fighting fire with oil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by summary from other BBS
Q: Why director/VP hasn't said anything?
Q: Why all VA's apologies similar to Sivler Link's apology?
A: Because all VA's hearts are linked together.
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Old 2012-09-03, 21:52   Link #270
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Is Ichika really a friend of Kanemoto?
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Old 2012-09-03, 22:20   Link #271
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Maybe.

My understanding though is that Ichiki has been the target of a similar prank by Yamanaka before, which tends to suggest this was not random.

My reading of the situation is that Yamanaka probably enjoys being in power over others, and that Ichiki has become a safe target for some unsavory ways of displaying that power.

Maybe Kanemoto is a friend of Ichiki in a jerkass type of way and thought this kind of prank was just the normal publicity stunt crap that actors have to put up with and that in the end it would help Ichiki. A friend who says things about how enjoyable it is to break his friend... yeah, well, I have known men who do say that sort of stuff about their... friends.

At the very least he's not a very good friend, but he might actually think that he is Ichiki's friend.
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Old 2012-09-03, 23:17   Link #272
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Kanemoto's a woman. IIUC, she was laughing at Ichiki afterwards, but wasn't directly part of the prank.
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Old 2012-09-04, 00:24   Link #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
Hm, I will admit I jumped to conclusions even while trying to be cautious when I first responded to this thread.
No, you had it right the first time.

This whole situation stinks to high heavens, you have that rather incriminating video evidence and radio show, and you don't think that anybody involved in this had ill-intent? Heck, your own questions make it clear just how unlikely it is that no ill-intent was here. Going by Occam's Razor, what's the simplest solution to the questions you're raising? The simplest solution is that there was malicious intent here, even if many of the people on the Kokoro Connect anime team thought it was a simple and legit publicity stunt. Why did some people go overboard, drag things out so much, and "beat a dead horse"? I think it's because that was the whole point for those people - It was intended (again, just by certain specific people) to humiliate Ichiki.

Plus, I'm amazed how people just keep completely ignoring Klash's excellent arguments. The most likely conclusion those arguments lead to is clear. To put it simply, some people wanted to get shits and giggles at considerable expense to Ichiki. That's obviously ill-intent, imo.
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Old 2012-09-04, 01:15   Link #274
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The "updated" apology is HILARIOUS.

Crying so hard and holding my sides right now.
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Old 2012-09-04, 01:22   Link #275
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Malicious intent or not, there had to be someone masterminding the entire program. He also needs to seek approval from somewhere. At this point, it's difficult to imagine that this humiliation is conceive as a group or even company wide effort against one single individual.

But finding the mastermind is a futile effort now given that there is no confession and everyone is distracted by the few presented at the crime scene. Also said mastermind must had been a influential person to draw up those "apologies".
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Old 2012-09-04, 01:48   Link #276
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As I said before, I'm not convinced because there is simply no hard evidence, and we are still relying on bits and pieces that may not even be linked. Simply put, we are looking at the events that have occurred so far an assuming that they were caused by earlier events when they very well may not have been.

Take for example the removal of the videos and the cancellation of the radio show. The arguments so far have been that the videos were removed because the studio was truly guilty of pulling a severe prank with no intention other than to humiliate Ichiki. That, however, is a leap of logic. It is more likely that the studio chose to take down those videos simply because of the negative PR from the internet brigade and 2ch, which does not imply anything about their initial intentions in pulling the prank.

Everyone, including Kashikari, concedes that there is no strong evidence either way, and while there have been several interesting theories and arguments about the circumstances behind the events, I'm not ready to draw negative conclusions against a studio simply because of what could have happened, what might have happened, what likely happened, or even using an Occam's Razor agument.

To me, the only strong evidence that we can rely on is Ichiki's blog post, because it came straight from the horse's mouth. There is zero evidence to suggest that Ichiki was forced to put up this post by his company, and even if that were indeed the case, the fact is that he made the choice to do so. What this means is that he has accepted what happened as part of the job (since he didn't quit his company or even leave the industry altogether), and wants to move on from it. What I really don't get is why so many folks insist on making the situation bigger than it really is when the victim himself has decided to accept it.

Edit: And for that matter, the studio has no reason or obligation to issue an apology to the public. Any such apology, if they want to make one, should be issued to Ichiki. I would even argue that the studio should not make the apology public, since all it will do is draw even more attention to the details of the events, which would only be to the detriment of everyone involved, including Ichiki.
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Old 2012-09-04, 01:54   Link #277
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^I don't particularly feel that strongly about the incident, I just feel sorry for the victim who'll be having a hard time for quite a while, but your faux-naivety is starting to really annoy me.

Look, you aren't taking the high horse, you're just acting like a hypocrite and going "no hard evidence" as if that excuses everything. Well just how many bullying incidents you've known and heard about have hard, irrefutable evidence? This one's got more than most, (suspiciously deleted) videos of the incident, a previous case, a clear power relationship, nonapologies (people keep talking about an apology...what apology? They said they did nothing wrong and the 2ch crowd can fuck off). Stop pretending to be stupid just to be contrarian.
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Old 2012-09-04, 02:03   Link #278
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
^I don't particularly feel that strongly about the incident, I just feel sorry for the victim who'll be having a hard time for quite a while, but your faux-naivety is starting to really annoy me.

Look, you aren't taking the high horse, you're just acting like a hypocrite and going "no hard evidence" as if that excuses everything. Well just how many bullying incidents you've known and heard about have hard, irrefutable evidence? This one's got more than most, (suspiciously deleted) videos of the incident, a previous case, a clear power relationship, nonapologies (people keep talking about an apology...what apology? They said they did nothing wrong and the 2ch crowd can fuck off). Stop pretending to be stupid just to be contrarian.
Lay off the flames. I don't appreciate being called "a hypocrite pretending to be stupid just to be contrarian" just because I take a different view, and there is no need for you to go down that path.

There is no single universal view as to the correct standard of proof required to ascertain whether or not an event did occur. I happen to prefer a higher standard of proof and you prefer a lower one, that's all.
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Old 2012-09-04, 02:16   Link #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erhjegel View Post
The "updated" apology is HILARIOUS.

Crying so hard and holding my sides right now.
Context? Just what is it they tried to apologize about in their... apology...

Yep.
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Old 2012-09-04, 02:16   Link #280
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The Kokoro Connect Production Committee made the crucial mistake of responding to any of the accusations and wild theories. As it stands, they can't write them off as merely false information, they gave the rumours some validity. Unfortunately for them, they have to release some information that will stick. But if Ichiki's blog didn't do the job, I'm not sure what will.

And as for removing of promotional contents, isn't this standard practice to remove them after a certain period of time? The rumours only gave them the push to remove them faster.
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