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Old 2012-09-06, 07:18   Link #141
Vladrave
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^I agree.
It's like saying that forget the narrative story telling and the substance, it's all about style.
That being said, the idea of time traveling is pretty much unlikely. Kishimoto is not that stupid to do this.
But if time travelling is actually the answer, then i don't know what i would say anymore.

Edit: Yes, i do at least find naruto's story good even though it's ridiculous in some ways.
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Old 2012-09-06, 07:49   Link #142
Discerptor
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Originally Posted by bigdeal000 View Post
If that is true, then obito is a Nagato clone. Boring ideea, don't you think?
Actually, Nagato was indoctrinated by Obito/Madara, so it's the other way around in a strange sort of way. That's the whole point. There was even a scene after Nagato's death wherein Obito asked Naruto how he turned Nagato against him even though he agreed with the Moon's Eye Plan. The fact Nagato philosophically agreed with what Obito was doing should make it no surprise that the two of them would have similar ideas.
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Old 2012-09-06, 09:05   Link #143
Shay
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Let's face it. Kishi is making shit up Chapter by Chaper. He's probably as lost as us....
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Old 2012-09-06, 09:06   Link #144
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
Actually, Nagato was indoctrinated by Obito/Madara, so it's the other way around in a strange sort of way. That's the whole point. There was even a scene after Nagato's death wherein Obito asked Naruto how he turned Nagato against him even though he agreed with the Moon's Eye Plan. The fact Nagato philosophically agreed with what Obito was doing should make it no surprise that the two of them would have similar ideas.
Nagato was not indoctrinated, at least nothing we've seen so far leads to that conclusion. Madara definitely chose him at a young age (probably due to the fact that he was a Uzumaki in a war torn region of the world), but Nagato's actual development seems to have been entirely his own influenced by his environment and friends rather than any specific machinations from Madara of Tobi. The fact that both came to similar conclusions could simply have resulted from both experiencing similar traumas (or something along those lines).

(That being said, Obito seems to come from a long line of characters that come up with the worst solutions to their emotional problems).

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Let's face it. Kishi is making shit up Chapter by Chaper. He's probably as lost as us....
That's not quite true. Or, more specifically, I think Kishimoto planned Tobi=Obito all along, but he messed up the character along the way by choosing to constantly keep him a mystery. Truthfully, I think Kishimoto would have been better served to have 'solved' the mystery of Tobi a 100 chapters ago (sometime during the Pain Invasion or the Kage Summit), and let the subsequent chapters be used to slowly expand and define the character even potentially keeping Madara's involvement a mystery, but still letting the other characters and events react to the presence of Obito.

Instead, we are going to have a dozen or so chapters featuring the character, then nothing since he will be dead or effectively neutered.
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Old 2012-09-06, 09:08   Link #145
Hunter
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I think you're all very harsh on Obito. The poor guy suffered a terrible head trauma, it's no surprise he has brain damage.
Hell, think about this poor broken, demented man who can shift between dimensions. Perhaps he even got into ours, perhaps he started writing manga, perhaps the circle is now complete.
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Old 2012-09-06, 09:24   Link #146
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God please make this whole chapter a genjutsu.
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Old 2012-09-06, 09:42   Link #147
Tettsuo
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I'm still holding on to the idea that Tobi face is a reflexion of whoever the viewer wants to believe he is. If was really Obito, why would it all make sense to Kisame once he saw his face? Why would Itachi say he's a living illusion?

I'm not ready to believe this is Obito. Maybe it's Obito's eye, but I don't think this is actually him.
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Old 2012-09-06, 09:54   Link #148
Auron Requies
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Another reveal that, just like the 4th Hokage = Naruto Dad's fact, made me go "About bloody time". Even though both Dad/Minato theory and Tobi/Obito both had obvious hints here and there, I always saw these as "Lets see how it goes first". But both of these reveals took years, so dragging these out, rather then getting a "Alright! I knew it!" reaction, I instead got, as I mentioned, a "Well about bloody time" reaction. Anyways, with with the Obito reveal, here's my thoughts.

Like a lot of others picking up consistencies (such as Nagato being older then Obito), my real issue is Obito character inconsistencies. Why? Its because of the Uchiha's curse of hatred vs Senju's Will of Fire. It's believed that all Uchiha would be fated to forever fate the Senju due to the ancestors of both. However, I was very happy to know that 3 characters leaned more towards the Will of Fire, these being Itachi, Shisui and Obito.

Especially in Chapter 599 where we see the Obito flashbacks, though they were silent (no speech bubbles) you can tell from the body language that Obito was indeed proud of his clan, he also had aspiration's of being a Hokage, and he was also the go lucky heart of gold idiot of team minato, as naruto is to team kakashi. His sacrifice and his belief after being told about the White Fang 'shame' also clearly showed that he was definitely not the evil type. I really liked how these 3 Uchiha, did not succumb to this fate, and defied their family's history for the greater good also showing that these characters truly are good hearted characters.

Though of course, people change, this change is way too inconsistent imo. If Obito really did become who he is because of Rin, then I'm dissapointed. Maybe there would be more to explain his current other then just some girl, but it still seems like the starting point, and if thats the case, I'm getting dissapointed with Kishimoto.

I was always under the belief that if Tobi is Obito, he is Obito controlled but someone, body controlled, and I always theorized, and believed, that Obito as Tobi, is really Izuna,which just makes more sense to me.

However, after seeing Madara at then end calling him "Obito" I really hope the Izuna = Obito as Tobi is not thrown out the window, but its looking like it =/. More info is coming, but I swear I'm feeling less and less thrilled if Obito really did become this way.

I still don't buy Obito the way he is now due to other inconsistencies, which probably has been mentioned beforehand so I apologise.

- 'Tobi' claimed to have given Nagato his Rinnegan. But Nagato is older then Obito
- Page 5 of Chapter 399, we see Tobi clenching his hand while imposing as Madara, while telling Sasuke about how Izuna gave Madara his eyes. This definately made me thing Izuna.
- “Do you have ANY idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?” quote when he was extracting Nine Tails from Kushina.
- He knows way too much. What? Madara tutored him and gave him history lessons after getting everyone to believe he died but he hermit-ted his way through life only to die later?

No, this screams 'Something is off'. But again, lets wait and see (Who wants to bet it'll be 1 year before another reveal is made on this matter? =/)

PS: Btw on the current subject of this topic, I really hope this is a time travel jutsu or anything of that sort. Time travel in stories can get messy unless planned out properly.
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Old 2012-09-06, 11:03   Link #149
SuperRareTreeCat
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
That's not quite true. Or, more specifically, I think Kishimoto planned Tobi=Obito all along, but he messed up the character along the way by choosing to constantly keep him a mystery. Truthfully, I think Kishimoto would have been better served to have 'solved' the mystery of Tobi a 100 chapters ago (sometime during the Pain Invasion or the Kage Summit), and let the subsequent chapters be used to slowly expand and define the character even potentially keeping Madara's involvement a mystery, but still letting the other characters and events react to the presence of Obito.
I personally liked the idea of him being hidden for quite sometime, I mean I'm sure some people pooped themselves when Madara appeared next to the 2nd Tsuchikage also as a Edo Tensei.

Also could anyone refer me to where someone physically gave Nagato the rinnengan instead of them "claiming"? I mean they say its the next stage after Sharingan (according to Kabuto) but I always had thought Nagato had gained it himself out of rage. Wouldn't he remember someone implanting new eyes into him? Considering he didn't even know what it was himself? I think it's something to do with the Uzumaki clan considering in my opinion they're on par with the Uchiha and Senju, and they were all killed off. Could be that the war torn village Nagato lost his parents in was the village of the Uzumaki? Just a thoughts! post opinions of course
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Old 2012-09-06, 11:28   Link #150
james0246
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Originally Posted by SuperRareTreeCat View Post
I personally liked the idea of him being hidden for quite sometime, I mean I'm sure some people pooped themselves when Madara appeared next to the 2nd Tsuchikage also as a Edo Tensei.
Madara could have still been a surprise reveal (specifically, that Tobi and Madara were working together would be the surprise). But, even if not, I still feel that the burden of the mystery has negatively affected Tobi/Obito as a character. I would have even preferred some dramatic irony over the current mess.

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Originally Posted by SuperRareTreeCat View Post
Also could anyone refer me to where someone physically gave Nagato the rinnengan instead of them "claiming"? I mean they say its the next stage after Sharingan (according to Kabuto) but I always had thought Nagato had gained it himself out of rage.
Tobi claimed in 509 that Nagato was given the Rinnegan.
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Old 2012-09-06, 11:35   Link #151
prakash123
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Originally Posted by Auron Requies View Post
Another reveal that, just like the 4th Hokage = Naruto Dad's fact, made me go "About bloody time". Even though both Dad/Minato theory and Tobi/Obito both had obvious hints here and there, I always saw these as "Lets see how it goes first". But both of these reveals took years, so dragging these out, rather then getting a "Alright! I knew it!" reaction, I instead got, as I mentioned, a "Well about bloody time" reaction. Anyways, with with the Obito reveal, here's my thoughts.

Like a lot of others picking up consistencies (such as Nagato being older then Obito), my real issue is Obito character inconsistencies. Why? Its because of the Uchiha's curse of hatred vs Senju's Will of Fire. It's believed that all Uchiha would be fated to forever fate the Senju due to the ancestors of both. However, I was very happy to know that 3 characters leaned more towards the Will of Fire, these being Itachi, Shisui and Obito.

Especially in Chapter 599 where we see the Obito flashbacks, though they were silent (no speech bubbles) you can tell from the body language that Obito was indeed proud of his clan, he also had aspiration's of being a Hokage, and he was also the go lucky heart of gold idiot of team minato, as naruto is to team kakashi. His sacrifice and his belief after being told about the White Fang 'shame' also clearly showed that he was definitely not the evil type. I really liked how these 3 Uchiha, did not succumb to this fate, and defied their family's history for the greater good also showing that these characters truly are good hearted characters.

Though of course, people change, this change is way too inconsistent imo. If Obito really did become who he is because of Rin, then I'm dissapointed. Maybe there would be more to explain his current other then just some girl, but it still seems like the starting point, and if thats the case, I'm getting dissapointed with Kishimoto.

I was always under the belief that if Tobi is Obito, he is Obito controlled but someone, body controlled, and I always theorized, and believed, that Obito as Tobi, is really Izuna,which just makes more sense to me.

However, after seeing Madara at then end calling him "Obito" I really hope the Izuna = Obito as Tobi is not thrown out the window, but its looking like it =/. More info is coming, but I swear I'm feeling less and less thrilled if Obito really did become this way.

I still don't buy Obito the way he is now due to other inconsistencies, which probably has been mentioned beforehand so I apologise.

- 'Tobi' claimed to have given Nagato his Rinnegan. But Nagato is older then Obito
- Page 5 of Chapter 399, we see Tobi clenching his hand while imposing as Madara, while telling Sasuke about how Izuna gave Madara his eyes. This definately made me thing Izuna.
- Do you have ANY idea how long Ive waited for this moment? quote when he was extracting Nine Tails from Kushina.
- He knows way too much. What? Madara tutored him and gave him history lessons after getting everyone to believe he died but he hermit-ted his way through life only to die later?

No, this screams 'Something is off'. But again, lets wait and see (Who wants to bet it'll be 1 year before another reveal is made on this matter? =/)

PS: Btw on the current subject of this topic, I really hope this is a time travel jutsu or anything of that sort. Time travel in stories can get messy unless planned out properly.
well ive also had a feeling that it might be izuna(one theory is about the rinnegan,when he said he was taking back what was his,if u look at it madara took his bros eyes awakened the EMS and then awakened the rinnegan then supposedly gave it to nagato.so wouldnt it make sense if obito/tobi was izuna and said im taking back what was mine).plus i can also see tobi/obito being izuna as he was on par with the 4th hokage because as we know izuna and madara were very talented and powerful.kisame also recognised tobi as madara(izuna and madara kinda do look alike so it could have been a mere mistaken identity)and also in the latest chapt obito said his name held no meaning anymore and then on page 11 he said 'whether *I* survived or not is not important' emphasizing the I

also check out the naruto wiki.check out tobi and izuna.they seem to share some similarities which imo i dont think its a coincidence.ive speculated once before that obito might be a reincarnation of izuna.and currently right now 'obito' is seriously just mindfucking kakashi to really catch him offguard and madara popping in and mentioning 'obito' is just to play along.like i mentioned before obitos eye is quite special with kamui and all.and also guess what obito gave one of his eye to kakashi which makes kakashi kind of a threat at this point in the series because its only with kakashi's kamui that they can/might defeat obito.obito didnt even hesitate to attack kakashi the moment kakashi let his guard down.i know kishi has alot of explaining to do but i just cant accept the idea of obito going bad cause of rin's death.

guys im just playing along with the rest of the obito haters and those who thinks it might be izuna
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Old 2012-09-06, 11:53   Link #152
SuperRareTreeCat
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Tobi claimed in 509 that Nagato was given the Rinnegan.
I know that that had happened but Tobi is claiming Nagato was given Rinnengan, saying it in a way to manipulate Konan. Just like he claimed he was Uchiha Madara to manipulate the Kages and company. Seems like the only truth hes told anyone is that he wants to control reality. Do you not think that Nagato just gained it himself?
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Old 2012-09-06, 11:59   Link #153
prakash123
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Originally Posted by SuperRareTreeCat View Post
I know that that had happened but Tobi is claiming Nagato was given Rinnengan, saying it in a way to manipulate Konan. Just like he claimed he was Uchiha Madara to manipulate the Kages and company. Seems like the only truth hes told anyone is that he wants to control reality. Do you not think that Nagato just gained it himself?
but didnt edo madara say that he never expected to be revived by the edo tensei?he wanted nagato to revive him with the rinnegan.so he knew nagato thus he gave nagato the rinnegan for safe keeping.read chapter 559
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Old 2012-09-06, 12:00   Link #154
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Originally Posted by SuperRareTreeCat View Post
I know that that had happened but Tobi is claiming Nagato was given Rinnengan, saying it in a way to manipulate Konan. Just like he claimed he was Uchiha Madara to manipulate the Kages and company. Seems like the only truth hes told anyone is that he wants to control reality. Do you not think that Nagato just gained it himself?
No. Nagato wasn't uchiha so he couldn't have evolved it from a sharingan. also, tobi had no reason to lie to or manipulate konan. he was planning on killing her right after he forced her to reveal nagato's shrine's location with his sharingan. tobi did have a reason to lie to the kages to incite the war. saying he was obito, although clearly a powerful ninja, wouldn't have gotten everyone together as effectively or inspired as much fear in the allied countries.
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Old 2012-09-06, 12:30   Link #155
Neji112
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I think Tobi was playing the part of Madara when he claimed to give the Rinnegan to Nagato. It's probably a half truth, where the original Madara had something to do with Nagato's Rinnegan but not Tobi himself.

It's possible that Nagato was really just literally given Madara's eyes as well. It's also possible that Nagato is the son of Madara and a Uzumaki and the mixing of Uchiha and the senju blood created a Rinnegan or some long winded plan like that.
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Old 2012-09-06, 13:07   Link #156
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Let's face it. Kishi is making shit up Chapter by Chaper. He's probably as lost as us....
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
I think you're all very harsh on Obito. The poor guy suffered a terrible head trauma, it's no surprise he has brain damage.
Hell, think about this poor broken, demented man who can shift between dimensions. Perhaps he even got into ours, perhaps he started writing manga, perhaps the circle is now complete.
Yes! LOL this is brilliant and precisely what I believe. I'd give you two rewards if I had any for being on point and so damn funny.
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Old 2012-09-06, 13:17   Link #157
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No. Nagato wasn't uchiha so he couldn't have evolved it from a sharingan. also, tobi had no reason to lie to or manipulate konan. he was planning on killing her right after he forced her to reveal nagato's shrine's location with his sharingan. tobi did have a reason to lie to the kages to incite the war. saying he was obito, although clearly a powerful ninja, wouldn't have gotten everyone together as effectively or inspired as much fear in the allied countries.
If he had no reason to lie or manipulate Konan then why did he continue to call himself Uchiha Madara? Still doesn't make sense; I mean when did he have the eyes implanted and how come he wasn't aware of anything at the time when he awakened it?

Also read the wiki's for both Obito and Madara, says on Madara's nothing towards giving Nagato the Rinnengan. Obito's says he "claims" to have given him it but goes on to say "Obito is a master of manipulation, either by subtly corrupting his target's own goals, omitting parts of stories or events to his own benefit as he did with Sasuke, or by appearing to share their beliefs." Obito lied about a lot to manipulate everyone; even akatsuki were merely tools but had them thinking he was supporting their goals.
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Old 2012-09-06, 14:37   Link #158
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but didnt edo madara say that he never expected to be revived by the edo tensei?he wanted nagato to revive him with the rinnegan.so he knew nagato thus he gave nagato the rinnegan for safe keeping.read chapter 559
Did read it, he commented on nagato's grow thinking that he revived him. There wasn't any indication that he "gave" the eyes to him. My point being is that I don't want people to tell me were some have "claimed" to have done things I want to actually have proof. And someone's word whose lied about who he is and has manipulated an entire organization is hardly proof nor is someone's who been dead saying he knows that person. We've only heard the one side of the story as to how Nagato acquired the Rinnengan, he himself even said "As the pain turned to hatred, my powers bloomed within me" That tells me that the powers started within him.

Also if someone took out their eyes and gave them to someone else only later to die; why would they be revived with their eyes? Shouldn't he have come back without eyes?
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Old 2012-09-06, 14:46   Link #159
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Originally Posted by SuperRareTreeCat View Post
If he had no reason to lie or manipulate Konan then why did he continue to call himself Uchiha Madara?
I'm only going to address this issue because I am not as up-to-date on my Naruto for the other questions, but to me, it seems fairly simple why he would continue to pretend to be Uchiha Madara--again this is all speculation. The name "Uchiha Madara" has a lot of weight to it. If people already think you are Uchiha Madara (who was so powerful in the past and you can pull off his image fairly well) why then, would you try to convince them that you are someone else-- someone named "Obito." Obito's true identity wasn't widely known. Only a handful of Leaf ninja knew the significant of his name and the only one that would look into it--if a rouge ninja named Obito started causing trouble--would have been Kakashi. As long as he could continue the facade of being Uchiha Madara (or Tobi), his cover wouldn't be blown before the actual war.
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Old 2012-09-06, 15:57   Link #160
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I'm only going to address this issue because I am not as up-to-date on my Naruto for the other questions, but to me, it seems fairly simple why he would continue to pretend to be Uchiha Madara--again this is all speculation. The name "Uchiha Madara" has a lot of weight to it. If people already think you are Uchiha Madara (who was so powerful in the past and you can pull off his image fairly well) why then, would you try to convince them that you are someone else-- someone named "Obito." Obito's true identity wasn't widely known. Only a handful of Leaf ninja knew the significant of his name and the only one that would look into it--if a rouge ninja named Obito started causing trouble--would have been Kakashi. As long as he could continue the facade of being Uchiha Madara (or Tobi), his cover wouldn't be blown before the actual war.
I know its simple as to why he would choose such a persona I never said that he shouldn't; I was replying to him pointing out as he said that there was no reason to lie anymore because Konan was going to die regardless. So he's thinking Tobi/Obito did give Nagato the Rinnengan because he claimed that he did and he doesn't see a reason for him to lie. Yet if he thinks there is no point anymore to lying than why did he still lie about his identity?
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