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Old 2012-08-20, 06:02   Link #1161
Lota
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See, the thing is, I HATE harems. With a passion. Can't watch 'em. But this, this I like. The characters are all wacko, and, although the romance element is naturally there, they're all friends. Yes, even Yozora and Sena. And, even though, even in harems, the female lead is usually also quite clear, here it is everything but.
I also hate uncertain male leads and endings. But here, I'd feel soooooo bad for either member of the harem if Kodaka chose a girlfriend among them, that I wouldn't even mind if he didn't choose anyone

Last edited by Lota; 2012-08-21 at 02:58. Reason: stupid grammar XD
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Old 2012-08-20, 06:40   Link #1162
potchip
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Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
Uh wouldn't a harem end be best ? I mean the only other options would be he chooses one and the rest are left empty handed and sad. He chooses nobody and we get an ambiguous open ending where they still fight for his affection which I dislike, or he chooses them all and they all live happily ever after in Sena's summer beach house...
The problem with harem format is the 'at the end...he choosees' bit - as if everything's on a platter and a multiple choice question where ABCDE all are correct answers. There are no consequences other than for various shippers.

Don't mind Sena X Yozora end though :P
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Old 2012-08-20, 09:16   Link #1163
evil|plushie
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Do not see any of these girls sharing. Ever.
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Old 2012-08-20, 10:04   Link #1164
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Do not see any of these girls sharing. Ever.
Considering Yozora and Sena, harem or YozoraXSena ending are impossible.
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Old 2012-08-20, 19:26   Link #1165
sky black swordman
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Do not see any of these girls sharing. Ever.
What about Rika?
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Old 2012-08-20, 23:02   Link #1166
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Considering Yozora and Sena, harem or YozoraXSena ending are impossible.
funny how i readed this just after reading the last chapter of shobon.
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Old 2012-08-20, 23:34   Link #1167
Okashira
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Originally Posted by sky black swordman View Post
But I find sometimes her actions wrong like when she bullies Sena and gets pissed off when Kodoka calls her one.
Wrong. The only time that Yozora "exploded" when called bully was when she and Kodaka were discussing Riaju methods of bullying, (like flaming people on bbs anonymously (without "dirtying one self")and other methods like ganging up on someone (using "group pressure")), it's when Kodaka said "you are just like that" that Yozora truly got mad.

Furthermore, pretty much every time that Kodaka does a tsukkomi calling her oni/demon/bully or something she normally shows remorse (but 90% of the time doesn't reflect on it). There are also times when she still follows through cynically with her attacks, but even then she still understand what she is doing (and thus, doesn't show anger or whatever when being called names).
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Old 2012-08-21, 01:48   Link #1168
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Truth be told, haganai is not particularly brilliant writing, and follows just about most of the conventional LN cliches. To start off, one need to acknowledge Kodaka's role as the narrator, who gives perspectives, which are as important as the actual events. For anime viewers there's a tendency to focus on events then go off to interpret it in their own way - but a big chunk of the writing is in the narration, which is naturally lost in animated medium (well, you can't always have the main character talking to himself and have inner conversations in anime). I don't see a lot of discussion about the 'tidbits' like Kodaka detecting a hint of a smile, a pursed lip, faint mutterings etc from the girls as seen by Kodaka.

Bottomline, one have to read the novels (and be familiar with LN format in the first instance) to piece together the bits and pieces.
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Old 2012-08-21, 03:48   Link #1169
sky black swordman
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Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
Wrong. The only time that Yozora "exploded" when called bully was when she and Kodaka were discussing Riaju methods of bullying, (like flaming people on bbs anonymously (without "dirtying one self")and other methods like ganging up on someone (using "group pressure")), it's when Kodaka said "you are just like that" that Yozora truly got mad.

Furthermore, pretty much every time that Kodaka does a tsukkomi calling her oni/demon/bully or something she normally shows remorse (but 90% of the time doesn't reflect on it). There are also times when she still follows through cynically with her attacks, but even then she still understand what she is doing (and thus, doesn't show anger or whatever when being called names).
True and your right I kinda confused anime dialogue with LN dialogue.

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Originally Posted by potchip View Post
To start off, one need to acknowledge Kodaka's role as the narrator, who gives perspectives, which are as important as the actual events. For anime viewers there's a tendency to focus on events then go off to interpret it in their own way - but a big chunk of the writing is in the narration, which is naturally lost in animated medium (well, you can't always have the main character talking to himself and have inner conversations in anime)
The only show I think were they keep the narrator or narration is The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.
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Old 2012-09-04, 00:56   Link #1170
Okashira
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Vexed released a new chapter, filled with carnage between a fiance and childhood friend
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Old 2012-09-04, 04:30   Link #1171
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And Yozora's heart has just audibly broke. At last. the long awaited Fiancee chapter has finally been translated! Thanks Vex!

Anyway, I still think that Hagani will subvert the Peaking Concept

Spoiler for Comparisons to other Romances:
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Old 2012-09-04, 06:02   Link #1172
sky black swordman
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Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
Vexed released a new chapter, filled with carnage between a fiance and childhood friend
I just read it. Woah Yozora is well you know.
Rika was a bit too. Well nowhere near Yozora, just a bit.
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Last edited by sky black swordman; 2012-09-04 at 20:23.
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Old 2012-09-04, 06:17   Link #1173
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Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Anyway, I still think that Hagani will subvert the Peaking Concept

Spoiler for Comparisons to other Romances:
These are the key questions: What do you think the primary theme of this story is? What is the primary message? What is the premise, and how does the (purported) conclusion tie back to that premise? Is the speculated development a logical way of arriving to the resolution of the central plot premise and all its remaining loose ends?

In the end, you have to keep in mind that not every story that contains romance is a love story (even if it is, in whole or in part, a "story about love").
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Old 2012-09-04, 07:27   Link #1174
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So this makes Sena the first girl now?
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Old 2012-09-04, 08:11   Link #1175
Sepheria
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So this makes Sena the first girl now?
No, the first girl is the one, the MC encounters first in the chronology of the tale, not in the history's chronology. However, I don't think it's relevant. If we were talking about real harem then yes, but in this case, a lot of things are different from an regular harem. Moreover, the autor isn't obliged to use it.
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Old 2012-09-04, 08:19   Link #1176
frivolity
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Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
And Yozora's heart has just audibly broke. At last. the long awaited Fiancee chapter has finally been translated! Thanks Vex!

Anyway, I still think that Hagani will subvert the Peaking Concept

Spoiler for Comparisons to other Romances:
MGX isn't a really good example. The title itself already shows that there was only meant to be that one girl, Urabe, who is Tsubaki's girlfriend. Of course, NTR is always a possibility...

The main reasoning around peaking is that once all the mysteries around a love interest's relationship with the MC have been resolved, there's not much left to explore in the remaining novels. The corollary to this is that characters that have not been fully explored become much more likely to be the end girl. One qualification that needs to be made, of course, is that this becomes moot if the novel is coming to an end and it's too late to develop the unexplored character into as the end girl, but that's not really relevant to Haganai at this point.

In this case, Haganai isn't close to being finished, but Sena's cards have mostly been played already. On the other hand, the feelings of Yozora, Rika, and even Yukimura are still mysteries. It is difficult (though not impossible) for the author to explorer those three while having Kodaka enter into a relationship with Sena at the same time. What's really important right now is Kodaka's reaction in the next novel, because that is extremely significant in foreshadowing how the novel will end.

I support Sena though and I really hope Haganai becomes an exception to the rule with regard to peaking.

As an aside, one example that is sort of an exception to the peaking rule is
Spoiler:

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2012-09-04 at 16:54. Reason: Double posted.
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Old 2012-09-04, 09:10   Link #1177
novalysis
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
These are the key questions: What do you think the primary theme of this story is? What is the primary message? What is the premise, and how does the (purported) conclusion tie back to that premise? Is the speculated development a logical way of arriving to the resolution of the central plot premise and all its remaining loose ends?

In the end, you have to keep in mind that not every story that contains romance is a love story (even if it is, in whole or in part, a "story about love").
Nothing prevents a genre shift either.

Spoiler for For other genre shifting mangas:


It will be Perfectly logical (outside of the Harem genre) for Kodaka and Sena to end up on a prolonged romantic relationship, especially if the central plot premise evolves from this point out. Once a girl confesses, she'd either be rejected, or will win in a harem situation.
Spoiler for V8 Spoiler:
. If so, a genre and premise shift may well be on the cards.

It might still be possible to explore the remaining girls in the Friendzone. I'd say that Rika too has an enormous amount of development too. Really, the most undeveloped character right now is Yukimura. Going by the logic that the last girl who develops romantically win in a LN, then Yukimura might as well be the leading contender right now.

Mind you, there was a badly OOC Hagani Fanfic that did make Yukimura the end girl.
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Old 2012-09-04, 16:53   Link #1178
potchip
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Spoiler for Comparison to OreImo novels, no specifics:


Neither Yukimura nor Rika at this stage has enough 'pull' amongst characters other than Kodaka to be the end girls.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-09-04 at 17:20. Reason: added tags for the comparison
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Old 2012-09-04, 17:24   Link #1179
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Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Nothing prevents a genre shift either.
Your logic seems to come from the "anything is possible!" school of thinking. Experience, particularly in this genre, teaches me that this is extremely unlikely. You also kind of avoided answering my questions; instead your answer is essentially, "well, the story was about one thing, but now it'll be about something else because Genre Shift!". What you go on to say about Yukimura support this; how does that do anything to further the plot premise and bring resolution to the story? There's no clear logical trail there that I can follow.

I think this isn't like a shounen action story that shifts genres to increase readership. This is a story where you have a factions of cheering fans wanting to see who the romantic lead will choose. The final heroine is confirmed at the end of the story because fans who were cheering for someone else may become embittered or lose interest if they don't like the decision. This is the central premise of the shounen romantic comedy: prolong the romantic uncertainty for as long as possible.

This is further compounded by the fact that this isn't only a romantic comedy, but a story that revolves around a club of social misfits and their efforts to make friends. While romantic entanglings and complications are central to the story, choosing a romantic partner changes the story completely, and threatens to remove the very thing that people may enjoy about the novels. So I think it is extremely unlikely that the author would shift the story such that it focuses on one specific romantic couple, except temporarily if that will cause a conflict that will lead to the final resolution of the plot (the plot twist).


Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
It will be Perfectly logical (outside of the Harem genre) for Kodaka and Sena to end up on a prolonged romantic relationship, especially if the central plot premise evolves from this point out. Once a girl confesses, she'd either be rejected, or will win in a harem situation.
I think we can't take the story of out the expectations of the genre. In this sort of story, once a girl confesses and if there is still a significant remaining question about the protagonist's true feelings for another heroine, it is almost always a sign that the relationship is not going to last. I can provide a lot of in-genre examples of this sort of thing:

Spoiler for Relevant genre examples (names only, includes anime, manga, and novels):
Again, this isn't a pattern simply out of some sort of "harem genre principle", but because a story always seeks to resolve its central premise so that the end ties back to the beginning with some sort of logical coherence.

So anyway... because I know how this sort of debate thinking goes, I want to emphasize again that I am not saying this because I'm anti-Sena or pro anyone else. In honest truth, Sena is my favourite heroine in this story, and I think she and Kodaka would be a great couple... but I do not think the time is right from a storytelling perspective. Not yet, anyway.
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Old 2012-09-04, 22:31   Link #1180
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-09-06 at 00:43.
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