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Old 2012-09-04, 02:33   Link #281
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What's the updated apology? I would be interested in a translation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, you had it right the first time.

This whole situation stinks to high heavens, you have that rather incriminating video evidence and radio show, and you don't think that anybody involved in this had ill-intent? Heck, your own questions make it clear just how unlikely it is that no ill-intent was here. Going by Occam's Razor, what's the simplest solution to the questions you're raising? The simplest solution is that there was malicious intent here, even if many of the people on the Kokoro Connect anime team thought it was a simple and legit publicity stunt. Why did some people go overboard, drag things out so much, and "beat a dead horse"? I think it's because that was the whole point for those people - It was intended (again, just by certain specific people) to humiliate Ichiki.
I agree that there could be ill intentions, but maybe most within the staff may just have been "going along with the flow" without thinking twice. Now that's still their problem for not thinking a bit more about how this may affect Ichiki. But what I'm really wondering is, is there one mastermind and the rest took on the naive roll of "follow the leader" or did everyone who was involved thought this was funny? Is there even a clear distinction between the two? Just like you said, I'm more interested in who these "certain specific people" are and whether or not the seiyuu, who got the most heat after Yamanaka, are in the "follower" or "planner" crowd or if it even matters.

I'm just trying to flesh out my opinions and throw ideas out there...and try to see if I can come to Klashikari's conclusion or someone else's after a while. The questions I posed were actually meant to question my new stance, but I think you got that. I like being my own devil's advocate.
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Old 2012-09-04, 02:39   Link #282
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I think people need to remember that we're not in a court of law here. We're not looking to convict anybody of anything, so there's no absolute presumption of innocence. People are just trying to ascertain what most likely occurred here given how this story has evolved over time.

Determining what most likely occurred isn't just a matter of "hard evidence". You don't always have "hard evidence" to work with, but rather just a timeline and a series of clues, events, reports, etc... that you need to piece together to try to figure out what most likely happened. And when doing that, it's important to keep human nature in mind and not just presume that everybody is being entirely honest.

Let's just say that I very much doubt that Hyouka's Oreki Houtarou, if told by Chitanda that she was curious about this incident, would come to the conclusion that nobody involved in this had ill-intent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
Malicious intent or not, there had to be someone masterminding the entire program. He also needs to seek approval from somewhere. At this point, it's difficult to imagine that this humiliation is conceive as a group or even company wide effort against one single individual.

But finding the mastermind is a futile effort now given that there is no confession and everyone is distracted by the few presented at the crime scene. Also said mastermind must had been a influential person to draw up those "apologies".
Yeah, I agree with all of this. Whoever masterminded this is the person most at fault, for sure.

I think there's plenty of innocent people in this, but I really don't think that everybody involved in this is innocent.


Just to be clear, I'm not continuing this debate out of some hope of determining who the mastermind is. But I don't want this to be viewed as just a misunderstanding, because I honestly think Ichika deserves better than that (even if he himself was pressured into covering for the Kokoro Connect Production Committee).
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Old 2012-09-04, 03:03   Link #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think people need to remember that we're not in a court of law here. We're not looking to convict anybody of anything, so there's no absolute presumption of innocence. People are just trying to ascertain what most likely occurred here given how this story has evolved over time.
Yes this is exactly what I'm thinking. It's better to form our opinions than just nodding at what 2chan says or what the production team posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Just to be clear, I'm not continuing this debate out of some hope of determining who the mastermind is. But I don't want this to be viewed as just a misunderstanding, because I honestly think Ichika deserves better than that (even if he himself was pressured into covering for the Kokoro Connect Production Committee).
There's a clear line between misunderstanding and the mastermind idea. But like relentlessflame posted, the entire "punked" idea is viewed as "mean/bullying" for some of us (including him and me) but for many people across the world, it's entertainment. So there's a probability that the mastermind had malicious intent, yes, but he could also thought it would be...somehow acceptable too, while giving the show more positive PR. My main concerns are about the seiyuu who may just be following along because they believe they're doing what's best for the anime. Yes they are at fault for "going the extra mile" rubbing it in, but they might also be getting too much criticism when most of it should be directed at some higher ups (including Yamanaka) who are doing their best staying quiet. So simply put, there may have been too much "convenience blaming" on 2chan's part and I don't want to make that same mistake.
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Old 2012-09-04, 03:05   Link #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think people need to remember that we're not in a court of law here. We're not looking to convict anybody of anything, so there's no absolute presumption of innocence. People are just trying to ascertain what most likely occurred here given how this story has evolved over time.

Determining what most likely occurred isn't just a matter of "hard evidence". You don't always have "hard evidence" to work with, but rather just a timeline and a series of clues, events, reports, etc... that you need to piece together to try to figure out what most likely happened. And when doing that, it's important to keep human nature in mind and not just presume that everybody is being entirely honest.

Let's just say that I very much doubt that Hyouka's Oreki Houtarou, if told by Chitanda that she was curious about this incident, would come to the conclusion that nobody involved in this had ill-intent.




Yeah, I agree with all of this. Whoever masterminded this is the person most at fault, for sure.

I think there's plenty of innocent people in this, but I really don't think that everybody involved in this is innocent.


Just to be clear, I'm not continuing this debate out of some hope of determining who the mastermind is. But I don't want this to be viewed as just a misunderstanding, because I honestly think Ichika deserves better than that (even if he himself was pressured into covering for the Kokoro Connect Production Committee).
^Now this is something I can agree with. There's no presumption of innocence, but we each have different standards of proof that we implicitly require in order to believe something, and there is no one standard that is universally accepted as being correct. It's precisely because we aren't in a court of law and are thus not bound by any statutes concerning evidence law, which is why it is perfectly reasonable, even probable, that we can look at the same set of events and draw different conclusions regarding what happened.

What I took offence to was the previous poster's baseless accusation that I was simply arguing for the sake of arguing and his incorrect claim that I was ignoring everyone else's arguments, when all it came down to was different standards.

Last edited by frivolity; 2012-09-04 at 03:15.
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Old 2012-09-04, 03:33   Link #285
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Kokoro Connect Staff Issues Statements on Performer's Treatment
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Old 2012-09-04, 03:48   Link #286
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The new post on the official website outlines how they had intended for this whole thing to fit into the promotional plan for the show. According to the post, they had been intending to make a "call-back" to this whole situation, and announce (right after the show had finished airing) that Ichiki would actually be a surprise voice actor in the final arc (that won't air on regular TV) -- which he is, by the way. But, in spite of believing they had the cooperation of the all those involved, essentially the whole plan backfired because the fans didn't know what was really going on.

Also, the new announcement apologizes for the way the first announcement appeared to use the threat of going after people as a way of dodging the real issue, and this caused even more misunderstanding (as we saw in this thread).


If I'm understanding correctly, the insinuation here was that everyone involved knew that Ichiki was going to be part of the cast from the get-go (starting with the fourth arc), but they (including Ichiki) had to keep it a secret as part of the PR plan. Even some of the things Ichiki said would have been knowing that he really had a role, he just had to pretend he didn't and that he had no idea about the game they were playing -- when really he did. The previous responses (and the first company line) were a gross misjudgement of thinking they had to somehow stick to the PR plan (and this is why they got mad about the uploads, etc. -- it was ruining their plan), but then they realized that was even more stupid, and now just flat out spilled the whole plan because it's pointless to keep it a secret now.

More and more, this sounds like a case of "If anything can go wrong, it will."


Edit: Interesting to note that, unlike the last bulletin that was signed by "All Kokoro Connect Staff", this new bulletin was signed by the "Kokoro Connect Production Committee", which means the whole thing got escalated to the highest level of the chain now.

One more point they make in the middle of explaining the plan is that they explicitly told some of the people involved to deliberately "over-play" (over-act?) one of the "punishment game" acts, and they apologize for that.
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Old 2012-09-04, 03:57   Link #287
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Well, at least this is ending well for Ichiki (or as well as possible, given the circumstances, anyway).

I'm of two minds about this updated info, but I get the sense that lessons have been learned here, whatever the complete truth may be.

And I hope that this will let Kokoro Connect bounce back, commercially. Again, lessons have been learned here, so I hope any boycott against the anime is dropped with this.
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Old 2012-09-04, 04:17   Link #288
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Man, how did this happen? It sounds like if everything went on just as planned, Ichiki would really catch his big break and the stunt on Ichiki was actually a stunt on us, and we would just laugh it off as being "punked" ourselves. But then again, if anything can go wrong, it will. I congrats to Ichiki for landing a good role and hopes that Kokoro Connect will bounce back.
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Old 2012-09-04, 04:18   Link #289
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I don't think this will die out, because the production committee has found itself in a spiral where no matter what reasonable explanation they come up with (indeed, it was a stupid PR campaign), the outraged public won't accept it. For them, it's really hard to do that at this point, because they're convinced that all the flags weren't fake. I mean, just seeing some posters in this thread, they're not only looking at the evidence and drawing conclusions, they're emotionally vested in this. Maybe because bullying is such a sensitive topic for this crowd. And precisely because of that, the whole PR stunt was insensitive and poorly executed. If the anime deserves "losses" in sales, it's because the PR stunt was intended as part of the product.
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Old 2012-09-04, 04:35   Link #290
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Guess that tweet by Kikuchi, and that segment in Sugita's show, and that previous prank by Yamanaka, were all just promotional stunts then? What a relief! I guess we can just dismiss all those malicious words and actions during the streamed event and the radio shows too! All in good fun! I wish I could electrocute someone that easily and call it a day!

Tehe~! Ichiki's going to get a role in the somewhat distant future, people! It's all okay now!
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Old 2012-09-04, 04:49   Link #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
I don't think this will die out, because the production committee has found itself in a spiral where no matter what reasonable explanation they come up with (indeed, it was a stupid PR campaign), the outraged public won't accept it. For them, it's really hard to do that at this point, because they're convinced that all the flags weren't fake. I mean, just seeing some posters in this thread, they're not only looking at the evidence and drawing conclusions, they're emotionally vested in this. Maybe because bullying is such a sensitive topic for this crowd. And precisely because of that, the whole PR stunt was insensitive and poorly executed. If the anime deserves "losses" in sales, it's because the PR stunt was intended as part of the product.
Well, yeah, if there's any lesson that the entire anime industry will learn from this, it's to not do any PR campaign that involve any perceived "bullying", even as an act.

And yeah, honestly, I can see how it's a sensitive topic "for this crowd" -- normally I would resent your phrasing things that way, but in this case I'll allow myself to be included. I suppose, frankly, I don't really understand why it isn't as sensitive for everyone... but I do recognize that "Punked" acts are common in entertainment these days, and I'm sure to the PR people who designed this campaign, it didn't seem particularly unusual or problematic. They just didn't really understand all the dynamics at play, and probably never even considered what could go wrong (and really, who could imagine it turning out like this?).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Erhjegel View Post
Guess that tweet by Kikuchi, and that segment in Sugita's show, and that previous prank by Yamanaka, were all just promotional stunts then? What a relief! I guess we can just dismiss all those malicious words and actions during the streamed event and the radio shows too! All in good fun! I wish I could electrocute someone that easily and call it a day!

Tehe~! Ichiki's going to get a role in the somewhat distant future, people! It's all okay now!
It doesn't mean that all the people involved are blameless and have never done anything wrong, whether in the midst of this situation or outside of it. The hyperbole in your sarcasm is ridiculous.

But, given the extensive involvement of the staff to carry out this plan, I think the explanation offered now is much, much more likely than having so many people on so many levels be involved in malicious systematic bullying of a staff member for no good reason, nor that they'd come up with the idea of offering him a role now as some sort of consolation prize. That theory never once added up for me. This explanation seems much more likely. It's quite likely that some people took the joke too far, and may have even secretly enjoyed the game even though they knew what was really going on (that they'd soon reveal this casting)... but yeah.

Bullying is a real, serious problem everywhere. That they made light of it was insensitive at best. This whole situation is sure to have wide-ranging repercussions across the industry, so I don't think anyone is pretending that "it's all okay now". It's not okay. But, I do think it's over.
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Old 2012-09-04, 05:00   Link #292
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Yeah, the problem with the PR stunt was the insensitive display of bullying, regardless of intent. I'm glad though that Ichiki actually got his role and I hope for the best from him. At the very least, now I'm interested in this voice acting ability and will remember his name for future anime.
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Old 2012-09-04, 05:05   Link #293
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1) I've been staying away from this series as far as possible.

2) I read the opening post, and thought: "OK. What's the big deal? So freakin' what?"

I must be missing something here.
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Old 2012-09-04, 05:09   Link #294
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I never meant everyone, of course, and yes the hyperbole was completely ridiculous. But I'm amused that those who directly enjoyed their roles of torturing Ichiki just chuck it in to another day's work, as "it was all a stunt". Using bullying as a stunt? Tasteless at the very least. Some of the stuff they did, however, tasteless doesn't even cut it. But whatever, the issue's dead now.

Though I'm still curious as to whether his "PR work" entailing him to pay out of his own pocket was true or not.
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Old 2012-09-04, 05:13   Link #295
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What is this I don't even...

So the whole thing was a prank (against Ichiki) within a prank (against us). Well-played prank-ception
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Old 2012-09-04, 05:17   Link #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
The hyperbole in your sarcasm is ridiculous.
Well, that is the point of being sarcastic, isn't it? I think he probably meant the same thing you explained, just not in a direct manner.

Anyways, if this turned out to be true (we will have to see if he really got a role later in the anime, though it should be beyond doubt already), then once again, I give my condolences to KitaEri, the lone victim that should never even happen.
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Old 2012-09-04, 05:25   Link #297
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Well, there's also the (remote) possibility that one of the involved in this campaign is a mafia member and that nobody, even Ichiki, dared to go against his word. At least that was my immediate thought after hearing about the incident a couple of days ago. But I think the posters who spammed Kitamura's Twitter account have made it clear, at least to me, that it was indeed an issue of emotions running out of hand. On top of bullying, the pillow business incidents have never really been forgotten by the Japanese otaku collective. A perfect storm of emotions and trolls and (we have to admit this) overseas cultural ignorance.
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Old 2012-09-04, 05:29   Link #298
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Well, that is the point of being sarcastic, isn't it? I think he probably meant the same thing you explained, just not in a direct manner.
Well, fair enough, but I don't think anyone (even the staff) are implying that this whole thing should be forgotten or ignored. That was the implication some people got from the tone of the first statement, but I really didn't see the same tone in the new statement. There's no "this was all just a misunderstanding caused by people taking things out of context" this time. The entire new statement basically amounts to "we screwed up, and here's how". So that's why I thought it was a bit ridiculous, even as sarcasm. In any case, I guess the point was conveyed regardless.
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Old 2012-09-04, 05:44   Link #299
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, fair enough, but I don't think anyone (even the staff) are implying that this whole thing should be forgotten or ignored. That was the implication some people got from the tone of the first statement, but I really didn't see the same tone in the new statement. There's no "this was all just a misunderstanding caused by people taking things out of context" this time. The entire new statement basically amounts to "we screwed up, and here's how". So that's why I thought it was a bit ridiculous, even as sarcasm. In any case, I guess the point was conveyed regardless.
That's true. My apologies for coming off so...obnoxious, as my earlier post definitely did not help.
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Old 2012-09-04, 07:00   Link #300
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So in the end, the entire stunt hinged on the hope that the audience would laugh off the issue of bullying in order for it to be a success? Seems unnecessarily risky to me, but hey hindsight is always 20/20.
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