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View Poll Results: Accel World - Episode 15 Rating
Perfect 10 8 12.90%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 9 14.52%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 21 33.87%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 19.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 11.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 3.23%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 3.23%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.61%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-07-31, 05:34   Link #161
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think it is a bit a lot convenient for you to declare your own point of view as the "more appropriate reaction", and then to "call me out" about it.
Finally someone has said it. Yes, that's exactly the point which highlights much of the argument of this thread because some reactions are considered more appropriate than others based on subjective understanding. Lot of us are guilty of that including me and you've my apology for calling you out to make that point.

Quote:
I think you are assuming a lot when you propose that the ostensibly-similar reactions of others are rooted in the same logic that you are employing. I'm not convinced that most people gave their initial reaction much thought at all.
That in itself is a pretty presumptuous too if I may say so. I've posted similar reaction based on the visual portrayal of a story in many threads. I was also confident most of the time that I would be able to trace back step by step as to why I felt in a certain way at the time even if I didn't write much initially. An articulated point of view carry more weight in an argument, but it doesn't mean it's okay to automatically invalidate a reaction because it comes across not as well thought out based on how it was expressed. Actually it kinds of explain why there is always (and will be) posts that are raging about "rage posting" or why some posts expresses surprise by certain set of views. From my point of view, those sort of take usually stems from the mixture of the unwillingness to see or unable to understand where the opposing view may be coming from, or simply don't have the patience to even consider why such view can be or should be held. Before you get me wrong..... this is definitely not an accusation, rather an observation on my part that I've come to understand slowly over the years. I was more entertained in the thread than the episode, and I was equally curious when you said that you were taken back by some of the reaction. I was wondering why because you did come to understand the message, so why wouldn't you be able to understand where these initial reactions were coming from? The truth is, both point have merits... well, as of episode 15 anyway. I don't think the episode conveyed the understanding few of you took from it and thought the initial reaction made more sense from the context.

Quote:
Now, to your point. In my view, the only reason this third arc can happen is because of the way Haru gained his powers in the first arc, which is no less of a "because the plot requires" than what we saw here.

Cyan Pile arc:
- Haru is on the verge of defeat; all hope is lost
- He vows to keep on fighting because it's the only thing he can do
- He conveniently gains his wings at the moment of his greatest need
- He uses his wings to win the fight

Dusk Taker arc:
- Haru is being harassed and things look bad, but he fundamentally believes he can win in the Accelerated World because of his wings, and will show his opponent a thing a two
- He makes a tactical error and allows Dusk Taker to use his special ability
- He loses the wings right when he thought things were going in his favour
- He is devastated and can't find the will to keep fighting

So I suppose you could say "in the first arc, when he was down in the dirt, he still found the will to fight, so why not here?" But I think it's precisely because time has passed and he remembers that, before he had his wings, he was hopeless. (He only won that fight after he got his wings; to that point he was losing soundly.) It's different to find inner strength when you have nothing than it is to remember that when you just lost the symbol and manifestation of that very power/strength. So this is why it's important for Haru to go back to having nothing again. It's a story of appreciating what you have, and him understanding that his wings were never really the source of his power (or why he really won that first fight) in the first place. If it weren't for the exact way the first arc developed, the development here wouldn't make any sense.
Allow me to summarize our disagreemnet in few sentences. I consider the visual translation of the story in episode 15 to drive home the message rather a poor one. You don't. I'm willing to assign criticism at how it is written to achieve why Haru has acted the way he has. You are acknowledging a weakness which is used to flesh out Haru's development, but still willing to move on because you've got the end-message.


Quote:
So I don't think that this is a step backwards for his character development, but rather something that builds progressively on what we've already seen. It does very much "take into account all advances made previously on [his] character". Of course, as I said, I certainly concede that him needed to lose that fight was no less contrived than him needing to win the fight with Cyan Pile. And if you want to make an argument, as some did, that Dusk Taker's bullying is flimsy and seemingly easy-to-defeat, I can certainly entertain that (I said something similar in the previous week's thread). But I think it is perfectly reasonable -- and yes more appropriate -- for people to see how the overall plot development builds on the previous arcs than to claim that it's a regression of character. Whether I've "seen better" is totally irrelevant to that argument.
The idea behind episode 15 was to deconstruct Haru to set up further plot progression which require a new Haru to emerge from the ashes so he can face off stronger opponent who has yet to appear while at the same time getting a boost in character-confidence and further his development. Yes, a deconstruction took place in this episode, but to me it came at an expense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Just watch 16. I look forward to your comments on 16, because I don't really think 15 should be treated as a self-contained story in itself.
I don't know if you had the pleasure of reading through some of our posts, but it mostly stemmed from if the initial reactions are fair or not from the context of the episode. Some of us thought there was nothing wrong with it, others felt the reactions are inappropriate because either they didn't understand what's taking place or just "rage posting" to quote Kaio.

Quote:
It's worth noting that Noumi is in no way a known quantity. There is no prospect of KYH returning swiftly. Haru is a boy with horrendously low self-esteem, and needs others to strengthen his backbone. If Haru was female, what Noumi did to him would be quite similar to rape. Whatever development Haru has undergone is not enough for him to deal with someone like Noumi (yes, as mid-grade boss villain material he is) solo.
Agreed! I'm just arguing that episode 15 may have undermined some of those points and development to achieve the deconstruction of his character.

Quote:
I prefer not to take a reductionist view and treat each episode as a self-contained story anyway, so I think throwing egg-tarts at Haru , or the author, Kawahara is premature until we see this arc play out to it's ultimate conclusion.
How this plays out in the future remains to be seen, but that said, I think I'm allowed to make an assessment of the writing after watching 15 episodes and I'm certainly not basing such opinion on episode 15 alone. As I said, I watched all 15 episodes before concluding the writing is rather average and I have seen better. The show is still enjoyable because Haru's character is pretty interesting to watch considering it's not often where you see an attempt made to make a character where many can relate to in real life regardless of the type of story told. Yeah, it's not often I get to see a fat kid as the star of the show where his problems are exposed so candidly and still able to generate so much empathy, anguish, and anger from so many. I've been enjoying reading the threads more at times than watching the show as a result. Anyway, looking forward to episode 16 as soon as I can make some time.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-07-31 at 10:08. Reason: Double post? ^^;
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Old 2012-07-31, 11:37   Link #162
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Allow me to summarize our disagreemnet in few sentences. I consider the visual translation of the story in episode 15 to drive home the message rather a poor one. You don't. I'm willing to assign criticism at how it is written to achieve why Haru has acted the way he has. You are acknowledging a weakness which is used to flesh out Haru's development, but still willing to move on because you've got the end-message.
Well, to me, the most important part of any story isn't the mechanics of how it's told, but what the message is and how it connects to the characters and the on-going development of the plot. So this is why I was taken aback by the comments that suggested the development shown was a regression because, in my mind, the development only does make sense as a sequel to what came before.

Perhaps it wasn't conveyed as effectively as it should be. For example, it may have helpful for the show to place more emphasis on Haru's reliance on his wings as a source of strength so that his misplaced confidence was more clearly articulated (it was there, but perhaps not as clear as it could have been). Then, when the story removed that crutch, it would seem more like karma. That said, they used another storytelling device they often use in this story, and that is to reveal things only after they occur for the first time -- which is, again, for the sake of the plot. We had no idea that it was possible to steal someone's ability in this game, and I don't recall any foreshadowing to that effect (but I may be forgetting something now). I think this is intended to convey Haru's own sense of surprise, but in the end it is a bit transparent... though, it's not as if this element is new; it's been there from the start.

So, would I concede that the writing is a bit clumsy and... ham-fisted ()? Sure... though this anime would hardly be anywhere near alone in such an accusation. That said, most of the comments I saw didn't seem to be pointing to this fact, but seemed to be saying more directly that the development in the episode contradicted previous development... which itself would contradict the way I understood the plot. So that's the point in particular that I had to question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
That in itself is a pretty presumptuous too if I may say so. I've posted similar reaction based on the visual portrayal of a story in many threads. I was also confident most of the time that I would be able to trace back step by step as to why I felt in a certain way at the time even if I didn't write much initially. An articulated point of view carry more weight in an argument, but it doesn't mean it's okay to automatically invalidate a reaction because it comes across not as well thought out based on how it was expressed.
For myself, anyway, my goal wasn't to "invalidate" the reaction, but to question it. I hope I was more-or-less clear that I didn't understand the reaction because I saw it differently, and I tried to explain the way I saw it. I think that's really all we can do. I would like people to think through their reactions; if people already have, then great: please help me understand it by providing more details; if people have not, let's talk it through. I think that's the only way that we can understand each others different points of view, even if we don't end up agreeing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Actually it kinds of explain why there is always (and will be) posts that are raging about "rage posting" or why some posts expresses surprise by certain set of views. From my point of view, those sort of take usually stems from the mixture of the unwillingness to see or unable to understand where the opposing view may be coming from, or simply don't have the patience to even consider why such view can be or should be held.
Well, I think there is a big difference between "raging about rage posting" and questioning (or "expressing surprise at") people's statements and reactions. I would agree with you that the former is a sort of intolerance that isn't really appropriate or constructive (because all opinions are welcome), but the latter seems to be rather essential to having a conversation. When opinions seem to be either particularly reliant on hyperbole, or contain statements that appear to contract basic tenants of your own interpretation, it can certainly be hard to understand. I think I have a reasonable allowance for varying points of view, but there are still areas where two points of view can be fundamentally incompatible. In those areas, we have to discuss so that we can at least understand each other. But this is all still fundamentally rooted in a respect for each other, and a basic assumption that both parties are reasonable people. My statement that you couldn't assume other people had thought through their reaction or arrived at the same conclusion you did was not meant to preclude this sort of basic respect (as I think you should know of me by now). Everyone's reactions are their own, and each person has their own reasons, which we sometime share.


Anyway... the story has proceeded beyond this point, and we can see how it develops from this point on. In the end, it's probably only in the context of the final destination that we can really look back on what this episode was intending to accomplish, and then make a judgement of how effectively it accomplished that end (or come up with reasonable suggestions of how it could have been accomplished otherwise and still produce the same overall outcome).
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Old 2012-08-01, 22:12   Link #163
Guido
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Destruction

This was a good episode, although I felt really the worse for Haru due that Noumi reduced him to how the former started at the beginning of the series.

Harus' wings were that made him so special, and his unique talent got stolen by morally deplorable jerk like Noumi to force him as his lap dog in order to get points.

And, this state of crisis caused so much anxiety on Haru reverting to his inferiority complex, that he nearly triggered a rift in his friendship with Taku.

If the second op was any indication for forgotten characters from the past, returning to play an actual role in the story and not just for the sake of battles per se, then Ash return came as a soul saver to Haru.

Ash can be a jerk, but he stays true to the spirit of the Burst World earning points by winning battles himself, unlike Noumi who right now is evil for humiliating his opponents and stealing their techniques to subdue them as his personal lackeys for his self-interest.

Now, we got ourselves another player introducing herself into the Accel World; Ash's guardian, the Sky Raker, whom might inspire Haru how to reconnect with his lost self again.
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Old 2012-09-06, 15:40   Link #164
kitten320
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Ok, I'm pissed off on so many levels now. In previous episode I was all happy that Haru finally maned up and tried to fight in real world and now all of it was flushed in a toilet...

I understand that losing his wings is a huge damage since they were important but he makes a much bigger deal out of it than he should!
He can't fight without wings? WTF?! Then how the hell did he beat Ash when he just started to use Burst Link? How did he win all those other fights until his showdown with Taku? HE HAD NO WINGS! Dude wake up! Instead of sulking try to learn new abilities and think of a way on how to retrieve your wings back!
Without Burst Link you are useless in real world? With that one sentence he killed my whole interest in the show. I believed that games were supposed to help him to man up in real world and last episode was a proof of it. Bur now it all comes back to where we started. Haru did not progress a bit in real life and keeps living in fake world and once the game is finished, he will be nobody again.
This show is going in circle and with 0 development on Haru's side!

And second, they are idiots for not telling Taku and Kuro... whatever her name is!
a) It is easier to think of a solution when you have more people
b) Tell them in private, in a safe area without internet so the asshole would not find out and make them stay quiet until they come up with a plan
c) Kuro is a level 9 player! She would destroy the guy!
d) Where is guarantee that the dude will give the wings back? He doesn't rise a bit of trust in him! Haru will be a slave dog for nothing and then it will be too late to do anything.

Seriously, so much drama for nothing! And Haru is a waste of a character! If he keeps up with his loser attitude, I want him to lose his Burst Link and go back into shit hole. When will you learn you dumb brick of wall?!
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Old 2012-09-06, 15:46   Link #165
Dr. Casey
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lol

I'll just say to keep watching, Haru makes a swift recovery and it's explained why they don't tell Taku and KYH at first.
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Old 2012-09-06, 16:32   Link #166
thundrakkon
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@kitten320

Yes, that is the sentiment of many people here on the board. It is depressing, but you now know that there is only one way to go, since it is the worst it can get right now.
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