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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 51 48.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 37 34.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 10.38%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 4.72%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.94%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.94%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-08, 06:07   Link #281
Kimidori
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltyred View Post
Kirei would raise Rin to be a fine person, that would be best.
what......
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Old 2012-06-09, 11:39   Link #282
Altima of the Gates
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I'm not a Fate novel reader, but Kariya knew Sakura and Rin well because they were his friend Aoi's children, and he was very fond of them and vice versa. Sakura was a girl he had spent time with and felt affection for. If saving Sakura was his main goal, that would not automatically equal him being willing to do the same for anyone at all, because Sakura was not just anyone to him. It is entirely possible that he was acting to save her because of the affection he held for her, rather than it having to be because of ulterior motives involving her parents.
One of his main reasons he did what he did was because he felt guilty that his walking out (understandably) at that time subjected someone else to that horrid fate, given the Makiri 'heirs' are primarily Zouken's puppets.

We can't ever say if he would do this for anyone else given that he stays far away from his old home and goes straight to Aoi, Rin, and Sakura when he visits Fuyuki. So he'd have no way of telling any other child/person got the treatment, given how low key the Matou are and how completely seperate from the magic world he is at the moment.
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Old 2012-07-19, 12:00   Link #283
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Meltyred View Post
But if Kariya won at this point, it wouldn't change Sakura's fate since she has no legal guardian that will live long time anyway. (So she would be adopted by zouken, again.)
Why would Zouken have adopted Sakura? He has no interest whatsoever in her once he's got the Grail. Further, why couldn't she be returned to her mother and sister? Aoi is still alive, even if not sane.
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Old 2012-07-20, 05:53   Link #284
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Why would Zouken have adopted Sakura? He has no interest whatsoever in her once he's got the Grail. Further, why couldn't she be returned to her mother and sister? Aoi is still alive, even if not sane.
Because her mother is insane and she needs a guardian there would a change Kotomine would become her guardian.
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Old 2012-09-02, 04:58   Link #285
SJCrew
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"Change of plans - I shall use a race to settle things with the girl!"

I have to admit, that made me smile a bit, but..

"You really are the renowned King of Knights, flower of the battlefield!"

What...didn't you say you renounced her as a king because of her self-sacrifice?

"He was never interested in his opponent's power or wealth."

Mhm. But a scene ago, he was impressed enough by Saber's display of power/spirit (whatever the fuck you want to call winning a close race is) to reacknowledge her as the King of Knights. Oh whatever, we'll just ignore the obvious inconsistencies in character writing because Waver said so.

"Without destroying or degrading them, he sought to conquer souls."

.....

And yeah, Kariya's no good. Sorry about that, fans. :/ The misunderstanding trope is a horrible, horrible cliche that persists even in modern day writing...which is the true tragedy here, not the scene itself. Aoi rushes in thinking Kariya killed her husband, and instead of properly explaining himself, he gives away his last bit of sanity and humanity to silence her. I thought he retained some of his moral fiber even through his apparent insanity, but as he nears death, he's bound to break down... I just don't think Kariya was written as a character I could ever like.

And lol, I predicted exactly what Kirei would say at the end of the episode.

"What are your thoughts, Kirei?"

"More wine."

lol.

Terrible episode, 3/10.

Last edited by SJCrew; 2012-09-02 at 05:55.
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Old 2012-09-02, 09:30   Link #286
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Quote:
And yeah, Kariya's no good. Sorry about that, fans. :/ The misunderstanding trope is a horrible, horrible cliche that persists even in modern day writing...which is the true tragedy here, not the scene itself. Aoi rushes in thinking Kariya killed her husband, and instead of properly explaining himself, he gives away his last bit of sanity and humanity to silence her. I thought he retained some of his moral fiber even through his apparent insanity, but as he nears death, he's bound to break down... I just don't think Kariya was written as a character I could ever like.
The problem with that theory is that the anime leads you to believe that he is actually somehow fine, when he isn't. People who have been in a lot of pain over a long period of time do not tend to handle stress well. Moreover, he did say that he didn't do it, and she, instead of actually believing her childhood friend, probed him as if he was the killer. So, like often happens in real life, things can and do take a turn for the worse in tense situations like this. No one was thinking clearly, and people acted rashly.

Especially when Kariya had already told her that he was fighting for Sakura, she immediately interrogated him as if he was fighting for the Makiri's desire for the Grail, which he wasn't, and she knew he wasn't. So while I will say he did the worst thing possible here, I give him the leeway of actually having brain damage. Aoi was described in the novel as being the perfect wife for a magus, because she believes and obeys unquestioningly, and that was not meant to be all positive. I doubt highly she would have listened to Kariya at this point, unless he dragged her to the Matous and she saw Sakura in the pit. It'd have to be that graphic and eye-opening.
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Old 2012-09-02, 10:26   Link #287
chaos_alfa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJCrew View Post
And yeah, Kariya's no good. Sorry about that, fans. :/ The misunderstanding trope is a horrible, horrible cliche that persists even in modern day writing...which is the true tragedy here, not the scene itself. Aoi rushes in thinking Kariya killed her husband, and instead of properly explaining himself, he gives away his last bit of sanity and humanity to silence her. I thought he retained some of his moral fiber even through his apparent insanity, but as he nears death, he's bound to break down... I just don't think Kariya was written as a character I could ever like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
The problem with that theory is that the anime leads you to believe that he is actually somehow fine, when he isn't. People who have been in a lot of pain over a long period of time do not tend to handle stress well. Moreover, he did say that he didn't do it, and she, instead of actually believing her childhood friend, probed him as if he was the killer. So, like often happens in real life, things can and do take a turn for the worse in tense situations like this. No one was thinking clearly, and people acted rashly.

Especially when Kariya had already told her that he was fighting for Sakura, she immediately interrogated him as if he was fighting for the Makiri's desire for the Grail, which he wasn't, and she knew he wasn't. So while I will say he did the worst thing possible here, I give him the leeway of actually having brain damage. Aoi was described in the novel as being the perfect wife for a magus, because she believes and obeys unquestioningly, and that was not meant to be all positive. I doubt highly she would have listened to Kariya at this point, unless he dragged her to the Matous and she saw Sakura in the pit. It'd have to be that graphic and eye-opening.
And the light novel explicit states his brain isn't working correctly anymore because of the worms.
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Old 2012-09-06, 23:34   Link #288
Thess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJCrew View Post
"You really are the renowned King of Knights, flower of the battlefield!"

What...didn't you say you renounced her as a king because of her self-sacrifice?
"Kishi-Ou" is a nickname for Saber. It has nothing to do with thinking she's a ruler. Gilgamesh thinks of her as a piece of furniture and still calls her that way sometimes. Her self-sacrifice isn't quite the reason why Rider doesn't respect her as a king, that's more the reason why he wants to 'save' her.

Her wish is why he can't respect her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJCrew View Post
"He was never interested in his opponent's power or wealth."

Mhm. But a scene ago, he was impressed enough by Saber's display of power/spirit (whatever the fuck you want to call winning a close race is) to reacknowledge her as the King of Knights. Oh whatever, we'll just ignore the obvious inconsistencies in character writing because Waver said so.
While power is important, in the end, what Rider's prioritizes is the human factor and bonds. He likes Saber (and Lancer) more than he likes Gilgamesh (even if he respects Gilgamesh more), and she's less powerful. You said so too: her spirit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJCrew View Post
"Without destroying or degrading them, he sought to conquer souls."

.....
That's been established since season 1. Someone needs to re-watch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJCrew View Post
And yeah, Kariya's no good. Sorry about that, fans. :/ The misunderstanding trope is a horrible, horrible cliche that persists even in modern day writing...which is the true tragedy here, not the scene itself. Aoi rushes in thinking Kariya killed her husband, and instead of properly explaining himself, he gives away his last bit of sanity and humanity to silence her. I thought he retained some of his moral fiber even through his apparent insanity, but as he nears death, he's bound to break down... I just don't think Kariya was written as a character I could ever like..
Kariya's brain is not functional. He didn't even recognize Aoi. Clearer in the novels. I think the anime made his design too pretty rather than nuclear explosion victim who can barely crawl and only lives by magic. He was clawing his face in this scene in the novels. This part was weak in adaptation.
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Last edited by Thess; 2012-09-07 at 00:23.
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Old 2012-09-07, 07:30   Link #289
SJCrew
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I criticize Rider and Thess shows up - right on cue!

Quote:
"Kishi-Ou" is a nickname for Saber. It has nothing to do with thinking she's a ruler. Gilgamesh thinks of her as a piece of furniture and still calls her that way sometimes. Her self-sacrifice isn't quite the reason why Rider doesn't respect her as a king, that's more the reason why he wants to 'save' her.

Her wish is why he can't respect her.
Your explanation doesn't match up with the actual dialogue. Firstly, read that quote you skipped over, which confirms that he intended to accept Saber in full because of that one race. "I will use a race to settle things with the girl." That's exactly what happens, and they have no further interaction in the series. Also, the first thing he mentions in his partnership proposal to Gilgamesh is the Gate of Babylon being useful to his soldiers. From these examples, I can gather that power is the deciding factor to determine who Iskandar would partner with even if he disagreed with them. (Yes, he and Gilgamesh do share an instance of firm disagreement, as seen in episode 14)

As for the relationship between Saber and Rider, Gilgamesh laughed when Saber told them of her intentions, but it was only when she explained her methods of kingship that Rider became vocal. That is what he mentions time and time again throughout the series.

Episode 14: "That light comes from her having taken her people's hopes all upon herself. Its brightness is what makes it tragic. ... It is too painful to look upon."

Her wish is never mentioned again until the end of the series.

Quote:
While power is important, in the end, what Rider's prioritizes is the human factor and bonds. He likes Saber (and Lancer) more than he likes Gilgamesh (even if he respects Gilgamesh more), and she's less powerful. You said so too: her spirit.
Series wise, this is unfounded. There is no scale measuring up how much he likes one character as opposed to another other than what he says. He criticizes Saber because he pities her. He respects Gilgamesh, and well, there is no more important a sentiment between two men.

Quote:
That's been established since season 1. Someone needs to re-watch.
You seem to have confused my ellipses for "Rider didn't say that!" He just made an exception for Saber, who he quite clearly degraded in Episode 11 to the point of speechlessness. In fact, his character seems the most inconsistent when he's around Saber.

I don't fully agree with his philosophies either. Ideally, there should be a compromise between Saber's ideals and Rider's ideals where people should not be expected to sacrifice themselves to ensure that the king gets what he wants and that a king should not have to sacrifice their humanity in order to rule. Rider was a great leader and people wanted to follow him. I get that. But his mindset of entitlement is a bit twisted. Gilgamesh was the perfect opponent to make him realize his folly. If Rider were to have survived that defeat, I'm betting it would have humbled him quite a bit. He's a wise man, so I'm pretty sure he knows what it means to be outmatched.

Also, I'm very baffled as to why you guys feel the need to defend Kariya when you're basically restating what I said. "He's insane because of the worms." Uh...yeah? "I endured all of that for you and Sakrua" isn't the clearest indicator he doesn't recognize the woman he loves. "I'll never forgive you if you deny all that?" Clear and conscious [?] rebuke...of the very same Aoi he loves. With the horror on his face as she enters the church to Tokiomi's dead body...who could he have possibly mistaken her for? Lmao.

But yeah, the jealousy, rage, and worms and stuff drive him to attempt murder.
Spoiler:

Last edited by SJCrew; 2012-09-07 at 18:09.
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Old 2012-09-07, 11:52   Link #290
chaos_alfa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJCrew View Post

Also, I'm very baffled as to why you guys feel the need to defend Kariya when you're basically restating what I said. "He's insane because of the worms." Uh...yeah? "I endured all of that for you and Sakrua" isn't the clearest indicator he doesn't recognize the woman he loves. "I'll never forgive you if you deny all that?" Clear and conscious [?] rebuke...of the very same Aoi he loves. With the horror on his face as she enters the church to Tokiomi's...who could he have possibly mistaken her for? Lmao.

But yeah, the jealousy, rage, and worms and stuff drive him to attempt murder.
Spoiler:
This is how it went in the light novel.

Spoiler for Light Novel - Act 14 - Kariya’s Church Scene:
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Old 2012-09-07, 18:45   Link #291
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Going to send the Rider answers in a PM, because they contain spoilers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJCrew View Post
Also, I'm very baffled as to why you guys feel the need to defend Kariya when you're basically restating what I said. "He's insane because of the worms." Uh...yeah? "I endured all of that for you and Sakrua" isn't the clearest indicator he doesn't recognize the woman he loves. "I'll never forgive you if you deny all that?" Clear and conscious [?] rebuke...of the very same Aoi he loves. With the horror on his face as she enters the church to Tokiomi's...who could he have possibly mistaken her for? Lmao.

But yeah, the jealousy, rage, and worms and stuff drive him to attempt murder.
Spoiler:
chaos_alfa already gave you the novel quote. Kariya's strain wasn't only emotional, his organs (including his brain) weren't functioning. Look at this description of him in the initial battle (episode 5) to see how the anime tone down his suffering (the manga portrays it very well):

Spoiler for novel:


That was in season one.

Of course jealousy and other factors played a role, but the man wasn't in a state to sip tea calmly. He was practically a zombie.
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Old 2012-09-08, 07:06   Link #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Going to send the Rider answers in a PM, because they contain spoilers?
Boo I want to see the discussion

Edit: The discussion could also be moved to this thread:

Fate/Zero General Character Discussion Thread

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2012-09-08 at 16:28.
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Old 2012-09-08, 14:39   Link #293
Thess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
Boo I want to see the discussion

I didn't want to get banned because I was talking about the Fate route and spoiling a CD Drama. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
Edit: The discussion could also be move to this thread:

Fate/Zero General Character Discussion Thread
Unfortunately, I didn't save my replies. So I can only show you once they answer.
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Old 2012-09-08, 16:30   Link #294
chaos_alfa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
I didn't want to get banned because I was talking about the Fate route and spoiling a CD Drama. Sorry.



Unfortunately, I didn't save my replies. So I can only show you once they answer.
Could you move the discussion to the Fate/Zero General Character Discussion Thread when you get them?
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