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Old 2012-09-07, 12:04   Link #241
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
These sort of obstructive tactics are signs of a dysfunctional democratic system. If things continue along that path, it doesn't bode well.
I tend to agree, the US is on a knife edge of sorts, teetering between "great things" and a freakish dark age fascism with a two tier economy made up of the 0.01% and the "ur fscked".
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Old 2012-09-07, 12:14   Link #242
GDB
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I think if it got to that point the remainder of the "middle class" (that weren't brainwashed) would up and leave for Canada or Britain. Unless they truly go dark age totalitarianism or something.
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Old 2012-09-07, 12:48   Link #243
willx
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Once again, I fail to see how Dems have hardened. They have become Republicans of old; doesn't that mean the exact opposite from hardening? Dems became like their old enemies while their enemies went insane.
Now.. I'm Canadian, but having followed and heard the speeches of both conventions, it floors me how polarized politics have become in North America, not just the U.S. The Democrats, despite all their "loving" "peaceful" "conciliatory" words display outright a sense of "smug intellectual superiority" .. despite all the GOP gaffes.. don't forget the controversy about the Dems comparing Romney/Ryan to Nazis.

Personally? I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberal, so would fall to the right-end of the Dems and just shy of the most left-leaning Republicans.. But I'm shocked at how both parties seem to driven by some of its most extreme elements!

GOP - I am absolutely floored by Michelle Bachmann and the sway that the Tea Party has.. it's absolutely shocking. Outright incorrect beliefs regarding the foundation and formation of the U.S. and anti-science/anti-knowledge fundamentalism is scary.. The fact that Santorum, Herman Cain and others actually were even remotely considered for the Republican ballot is absolutely horrifying.

Dems - As a Canadian, I'm proud of our Universal Healthcare system, but it's not without its problems.. I'm not sure it'll work based on the differing societal values prevalent in the U.S. - any belief otherwise is just foolhardy. Smug intellectual superiority doesn't help things either.. Most green power plans are a pipe-dream, nuclear is likely the only way to go in the future..

Politics are getting polarized around the world.. which is sad - because that means globally tolerance and reason is being suppressed by emotions.. Even here in Canada, the "strongest" parties now are the Right and Left parties - with the historical leading party, the moderate Liberals, being left by the wayside..
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Old 2012-09-07, 13:08   Link #244
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
don't forget the controversy about the Dems comparing Romney/Ryan to Nazis.
That's not controversy. It's reality. Communism is Extreme "left". Fascism is extreme "right", and this is what the Nazis were.

Take the Grover Norquists, Karl Roves, Michelle Bachmanns, etc. out of the Republican Party, and they might just go back to where they used to be.
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Old 2012-09-07, 14:15   Link #245
Vexx
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I recommend reading how Mussolini came to power, the methods used, the corporations backing it, the anti-intellectualism, the demagoguery, the appeal to zealotry. These aren't just parallels, the GOP is using the same playbook.

I'll say it again, when one person in the room is hitting everyone else with a bat, it isn't "radical" or "polarizing" to react to that.
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Old 2012-09-07, 15:31   Link #246
Sumeragi
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But when that reaction is done against anyone who might have even resembling views backed up with actual reasoning and logic, you know there is a problem.
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Old 2012-09-07, 15:40   Link #247
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
But when that reaction is done against anyone who might have even resembling views backed up with actual reasoning and logic, you know there is a problem.
There's also going to be a problem when that guy with "actual reasoning and logic" is going to support the madman.
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Old 2012-09-07, 15:45   Link #248
Sumeragi
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Even when not supporting the madman. Right now being anti-abortion by itself leads to accusations of misogyny, fascism, crackpot, when being in that position is for an entirely different reason from what the loonies use.
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Old 2012-09-07, 15:56   Link #249
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Even when not supporting the madman. Right now being anti-abortion by itself leads to accusations of misogyny, fascism, crackpot, when being in that position is for an entirely different reason from what the loonies use.
And what might those different reasons be? Just saying they're different from the loonies doesn't actually explain one's position.
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Old 2012-09-07, 16:03   Link #250
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I'm a pro-responsibility person who believes that aside from rape or the endangering of both the mother's and children's lives, if one is to do the act of sex one should be prepared to take responsibility. I always saw all the arguments of the human zygote, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus not being a human being with a right to life as a cop-out argument which brushes away why there is the pregnancy in the first place.

The above argument usually results in a massive flamefest in other forums, up to warnings and bannings nowadays. This wasn't the case some four years ago, which in my view means there is a level of intolerance which is unusual for where the American liberals usually stood at.
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Old 2012-09-07, 16:43   Link #251
GDB
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That's understandable. Only question I have to it is what if they take all the proper precautions outside of not actually having sex (ie: condoms + the pill), and by some fluke pregnancy still occurs? They were responsible enough to attempt prevention, but bad luck or a poor product from the company resulted in the accident.

Of course, you're also comparing how people on the internet act. I don't think that's a liberal or conservative thing, I think that's an influx of trolls and people who would be too spineless to say anything to anyone in real life realizing they can say anything online and get away with it.
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Old 2012-09-07, 16:52   Link #252
Anh_Minh
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It may be understandable, but it's not particularly rational.

You're either turning a baby into a means of punishment by dumping it into a home that's neither ready nor eager to receive it, or having the woman "take responsibility" by giving it up at birth, letting somebody else take care of the mess.

I've said it before, but the abortion debate and the "why"s of the pregnancy are unrelated. By the time the former rises, the latter is moot. "Why" only matters when discussing prevention of unwanted pregnancy.
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Old 2012-09-07, 16:52   Link #253
DonQuigleone
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I'm not sure if it's correct to compare the Republicans to Fascists.

One thing I'd bear in mind though is that in Germany people voted for the Nazis because the "traditional" parties were completely deadlocked and unable to achieve anything. They voted for the Nazis because they thought they'd get things done. They became disenchanted with Democracy and chose to vote in Despotism.
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Old 2012-09-07, 17:00   Link #254
Sumeragi
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The example I gave above is just one of the examples of "unconventional" views when looking from a "liberal" POV. While GDB mentioned the influx of trolls and insecure people, the trend has started among long-time established members who had been more tolerant of different views. All of them are self-professed liberals, which in turns makes me wonder why the growth in intolerance is happening.

@ Anh_Minh: It's my personal belief that there is no "moot" point in the end. Of course, given that I gave my belief on the issue as an example, I believe any further discussion should be in some other location.
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Old 2012-09-07, 17:03   Link #255
ganbaru
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Job growth cools, posing challenge for Obama, Fed
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...88604Y20120907

Paul Ryan says more stimulus from Fed a bad idea
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8860RV20120907
__________________

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Old 2012-09-07, 17:04   Link #256
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I'm not sure if it's correct to compare the Republicans to Fascists.

One thing I'd bear in mind though is that in Germany people voted for the Nazis because the "traditional" parties were completely deadlocked and unable to achieve anything. They voted for the Nazis because they thought they'd get things done. They became disenchanted with Democracy and chose to vote in Despotism.
Doesn't that kind of describe the Tea Party to a large extent?
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Old 2012-09-07, 17:08   Link #257
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No, at least the Tea Party doesn't openly say they'll take down America and destroy the democratic government system.
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Old 2012-09-07, 17:16   Link #258
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
No, at least the Tea Party doesn't openly say they'll take down America and destroy the democratic government system.
Neither did the fascists.
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Old 2012-09-07, 17:18   Link #259
Sumeragi
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Actually, the National Socialists did. I can't say for Mussolini.
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Old 2012-09-07, 17:18   Link #260
GDB
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
No, at least the Tea Party doesn't openly say they'll take down America and destroy the democratic government system.
They have been rather vocal about removing the government from as much as possible, actually...
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