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Old 2012-09-03, 17:50   Link #81
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
On a forum, stating an opinion is as allowed as questioning an opinion though :/
You're simply being called out on your reasoning, and you aren't backing it up. The manga shows Sasuke awakening his sharingan at an ealier age, plain and simple. Saying it "doesn't count" is simply denying the facts, apparently because of a personal bias. I don't see why the gap between uses is relevant. If he awakened it to try and counter a genjitsu against Itachi, why would he not be able to use it again if he wished during the interval of him not being in any battles? Of course, there is no reason why :/
I suppose. I can't really say any of what you say here is incorrect. Except the bias part. At least I don't feel particularly biased towards Itachi if that's what you say. It just doesn't really click with me. The fact that I hardly even remember the incident doesn't really help much either. Although you shouldn't interpret it as me putting Sasuke into any kind of negative light. It just feels like Sasuke worked hard/borrowed power/had traumatic experiences to get where he is whereas with Itachi just seemed to have everything going his way naturally. If any bias is involved that I was unaware of, shouldn't that mean I'm biased towards Sasuke rather than Itachi?
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Old 2012-09-03, 19:03   Link #82
james0246
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I think the instruction Sasuke received from Kakashi was nearly as good as instruction from an Uchiha. True, we don't see Kakashi directly training him to use Sharingan, but Sasuke did sharply hone his (copied) taijutsu under his guidance. Plus Kakashi shares the lightning affinity and knows powerful Raiton like Chidori, so he was especially suited to training Sasuke.
Sasuke was alone from the ages of 7 to 12. During those same years Itachi had an entire clan (including a father and mother who were Jounins as well as whatever Shisui was), a teacher, and multiple teams all helping him to become stronger (he also had Madara/Tobi). Despite all of this, Sasuke still managed to be at the level of Chuunin by the start of the series. Kakashi was a great teacher (for Sasuke) and was able to allay much of Sasuke's deficiencies (how someone as dedicated as Sasuke didn't know tree walking is still something I find very unbelievable), but that doesn't dismiss the fact that Sasuke was alone during many years in which his abilities could have been greatly expanded.

Note, I am not saying that Itachi's strength solely came from the help he received (Itachi is a genius after all). But, Itachi had obvious resources that Sasuke did not.
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Old 2012-09-03, 20:06   Link #83
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Sasuke was alone from the ages of 7 to 12. During those same years Itachi had an entire clan (including a father and mother who were Jounins as well as whatever Shisui was), a teacher, and multiple teams all helping him to become stronger (he also had Madara/Tobi). Despite all of this, Sasuke still managed to be at the level of Chuunin by the start of the series. Kakashi was a great teacher (for Sasuke) and was able to allay much of Sasuke's deficiencies (how someone as dedicated as Sasuke didn't know tree walking is still something I find very unbelievable), but that doesn't dismiss the fact that Sasuke was alone during many years in which his abilities could have been greatly expanded.

Note, I am not saying that Itachi's strength solely came from the help he received (Itachi is a genius after all). But, Itachi had obvious resources that Sasuke did not.
Well, Sasuke attended the academy which is the only instruction Itachi is ever mentioned receiving at the same age (though he was so talented he graduated in a year). We don't know the involvement the clan had with his training. Fugaku instructed Sasuke in Katon (which Kakashi implies isn't taught in the academy), so likely he did teach Itachi clan techniques as well and would've further trained Sasuke. Shisui probably instructed Itachi too as they were like brothers. Mikoto...she was said to be a jounin but I doubt she really had a hand in Itachi's ninja training. When she saw Sasuke was eager to improve but was being neglected by Itachi she offered encouragement, but never offered to train him herself. I wouldn't assume she taught Itachi if she didn't teach Sasuke. And Itachi didn't seek Madara until he was already an ANBU captain at which point he was already much stronger than Sasuke was at the start of the series.

But Uchiha teachers or not, the special training Sasuke could've received would've been limited until he awakened his Sharingan, and that didn't happen until he was 12 (though it briefly appeared at 7 due to Itachi). Being naturally gifted allowed Itachi to fully awaken his at 8 so he could begin honing its skills at a much earlier age.
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Old 2012-09-04, 08:22   Link #84
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That's... Not even making sense.
My point exactly.
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Oh well, I guess stating your opinion isn't allowed on a forum or something.
... Ok it's not worth it, have a nice day.
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Old 2012-09-04, 09:38   Link #85
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My point exactly.
... Feel free to correct me if I interpret you wrong, but you make it sound like you can't make a point and are just spouting gibberish.
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Old 2012-09-04, 16:23   Link #86
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That's... Not even making sense. How is killing someone the same as using an ability?
he's boiling your point down to "the fact that someone 'did' something 5 years ago should be disregarded if they haven't 'done' it since". if you want an example with a physical ability, then lets say that i did a backflip 5 years ago, but never again until yesterday. when was the first time i did a backflip then? ...5 years ago

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Well, he was an absolutely great ninja with an uber scientist brain to boot. He just didn't have the benefit of hax eyes.
well not hax eyes, but orochimaru has hax body of the white snake. every super powerful ninja has some sort of 'hax' ability. ~which is a term i don't like btw since we are talking about characters who are all magical in some way
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Old 2012-09-04, 17:00   Link #87
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
he's boiling your point down to "the fact that someone 'did' something 5 years ago should be disregarded if they haven't 'done' it since". if you want an example with a physical ability, then lets say that i did a backflip 5 years ago, but never again until yesterday. when was the first time i did a backflip then? ...5 years ago
That.... Actually makes sense. I didn't look at it that way.

I still don't feel like Sasuke is more of a "genius" than Itachi though. I acknowledge his talent but he also had to spend a lot of effort to catch up.

I am not sure how this makes me a Sasuke hater since, if there is any bias I wasn't previously aware of, it's obviously directed towards Sasuke.
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Old 2012-09-04, 19:52   Link #88
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I still don't feel like Sasuke is more of a "genius" than Itachi though. I acknowledge his talent but he also had to spend a lot of effort to catch up.
I dont think anyone here was every trying to say that sasuke was more of a genius than itachi. just that sasuke is a genius
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Old 2012-09-05, 04:03   Link #89
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Well, all that power he has now didn't merely come to him just because he has a good set of genes. He had to work for it.
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Old 2012-09-05, 11:26   Link #90
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Well, all that power he has now didn't merely come to him just because he has a good set of genes. He had to work for it.
every genius ninja trained and studied hard including itachi. orochimaru was blown away by just how dangerous itachi's training was when he was spying on him. this line of thought actually makes obito being a genius make sense, because back during and before kakashi gaiden he never put in the effort that these geniuses we're talking about did. his lack of progress reflects his lack of effort. i'm only guessing right now, but i'm assuming that after his supposed death, obito starting taking training seriously and that is why he was able to capitalize on his potential.
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Old 2012-09-05, 11:43   Link #91
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Maybe it's just easy for me to assume that Itachi was an instant expert at everything because they never really bothered to show him working for it.
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Old 2012-09-06, 00:46   Link #92
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
every genius ninja trained and studied hard including itachi.
Except for Shikamaru. Who was Kishi's poster child for getting by on natural talent given he mostly avoided all training and had zero ambition.

Given his immeasurable intelligence, a motivated and ambitious Shikamaru could have theoretically become a chuunin and then jonin/ANBU captain at an even younger age than Kakashi and Itachi.
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Old 2012-09-06, 01:08   Link #93
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Except for Shikamaru. Who was Kishi's poster child for getting by on natural talent given he mostly avoided all training and had zero ambition.
Given his immeasurable intelligence, a motivated and ambitious Shikamaru could have theoretically become a chuunin and then jonin/ANBU captain at an even younger age than Kakashi and Itachi.
that's true but he isn't the same type of genius as the others. kakashi included since kakashi can hold his own and learn new techniques fast and regularly. shikamaru is almost useless in a 1 on 1 fight. he needs to rely on the strength of others in order for his mental genius to flourish. he is a genius no doubt, but he's not a physical/ability genius like the other genius ninja are.

i dont think shikamaru really got by with zero ambition. he would have died on several accounts if not for being saved when he exhausted his mind and single advanced technique. i also dont think mental genius is as direct a correlation to learning abilities as you say. shikamaru's intelligence doesnt gaurantee that he could have beaten kakashi and itachi in rank. as a tactician and advisor, sure, but not as a ninja.

shikamaru is a mental genius, but arguably not a genius ninja. he's basically a one trick pony. no other geniuses we've discussed are nearly that limited in performance.
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Old 2012-09-06, 04:29   Link #94
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Maybe a more fitting translation would have been prodigy instead of genius.
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Old 2012-09-06, 04:40   Link #95
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The word "genius" literally just implies a genetical advantage of any sort. It doesn't have to be intellectual.
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Old 2012-09-06, 05:29   Link #96
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So, is Sasuke´s awakening of Sharingan at age 7/8 somehow a sign of his genius ?
I thought that if you use similar level of mental stress (very high) at every able Uchiha at that age (because not every Uchiha can awaken Sharingan), you could expect at least some positive results, not only from "prodigies".
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Old 2012-09-06, 21:58   Link #97
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
that's true but he isn't the same type of genius as the others. kakashi included since kakashi can hold his own and learn new techniques fast and regularly. shikamaru is almost useless in a 1 on 1 fight. he needs to rely on the strength of others in order for his mental genius to flourish. he is a genius no doubt, but he's not a physical/ability genius like the other genius ninja are.

i dont think shikamaru really got by with zero ambition. he would have died on several accounts if not for being saved when he exhausted his mind and single advanced technique. i also dont think mental genius is as direct a correlation to learning abilities as you say. shikamaru's intelligence doesnt gaurantee that he could have beaten kakashi and itachi in rank. as a tactician and advisor, sure, but not as a ninja.

shikamaru is a mental genius, but arguably not a genius ninja. he's basically a one trick pony. no other geniuses we've discussed are nearly that limited in performance.
Shikamaru is a genius ninja by whatever criteria Kishimoto uses. I am not saying I even agree with it, but it is the creator's call.

To quote Kishimomto
Quote:
Masashi Kishimoto has noted that he likes Shikamaru due to his easygoing nature despite being a genius, and contrasted him against another genius Sasuke Uchiha's abrasive personality.
So Kishi considers him a genius and whatever than entails in this manga. Perhaps because he also hit the genetic lottery with that brain. Having an over 200 IQ should be rarer than an EMS.

There is no mental genius vs. physical genius. Nor does a genius mean having to be great at everything. Otherwise characters like Sasuke and Neji would clearly fail in that regard. Shikamaru is a genius whose talent is his intelligence and leadership skills. These talents are so extraordinary that they allow him to compete with and defeat characters that are perhaps more physically gifted than him. And he were useless in a one-on-one fight like you said, he would have died when he faced Kin ages ago. Shikamaru is the classic slacker character who only fulfills his potential in times of need. As opposed to ambitious characters who get the most out of their talent. But he is a genius all the same. One held in check by his own lack of ambition.
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Old 2012-09-07, 00:03   Link #98
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Originally Posted by MyrzaelHanzo View Post
So, is Sasuke´s awakening of Sharingan at age 7/8 somehow a sign of his genius ?
No, learning elemental ninjutsu at 7 is what makes Sasuke a genius.
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Old 2012-09-07, 00:47   Link #99
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Shikamaru is a genius ninja by whatever criteria Kishimoto uses. I am not saying I even agree with it, but it is the creator's call.

To quote Kishimomto


So Kishi considers him a genius and whatever than entails in this manga. Perhaps because he also hit the genetic lottery with that brain. Having an over 200 IQ should be rarer than an EMS.
that's basically what i said. i agree that shikamaru is a mental genius, he's just not a genius ninja (meaning someone who can advance multiple S rank techniques to maximum potential or something to that effect). some characters are both kinds of genius like sasuke and kakashi. some are borderline dumb and just genius ninjas like naruto

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There is no mental genius vs. physical genius. Nor does a genius mean having to be great at everything.
there are clearly different types of geniuses at play in naruto from my interpretation of things. case in point, kakashi calling rock lee a potential genius

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And he were useless in a one-on-one fight like you said, he would have died when he faced Kin ages ago.
well i said 'almost' useless. you need to also reference asuma saving him from the sound ninja, temari saving him from Tayuya, and Aoba's team saving him from kakuzu and hidan. being able to deduce a battle's minute details is great, but not if the enemy still wins

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Shikamaru is the classic slacker character who only fulfills his potential in times of need. As opposed to ambitious characters who get the most out of their talent. But he is a genius all the same. One held in check by his own lack of ambition.
again you assume he's not getting ultra powerful (perhaps an exaggeration there) due to lack of training and ambition. i say his body isn't capable of getting to high caliber genius ninja level. he's only capable of getting smarter and he's already the smartest character in the manga. he can improve shadow sewing of course, but that's not on par with what the other ninja geniuses we mentioned can do
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Old 2012-09-07, 08:23   Link #100
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No, learning elemental ninjutsu at 7 is what makes Sasuke a genius.
5 years old actually but I disagree that awakening the Sharingan so young isn't part of what show how much of a prodigy Sasuke is.
The term tensai or genius/prodigy doesn't refer only to intelect but to people with exeptional innate abilities. For example as itachi-san314 noted Rock Lee is a prodigy in one narrow thing : opening the Gates. His gruesome training alone isn't enough to explain is ability to open up to 5 Gates when he was 14 years old, it's the one thing he's naturally exceptionally good at.
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