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Old 2012-09-07, 14:10   Link #181
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by solidguy View Post
Did Rin die somewhere between Obito's 'death' and his clash with Minato? If her death is what motivated him to become a big bad then she should've, no?
That is the biggest problem there. If Obito acted because of emotions he should show some emotions while trying to kill his former sensei. But there's not any trace of emotion, Tobi is perfectly calm and kills people in cold blood. Tobi is the complete opposite of Sasuke, that is he shows no emotion while killing people he knows. So what did Madara and/or Zetsu do to Obito to create a cold blooded killing machine from a "good boy". Whatever happened it happened in only a couple of years, before Tobi's attack on Konoha. And Rin's death doesn't fit in that very well. Maybe Zetsu was sent out to spy on Kakashi, and he recorded the event where Rin died and Kakashi failed to protect her, and then played it back to Tobi/Obito just like he did with the Sasuke-vs-Itachi battle. But even then one would not expect that Madara appeals to Obito's emotions while he is just working hard on destroying any emotion Obito has and make of him a killing machine.

Another thing that i don't understand is how could Madara be around when Obito "died" if Madara already implanted his eyes into Nagato and died. Is Obito somehow older than Nagato? I thought Nagato was older than Obito and Kakashi, but now i can't make sense of it...
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Old 2012-09-07, 14:26   Link #182
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Thanks. And nice job to you on reading
Well quite, did you read them yourself? None of those quotes say anything about Madara's involvement in the whole thing.
The reason I mocked your post is because it was fine example of strawmanship, the fact that many people think -with reason I might add- that this Obito/Rin nonsense is a debacle has nothing to do with the fact that Madara has something to do with this.
Note how I say fact? That's why your post had no real point, yes Madara is involved, we knew that for a fact when Madara confirmed it to Kabuto, when the author flatly said it in an interview and it was necessary anyway since Nagato is a decade older than Obito.

Quote:
and also nice job on assuming that everyone who posted about this latest chapter did so on this forum. I love sarcastic posts Always a treat.
I prefer to think you as a sane person and as such I've to assume that when you make a point, you make it to the people who can read you. So unless you want to tell me that you made your post here as an answer for others people in another forum then yes I will assume that your post was directed at the posters and lurkers of this subforum.

edit: and you know while I've no doubt that with a little effort you can find someone, somewhere saying something stupid about pretty much any possible subject, I still would like to see a link to a thread where people really argue about the fact that Madara has nothing to do with any of this. Because something tell me it would be the same kind of post you listed above instead of those mythical creatures who apparently still believe Madara has nothing to do with what happened to Obito.

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What makes you believe that there were two men posing as Tobi?
There is one man posing as Tobi, however there used to be another masked man although I know you like to think Obito just enjoys growing his hair every now and then.
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
So what did Madara and/or Zetsu do to Obito to create a cold blooded killing machine from a "good boy".
You just have to look at Yagura to see one of the possibilities.

Last edited by Hunter; 2012-09-07 at 14:41.
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Old 2012-09-07, 15:21   Link #183
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Well quite, did you read them yourself? None of those quotes say anything about Madara's involvement in the whole thing.
The reason I mocked your post is because it was fine example of strawmanship, the fact that many people think -with reason I might add- that this Obito/Rin nonsense is a debacle has nothing to do with the fact that Madara has something to do with this.
No. It has to do with people complaining about shoddy writing over Rin, when they should know very well that the full explanation must involve Madara. And seeing as how we haven't yet heard how Madara was involved, how can we say if the writing is bad or not?


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I prefer to think you as a sane person and as such I've to assume that when you make a point, you make it to the people who can read you.
Well, then maybe you shouldn't have responded, as it seems you are illiterate. I quoted some of the posts I responded to. Whether you can't or or won't read them is very much not my problem.

Quote:
So unless you want to tell me that you made your post here as an answer for others people in another forum then yes I will assume that your post was directed at the posters and lurkers of this subforum.

edit: and you know while I've no doubt that with a little effort you can find someone, somewhere saying something stupid about pretty much any possible subject, I still would like to see a link to a thread where people really argue about the fact that Madara has nothing to do with any of this. Because something tell me it would be the same kind of post you listed above instead of those mythical creatures who apparently still believe Madara has nothing to do with what happened to Obito.
While I'm flattered you took the time to write this impassioned paragraph response to my light-hearted post, I don't think I'll be indulging/feeding you any further.

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There is one man posing as Tobi, however there used to be another masked man although I know you like to think Obito just enjoys growing his hair every now and then.
Last time I checked, it's possible for hair to grow. Maybe I'm wrong. (let me check with wikipedia)

[EDIT] Sorry you're right. Hair doesn't grow. It turns out Shippuden Hinata (the one with long hair) is a completely separate character from the Hinata of part one (with short hair). What happened to the first Hinata ... I'm not sure.
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Old 2012-09-07, 16:15   Link #184
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i agree with this but then the question becomes, 'then why even bring up his name at all?' he had no reason to lie, so if kishi is going to make him say his name and lie then what is the point? why even include that in the dialogue? it doesn't make sense in regard to konan, tobi or the readers.
i don't know. i just don't know lol. tobi could have just genjutsu konan and got the rinnegan whereabouts but instead she was all prepared with this 10 min explosion trap…he survives and an explanation is needed (at least i cared to know how he survived). he proceeds with the speech madara left him lol…i don't know. we will find out soon enough i suppose...




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can we back up a minute and talk about how madara arrived?

the man looked like he was fired from a rocket aiming directly at the ground lol did he not have any other way to just walk into the scene? I just found it funny how he was pretty much BOOM!...sup.
lol…considering how he landed, i assume he took off the same way. which means all the kages are alive and well, especially considering tsunade chakra boost by dan, she likely healed them all (maybe). besides we are going to need some old heads around when madara gets to talking. i was kinda hoping to see a sasuke perfect susanoo against bijou mode naruto, but things may happen different here…
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Old 2012-09-07, 16:15   Link #185
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^Actually, Hinata is a very different character in Part II. So, her change in hair is a reflection and v isual cue to her personal growth (similar to Sakura's hair cut). Tobi having two very distinct hair styles is very important to the character's history, how so is unclear (is it two different characters (which is looking like a strong posibility)? Or is Obito having some serious personality crisis?). Whatever the case, such a strong visual cue is obviously more than simply Tobi needing a trim.

That being said, no one here seems to be saying that Madara had nothing to do Obito's development. Rather, they have pointed out using Rin as an excuse seems like weak writing to them. However Madara is involved has not been comented on, but Rin's involement has. It is as simple as that.
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Old 2012-09-07, 16:37   Link #186
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Originally Posted by solidguy View Post
Did Rin die somewhere between Obito's 'death' and his clash with Minato? If her death is what motivated him to become a big bad then she should've, no?
I'd guess that's how it works. It's supported by the fact that when all the Konoha young'uns were shown gathered up so they could be safely away from the Kyuubi attack Rin wasn't among them. My guess is that she ended up dying in the 3rd ninja war anyway. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was revealed she died with a smile on her face, believing she'd be seeing Obito again soon... so sad.

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
That is the biggest problem there. If Obito acted because of emotions he should show some emotions while trying to kill his former sensei. But there's not any trace of emotion, Tobi is perfectly calm and kills people in cold blood. Tobi is the complete opposite of Sasuke, that is he shows no emotion while killing people he knows. So what did Madara and/or Zetsu do to Obito to create a cold blooded killing machine from a "good boy". Whatever happened it happened in only a couple of years, before Tobi's attack on Konoha. And Rin's death doesn't fit in that very well.
He does wear a mask, which hides emotion somewhat. And he's not exactly emotionless ŕ la Itachi. His attitude is arrogant, taunting--almost playful. More like Oro. That's worse in a way, because it indicates he's not brainwashed but thoroughly corrupted. It's possible all Obito's emotions/compassion/values "died" when he learned about Rin, but maybe it does have something to do with the way he was revived too. It's fitting for his "Moon's Eye" plan because it removes all hope & emotion from everyone, leaving them empty shells like he is.

Quote:
Another thing that i don't understand is how could Madara be around when Obito "died" if Madara already implanted his eyes into Nagato and died. Is Obito somehow older than Nagato? I thought Nagato was older than Obito and Kakashi, but now i can't make sense of it...
Madara said that he planned on having Nagato eventually resurrect him using the Rinnegan. It was never stated when he actually died.
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Old 2012-09-07, 16:40   Link #187
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
No. It has to do with people complaining about shoddy writing over Rin, when they should know very well that the full explanation must involve Madara. And seeing as how we haven't yet heard how Madara was involved, how can we say if the writing is bad or not?
People are annoyed not because of whether it involves Madara or not is that
A. Using Obito as Tobi is just a boring move to pull in the first place after making it a mystery all these chapters
B. The first thing he talked about was Rin so it must be a major motivation ergo people complaining about how boring that is.

Madara being involved doesn't make it less boring because Madara is always involved, him and Tobi are walking morality converters and instigated almost everything in history. People wanted something new that they didn't expect, instead they got exactly what they expected in a boring way.
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Old 2012-09-07, 16:45   Link #188
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I'm not saying this is the case, but he could have mentioned Rin merely because he was talking to Kakashi. I mean he has been screwing with Kakashi's emotions for several chapters now.
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Old 2012-09-07, 19:04   Link #189
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
No. It has to do with people complaining about shoddy writing over Rin, when they should know very well that the full explanation must involve Madara. And seeing as how we haven't yet heard how Madara was involved, how can we say if the writing is bad or not?
Because there is no possible way that Kishimoto can resolve all the inconsistencies he has now presented. He has written himself in a corner, and we will just be expected to ignore whatever contradicts the final explanation, as we have many times before.

When you have people here claiming "well Tobi couldn't have said that/done that because then the viewers would know who he is so he had to lie" then that's bad writing, unless Tobi knows he's a character in a manga.

And finally, it's just dumb. It may be just my opinion, but the general feel and writing quality of Naruto seems to have declined enormously over the years, especially since the beginning of Part 2. I mean, it's a shounen - I'm not expecting a masterpiece, I have really low expectations, and I'm just reading it for a bit of pleasure, not for enlightenment or a great story. But more and more I'm starting to wonder if Kishimoto has just jumped ship and doesn't care anymore, and maybe makes his assistants or interns write the story. Too many things happen now just for fanservice or because it would be too hard to write it in a sensible way, because it would have required planning. As a great example of this, take the recent chapter where Juugo and Suigetsu are wandering around in the middle of nowhere and JUST HAPPEN to blow a hole open into a secret Orochimaru hideout they didn't know about that JUST HAPPENS to have a scroll with forbidden knowledge so dangerous it could be used to singlehandedly rule the world or whatever.

What?

EDIT: Regarding long-haired Tobi versus short-haired Tobi, I do expect an explanation for this one, and I think I've said before that maybe long-hair is Madara and short-hair is Obito, but remember that Kisame recognized them as the same person.
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
That is the biggest problem there. If Obito acted because of emotions he should show some emotions while trying to kill his former sensei. But there's not any trace of emotion, Tobi is perfectly calm and kills people in cold blood. Tobi is the complete opposite of Sasuke, that is he shows no emotion while killing people he knows. So what did Madara and/or Zetsu do to Obito to create a cold blooded killing machine from a "good boy". Whatever happened it happened in only a couple of years, before Tobi's attack on Konoha. And Rin's death doesn't fit in that very well. Maybe Zetsu was sent out to spy on Kakashi, and he recorded the event where Rin died and Kakashi failed to protect her, and then played it back to Tobi/Obito just like he did with the Sasuke-vs-Itachi battle. But even then one would not expect that Madara appeals to Obito's emotions while he is just working hard on destroying any emotion Obito has and make of him a killing machine.

Another thing that i don't understand is how could Madara be around when Obito "died" if Madara already implanted his eyes into Nagato and died. Is Obito somehow older than Nagato? I thought Nagato was older than Obito and Kakashi, but now i can't make sense of it...
This is a good point that cannot be explained away unless Tobi was lying about Nagato for no reason or Madara wandered around eyeless for many years and Tobi took credit for what Madara did. Nagato should have been somewhere around 40, much older than Kakashi and Obito, since he belonged to Minato's generation.

Last edited by Shining Celebi; 2012-09-07 at 19:19.
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Old 2012-09-07, 19:06   Link #190
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And he's not exactly emotionless ŕ la Itachi. His attitude is arrogant, taunting--almost playful. More like Oro.
I didn't see it that way, especially against Konoha and Minato. Of course he had his "Tobi is a good boy" acting, but when he gets serious he doesn't do stupid things like those who act out of hate or are "playful" like Orochi. Orochi died because of his stupid arrogance and "playfulness", while Tobi never even risked anything until now. I know that the mask can hide his emotions, and when Sasuke kill Danzou and betrays Karin we see his eye smiling, so can show some emotions. What i mean by brain washing is that i can't really imagine Obito becoming the Tobi who did fight Minato just a couple of years after his "death" without some serious brain washing being involved. He was supposed to be just a teenager at that time, as opposed to the current events where there has already passed enough time so that a complete change in personality could happen. But i might be completely wrong if we look at how Sasuke was changed by Kishimoto in just a few years, and just recently when he met Itachi he changed again. Sasuke was a very much like madman, driven only by his hatred, his actions being dumbed down. But now he is acting in a very smart way, he is seeking answers to his questions, and it seems he is developing his evil logic about the world and people just now. So if Obito underwent all this in the same amount of time as Sasuke then it is possible that he became such cold blooded killer for whom only his plan is important. We will see Sasuke's new personality soon, if we see that he begins to act logically and so does not want to kill Naruto before everyone else he wants to kill then he really changed like Obito. In that state of his mind he shouldn't even care about Naruto, and regard Naruto just as any other obstacle he has to overcome, just like Tobi regarded Minato and Kakashi just obstacles, not even bothering telling them anything.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Madara said that he planned on having Nagato eventually resurrect him using the Rinnegan. It was never stated when he actually died.
If i remember correctly he stated that he died a short time after he unlocked the rinnegan. So it can't be that he gave away his eyes to Nagato and then lived another 10 years to meet with Obito. By the time Obito "died" Madara already had to be dead. So the timeline doesn't make sense if Tobi is just Obito. Or am i missing something (not time travel of course ) ?
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Old 2012-09-07, 19:20   Link #191
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
If i remember correctly he stated that he died a short time after he unlocked the rinnegan. So it can't be that he gave away his eyes to Nagato and then lived another 10 years to meet with Obito. By the time Obito "died" Madara already had to be dead. So the timeline doesn't make sense if Tobi is just Obito. Or am i missing something (not time travel of course ) ?
I had forgotten about this, Madara did say he died shortly after obtaining the Rinnegan. Therefore, he must have died sometime around the second war, when Nagato and Minato were very young and before Obito and Kakashi were even born.

Maybe Zetsu did it? But Zetsu didn't seem to be very important to the grand scheme of things, since if I remember correctly both halves are now dead without much fanfare.
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Old 2012-09-07, 20:06   Link #192
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so how did he fight minato with an adult body?
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Old 2012-09-07, 20:35   Link #193
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This topic is getting repetitive and boring. I'll be back when people stop complaining about things we don't even know yet.
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Old 2012-09-07, 20:46   Link #194
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This topic is getting repetitive and boring. I'll be back when people stop complaining about things we don't even know yet.
good to know
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Old 2012-09-07, 22:56   Link #195
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Madara said that he planned on having Nagato eventually resurrect him using the Rinnegan. It was never stated when he actually died.
edo madara said himself that he died shortly after achieving rinnegan, but we also know he lived a very long time so perhaps 10 or so years is a 'short' amount of time to him? we may have to settle for that reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Last time I checked, it's possible for hair to grow. Maybe I'm wrong. (let me check with wikipedia)

[EDIT] Sorry you're right. Hair doesn't grow. It turns out Shippuden Hinata (the one with long hair) is a completely separate character from the Hinata of part one (with short hair). What happened to the first Hinata ... I'm not sure.
you're not looking at the meaning behind things and simply arguing superficially. what would be the point of obito growing his hair to look like madara? to attempt to trick people into thinking he is madara, right? so then why would he cut it when he was still mascarading as madara? when he told nagato, konan, the kages, sasuke, etc... that he was madara, he had short obito style hair. given that line of thought, it is much more likely that it is 2 different people, namely the real madara as the other masked man.

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Originally Posted by Shining Celebi View Post
This is a good point that cannot be explained away unless Tobi was lying about Nagato for no reason or Madara wandered around eyeless for many years and Tobi took credit for what Madara did. Nagato should have been somewhere around 40, much older than Kakashi and Obito, since he belonged to Minato's generation.
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
If i remember correctly he stated that he died a short time after he unlocked the rinnegan. So it can't be that he gave away his eyes to Nagato and then lived another 10 years to meet with Obito. By the time Obito "died" Madara already had to be dead. So the timeline doesn't make sense if Tobi is just Obito. Or am i missing something (not time travel of course ) ?
I'm not saying this is what i believe, just a possibility since you guys are so certain it's impossible.. but how many times have we seen eye transplants with sharingan? if madara gave his rinnegan to nagato and then lived for another 10 or so years, i'm sure he could have just implanted someone else's sharingans in for the time being to train obito
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Old 2012-09-07, 23:18   Link #196
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I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet but these ideas that Madara revived or saved Obito, or that he trained Obito, or that he was the one who fought Minato don't make sense. If he was still alive when Obito died or when Minato was fighting Tobi then he would have been pretty old by that time. The Edo Tensei is supposed to revive you to the point where you died right? Well the Madara that's fighting now looks just like he did when he fought Hashirama. So if Madara was still alive when Obito died and Minato fought Tobi then by the time he "actually" died he would have been even older. I think for the Edo Tensei to have revived him to the appearance and strength he's at now he must have died not very long after he fought Hashirama.

Also I just realized that people keep talking about how Obito shouldn't have been strong enough in such a short period of time to go toe to toe with Minato. But if I remember correctly Tobi got his ass kicked in like 60 seconds in that fight.

Last edited by Chrnoebl; 2012-09-07 at 23:32.
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Old 2012-09-08, 03:56   Link #197
Ero-Senn1n
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The Edo Tensei is supposed to revive you to the point where you died right?
Most of the time yes, but there are exceptions. For example Sasori was revived in his young body, the real one. But when he died he was already in a puppet body and he was 30-40 years old.

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Also I just realized that people keep talking about how Obito shouldn't have been strong enough in such a short period of time to go toe to toe with Minato. But if I remember correctly Tobi got his ass kicked in like 60 seconds in that fight.
You should view that in a different way. Tobi was able to simultaneously fight Minato and control the Kyuubi to destroy the village and kill many people. But what is even more important is that his abilities and personality left such a strong impression on Minato that he sacrificed himself and Kushina in believing that it is necessary in order to stop Tobi at a later time. Minato viewed Tobi as the greatest threat to Konoha and the ninja world.


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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
I'm not saying this is what i believe, just a possibility since you guys are so certain it's impossible.. but how many times have we seen eye transplants with sharingan? if madara gave his rinnegan to nagato and then lived for another 10 or so years, i'm sure he could have just implanted someone else's sharingans in for the time being to train obito
I ruled that possibility out since Madara is not the type of person who would give away his most precious belonging to a small child and then let that child live alone in a war zone. Nagato almost died several times in that period, if Madara were alive he would have raised Nagato himself, making sure Nagato will resurrect him as soon as he dies. And for that he would have trained him to use the rinnegan. But it seems something happened to Madara's plan, because i don't think that Nagato starving or being killed in war zone was ever part of Madara's plan. But since Madara when resurrected was thinking that Nagato succeeded we can assume that Madara left orders about Nagato and other things to someone, to someone that cannot be Obito because of the timeline. So it's either Zetsu or Tobi is not just Obito but something more. If it was Zetsu than we have another problem: Zetsu couldn't have possibly trained and changed Obito's personality so much until the time he fights Minato. Tobi was on kage level when fighting Minato and he also controlled the kyuubi like Madara could only, so without Madara personally training him i can't see how he could be so strong.


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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
This topic is getting repetitive and boring. I'll be back when people stop complaining about things we don't even know yet.
This forum thread has already 11 pages and we are only half way to the next chapter. If Kishimoto wanted to shake up things on the naruto forums of the internet then he succeeded


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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
You just have to look at Yagura to see one of the possibilities.
I've never seen someone with a sharigan being controlled to such an extent. Also it turned out that Obito was an exceptional sharingan user, not an average one, so i don't believe that Madara could have controlled him that way. But who knows, everything is possible

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2012-09-08 at 04:19.
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Old 2012-09-08, 06:55   Link #198
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Did you guys read the title of the latest chapter???

"Why until now??"

which means, why is Obito evil now when he was a good boy(Zetsu reference)
when he was a kid??

Spoiler for Obito's a good kid:


the image above seems to be likely that Kishimoto is really planning on making TObi to be Obito,

So we should wait and see the story why Obito is evil now
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Old 2012-09-08, 09:17   Link #199
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Originally Posted by yakumo-chan View Post
So we should wait and see the story why Obito is evil now
That was JUST revealed this chapter, it was because kalashi allowed Rin to die LOL.

I notice that on one of the pages Tobi has a tattoo/seal on his leg... I wonder if that's clumsy drawing or something important...
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Old 2012-09-08, 09:32   Link #200
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That was JUST revealed this chapter, it was because kalashi allowed Rin to die LOL.

I notice that on one of the pages Tobi has a tattoo/seal on his leg... I wonder if that's clumsy drawing or something important...
i know, but i dont think thats the real reason,
i think its just the start to believe that reality hurts,
it depends on how Rin die,
maybe Rin dies in front of kakashi and he didnt help her or kakashi killed Rin
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