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Old 2012-09-04, 20:36   Link #101
wellis
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In an early post by Wild Goose he talked about how the BETA could be defeated by orbital bombardment citing Stargate SG-1 and Mass Effect as 2 examples. It got me thinking: what if when the American probe first landed on Mars it discovered the Prothean base prior to encountering the BETA on Mars? And what if somehow Earth was able to gain access to the Prothean database and large amounts of element zero from the starships there? How would that affect TSF development and war with the BETA?

And what if the Council had been formed in response to the BETA? They're clearly a galactic threat and humans can't have been the only ones to fight against them.

Last edited by wellis; 2012-09-05 at 00:43.
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Old 2012-09-05, 04:01   Link #102
DoomRavager
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
So, anyway. What makes a 00 Unit candidate be a 00 Unit candidate?
Nothing that would make it possible for Izumi to become part of A-01 at that point with all the other barriers to entry, that's for certain. As I'm aware /m/ has already explained to you repeatedly, despite your apparent incapability to understand the points that they're making and hence perpetuating the same fallacies. Maybe if you took the time to read more closely you'd understand why neither Marimo nor Takeru is the "exception proof" you're looking for and why the nonexistence of Yokohama Base in 1998 matters not one whit.
https://archive.foolz.us/m/thread/8183980/#q8185352_1

No offense, as I said earlier you're perfectly free to imagine the most contrived exceptional circumstances possible if it'll get you the scenario you want. That's kind of one of the things fanfiction's for. Just please refrain from trying to claim that there's things in canon to seriously back up that possibility if there is not actually anything to really support it.

Last edited by DoomRavager; 2012-09-05 at 05:15.
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Old 2012-09-05, 08:00   Link #103
MrTerrorist
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I don't find anything wrong about the A Cadet's Account fanfic even if it's not close to canon as you say DoomRavager.

If you want a MuvLuv fanfic that makes you go "WTH! You can't do that. No. No! NO!", then read Muv Luv Alternative Chronicles. Trust me, reading this fic will make A Cadet's Account look better.
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Old 2012-09-05, 08:11   Link #104
DoomRavager
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Oh, don't take things the wrong way, I never actually said anything about how good or bad I thought A Cadet's Account was in and of itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist
If you want a MuvLuv fanfic that makes you go "WTH! You can't do that. No. No! NO!", then read Muv Luv Alternative Chronicles. Trust me, reading this fic will make A Cadet's Account look better.
But that fic is such an amusing read!

Last edited by DoomRavager; 2012-09-05 at 08:21.
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Old 2012-09-05, 10:02   Link #105
Wild Goose
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I think it should be fairly obvious that Hagoshod's specialty is in trollfics. *shrugs*

Anyhow, because this is somewhat relevant to Wellis' fanfiction ideas, and because I have a vague hope of TK arriving here, I'm going to answer his post questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wellis View Post
In an early post by Wild Goose he talked about how the BETA could be defeated by orbital bombardment citing Stargate SG-1 and Mass Effect as 2 examples.
Really, it's not just SG-1 and ME; any verse with space warships that possess weapons that can range to earth can conduct orbital bombardment. Of course, using MIRV-deployed nukes like existing ICBMs is doomed to failure due to Hive Heavy Laser spam - I've seen speculation that BETA home in on anything that uses silicon (and assigns higher target priority), which is why they're so hax against missiles and nukes - which does mean that Horizon isn't happening anytime soon.

As I've said before, you don't really need beam weapons - firing kinetic energy weapons will do the trick. You're dropping a heavy slug at high speed onto the enemy, which will give you equivalent energy release to a nuclear weapon with no radioactive fallout.

Also, inb4 Yamato (2199 refit). The Wave Motion Gun took out a floating continent the size of Australia, afterall.

Firing from orbit is the ultimate Fuck You to BETA hives, because you have the benefit of standoff range, firepower, and nothing the BETA have can touch you. The problem is that ML hasn't gotten there yet. The other worry is also that even with railguns and dropping rods from god, you still need to maintain a sufficient volume of fire to saturate BETA defenses - as I recall, artillery is only called in once Lasers are removed because laserspam hax can interdict so much of an artillery battalion's fires that they'll be rendered winchester without any tangible effect, which is why you have units like 666th running Wild Weasel missiles to kill Lasers.

Quote:
It got me thinking: what if when the American probe first landed on Mars it discovered the Prothean base prior to encountering the BETA on Mars?
Before I get into the nitty gritty, I would be quite interested as to how the Americans managed to get so far - as I recall, the fledgling space colony was on Luna only, and was quickly overrun in short order. Also, by the time Luna was devoured, BETA had already completely overrun Mars. The prothean cache and eezo there are long since NOM.

Quote:
And what if somehow Earth was able to gain access to the Prothean database and large amounts of element zero from the starships there? How would that affect TSF development and war with the BETA?
Personal experience speaking here - when your premise includes the word somehow, you really need to take a step back and give it more thought. Kinda learned this the hard way.

If ME tech were available, we're going to see more rifles using mass accelerator cannons instead of conventional shells - at least for the 36mm Assault Cannons. We'll be seeing smaller caliber "rounds" - really blocks of metal sheared off from an ammo block - that would, I hope, have similar performance to standard guns, but with larger ammo capacities. However, heat buildup will be an issue - TSF guns doctrine relies on putting down an impressive rate of fire, and there may not be time to allow the cooldown that ME weapons require - especially as thermal clips haven't been invented, and are still a pain in the ass.

If humans can't mine eezo, though, there's no point in using ME tech.

Kinetic Barriers would not really be that useful, I think - I doubt they'd work very well against a Grappler or Destroyer charge, and they're useless against lasers, which is why point defenses on ME ships use lasers.

Quote:
And what if the Council had been formed in response to the BETA? They're clearly a galactic threat and humans can't have been the only ones to fight against them.
Curious premise. My guess is that the turian military is the front line, and uses orbital strikes as the first step to cleansing a planet of BETA. However, given how the Council is, I doubt they'd be helping Earth much.
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Old 2012-09-05, 18:30   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
Nothing that would make it possible for Izumi to become part of A-01 at that point with all the other barriers to entry, that's for certain.
The only two major barriers that /m/ thread kept going on about were
1. Izumi needs to a new A-01 trainee with no previous affiliation to graduate into the Valkyries
2. Izumi needs to have 00 Unit potential before she can become a A-01 trainee.

Seeing as how Izumi was a random cadet who never officially graduated the Royal Guard academy, I don't see why she can't just be recruited as one of Yuuko's new trainees in late 1998.

Since nobody will explain to me what actually gives a character 00 Unit potential no matter how many times I ask, I'm pretty much forced to improvise on that part. I wonder how you'll feel about chapter 1.5 when it's done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I think it should be fairly obvious that Hagoshod's specialty is in trollfics. *shrugs*
But A Cadet's Account isn't a trollfic. It's legit. Or at least it's trying to be.

Last edited by Hagoshod; 2012-09-05 at 18:51.
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Old 2012-09-05, 21:35   Link #107
DoomRavager
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Seeing as how Izumi was a random cadet who never officially graduated the Royal Guard academy, I don't see why she can't just be recruited as one of Yuuko's new trainees in late 1998.
But inexperienced or not, they have graduated, seeing as they're flying the Zuikakus that Yui said "once we graduate, that's what we'll be piloting" backed up also by Yui's uncle "In the Imperial Royal Guard Training Academy our training unit is the Gekishin. Once you graduate you’ll be piloting the Zuikaku." As well as shown wearing actual IRG suits instead of the cadet outfits. Judging by comments on their lack of experience, I'm guessing that either their graduation was rushed with the imminent invasion, or that's a reference to the simple fact that training really does not end upon graduation and new graduates really generally don't have any battlefield experience to speak of, as well as how the dedicated anti-BETA part of the training curriculum is all shoved in right at the end which would mean they haven't had as much time for that bit to sink in. I quote also the wiki "only soldiers and Eishi that have been officially commisioned are allowed to see the true forms of the BETA which are classified at the highest level to anyone else", and they're certainly already familiar with how BETA look and how Destroyers are meant to be fought.

Regardless, even if they somehow had not already graduated, how exactly is someone who has already enlisted in the IRG officer's school and gotten far enough in the program to already be taught about different BETA types and appropriate tactics for each class (which as was said is all shoved in the very last bit of the curriculum) equated to "a raw recruit with no previous affiliation who can enlist in pilot school and be trained as a new cadet from scratch"? Leaving aside the whole "they're using the machines and wearing the uniforms that are issued upon graduation, strongly suggesting that they have graduated" thing.

By the way, you know they don't search through other military organizations testing all their pilots for potential to look for recruits, right?

Either way, in the world of fanfiction, anything's possible, far be it from me to tell you to allow consistency with the source to hinder you.
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Old 2012-09-05, 22:18   Link #108
Wild Goose
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So essentially, what Doom Ravager is saying is that Izumi can't be a part of A-01 because she's already graduated from the Imperial Royal Guards' training program (truncated as it may be), and A-01 takes in fresh recruits, who are selected by Yuuko using some sort of criteria that she knows.

Also, if I understand /m/ correctly, Marimo was seconded to A-01 to serve as a trainer, seeing as how she'd spent a good deal of time with the Fuji School Brigade (YAMATO DAMASHII OPFOR), but she was not part of A-01's combat forces.

Also, the Imperial Royal Guard is technically a separate service from the IJA or IJN; what Hagoshod is postulating seems akin to someone who's completed Ranger or Green Beret training transferring into a SEAL team - it doesn't really work like that. Or a Navy helo pilot transferring into an Army chopper unit.

As for Yui's unit, it looks as though training has been truncated, and they've lumped all the nuggets together into a squadron to be lead by a senior pilot, instead of carefully parceling them out to squadrons with experienced pilots - probably because they need the Kyoto defenders at their best, and having the defenders defend Kyoto and babysit nuggets would be a nightmare. This actually did happen with German and Japanese pilots towards the end of WW2, sending squadrons full of quickly commissioned nuggets up against experienced American pilots. So yeah, it does look alot like Izumi's already commissioned.
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Old 2012-09-05, 22:43   Link #109
DoomRavager
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Also, the Imperial Royal Guard is technically a separate service from the IJA or IJN; what Hagoshod is postulating seems akin to someone who's completed Ranger or Green Beret training transferring into a SEAL team - it doesn't really work like that. Or a Navy helo pilot transferring into an Army chopper unit.
And before he says anything about Yui being an IRG officer flying over to Project PROMINENCE, it's absolutely not the same thing. There's a world of difference between an IRG officer working in weapons R&D being sent over by the Japanese side to oversee TSF development with the US as the Japanese representative under the blanket of a UN R&D program (in which case she's still under the IRG, being sent by them as a representative), and the idea of transferring as a squad member into a selective dedicated UN military unit used solely for Alternative IV-related ops which can be deployed above the law where the normal dedicated UN military is not allowed to intervene, essentially having its own agenda and command structure independent of the rest of the UN, which as already explained doesn't just simply take transfers from outsiders like that.

It is fanfiction, though. He can do whatever crazy things he likes and there's not problem with that.

Last edited by DoomRavager; 2012-09-06 at 00:02.
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Old 2012-09-05, 23:32   Link #110
Micropod
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^The problem comes in when he insists that it's a totally and very plausible scenario given what we already know about canon.

Why can we not just agree that it does not really matter what Haghoshod has deluded himself into thinking is and is not possible since pretty much everyone else except him already realizes just how incredibly far-fetched the whole thing is? I mean, that he's trying to write fanfiction about Alternative's final mission and A-01 when his idea of how the final mission went is full of inaccuracies and he doesn't even know what the trait that qualifies people to be the 00 Unit is is already pretty funny, I don't think we can expect too much from him consistency-wise. Just sit back and enjoy the fumbling is what I say.

Last edited by Micropod; 2012-09-06 at 00:06.
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Old 2012-09-06, 04:53   Link #111
Sheba
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Spoiler for A-01:
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Old 2012-09-06, 05:56   Link #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
they have graduated
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
she's already graduated from the Imperial Royal Guards' training program
But you're completely wrong.

Spoiler:
They were still students who were only shoved on the battlelines in a desperation move. It would be the same thing as saying Takeru and the gang would have been instant graduates in Unlimited if the invasion from the Sadogashima hive had actually gotten as far as breaking through the frontlines and the training team had to be deployed out of desperation (and somehow managed to survive the subsequent Kyoto-like conditions despite being severely undertrained).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
Regardless, even if they somehow had not already graduated, how exactly is someone who has already enlisted in the IRG officer's school
She wouldn't have to worry about already being enlisted in the IRG officer's school if Yuuhi personally discharged her.



I'm going to love seeing how badly you guys try to nitpick Chapter 1.5
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Old 2012-09-06, 07:15   Link #113
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
But you're completely wrong.

Spoiler:
Learn to read - I'm summing up what DoomRavager was saying.

That said, note that A-01 pulls in fresh recruits, and has no cross service transfers - Marimo is seconded to them in a support capacity. The very fact that Izumi has gone through IRG training would suggest, to me at the least, that she'd be disqualified from A-01; Yuuko seems to want fresh recruits with no preconceptions or mindsets from another service, presumably so they can be molded to fit A-01. Given that she's already been filled with IRG doctrine... Yeah.
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Old 2012-09-06, 07:54   Link #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
But you're completely wrong.
You know 207B's cadets were using their assigned training machines and wearing their trainee outfits when they did end up getting quickly shoved onto the battlefield in an unexpected emergency before they graduated in Alternative, not issued non-training TSFs meant for live combat, unlike Yui's squad who have now been issued the proper Imperial Royal Guard machines and suits which are issued to actual graduated officers?

You know 207B's cadets later got to graduate despite still being trainees who haven't even completed their training, and were subsequently not using training units and trainee outfits, serving as an example that under extraordinary circumstances (though the circumstances are different for 207B and for Yui's squad) you can be a graduate without having completed your training?

You know how it was pointed out that Yui's squad are no longer using the training TSFs and outfits and now have their color-coded non-trainee machines and outfits issued already by the time the BETA showed up all of a sudden, which indicates that they have in fact been commissioned? If they were still complete cadets without a commission, they'd be sitting in their training Gekishins wearing their cadet suits. Yui's squad's and 207B's situations are not comparable.

Did you read any of what was written? At all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager
Judging by comments on their lack of experience, I'm guessing that either their graduation was rushed with the imminent invasion, or that's a reference to the simple fact that training really does not end upon graduation and new graduates really generally don't have any battlefield experience to speak of, as well as how the dedicated anti-BETA part of the training curriculum is all shoved in right at the end which would mean they haven't had as much time for that bit to sink in. I quote also the wiki "only soldiers and Eishi that have been officially commisioned are allowed to see the true forms of the BETA which are classified at the highest level to anyone else", and they're certainly already familiar with how BETA look and how Destroyers are meant to be fought.
Along with
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose
As for Yui's unit, it looks as though training has been truncated, and they've lumped all the nuggets together into a squadron to be lead by a senior pilot, instead of carefully parceling them out to squadrons with experienced pilots - probably because they need the Kyoto defenders at their best, and having the defenders defend Kyoto and babysit nuggets would be a nightmare. This actually did happen with German and Japanese pilots towards the end of WW2, sending squadrons full of quickly commissioned nuggets up against experienced American pilots. So yeah, it does look alot like Izumi's already commissioned.
Already addresses the issue with the comments on their lack of experience and/or full training, which you have not provided any direct rebuttal to, besides a couple of screenshots saying "WELL YOUR TRAINING AIN'T COMPLETE", which has itself was being demonstrated as not a yardstick by which graduation status can be reliably measured under pressuring circumstances. You also failed to address the question of the fact that they were not using cadet equipment and reinforced suits unlike the actually hastily scrambled 207B, they were using the machines and suits that were specifically mentioned as being the ones that get issued to graduated pilots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod
She wouldn't have to worry about already being enlisted in the IRG officer's school if Yuuhi personally discharged her.
Where did you get the idea that this is about mere formalities and technicalities on paper about who's on what list of cadets?

Anyway, she's graduated.

Why am I even arguing about this when I just wanted to sit back and chuckle along with everyone else at the fact that you have effectively no clue what you're talking about?

Last edited by Micropod; 2012-09-06 at 21:45.
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Old 2012-09-06, 08:30   Link #115
DoomRavager
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micropod View Post
You know 207B's cadets were using their assigned training machines and wearing their trainee outfits when they did end up getting quickly shoved onto the battlefield in an unexpected emergency before they graduated in Alternative, not issued non-training TSFs meant for live combat, unlike Yui's squad who have now been issued the proper Imperial Royal Guard machines and suits which are issued to actual graduated officers?

You know 207B's cadets later got to graduate despite still being trainees who haven't even completed their training, and were subsequently not using training units and trainee outfits, serving as an example that under extraordinary circumstances (though the circumstances are different for 207B and for Yui's squad) you can be a graduate without having completed your training?
Of course not, he couldn't be bothered to read the main work of the franchise he's trying to write fanfiction about and consequently only knows isolated details with huge gaps about what happened in Alternative, based on hearsay.

And it's possible he thinks everyone's just out to get him because of that, as opposed to having genuine grievances the existence of which he is effectively the absolutely only one incapable of realizing.

Makes for a good laugh either way.

Last edited by DoomRavager; 2012-09-06 at 11:57.
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Old 2012-09-06, 08:36   Link #116
Sheba
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It's equivalent of trying to write a fanfic of a movie where your only experience are summaries on wikipedia.
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Old 2012-09-06, 08:57   Link #117
Wild Goose
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Tl;dr, Yuuko wants fresh raw nuggets for A-01, so she can season them to her own recipe, and Izumi has already been cooked and left on the warming rack for 8 minutes.
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Old 2012-09-06, 10:58   Link #118
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What would a TSF made with ME tech be like ? Won't it have greater speed because of the ME core ? And endurance if it's equipped with a fusion reactor ?
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Old 2012-09-06, 12:06   Link #119
Wild Goose
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It'd be practically no better than current TSFs. It won't be able to go fast enough to evade Laser-class, and there is currently no known way (IIRC) to spoof them. Current speeds are actually fast enough, and operating time isn't really an issue - IIRC you tend to get NOMed before actually running out of fuel.

If there's some way of defeating - or at least defending - Lasers, then you've got someting viable. This is why I was saying that for the battlefield, post-2040 Valkyries would be more survivable, thanks to the pinpoint barrier system; sure, it won't tank a full on laserhax spam, but it will last more than long enough for you to stay alive.
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Old 2012-09-06, 12:32   Link #120
Sheba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Tl;dr, Yuuko wants fresh raw nuggets for A-01, so she can season them to her own recipe, and Izumi has already been cooked and left on the warming rack for 8 minutes.
She survived the eight minutes, then became Soldier classs-kun' all-you-can-eat taco buffet. That's why noobs should never let their guard down after those. Because Soldiers are everywhere. Even under your bed.

Last edited by Sheba; 2012-09-06 at 12:42.
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