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Old 2012-09-06, 21:43   Link #581
quigonkenny
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
If he doesn't have a bankai, it'd be a bit of a plot hole. Because it's a fact that those who've achieved bankai are able to release to shikai without saying their zanpakuto's release command. And this is something Aizen has taken advantage of time and time again.

In fact, even when we saw him perform the hypnosis ceremony on someone for the very first time (Barragan), he did not say his zanpakuto's command to release to shikai in order to initially trap him under its spell.
Not to say that you're wrong (my "no Aizen Bankai" theory is a theory after all), but it's fairly common in fighting manga and thematically similar works for the author to dispense with "shot calling" requirements as a story progresses. Call it laziness, or economy of words, or whatever, but it would be a very Kubo thing to do...

And even if it is intentional, there's nothing saying that Aizen's hypothetical shortcoming isn't limited just to an inability to manifest a Bankai, and everything else, up to and including surpassing the requirement to verbally release his Shikai, is perfectly attainable for him.

Also, Aizen did verbally release his Zanpakuto when he conquered Hueco Mundo (chapter 371). Granted, the implication is that he already had Barragan, etc., enthralled before then, but we don't know the exact requirements of how it enthralls someone, or when exactly the hollows became enthralled. Our only source on that kind of information isn't exactly trustworthy...
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Old 2012-09-06, 22:31   Link #582
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maybe the reason Aizen never revealed his bankai was because Kubo was keeping it for this final arc.

i wonder who will bust him out of jail...hope it will be Ichigo cause I can't wait to see the stupid look on his face when he hears what he has to do haha!
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Old 2012-09-06, 23:30   Link #583
sayde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Not to say that you're wrong (my "no Aizen Bankai" theory is a theory after all), but it's fairly common in fighting manga and thematically similar works for the author to dispense with "shot calling" requirements as a story progresses. Call it laziness, or economy of words, or whatever, but it would be a very Kubo thing to do...

And even if it is intentional, there's nothing saying that Aizen's hypothetical shortcoming isn't limited just to an inability to manifest a Bankai, and everything else, up to and including surpassing the requirement to verbally release his Shikai, is perfectly attainable for him.
You don't have to justify your theory to me any further. Afterall, I suppose there really are numerous ways to explain it. The main point is that unless such explanations are provided, it would still present a plot-hole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Also, Aizen did verbally release his Zanpakuto when he conquered Hueco Mundo (chapter 371). Granted, the implication is that he already had Barragan, etc., enthralled before then, but we don't know the exact requirements of how it enthralls someone, or when exactly the hollows became enthralled. Our only source on that kind of information isn't exactly trustworthy...
The hypnosis ceremony is quite simple. Aizen unsheathes his zanpakuto, ensures his target is looking at the blade, and then releases to shikai at any given moment. Obviously, due to the nature of the ability, using ones senses to know the exact moment he's released his weapon would be virtually impossible (assuming there's any visual or audible cues to be noticed in the first place). And while our only source of info may be from none other than Aizen himself, Kubo didn't really have a compelling reason to fill Aizens exposition to Unohana with lies. Afterall, once you're under hypnosis, its too late to do anything about it. So its not like knowing how you were trapped in the first place is going to help.

In Barry's case, I'm 99% positive Aizen released to shikai, the moment he held his weapon in front of him upside down and finished the ceremony right before the first words of his proposition speech. How the other hollows were caught under the spell, if at all, is of no concern since the rest of the scene only shows the illusion from Barry's PoV. Now Kubo's made Aizen say his release command on multiple occasions--the scene you're referring to in chapter 371 is one such example. Speaking of which, he seems to prefer stating the command immediately before dispelling an illusion. So this would be long after he goes shikai--which is the dilemma. Having said that, there have also been times when Aizen has not stated a release command to dispel his illusions. The most prominent example is when Hitsugaya stabbed Hinamori. But there have been more times too. (Like dispelling the illusion against Komamura before roasting him w/ hado 90) or dispelling the illusion after he sliced Hitsugaya up in central 46. So what does this mean?

IMO, Kubo makes Aizen state the "shatter" release command mostly for the readers benefit when he feels it's necessary. I've never felt inclined to give Kubo anymore credit than that. But hey, I could be wrong. Maybe Kubo's fridge logic will pull through. He'll bring Aizen back to the plot, give him his shinigami powers back with his original abilities in-tact and actually take the time out to come up with explanations that will fill-in the minor hole or two involved with not having a bankai (if that's indeed the case). Or he could just give him a bankai and come up with some reason for not using it before. *shrugs*
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Old 2012-09-07, 13:13   Link #584
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my commander can beat up your commander!

also, troll bankai teaser?
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Old 2012-09-07, 17:11   Link #585
Sabaku Kyu
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I'm itching to see Yamaji's bankai! Though I'm more curious about whose sword was held up to Urahara's shoulder (yeah yeah...10 to 1 it's GJ or Nel. Just show us already!).

As for whether Aizen having bankai or not... I don't see someone of Aizen's genius and obsession with perfection not obtaining bankai if he had the potential. But I suppose it's completely possible that Kyouka Suigetsu's has some special limitations in exchange for the power of complete hypnosis. There's typically a few reasons characters won't use certain powers

A) They're so powerful they're never forced to wield it
B)It's too dangerous to nearby allies
C) They don't like revealing it openly
D) There's a heavy price for using it.

So assuming Aizen has bankai, it's probably a combination of A and D why we've never seen it.
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Old 2012-09-07, 22:17   Link #586
Marcus H.
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But I suppose it's completely possible that Kyouka Suigetsu's has some special limitations in exchange for the power of complete hypnosis.
It probably is a power-compression Bankai like Genryusai's and Ichigo's. It probably allows him to capture people inside that person's personal illusion, but also requires Aizen's sword to either make contact with an enemy's body or sword.
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Old 2012-09-08, 06:37   Link #587
metzler
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mystery sword owner

I was just reading some old Bleach manga and I think the mystery sword belongs to Gin. The attack style in which the SR was slashed with no bs matches too. I know, I know its crazy but you cannot absolutely rule it out.

Last edited by metzler; 2012-09-08 at 07:13.
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Old 2012-09-08, 20:30   Link #588
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That doesn't make much sense since his body should be collected by SS. And Gin can't use illusions.
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Old 2012-09-08, 21:52   Link #589
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Yeah everyone knows Gin is dead, don't be a troll.
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Old 2012-09-09, 00:23   Link #590
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chapter 417 he told himself that itchigo's gaze has grown strong and that he can die knowing itachigo will kill aizen.

hes pretty much dead, he was almost sliced in half, had his arm ripped off and no one could have saved him at that moment. if he was alive he would have to face punishment for his crimes and tite would have shown that.
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Old 2012-09-09, 03:25   Link #591
Bassoonicmayhem
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Though I'm more curious about whose sword was held up to Urahara's shoulder (yeah yeah...10 to 1 it's GJ or Nel. Just show us already!).
I am too! This is probably one of the reasons I'm still, somewhat invested in the story--I'm banking on the fact that the mysterious person is Grimmjow. Yeah, I know it's predictable, but he was my favorite character besides Gin. I think Kubo will reveal this after the bad guy captures Yama's bankai, cliffhangs that story (only to resolved it off panel later) and then he'll return to this moment.

And it will most likely happen in either two ways:

1.) We briefly visit Ichigo, to see that he is still stuck in that trap, before we pan to Urahara and the Mystery Person. They forge an alliance to kill the Christmas Ornament bad guy and figure out how to save Ichigo.

2.) Or we'll have to endure a few chapters of Ichigo's self-loathing, before he somehow gets the confidence (or hate--some sort of motivation) to power-up enough to free himself. Then, the mystery person will be revealed.

I would prefer option 1, but I have a feeling that it will be something along the lines of option 2. Ichigo entering his inner world to gain confidence in himself--yadda, yadda, yadda. Rinse and repeat. I just want to see Grimmjow. Is that too much to ask for?
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Old 2012-09-09, 09:44   Link #592
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Originally Posted by bigdeal000 View Post
I reread it and he never sais he can die. He said he can leave, forget about Aizen. And if he died, why did nobody say anything? Even Rangiku said nothing about him being dead, the way she was talking it feeled more like he simply dissapeared somewhere. This is bleach, i don't believe he is dead until we don't get a clear confirmation of that.
All the translations I have read clearly state,"I can die and leave the rest to you" and the chapter before he says he is glad he apologized to rangiku in advance because he wouldn't be able to do it now as hes dying at such a rate he cant even talk.

all of his words are in his head because aizen wrecked him. rangiku is crying uncontrollably because her longest friend is dying and she cant do anything to stop it.

why would he come back, his purpose is done. His mission was to kill aizen as he felt he was the only one capable of it and he failed. As he died he seen that itchigo was a man determined and capable of doing what he couldnt.
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Old 2012-09-09, 10:00   Link #593
metzler
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I understand the points everyone is making but this is Kubo and Bleach we are talking about so until I have absolute confirmation Gin is dead I will keep him as a possiblity. We never did see his second form and he did say he was a snake. Maybe he just shed his skin like a snake.

Also, in this translation Gin says "leave it to you and hit the trail"
http://www.mangapanda.com/94-56926-1...apter-417.html

Last edited by metzler; 2012-09-09 at 11:54.
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Old 2012-09-09, 22:47   Link #594
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Didn't Kubo confirm Gin (as well as Ulquiorra's) death in a recent interview?
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Old 2012-09-10, 06:02   Link #595
Sabaku Kyu
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I would prefer option 1, but I have a feeling that it will be something along the lines of option 2. Ichigo entering his inner world to gain confidence in himself--yadda, yadda, yadda. Rinse and repeat. I just want to see Grimmjow. Is that too much to ask for?
Much like the Winter War I don't think Ichigo will show until a pivotal moment. So the I imagine the earliest we'll see him is when Yamamoto is going down for the count. But he could very well show up too late this time. I should really know better, but I have confidence that Yamamoto's bankai vs. Juha Bach will be a completely on-screen battle. Ichigo will have to wait.

And I also very much want to see Grimmjow return...as an actual fighter, not one of Ichigo's lackeys (little chance of that though). Whoever the mystery person is, they will probably be the key to freeing Ichigo.
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Old 2012-09-10, 15:26   Link #596
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Well I don't want to see Ichigo until his inner hollow comes back. Ichigo has become too boring. It seems all he's good at nowadays is yelling like a madman. Kubo really slaughtered his character since the defeat of Aizen(IMO).
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Old 2012-09-10, 16:51   Link #597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Much like the Winter War I don't think Ichigo will show until a pivotal moment. So the I imagine the earliest we'll see him is when Yamamoto is going down for the count. But he could very well show up too late this time. I should really know better, but I have confidence that Yamamoto's bankai vs. Juha Bach will be a completely on-screen battle. Ichigo will have to wait.

And I also very much want to see Grimmjow return...as an actual fighter, not one of Ichigo's lackeys (little chance of that though). Whoever the mystery person is, they will probably be the key to freeing Ichigo.
You know, Kubo's been trolling so hard this arc, it wouldn't surprise me if Ichigo showed up in SS in the next panel, only to see Yamamoto dead alongside Grimmjow, both owned by Captain Buckbeard, and to have some random shinigami say "wooow, that was the BEST battle ever, and GRIMMJOW showed up too, but man did Juha Bach totally own them together by stealing the bankai of the captain commander, woooow it was such an awesome bankai too!".

Then, Ichigo attacks, and we have a boring 18 chapter long Ichigo fight!
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Old 2012-09-10, 17:00   Link #598
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Prediction: We won't see Yama-ji's bankai next chapter. We'll get the flashback of when they first fought. Also from what it looks like, Yama-ji got that initial scar from Buckbeard.
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Old 2012-09-10, 21:37   Link #599
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You would think but didn't he already have both scars in that flashbackish panel they showed?
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Old 2012-09-10, 23:31   Link #600
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*looks at chapter again*
^^It would seem so.
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