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Old 2012-09-08, 02:47   Link #30421
GuestSpeaker
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You realize he's being facetious, right?

Also Renall doesn't despite Ryukishi. That's silly.
Yes I do, you realise I was being facetious right? I'm silly .


I thought the kihihihi might help show that, but I guess previously people used it when they thought they were being clever and one-upping or something.

I was merely trying to emulate the witches when they point out that meta Battler is happy to blame a relative if it denies witches, while game-board Battler would hate to ever do that, and even has hated Beato for it in a meta fashion (ep 2, Jessica's room).

Joke = explained.

Last edited by GuestSpeaker; 2012-09-08 at 02:48. Reason: So the syntax matches that of the quote better
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Old 2012-09-08, 02:55   Link #30422
AuraTwilight
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I was just making sure; it's not the first time someone on this forum has dressed their points up in Witchy prose in order to be douchebags. ^_^;
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Old 2012-09-08, 02:56   Link #30423
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Oh darn, my opinion has just swung back. I finally found the page, and next to it Lambda declares "but without her (Erika) the number of people is the same as in previous games". I guess Ryu was playing a people vs something else word game and the picture was very deceptive. I liked my answer better.
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Old 2012-09-08, 02:57   Link #30424
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I was just making sure; it's not the first time someone on this forum has dressed their points up in Witchy prose in order to be douchebags.
Rest assured, all douchbaggery was intended.
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Old 2012-09-08, 05:08   Link #30425
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Oh darn, my opinion has just swung back. I finally found the page, and next to it Lambda declares "but without her (Erika) the number of people is the same as in previous games". I guess Ryu was playing a people vs something else word game and the picture was very deceptive. I liked my answer better.
There's always Kealym's answer, that Shannon and Kanon were always "2 people". They just only had 1 body in every episode but EP5, where they had 2 bodies (each had their own). It gets around "Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games." Although in the logic error Shannon + Kanon certainly seem to only contribute 1 to the person count.

I still suspect that the key to EP5's Kanon-Shannon thing has to do with the complete lack of any objective narrator.

Something interesting I just realized is that there is, IIRC, no scene in EP5 with Battler and just one ShKanon. It's not just different from the rule before, but opposite: In EP5 Battler always sees Kanon and Shannon together.

------------------------

Regarding the Kanon-Sakutaro comparison. I was reading the Maria's diary part of EP4 and realized that Maria's diary itself, as a kind of "subjective-fantasized" version of real events, actually parallels the Rokkenjima fictions pretty well. And in Maria's diary Sakutaro says all sorts of stuff even when Rosa is around. There was even a meta-discussion between Maria and Ange about it and how Ange could see the "truth" behind Maria's optimistic narrative- that Rosa was neglectful. Interesting about that is that Maria still refused to accept Ange's interpretation as "truth".

Also interesting when considering this is that Beatrice uses Ushiromiya Maria as her pen name. You could suppose that Maria's diary was even the template for the "subjective-fantasized reality" style of Beatrice's Rokkenjima stories, and that that's why she credited Maria with them.
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Old 2012-09-08, 06:19   Link #30426
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Not only that, in the manga at least they later have some reds about the 5 missing corpses being dead with their throats cut. Either it was a translation error, or for meta reasons the 5 did actually have their throats cut.
My solution to that is that during Ep 5 happened something similar to what had happened in Ep 6. George and Co were playing dead... when someone killed them for real. After all even the visual novel said something along the line of 'after they died their body was never moved' which can be interpreted as 'they died but, prior to this fact, they left the room in which they were faking being dead and met their own demise some other place'.

This however generates a problem similar to the one in Ep 3.

Someone solved the epitaph and yet murders continued. Ryukishi stated that if someone where to solve the epitaph, Yasu would have stopped killing. While in Ep 3 we can think they continued because Eva didn't openly said she solved it, in Ep 5 Battler reveals he solved the epitaph to a good bunch of people. It's unlikely Yasu doesn't know he solved it.

So we go back to two old theories:
- the epitaph wasn't solved, the solution was handed to someone
- someone else took Yasu's place and killed the people who were faking to be dead like it happens in Ep 6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
So far they have avoided really showing them together in any fashion, but have not addressed Erika not noticing this. She had the parlor locked by Kanon (but we never actually SAW Shannon outside of some imaginations of Natsuhi of her) but then they both appeared in the magic witches court (where they both conveniently said they still existed, not that they were alive)

I dunno, maybe all along Erika, or at least Bern, knew.
It's unlikely Erika knew or she would have solved the riddle in Ep 6.
And if Bern knew, as she hate losing, she would have probably supported Erika in order not to let her lose.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
So far in the manga, they have actually not been deliberately shown together in Erika's view. Except for the "the number of people in this parlor" page someone mentioned but I can't find (link?) we are only shown them actually together when Lamba first introduces the game, and that is likely not a real view of Erika's, since it is from the roof.

But even if we are never shown them together in her view in the manga, someone says in the GM they are both mentioned as being in the room.

Even ignoring that, would Erika not notice that one of them was missing?
If pieceErika has a soul of her own probably yes, if she's just... a piece, if she works like a Sim in a Sims game all she can do is to obey to orders. If none of those told her to look around if everyone was there because MetaErika already heard from the GM they were all there and she didn't bother to check probably not.

However so far no one has found a really satisfing solution for the people number problem in Ep 5 so, unless Ep 7 or 8 manga version will address to it, I fear the fandom will remain split in the various solutions proposed by fans.
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Old 2012-09-08, 07:47   Link #30427
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Well technically they were both there. When you are told "everyone is there" you expect the 17, and so therefore when people read it without taking into consideration Shkannon, then one could easily imagine Shannon was standing on one side of the room and Kanon on the other.

Quote:
And if Bern knew, as she hate losing, she would have probably supported Erika in order not to let her lose.
Bern and Lambda didn't really care particularly for Beato's heart. That's why Lambda restricted the use of Kinzo is dead before the start of the game. Despite the fact Lambda did show hints that pointed to Shannon and TMF19YA, Bern deliberately ignored it. She wrote off the phone calls as fantasy (which it may have been.) Bern saw that as long as she denied Beatrice, Beato would be tortured.

Maybe Bern's goal was not to find the answer, but to find an answer that doesn't involve Beatrice at all. Bern may have known, but she doesn't like the answer that's in the book. Bern's goal, and by acting as Bern's proxy, Erika's goal, was to find an answer in which anyone other than Beatrice (Yasu) was the culprit.

Of course then you have the way people and personalities work and then you could still pin the crime on Shannon and it still wouldn't be Beatrice.
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Old 2012-09-08, 09:33   Link #30428
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Rather beautiful, except for the fact that if we assume Ryu didn't somehow think of them as separate people and treated them thusly, the definition of died becomes even flimsier. How does it feel, to stretch the meaning of death even more than the author you despise? Do you enjoy playing witch while killing innocent servants? (kihihihi)
I would only argue that in this case it's a stretch to call them humans. But then, what is a man* but the construct that is his personality, forged strictly through interactivity with other observers? Perhaps you too could be said to be personality-dead when no one is around to see you. Rather than separate Shannon and Kanon, we could just transfer the quantum personality death property to everybody by asserting that only those individuals who are observed and acknowledged are alive.

* A miserable little pile of secrets!
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Old 2012-09-08, 10:19   Link #30429
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It gets around "Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games." Although in the logic error Shannon + Kanon certainly seem to only contribute 1 to the person count.
You are right, my answer sort of goes against my view that Shannon and Kannon are separate people (supported by the themes of the story but not by the count at the end of 6, damn ryu for playing word games with the word people), I just liked the idea if her big announcement to throw all readers off was actually her big admission to changing the people number, which would be a very Umineko-ish move. Though my word count idea does ruin the games where she says "six are dead" in red and talks about shannon and kannon, as I have already stated I believe them to be of the same body. Honestly I wouldn't have a problem with the people word play if he'd actually given more hints to allow you to define them. If he wants to define people different from humans then he can, but he should have found a way to indicate it outside the reds.

Quote:
My solution to that is that during Ep 5 happened something similar to what had happened in Ep 6. George and Co were playing dead... when someone killed them for real.
Oh I agree, I was saying that not because I was confused but to indicate to someone else their statement about no-one killing in that game had to be wrong.

Quote:
Sim in a Sims game all she can do is to obey to orders
I don't know about your Sims, but mine were always going off to make food if I didn't tell them to get in the car and go to work.

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Despite the fact Lambda did show hints that pointed to Shannon
What hints were the Shannon hints?

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And if Bern knew, as she hate losing
Remember what Lamba said at the end "oh, so I guess this time you were the villain Bern" as if she was just painted that way. Besides, as I think Ronove pointed out in the Manga, without Bern and Lamba's intervention Battler probably couldn't have solved the game, and would have just gone on slowly strangling Beatrice to death.

Quote:
A miserable little pile of secrets!
Quote Erika: Is this what the inside of a man looks like? (insert really well-drawn evil grin)

Besides, I never said humans. Furthermore, I believe the existential crisis of whether we exist or not was solved with: I think, therefore I am.

I cannot know you exist with a mind separate to mine, all I can truly know is I exist because I think even when unobserved.
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Old 2012-09-08, 10:30   Link #30430
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Then again, maybe I am being unfair. Kanon did spend eons of time saying he wasn't a human, and the yet the reds called him a person. This would all be hunky dory if then there wasn't that thing where Erika said "I am the 18th human" in red, and they said "there are only 17 people" in red.

If Erika had said "I am the 18th person" and they said "there are only 17 people", this would have kept the internal consistency of the reds I think, and made the parlor trick valid even with the picture. Unless there is evidence that human = personality and person = body I don't know about (I honestly thought it was the other way)

Regardless it was awfully convenient for Erika to include person number in her statement if she didn't know the trick. But for narrative sake I let it slide.
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Old 2012-09-08, 14:18   Link #30431
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Furthermore, I believe the existential crisis of whether we exist or not was solved with: I think, therefore I am.
Then Shannon and Kanon aren't people, because they don't have that. They're fictional entities that the single Yasu awareness pretends to be around other individuals.
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Old 2012-09-08, 15:21   Link #30432
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I don't know about your Sims, but mine were always going off to make food if I didn't tell them to get in the car and go to work.
Yes, they try to insure their survival but, if you aren't controlling them, you can even move your 'gaze' so that they're acting off screen. And somehow comparing the pieces to the sims is interesting because:

- in Sims too you don't get a view that's exactly the same as your Sim. The observation point is different, allowing you to see things he's not seeing. On the other side he also might be seeing things you're not seeing and you won't be reported about them.

- the player can see the ballons expressing the Sims dialogues and thoughts... but likely the Sims can't. Though it's not exactly the same the ballons are somewhat similar to the magic scenes in certain instances: something that doesn't exist but that's just a representation of something else.

In short SimsErika might have been in the parlor, perfectly still or searching for food or talking because the player wasn't giving her instructions and the player would see the scene from a completely different viewpoint that would allow him to see Shannon & Kanon too.

The player could check if Erika could see Shannon and Kanon only if she/he were to try to force SimErika to talk with them (which would be impossible as one of them is... well not there) or if SimErika has in her option 'show the action from Erika's viewpoint' (or something that can work in a similar way) and comparing this with the 'player vision' you can find there's nothing where Shannon or Kanon were supposed to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Bern and Lambda didn't really care particularly for Beato's heart. That's why Lambda restricted the use of Kinzo is dead before the start of the game. Despite the fact Lambda did show hints that pointed to Shannon and TMF19YA, Bern deliberately ignored it. She wrote off the phone calls as fantasy (which it may have been.) Bern saw that as long as she denied Beatrice, Beato would be tortured.

Maybe Bern's goal was not to find the answer, but to find an answer that doesn't involve Beatrice at all. Bern may have known, but she doesn't like the answer that's in the book. Bern's goal, and by acting as Bern's proxy, Erika's goal, was to find an answer in which anyone other than Beatrice (Yasu) was the culprit.

Of course then you have the way people and personalities work and then you could still pin the crime on Shannon and it still wouldn't be Beatrice.
I agree on the fact they didn't care about Beato's heart but, in Ep 6, to know it is fundamental for solving the riddle Beato posed to Erika so I think if Bern had known something about it she would have shared that info with Erika.

I think it was in Ep 5 she was allowed the luxury of ignoring Beato in favour of finding an answer she liked, but in Ep 6 after Beato solved the logic error the situation was reversed and she hadn't anymore the luxury of ignoring Beato.
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Old 2012-09-08, 18:19   Link #30433
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Yes. I kind of suspect that in EP5 Lambda let Bernkastel win in order to protect Beatrice's secret.

In EPs 1-4 the dynamic was different. Bern's goal was to win, of course, but Lambda's goal was trap Bern in the witch's game forever. There was even a point when Lambda scolded Beatrice for allowing her opposition any chance to win. And Lambda said if she were running the game she would never allow anyone a chance to win.

Of course, that doesn't seem to be the case in EP5, since she let Bern win pretty easily. But if we believe that Lambda considers truly "winning the game" to be uncovering Beatrice's secret, then she played EP5 perfectly. And of course "without love".
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Old 2012-09-08, 18:38   Link #30434
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I cannot know you exist with a mind separate to mine, all I can truly know is I exist because I think even when unobserved.
Oh really? How do you know for sure that your "thinking" isn't pre-programmed to give you the illusion of thought? (ahaha.wav)

Anyways, ignore me. Continue with the discussion guys.

Btw Renall, +1 for Castlevania reference there
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Old 2012-09-08, 18:42   Link #30435
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Someone solved the epitaph and yet murders continued. Ryukishi stated that if someone where to solve the epitaph, Yasu would have stopped killing. While in Ep 3 we can think they continued because Eva didn't openly said she solved it, in Ep 5 Battler reveals he solved the epitaph to a good bunch of people. It's unlikely Yasu doesn't know he solved it.

So we go back to two old theories:
- the epitaph wasn't solved, the solution was handed to someone
- someone else took Yasu's place and killed the people who were faking to be dead like it happens in Ep 6.
What exactly was said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria in Episode 2
;「うぅん、そんなことはない。@この碑文が解けたら、ベアトの儀式はおしまいになる。@だからもうそ れ以上、誰も死ななくなる。」\
;<真里亞
`"No, that's not true.`@` ......If you solve the epitaph, Beato's ceremony will be over.`@` So there won't be any need for more people to die."`\
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatrice in Episode 2
;「#ff0000妾は約束は守る#ffffff。@碑文の謎を解けば、黄金郷へ至ることができるだろう。 @さすれば、儀式は終わる。@それ以上、誰も死にはせぬ。」\
`"`#ff0000`I will keep my promise`#ffffff`.`@` If you solve the riddle of the epitaph, you should be able to reach the Golden Land.`@` When you have, the ceremony will be over.`@` No more people will die."`\
Note that Beatrice say "If you solve the epitaph". Episode 3 might not count because Eva & Rosa solved it. (I don't know how he could justify Episode 5, though.)
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Old 2012-09-08, 18:45   Link #30436
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Because '[Beatrice's] cerimony will be over', that does not stop 'the revenge of the man from 19 years ago', even if we assume that Yasu=MO19YA or Yasu=/=MO19YA, then it's still possible for deaths to occur after the epitaph is solved.
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Old 2012-09-08, 19:05   Link #30437
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
What exactly was said?





Note that Beatrice say "If you solve the epitaph". Episode 3 might not count because Eva & Rosa solved it. (I don't know how he could justify Episode 5, though.)
Just a tip:

碑文の謎を解けば

The literal translation of this is "if solve the epitaph". The 'YOU' is just thrown in to make it sound better in a translation.

解けば = If solve
碑文の謎 = epitaph's riddle
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Old 2012-09-08, 19:42   Link #30438
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Is there a site somewhere with organized summaries/spoilers of the last couple games?

Seems like a season 2 of the anime is unlikely so I kinda want to know how this ends...
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Old 2012-09-08, 19:54   Link #30439
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Then Shannon and Kanon aren't people, because they don't have that
Unfortunately it is impossible for you to prove they can't think individual thoughts separate to yours, it isn't I think therefore you're not.
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Old 2012-09-08, 19:54   Link #30440
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Honestly, reading them yourself is the best way to go. So many details are up to speculation that there's not much a summary can do for you.
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