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Old 2012-09-03, 03:19   Link #61
Vladrave
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Old 2012-09-03, 13:10   Link #62
Vexx
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Anime is evolving.... the *commercial* aspect in the US may be dying. Fix the economy and it will help all niche hobbies. Didn't bother to watch the video but the Bebop image has me thinking the author is another "the one kind of anime *I* like isn't made as much, wah". Will watch it later and amend if necessary.
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Old 2012-09-03, 16:27   Link #63
Vladrave
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Love it when people is judging a video based on the first image, and no he isn't.
Watch it and you'll see. He does make good points.
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Old 2012-09-03, 18:51   Link #64
SeijiSensei
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OK, I watched it. Vexx is right. He doesn't make any points that haven't been made hundreds of times before and discussed here and on other sites like ANN incessantly.

Let's start with his claim that fansubs remain the big problem. In fact, while there are still groups that sub shows that are also available on streaming sites like Crunchyroll, more and more of us watch legal streams. Do you think CR could afford to license some three-quarters of all new anime series if there weren't people paying monthly subscription fees and generating advertising revenues? I suggest you compare the number of series listed on the AS main page today compared to two or three years ago. See how many fewer series are now listed? That's because most series are now licensed for simulcasting by CR, and to a lesser extent Funimation and Sentai, and thus no longer qualify as unlicensed English-language fansubbed works. One other thing you should notice if you make the comparison I suggest is that the number of fansubbing groups has sharply declined.

Then there is the problem of people in the rest of the world who do not have the same access to legal streams as we here in North America do. He mentions that issue briefly then never returns to it again. Of course I'd prefer it if people subscribed to CR and Netflix and bought anime DVDs and BDs from places like TRSi and Amazon. Those options are not available to people in many other parts of the world because the Japanese producers haven't taken steps to make services like CR available or license their works for DVD and BD release in those countries. (There's also the broader problem of regionalization, staggered releases, and the like which apply across the board. Why isn't Hulu available outside the US? Because American television producers want to maintain their relationships with their local network partners in foreign countries. That's a very large discussion that I cannot go into here.)

Next there is the issue that Vexx mentions, the "they aren't making anime I like any more" problem. His reactions to Bandai closing up shop seems to have much more to do with shows like Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star than with Haruhi or Lucky Star. We had a long and complex discussion of this subject only a few months' back. Perhaps you should read it.

I'll leave aside the subs/dubs argument. Most people here either prefer subs or don't care. If the future of the R1 anime industry depends on dubs, then it probably doesn't have a very bright future.

Next there is the fact that anime is made for the Japanese audience, not for people in other countries. If he wants to complain about the availability of the types of shows he finds appealing, he needs to ask whether those are the types of shows Japanese anime fans want to watch and, more importantly, purchase. Domestic sales of anime, the source material on which they are based like manga and light novels, and various associated paraphernalia like figurines and dakimakara account for the vast bulk of the revenues those companies earn. They aren't going to make shows that won't sell domestically even if they think there might be a market for them outside Japan. Having already been burned once by the collapse of the foreign anime market, Japanese producers are going to be very reluctant to make decisions based on how things might sell overseas.

Finally, there is the simple fact that anime isn't as popular in the West today as it was ten years ago. There was a bubble of interest stimulated by things like Toonami and [adult swim], but those days are largely over. Anime in the West is once again a very niche interest which makes it less profitable and less able to support a variety of distributors. There is also the simple fact that the players keep changing. He mentions ADV but fails to mention its successor Sentai. I don't see much discussion about new entrants like NISA either. Yes, Bandai has left the field, but if KyoAni released Haruhi today, do you really think none of the existing companies would license it? I don't.
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Old 2012-09-03, 20:08   Link #65
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladrave View Post
Love it when people is judging a video based on the first image, and no he isn't.
Watch it and you'll see. He does make good points.
Watched it... sorry, opinion of it wasn't changed. No point in repeating Sensei's remarks unless someone needs them in bullet form.

Suggest you read some of the various threads where we've already discussed these issues in great detail
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Old 2012-09-03, 20:47   Link #66
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
OK, I watched it. Vexx is right. He doesn't make any points that haven't been made hundreds of times before and discussed here and on other sites like ANN incessantly.

Let's start with his claim that fansubs remain the big problem. In fact, while there are still groups that sub shows that are also available on streaming sites like Crunchyroll, more and more of us watch legal streams. Do you think CR could afford to license some three-quarters of all new anime series if there weren't people paying monthly subscription fees and generating advertising revenues? I suggest you compare the number of series listed on the AS main page today compared to two or three years ago. See how many fewer series are now listed? That's because most series are now licensed for simulcasting by CR, and to a lesser extent Funimation and Sentai, and thus no longer qualify as unlicensed English-language fansubbed works. .
Now you're assuming that a majority of users are on this site. The way it works for a lot of people is that they go to the other sites via google and stream or download torrent. Just type "anime" in your goggle search bar without hitting "return" and see what comes up first. Hint: It's not this site. (It's #6.) It's the site that he mentioned in his rant.

Also, Goggle is planning to downgrade those sites. But even with the downgrade, you can still easily find them. Pretty telling for all traffic they are receiving still. Alot of people apparently don't bother looking past the first page.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...emoval-notices

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
One other thing you should notice if you make the comparison I suggest is that the number of fansubbing groups has sharply declined.
The decline in fansubbing groups could also be due to it being easier to rip from Crunchyroll and Funimation and posting the episode in the torrents than to sub it on their own.

And yeah, the rant said all that we've heard before. But heh, if it's repeated, maybe it will sink in.
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Old 2012-09-03, 20:48   Link #67
Random32
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I swear someone has posted this video before.

He is a "wah, the anime I like is disappearing" type. Vexx was 100% correct on this. That doesn't mean the video doesn't make good points though.

AZ's points are made from a very "Cowboy Bebop was the best anime ever made, fuck K-On" point of view, aimed at people who share his point of view on anime. Which means they aren't relevant to all anime fans, they are of very little relevance to me for example, since I identify much closer with "crazed otaku" he mentions than himself.

So basically, video is crap, but makes one very good point.

A lot of the anime the mainstream anime fanbase in the west like, were produced with them in specifically in mind. If the mainstream western anime fanbase refuse to pay for their anime, no one will, thus all the anime aimed at them would disappear.

This is a problem if you happen to like Trigun or Bacanno or whatever, thus it either go out and vote for more anime like what you want with your wallet, or shut up. If you like K-On or anything else with a large otaku fanbase, this doesn't concern you. (Though if you can, please buy something, you don't have to shell out half a grand for the full set of BR's, but if you can afford the US release boxset or a figure or other cheaper merchandise, please buy it.)
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Old 2012-09-03, 21:15   Link #68
orion
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Actually he wasn't doing the "Wah the anime that I like is disappearing!" It more a generalized rant with a "do more to save the industry" ending imo.
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Old 2012-09-03, 21:15   Link #69
Urzu 7
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I have the Mai Hime DVDs, volumes 1-3. I still have the fansubs, but they are SD 4:3 videos from 2004 and maybe early 2005 (or maybe all from 2004), so I figure they look like shit, so I went and purchased Mai Hime volumes 4-7 on DVD (thus completing the season). They'll be 480p and 16:9, which is better. This only ended up costing me about $25 with shipping. In between $25 and $30 for new DVDs.

There are still some other DVDs I'd like to get. I wanna purchase the Ah! My Goddess Season 2 Value Pack. I don't buy a lot of disc based releases these days, though. I just subscribed to Crunchyroll for a year (I'm happy with joining their service) and now I'm giving some thought to subscribing to Funimation's streaming service for HD videos and a better selection of videos. Is this a good way to support the industry? Subscribing to those two video services would be good for me, as I don't wanna buy discs of every series I want to watch these days.
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Old 2012-09-03, 21:29   Link #70
Terrestrial Dream
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asaqe View Post
This is why the Korean Wave is going to prosper while we are being pushed to irrelevancy.
I could see Korean Wave die soon. People will get tired of repetition of generic idol groups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
This is bad. The NA anime industry is dying. Let's hope it remains afloat long enough for the economy to recover because that is the root of this.
Well the bigger concern is Japanese economy and population growth. I am guessing the audience even in Japan has been shrinking.
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Old 2012-09-03, 21:41   Link #71
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Now you're assuming that a majority of users are on this site.
Not really. It probably depends a lot on whether we're talking about simulcasts or older series.

Of the series I watch and discuss here, most of the American viewers seem to be using CR. But then we're watching things like noitaminA, Space Brothers, Chihayafuru, and the like. Discussions for series like those generally appear within the first day after the shows appear on CR. People in other parts of the world? I have no idea. I suppose they could be watching Horrible torrents.

For shows that aren't simulcast, my sense is that a lot of people watch them on illegal streaming sites, which I consider the scum of the earth. Whatever one might want to say about fansubs, no one is profiting directly from them. However I find collecting advertising revenue to stream fansubs you haven't made of shows you have no right to distribute pretty indefensible. Torrents, I suspect, are more and more the province of dedicated fans.

Anyway, none of this applies to Bandai except very indirectly, and we've all had these discussions before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
A lot of the anime the mainstream anime fanbase in the west like, were produced with them in specifically in mind. If the mainstream western anime fanbase refuse to pay for their anime, no one will, thus all the anime aimed at them would disappear.
I think those shows largely disappeared some years ago. Eden of the East is the last show I can think of that might fit that characterization. Nowadays, though, the vast bulk of anime targets domestic otaku.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I just subscribed to Crunchyroll for a year (I'm happy with joining their service) and now I'm giving some thought to subscribing to Funimation's streaming service for HD videos and a better selection of videos. Is this a good way to support the industry? Subscribing to those two video services would be good for me, as I don't wanna buy discs of every series I want to watch these days.
I belong to CR but not to Funimation. The only show they have licensed for streaming that I have watched recently was Mine Fujiko. I didn't care that I had to wait a week and watch it through Hulu. I find ads annoying, but they pay the bills. If Funi licensed more shows that I like, I might consider subscribing to them, too.

On the other hand, the number of companies that want to stream their own material keeps growing. Not only does it balkanize the market, it makes streaming less and less economical. Now VIZ has its own service that streams to PS3's. CR is a good deal at $7/month for a large fraction of the new releases and no commercials. But now Funi wants another $8, The Anime Network wants $7, and so does VIZ. I don't think that will fly. The VIZ service is apparently all dubs which takes it off the table for me even if I cared about the content they are offering. It also will include commercials and operate as a linear channel rather than an on-demand service. I guess that might appeal to Naruto viewers, but I don't see it having much appeal beyond mainstream fans. TAN has the large ADV back catalog and a lot of subtitled material. I cannot find a service description that tells me if subscribers have to watch ads or not, though. I won't pay for a subscription service that also includes advertising. That makes Hulu Plus a non-starter for me as well.

Netflix would be an option, but as far as I can tell it only distributes dubs. There's also some anime on Amazon Instant Video, but again only with dubbing.

If we're going to continue talking about streaming, we should probably do it over here.
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Old 2012-09-03, 22:38   Link #72
Ryusiangel
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wow i have a few bandai titles, how many anime companies we have now beside rightstuf, funinmation, sentai filmworks? I think i mostly buy from those
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Old 2012-09-04, 02:45   Link #73
Vladrave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Actually he wasn't doing the "Wah the anime that I like is disappearing!" It more a generalized rant with a "do more to save the industry" ending imo.
^This exactly. It's fine if you people mostly disagrees with him but he does at least have some good points. Here in the philippines, Original Bluray animes and DVDs are Pretty rare so as movies. If you would find a DVD or bluray of it, it's pirated and the quality is shit compared to its original counterpart(Obviously) and the ones i download here at the internet. That is why most of us rely on watching illegal streaming and downloading animes. If there is at least that many DVDs or Blurays here, then i would definitely buy it. I'm beginning to think that most people would rather rely on fansubs,Torrents ETC. I'm not saying i'm not one of them because that would be pretty hypocritical but what choice do i have? I'm only 15 and still doesn't even have my own credit card to pre-order my favorite animes let alone a game that i'm anticipating and get it's pre-order bonuses. Oh and i don't really know how much users in NA or in the world used legal streaming like in crunchy roll so forgive my ignorance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Watched it... sorry, opinion of it wasn't changed. No point in repeating Sensei's remarks unless someone needs them in bullet form.

Suggest you read some of the various threads where we've already discussed these issues in great detail
Fair enough
Although it would be pretty tiring, i'll do my best to finish it whatever how many pages it have.

Last edited by Vladrave; 2012-09-04 at 03:02.
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Old 2012-09-04, 03:10   Link #74
Vexx
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To be honest, I wouldn't be too upset if the entire overseas "legal" licensing scheme collapsed along with the companies (who often just screw up anyway, don't finish what they start, use antiquated sub technology, etc). That would make torrents, ddl, etc were the only channels. I spend quite enough money buying directly from Japan (figures, CDs, manga, live concert blu-ray, etc).

If the Japanese companies would get off their "20th century" butts and do their own global subtitled streaming, I'd subscribe in a heartbeat especially if they'd offer a globally priced DVD/BR collection afterward.

I used to be more positive about support overseas licensing but I guess I've watched far too many companies just make a mess, fail at running a business, fail at public relations, and leave angry customers in their demise.

If Funimation and Yen and a few others can avoid those train wrecks, fabulous, but I'm really hesitant to spend money on anything but completed series from an R1 distributor any more.
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Old 2012-09-04, 03:29   Link #75
Vladrave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
If the Japanese companies would get off their "20th century" butts and do their own global subtitled streaming, I'd subscribe in a heartbeat especially if they'd offer a globally priced DVD/BR collection afterward.

lol i definitely agree and correct me if i'm wrong, it seems another of the problems is the porting of DVDs and BR? Maybe one of the reason why Original DVDs and BR are rare on my country or.....another reason is for them to avoid piracy


Although i'm pretty happy that crunchy roll was now on PS3 and if i remember correctly in order to download the app, you need a premium account and only works for USA and Canada right now.
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Old 2012-09-04, 11:03   Link #76
Random32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Actually he wasn't doing the "Wah the anime that I like is disappearing!" It more a generalized rant with a "do more to save the industry" ending imo.
He was going "Wah the anime that I like is disappearing." He is complaining that if western mainstream fans don't buy anime, western mainstream anime (that he likes) would disappear. This is true, but it is still basically a "Wah the anime that I like is disappearing" rant.
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Old 2012-09-05, 04:19   Link #77
Roloko vi Britannia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryusiangel View Post
wow i have a few bandai titles, how many anime companies we have now beside rightstuf, funinmation, sentai filmworks? I think i mostly buy from those
NIS America, S'more Entertainment, Media Blasters (well they will be joining the list of dead companies soon), Aniplex USA and Diskotek Media.

I wouldn't be surprised if we get new comers like NIS. I doubt anime will die out in the US anytime soon, but if the economy dosen't pick itself back up soon it will be the death of anime in America when it comes to physical releases well except for Aniplex since they can do what they did with Fate/Zero. Crunchyroll will be the only place left to watch anime legally.

More and more Japanese companies are releasing stuff particularly Bandai English subbed so people outside of Japan can import their stuff and thus more profit than what they would get if people bought the R1 DVDs.
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Old 2012-09-05, 05:44   Link #78
Kirarakim
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We are still getting a lot of series licensed over here. In fact this year I think I've bought more than a while. So it doesn't seem the anime industry is dying just yet.

I'll just continue to buy what I enjoy.
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Old 2012-09-05, 12:02   Link #79
Vexx
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heh!!!! Apparently my last post netted someone who thought something was seriously wrong with me for being disgusted with the R1 licensing industry.

I spend a thousand dollars or year or more on this hobby, much of it sent directly to Japan. I wonder how much the anonymous spends.
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Old 2012-09-05, 13:46   Link #80
Sister Princess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
We are still getting a lot of series licensed over here. In fact this year I think I've bought more than a while. So it doesn't seem the anime industry is dying just yet.

I'll just continue to buy what I enjoy.
SentaiSentaiSentaiSentai.....

You sure about that?

More importantly, are light novels harder to license than anime? R1 market didn't aware of light novel boom for around 5 years.
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