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Old 2006-01-04, 08:03   Link #201
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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And I still go by my stand that testing a grandmaster plan for the entire human race is . If you still think that it should...

It's been advertised that it had already so many years of testing or whatever behind it. But since Fukuda screwed it up big time, then we could safely assume that it was never tested at all and so leaves Dullindal as the Big Brother of the Entire Universe, conveniently painting him as the TEH EVILNESS PERSONIFIEDONEONEONEONEONE~~~!!!111 Lacus magically declared him to be.

I'll just let that "personal" or whatever attack of yours slide.
The only known test subject of Destiny Plan is Shinn.

What does that tell us about Gilbert's plan? And what does that tell us about Shinn?

I leave it to you.

On the other hand, if you don't mind, may you read my post here?
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...9&postcount=67
I concluded that the Destiny Plan doesn't keep peace at all. The armies do.

Further more, if there HAS been extensive tests done on Destiny Plan, Gilbert would have shown these model communities as shining examples, rather than using a silly cartoon, to sell his plan.

Any Global Plan will stop wars. I can have a "Vallen" plan, which is a Plan to banned green peas from being a legal food. To enforce the "Green Peas Plan", I will have to conquer all nations and place secret police in every street. Nations that opposes the plan will sadly have to be destroyed, since their lives are less important than the billions I will be saving. By having the world under my benevolent rule, people will no longer be threatened by the poison that was green peas. And guess what? Wars will stop.

And since wars will CETAINLY stop (with there being only one nation in the world), it must be because my plan worked. Green peas WERE the source of all wars. Aren't you glad I forcefully conquered everyone to teach you the way to peace?
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Old 2006-01-04, 08:05   Link #202
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
@ Anh_Minh

Your belief that Kira and Lacus are the perfect examples of utter righteousness in the world in spite of all the loop holes they did in GSD is either you're blind to or are just blatantly ignoring it.
I never said they were perfect. But I still don't consider genocide as acceptable. And if soldiers have to be killed to stop it - well, tough.

And Dullindal is certainly guilty of attempted genocide. You don't believe he had a hand in the Junius 7 drop? Fine. Just know that I'm of a different opinion there.

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And I still go by my stand that testing a grandmaster plan for the entire human race is . If you still think that it should...
And that genocide is perfectly justified if you have some grand idea on how the world could be perfect?

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It's been advertised that it had already so many years of testing or whatever behind it.
Yeah? So they found (or founded) some community of volunteers to get their jobs chosen through genetic testing and spent years studying what kind of society it built? Then why was the Destiny Plan such a surprise? And if it works so well, why did he find it needful to force people into it at gunpoint?


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I'll just let that "personal" or whatever attack of yours slide.
What attack?
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Old 2006-01-04, 08:47   Link #203
Eidolon Sniper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
The only known test subject of Destiny Plan is Shinn.
Really? I didn't know that. All I know is that Shinn is part of Gilbert's plan, not part of the Destiny Plan. Unless of course, Dullindal magically declares him to be the Destiny Plan, but still...that only works with Lacus...

We had no idea WTF the Destiny Plan was all about until Dullindal magically declared it sitting on his pretty white throne inside his spanking new Messiah.

Quote:
On the other hand, if you don't mind, may you read my post here?
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...9&postcount=67
I concluded that the Destiny Plan doesn't keep peace at all. The armies do.
And I didn't say that the Destiny Plan is going to keep peace.... And what if the armies themselves start the war? That would be such an irony then.

Quote:
Further more, if there HAS been extensive tests done on Destiny Plan, Gilbert would have shown these model communities as shining examples, rather than using a silly cartoon, to sell his plan.
Too bad he has Fukuda and his Goddess Lacus working against him. And the Destiny Plan was introduced when? 3 or 4 epsisodes left till PHASE 50? Do the math.

Quote:
Any Global Plan will stop wars. I can have a "Vallen" plan, which is a Plan to banned green peas from being a legal food. To enforce the "Green Peas Plan", I will have to conquer all nations and place secret police in every street. Nations that opposes the plan will sadly have to be destroyed, since their lives are less important than the billions I will be saving. By having the world under my benevolent rule, people will no longer be threatened by the poison that was green peas. And guess what? Wars will stop.

And since wars will CETAINLY stop (with there being only one nation in the world), it must be because my plan worked. Green peas WERE the source of all wars. Aren't you glad I forcefully conquered everyone to teach you the way to peace?
And how would you know the wars will stop permanently? Given that the wars would be stopped for at least 50 years or so before they start tiring of not eating green peas and launch a full scale massive war at your declaration. Not all plans are effective for eternity.

Given the enrtire world tires of the Destiny Plan, evil genius Dullindal might already be creating another backup plan in its wake, so that he could still continue "controlling" the world and preserve its "without war" ideal.

VS Kira and Lacus choice of a free world wherein a slightest disturbance in the Force could awaken the terrible Jedi Knights from their deep slumber and Strike Freedom, Infinite Justice, or Destiny their way to a bright and happy, peaceful world every 2 years or so (given if Goddess Lacus suddenly realizes her Lacus dust spiels aren't working on the dirty world of PLANT and earth politics aka Lacus suddenly WTF in the believable world of the CE [hopefully])...the CE population do not want any more wars, they are tired of it, and to them, Dullindal's Destiny Plan was the better alternative...

@ Anh_Minh

I am not saying that I don't believe Dullindal was behind it all along. What I'm trying to point out was that his character was handled very badly and the only evidence pointing out to his evilness was only shown in magazine interviews, which gave us wonderful articles wherein AsuCaga< ShinnLuna and Mwu = Neo. If you believe in them, then... I mean, for all we know, Dullindal was just a "victim" of the "bad guy syndrome" wherein the stereotypical beady eyed person is almost always pointed out as the entire series' villain of villains.

See and read: ==> Dullindal's evil wasn't handled properly by Fukuda, and his Destiny Plan was introduced akwardly, and at the same time, it was in Goddess' Lacus eyes, and so it has to be declared totally and unbelievably evil. <== There, get it?

Destiny Plan is NOT about genocide. Where the heck did you pick this up?! As for his WMD, the explanation could be found in the emboldened or whatever phrase above this one.

The attack or whatever is the "especially since you don't really seem to understand me" thing. I don't know what you were trying to hint at, so I labeled it as attack or whatever. If you didn't mean anything by it, then sorry if I offended you or something.
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Old 2006-01-04, 09:55   Link #204
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
I am not saying that I don't believe Dullindal was behind it all along. What I'm trying to point out was that his character was handled very badly and the only evidence pointing out to his evilness was only shown in magazine interviews, which gave us wonderful articles wherein AsuCaga< ShinnLuna and Mwu = Neo. If you believe in them, then... I mean, for all we know, Dullindal was just a "victim" of the "bad guy syndrome" wherein the stereotypical beady eyed person is almost always pointed out as the entire series' villain of villains.
It may have been badly presented, but it's pretty much canon he's behind that stuff. That's the situation I'm dealing with.

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See and read: ==> Dullindal's evil wasn't handled properly by Fukuda, and his Destiny Plan was introduced akwardly, and at the same time, it was in Goddess' Lacus eyes, and so it has to be declared totally and unbelievably evil. <== There, get it?
Smileys've never struck me as a good substitute for actual words in the presentation of ideas.

Just a reminder: Lacus is just a character, same as Dully. The writers decided Dully would be the villain. (And, judging by his character design, decided so early on.)

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Destiny Plan is NOT about genocide. Where the heck did you pick this up?! As for his WMD, the explanation could be found in the emboldened or whatever phrase above this one.
I don't separate the ends from the means. Genocide may not have been the goal of Destiny Plan, but it was certainly part of it. And I refuse to ignore it on the basis of Dully's "good intentions".

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The attack or whatever is the "especially since you don't really seem to understand me" thing. I don't know what you were trying to hint at, so I labeled it as attack or whatever. If you didn't mean anything by it, then sorry if I offended you or something.
I'm not hinting at anything. It's just that I get the feeling we aren't talking about the same thing. Could be a failure of my writing. Or of your reading. Or maybe you do understand me and I don't understand you. Or both. Who knows?
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Old 2006-01-04, 11:52   Link #205
Crusader
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My biggest gripe with the destiny plan is this...

If it does indeed rely on your genes, then that would make most black people work hard larbour type stuff, Since Black people's genes make them physically stronger than most other races.... Also becuase During slave times they were bread for strength too. THen also That would make most Asian people deal with technology an dother things, because thier genese make shtem slightly smarter than other races...

so in a way this could sort of be another way of segregation, or pointing out the differences between races...

then again my theory could only be experimineted if Dully was successfull, but he wasn't therefore my gripe is quelled.
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Old 2006-01-04, 11:58   Link #206
Demongod86
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@ Crusader: that's actually a reason the DP would WORK. Think of it...most african americans ARE doing physical labor/bodyguarding/martial arts stuff, most asians ARE doing technological stuff, and Russians are split up into business and engineering and some mathematics ALREADY. A lot of what we do IS hereditary. The fact is that once it becomes forced, people won't like it as much.

It's psychological: people don't like to be told what to do.
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Old 2006-01-04, 12:09   Link #207
Crusader
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I don't agree with everything you said, but you have a point to some extent.
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Old 2006-01-04, 12:21   Link #208
Moon Eclipse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
That'd be unhealthy.

And yet what was shown was that genes were to be trusted more than achievements. Haven't you watched Gil's cartoon? Even if you work hard to get your job, and prove you're good at it - his goons may come to take you away "because your genes dictate it".

Your point? I know we have some tolerance for damage. But the truth remains we are far more likely to mutate into a handicapped person than into a genius.

Because that's where he wants to be? Besides, how are you going to say where he's "best"? What does it mean to be a better philosopher than mathematician? There is no accurate way to measure your greatness at either, and even if there was, you'd be comparing the proverbial apples with oranges.

That's a pretty big IF. In fact, let's face it, it's a pretty impossible situation to have.

What, Destiny Plan is going to eliminate car accidents? Pull the other one, it's got a bell on. You seem to have a problem with the fact that "completely controlled evironments" are impossible.

It is, however, possible to control the environment very tightly. But the more control you want, the more ressources you need. It can't be done on the scale necessited by the Destiny Plan.

Read the part with "he limps for the rest of his life". Heck, let's just say the car takes his legs off. What then?

I know that. But it doesn't adress my point at all that relying solely on genes is unreliable compared to direct observation of a subject.

Their genetic potential means nothing if they don't use it. Which do you think is the true genius? The one with the best genes who never even learn how to read, or the one with slightly lesser genes who creates a new physics theory? Would you give a Nobel Prize to the former?

Nowadays, we have more freedoms, yet fewer wars than in centuries past.

That's because we have more leeway. We don't need to have so much control. We take masses of kids and try to make citizens out of them. We don't try to decide what their jobs are going to be before they're even born.
Unhealthy for who and how? And my point is he didn't do that now did he?

In the cartoon they took a person that was not the best for job, removed him from office and replaced him with someone better.

The truth remains the it's called evolution not de-evolution.

I draw, that doesn't mean I'm as good a drawer as I am at let's say math. I like to draw, but that doesn't make me an artist. Even in something as subjective as art there are standards to judge the "greatness" of an artist. It's called the nine gates of art. So you can judge if someone's a good at something. You can also judge if they're better at other things as well.

Nothing is impossible, that you would hide behind it means you no longer look towards the progress of making that which is deemed "impossible" possible. There were a lot of things that were thought be "impossibilities" in the past that are now commonly accept as easily acchieved

"It can't" is just an escape for those that don't want to try.

limps can be replaced through transplantation. Even by todays standard we can replace or reattach some limbs that have been served. The Cosmic Era seems to have far more advancements in medical technology than we do.

Again, it's not solely nature. It's nature in a controlled nuturing environment

The idea is that both learned to read an write. The idea is both were taught the same. What makes them different are their genes. The person with genetic genius will far surpass the person without it.

In the pasted 100 years more people have died because of war than in another other century of the passed. The Rawanda killing fields saw more death than the massacre of Adolf Hitler's reign of terror. Our society turns out more sociopathic criminals than the historical societies of Rome, China, Japan, Greece.

We take children and neglect them to the point that they develop social disorders, and give them the proper psychological motivation to carry out acts like colombin
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Old 2006-01-04, 14:25   Link #209
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
Unhealthy for who and how?
Not enough genetic variation. Ever heard of the term "consanguinity"?

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And my point is he didn't do that now did he?
And a stupid point it was.

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In the cartoon they took a person that was not the best for job, removed him from office and replaced him with someone better.
But they explained that "better" was based on genes rather thn accomplishments.

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The truth remains the it's called evolution not de-evolution.
Exactly what do you mean by "it"?

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I draw, that doesn't mean I'm as good a drawer as I am at let's say math. I like to draw, but that doesn't make me an artist. Even in something as subjective as art there are standards to judge the "greatness" of an artist. It's called the nine gates of art. So you can judge if someone's a good at something. You can also judge if they're better at other things as well.
When I was a kid, I had near perfect grades in both maths and physics. Who could say in which I was "better"?

And while I didn't have perfect grades in French, I was at the top of my class. Does that tall you I wasn't as good in French as in science, or that the way we were graded was different?

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Nothing is impossible, that you would hide behind it means you no longer look towards the progress of making that which is deemed "impossible" possible. There were a lot of things that were thought be "impossibilities" in the past that are now commonly accept as easily acchieved
There is nothing to indicate that such feats of control are possible in the CE universe. Or that they wouldn't make the subjects crazy. (Just look at the extendeds...)

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"It can't" is just an escape for those that don't want to try.
I can't turn off the sun. I'm pretty sure it's not just a matter of "trying".

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limps can be replaced through transplantation. Even by todays standard we can replace or reattach some limbs that have been served. The Cosmic Era seems to have far more advancements in medical technology than we do.
And while one twin is in the hospital relearning to wiggle his toes, the other's training.

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Again, it's not solely nature. It's nature in a controlled nuturing environment
And I'm:
- having serious doubt on the feasibility of controlling the environments (remember that you'll need a lot of them, because you'll want many different people, and different people react differently to the same environment)
- not sold on the uselessness of looking at the results of your genes and "controled environment", and instead just looking at the genes.

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The idea is that both learned to read an write. The idea is both were taught the same. What makes them different are their genes. The person with genetic genius will far surpass the person without it.
You don't get it, do you? Genius isn't an a priori thing. Even if you clone a genius, the clone won't be a genius until and unless he actually does somethign deserving of the name, in the same way a murderer's clone won't be a murderer until and unless he actually murders somebody.

It's the same for less impressive statuses such as competence. You aren't competent at your job until and unless you're doing your job competently. And yet Destiny Plan would grant you the status solely on the basis of your genes. Of some obscure notion of "potential".

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In the pasted 100 years more people have died because of war than in another other century of the passed. The Rawanda killing fields saw more death than the massacre of Adolf Hitler's reign of terror. Our society turns out more sociopathic criminals than the historical societies of Rome, China, Japan, Greece.
That would be because we have more people, and pay more attention to such thing. Cucifixion is an atroicty nowadays, not a normal punishment.

I'll base myself on something I know better than the history of Rwanda. Not that it's saying much. Western Europe. Compare the medieval times, with its constant warfare at both the international and local warfare, and now, where, despite being much more free, don't spend all of our time making war on each other.

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We take children and neglect them to the point that they develop social disorders, and give them the proper psychological motivation to carry out acts like colombin
Or we've got so much leisure time to think about things we actually came up with the notion of social disorder. Whatever.
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Old 2006-01-04, 16:45   Link #210
Moon Eclipse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Not enough genetic variation. Ever heard of the term "consanguinity"?

And a stupid point it was.

But they explained that "better" was based on genes rather thn accomplishments.


Exactly what do you mean by "it"?

When I was a kid, I had near perfect grades in both maths and physics. Who could say in which I was "better"?

And while I didn't have perfect grades in French, I was at the top of my class. Does that tall you I wasn't as good in French as in science, or that the way we were graded was different?

There is nothing to indicate that such feats of control are possible in the CE universe. Or that they wouldn't make the subjects crazy. (Just look at the extendeds...)

I can't turn off the sun. I'm pretty sure it's not just a matter of "trying".

And while one twin is in the hospital relearning to wiggle his toes, the other's training.

And I'm:
- having serious doubt on the feasibility of controlling the environments (remember that you'll need a lot of them, because you'll want many different people, and different people react differently to the same environment)
- not sold on the uselessness of looking at the results of your genes and "controled environment", and instead just looking at the genes.

You don't get it, do you? Genius isn't an a priori thing. Even if you clone a genius, the clone won't be a genius until and unless he actually does somethign deserving of the name, in the same way a murderer's clone won't be a murderer until and unless he actually murders somebody.

It's the same for less impressive statuses such as competence. You aren't competent at your job until and unless you're doing your job competently. And yet Destiny Plan would grant you the status solely on the basis of your genes. Of some obscure notion of "potential".

That would be because we have more people, and pay more attention to such thing. Cucifixion is an atroicty nowadays, not a normal punishment.

I'll base myself on something I know better than the history of Rwanda. Not that it's saying much. Western Europe. Compare the medieval times, with its constant warfare at both the international and local warfare, and now, where, despite being much more free, don't spend all of our time making war on each other.

Or we've got so much leisure time to think about things we actually came up with the notion of social disorder. Whatever.
That doesn't apply to genetically perfect beings. Consangity only applies because we're genetically imperfect and we need large genetic diversity for those things to be covered. The idea is hole in one genetic strain will be covered by another genetic strain that may be holes in areas the first genetic strain have covered.

The point is that he didn't want to create the perfect person to replace people. He wanted to create the perfect system in order to allow people to satified even with their genetic diversity and flaws.

Your idea is that things going from good to bad. But things evolved for the "better" thus it's called evolution not de-evolution.

Which one does he get 100% in and which one does he only get95% in? If you hypothetically put in him advanced course which one does he do better in? If you put him in higher education courses which one does he do better in?

You were best in your class in french. Were you the best in you class in science? If not even if you're good a science, there's someone better. You're going to french because that's where you can help the world the best since everyone seems to suck there, you will benifit the world the best by helping expand a field which is underdeveloped.

Obviously Gil didn't agree with you our he wouldn't have tried.

Turning off the sun? That's easy, just artifically burn it out. The science if something you had to develop by trying

Regardless of how you feel, people and society try to control however much they can of their environment. Parents try to put their children in the right "evironment" make the proper home "envirmonment" to to raise them.

But naturally agressive child because he has a body that produces too much testosterin. Will still be naturally agressive because his body produces too much testosterin even as a clone. People will elavated chemical imbalances that causes conditions will still have those conditions as a clone.

If you raise the same genetic copy in the exact same conditions and teach him in the exact same way. Nature and controlled nuture.

The Destiny plan talked about genes being a factor. I never heard anything to make me think that it excluded all other factors. To put people in the jobs they are best suited to do based on genes. I think Gil's smart enough to know people still need training. If as in the extended they can manipulate memory. Then they can change your conditioning as a person. Your 'nuturing'.

The is more order in this day and ages Europe than the middle ages. People in power aren't as free to abuse their power as they were in the middle ages. War is more controlled
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Old 2006-01-04, 17:08   Link #211
Demongod86
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Any all-encompassing system that tells people how to live their lives does NOT work.

This is why capitalism is so successful, and why the Chinese are successful because they are capitalists in communist disguises. This is why Chinese people as a whole are so successful...they know the meaning of HARD WORK. But off of that topic...

Look, I'm no biology expert here, but how the hell would the Destiny Plan even read genetics to see where everyone goes? Genetics determine sex, height, eye color, hair color, metabolic rate, some other stuff as well, but nothing that has to do with what position you would be best in...

And in the end, the DP would be no better than communism...from each by his ability, to each according to his need.

GUYS, NEWSFUCKINGFLASH: IT DOESN'T WORK.

Look at Russia. I immigrated from there because my parents had to stay in line for an hour and a half to get tomatoes! My dad one day chucked one against the wall and said: "I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE HERE"

Look at Vietnam. Sure, North Vietnam won the war...now the place is in poverty, so I'm going to take this opportunity to point and laugh at the communistic system. Mao ZeDong...great leap forward...MASS STARVATION!!!!

Or you can go read 1984, or Brave New World, or my favorite one, Animal Farm!! (Durandall's Destiny Plan portrayed in another amusing manner!).

Guess what? Kira and Lacus were right. Perhaps they didn't have concrete proof, but intuition told them to stop Darth Gichou. I'm telling you, do not underestimate the powers of the light side. How else do you think Kira is able to deflect beam shots with his saber?
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Old 2006-01-04, 19:13   Link #212
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
That doesn't apply to genetically perfect beings. Consangity only applies because we're genetically imperfect and we need large genetic diversity for those things to be covered. The idea is hole in one genetic strain will be covered by another genetic strain that may be holes in areas the first genetic strain have covered.
"Perfection" doesn't exist. With that little variation, even without genetic defects lying in wait, all it'd take would be for one virus to mutate the wrong way to wipe out the human race. Not smart.

Besides, you're the one who think genes are oh so important to what kind of individual you'll get. So I ask you: in your society of genius singers/politicians/programmers/pilots... Who's going to grow the food?

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The point is that he didn't want to create the perfect person to replace people.
Wasn't trying to suggest he was. Maybe I was misleading? What I meant was that, given an embryo, making it grow into someone who'll want to do a specific job, and be the best person for it, is going, even with genetic predispositions, to take control so ridiculously absolute it's going to dwarf anything Hibiki might have tried.

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He wanted to create the perfect system in order to allow people to satified even with their genetic diversity and flaws.

Your idea is that things going from good to bad. But things evolved for the "better" thus it's called evolution not de-evolution.
What things? When did I express such an idea?

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Which one does he get 100% in and which one does he only get95% in? If you hypothetically put in him advanced course which one does he do better in? If you put him in higher education courses which one does he do better in?
What are you talking about?

Also, newsflash: one "higher education course" isn't the same as another, even if they're both about the same subject. Results have to do with factors which may have little to do with the student's talent for the course. Example: I had an algebra teacher with an accent. It bothered me much, it bothered others little. It had nothing to do with our aptitudes with algebra.

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You were best in your class in french. Were you the best in you class in science?
Actually, I was. Then what? Besides, you're totally missing the point.

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If not even if you're good a science, there's someone better. You're going to french because that's where you can help the world the best since everyone seems to suck there, you will benifit the world the best by helping expand a field which is underdeveloped.

Obviously Gil didn't agree with you our he wouldn't have tried.
That's but one reason I think his Destiny Plan was a crock.

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Turning off the sun? That's easy, just artifically burn it out. The science if something you had to develop by trying
"Artificially burn it out". How? Don't forget there are ressource constraints (do you have any idea how much it costs just to send something up there?) and obvious time constraints: I won't live forever.

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Regardless of how you feel, people and society try to control however much they can of their environment. Parents try to put their children in the right "evironment" make the proper home "envirmonment" to to raise them.
Yeah, but they (generally) have more leeway than Dully. They don't take a look at a pregnancy test and arbitrarilly decide their kid'll be history teacher and nothing else. Besides, they adapt themselves to the kids they have (or try to). They look at their results in different subjects. At their tastes. Their behaviors. They don't decide a priori.

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But naturally agressive child because he has a body that produces too much testosterin.
Explain female murderers...

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Will still be naturally agressive because his body produces too much testosterin even as a clone. People will elavated chemical imbalances that causes conditions will still have those conditions as a clone.
Yeah, nothing to do with the diet. Or the conditions of the pregnancy. Or the circumstances of the life. The people they meet. Also, why don't we just jail hormonally imbalanced people and save ourselves the grief?

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If you raise the same genetic copy in the exact same conditions and teach him in the exact same way. Nature and controlled nuture.
"exact same conditions". So he's going to meet clones of the people the original met? Clones who will also have been raised in the exact same way as their progenitors? And the weather will be carbon copy of what it was during the original's life? Also, tell me how useful it is to have, say, relativity discovered twice in the exact same way?


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The Destiny plan talked about genes being a factor. I never heard anything to make me think that it excluded all other factors. To put people in the jobs they are best suited to do based on genes.
And that's where it goes wrong. (Well, actually, to me it started getting wrong when Gil used mass murder for PR and giant death ray threat as a selling point. But apparently some people think it's ok because of his intentions, so who knows?)

What's the best job one's suited for? It doesn't depend solely, or even mostly, on genes.

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I think Gil's smart enough to know people still need training. If as in the extended they can manipulate memory. Then they can change your conditioning as a person. Your 'nuturing'.
The extended needed training too. And even so, they all looked mentally deficient.

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The is more order in this day and ages Europe than the middle ages. People in power aren't as free to abuse their power as they were in the middle ages. War is more controlled
We're still more free than when the top of the chain of command had the right of life or death over those at the bottom. And we have less war. Which disprove your point that freedom was a breeding ground for war, hate, and crime.
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Old 2006-01-04, 20:50   Link #213
dom33
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Join Date: Dec 2005
my thoughts on the entire show.
1-18 the best section of this show cause it had the drama and war feel gundam is legendary for.
19-30 giving way to evil plot devices and reused scenes.
31-38 war feel and drama returns less reused scenes.
39-50 the staff gave up telling a decent story,plot holes,plot devices,and reused scenes take over.
what caused gsd to fail was lack of planning and charecters taking 180 turns.
ex1:neo
this one is obvious once he lost his mask he magicly became mu again.
ex2:dullinil
another obvious one he suddenly became evil.
ex3:shinn
from the the best pilot in c.e. to someone who lose by being plot deviced.
another thing is obvious charecter shields(don't need to explain this)
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Old 2006-01-04, 21:43   Link #214
Demongod86
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How was Shinn EVER the best pilot in CE? Recall in ep 8 when Athrun/Yzak trashed chaos he said "O_o so this is the power of the Jachin Due pilots!" so there he already admitted that he wasn't as good. Shinn never fought Athrun gundam v. gundam until the end, in which Athrun SOUNDLY won both times. Shinn beat Kira because Kira was doing everything BUT fighting him. He was sniping grunts, IMing the archangel, trying to high-tail it outta there, hyperventilating, etc... and even later, Kira says it was just a fluke. And then Kira SHOWED that it was a fluke when he hands down pwnt Shinn in ep 42. Shinn won ONE gundam v. gundam fight against Kira/Athrun COMBINED. Let's count Shinn's encounters vs. Kira/Athrun in gundams

1) Ep 24, Kira v. Shinn: Kira/Athrun: 1-0-0, Shinn 0-1-0
2) Ep 28, Kira v. Shinn: Kira/Athrun: 1-0-1, Shinn 0-1-1
3) Ep 32, Kira v. Shinn (for that brief moment), Kira/Athrun: 1-0-2, Shinn: 0-1-2
4) Ep 34, Kira v. Shinn (Ugh) Kira/Athrun: 1-1-2, Shinn: 1-1-2
5) Ep 42, Kira v. Shinn (more consistency this time): Kira/Athrun: 2-1-2, Shinn: 1-2-2
6) Ep 43, Athrun v. Shinn, Kira/Athrun: 3-1-2, Shinn: 1-3-2
7) Kira v. Shinn ep 50 (brief skirmish, Shinn gets trapped by dragoons then railgunned like a bitch): Kira/Athrun: 4-1-2, Shinn 1-4-2
8) Athrun v. Shinn ep 50: Kira/Athrun: 5-1-2, Shinn 1-5-2

Wins are counted as 3 points, losses as 0, ties as 1. Shinn final score: 5 points. Kira/Athrun combined score: 17 points. Even if you'd take one third of that, Shinn is still outscored. Best pilot in CE my ass. He won ONE gundam v. gundam fight against them. If you can call Shinn better compared to all of the times he's lost (5), well...

About Neo/Mwu: there was an explanation. He had his memories bottled up, and he regained them.

About Durandall: I'll give you credit there. He had me on the fence up to ep 36 (I could understand ep 34's orders...but then once he started saying "Can I rely on you to deal with Athrun," started BSing Shinn, and said "now you disappear for sure, Lacusu Clyne", I said screw him. Very abrupt too.

And once again about Shinn: you're saying he was plot deviced all those times, but won fair and square the one time he beat Kira. I say Kira got haxed once, then won on him being the better pilot. Tell me, what would have happened with Shinn in ep 28 had Athrun not cut Kira off? Bulky blast Impulse vs. supermaneuverable Freedom? Please remember that Mwu in Launcher Strike got beat by Rau in a CGUE melee style. Ep 32 Kira wasn't after Shinn's blood anyway, but I counted that for Shinn's benefit anyway.

So tell me, does it make more sense to say that there was one plot device used (oh, and a mighty plot device it was INDEED! Kira DID have to get Strike Freedom SOMEHOW, correct?) as opposed to Shinn losing and staying with Impluse/Destiny...

You see, Shinn's losses weren't because he had to upgrade to a new gundam. If there was no SF coming, do you honestly think Fukuda would have trashed the Freedom? Odds are, he would have Shinn get Destiny, go rushing madly at Kira, just for Kira to pwn him again anyway (is there REALLY that much of a difference between Freedom and SF aside from dragoons/beamshields?)

And let's not forget that Shinn was getting absolutely owned in space. Okay, I'm going to rewatch final plus just so I can find the moment for you when Shinn is getting owned by dragoons.

Edit: Crap, final plus is on my laptop...don't have it on me right now...someone do me a favor and find me the time that Shinn turns on WoL, rushes at Kira, starts dodging dragoons, then catches railgun to the face before Rey steps in and tries to divert Kira?
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Old 2006-01-04, 22:46   Link #215
Moon Eclipse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
"Perfection" doesn't exist. With that little variation, even without genetic defects lying in wait, all it'd take would be for one virus to mutate the wrong way to wipe out the human race. Not smart.

Besides, you're the one who think genes are oh so important to what kind of individual you'll get. So I ask you: in your society of genius singers/politicians/programmers/pilots... Who's going to grow the food?

Wasn't trying to suggest he was. Maybe I was misleading? What I meant was that, given an embryo, making it grow into someone who'll want to do a specific job, and be the best person for it, is going, even with genetic predispositions, to take control so ridiculously absolute it's going to dwarf anything Hibiki might have tried.

What things? When did I express such an idea?

What are you talking about?

Also, newsflash: one "higher education course" isn't the same as another, even if they're both about the same subject. Results have to do with factors which may have little to do with the student's talent for the course. Example: I had an algebra teacher with an accent. It bothered me much, it bothered others little. It had nothing to do with our aptitudes with algebra.

Actually, I was. Then what? Besides, you're totally missing the point.

That's but one reason I think his Destiny Plan was a crock.

"Artificially burn it out". How? Don't forget there are ressource constraints (do you have any idea how much it costs just to send something up there?) and obvious time constraints: I won't live forever.

Yeah, but they (generally) have more leeway than Dully. They don't take a look at a pregnancy test and arbitrarilly decide their kid'll be history teacher and nothing else. Besides, they adapt themselves to the kids they have (or try to). They look at their results in different subjects. At their tastes. Their behaviors. They don't decide a priori.

Explain female murderers...

Yeah, nothing to do with the diet. Or the conditions of the pregnancy. Or the circumstances of the life. The people they meet. Also, why don't we just jail hormonally imbalanced people and save ourselves the grief?

"exact same conditions". So he's going to meet clones of the people the original met? Clones who will also have been raised in the exact same way as their progenitors? And the weather will be carbon copy of what it was during the original's life? Also, tell me how useful it is to have, say, relativity discovered twice in the exact same way?

And that's where it goes wrong. (Well, actually, to me it started getting wrong when Gil used mass murder for PR and giant death ray threat as a selling point. But apparently some people think it's ok because of his intentions, so who knows?)

What's the best job one's suited for? It doesn't depend solely, or even mostly, on genes.

The extended needed training too. And even so, they all looked mentally deficient.

We're still more free than when the top of the chain of command had the right of life or death over those at the bottom. And we have less war. Which disprove your point that freedom was a breeding ground for war, hate, and crime.
Perfection does not exist yet.

The genius farmer

Huh? ::

In other words you had a bad teacher cause he inhibited the learning abilities of his students through his own failures to communicate properly and understandable. Teacher should be able to speak audibly

Maybe you should teach science and french Job a french scientist?

If we had th knowledge to, you know they'd do it. If you knew 100% your kid had the makings to become the next Morzart you'd put music the second he was born.

PMS very genetic

That's a good idea, you should do a study and publish your findings

It's like having the noble prize awarded for game theory discovered at the same time by two different people.

It does if gene's is all the seperates the result. If gene's is the only thing different then that's the deciding factor.

They were made mentally and physically defecient on purpose so they could be controlled easier

The bottom is still controlled by the top. The difference is the bottom has slightly more control of who's on top. There go less freedom.

@demon

The failure of communism isn't a failure because the systems was faulty. It was because the people running the system were. The thing with capitalism is that it collapses to under the same faultiness but it run with that inherant fault as it's source of power. Kinda the way the body needs air to survive, yet air the geastest source of cellular degradation.

We're at an impass. Neither of us will accept of even acknowledge the views of the other, so I'm just going to call this one dead. You don't believe it works. I'm saying it can in theory. We're never going to see eye to eye on this. And right now the more I argue the more cynical and dismissive I'll become so let's just stop here
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Old 2006-01-04, 22:56   Link #216
Owaranai Destiny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
How was Shinn EVER the best pilot in CE? Recall in ep 8 when Athrun/Yzak trashed chaos he said "O_o so this is the power of the Jachin Due pilots!" so there he already admitted that he wasn't as good. Shinn never fought Athrun gundam v. gundam until the end, in which Athrun SOUNDLY won both times. Shinn beat Kira because Kira was doing everything BUT fighting him. He was sniping grunts, IMing the archangel, trying to high-tail it outta there, hyperventilating, etc... and even later, Kira says it was just a fluke. And then Kira SHOWED that it was a fluke when he hands down pwnt Shinn in ep 42. Shinn won ONE gundam v. gundam fight against Kira/Athrun COMBINED. Let's count Shinn's encounters vs. Kira/Athrun in gundams
We're not talking about who's the best...And your way of determining who exactly is the best isn't appropriate either. The one with the plot device wins. Simple as that. You need to stop insulting characters you obviously hate, so stop flitting from liking to hating Shinn. (railgunned like a bitch...Make up your mind, man.) Kira's excuse for losing to Shinn sounded bad enough, so don't make it sound worse. He shouldn't have said that he "didn't know whether to fight ZAFT or not", not especially when ZAFT was hunting them down like predators to a prey. Hadn't he already fought ZAFT before? And yet here he is, talking about the reason of his defeat being unwilling to fight them....


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About Neo/Mwu: there was an explanation. He had his memories bottled up, and he regained them.
Regarding Mwu/Neo, I would like to say that this is anime, so it could be very easy for him to regain his memories. Bringing him back wasn't a very good idea, though, since they never really thoroughly explained how he survived. Then again, We've only got the three musketeers to concentrate on.

Quote:
About Durandall: I'll give you credit there. He had me on the fence up to ep 36 (I could understand ep 34's orders...but then once he started saying "Can I rely on you to deal with Athrun," started BSing Shinn, and said "now you disappear for sure, Lacusu Clyne", I said screw him. Very abrupt too.
Abrupt, yes, but it seems that your reason for disbelieving Dullindal was because he wanted Lacus to die more than anything. In fact, most people hated him for wanting to kill her and Kira anyway, but I'm not most people, sorry.

Quote:
And once again about Shinn: you're saying he was plot deviced all those times, but won fair and square the one time he beat Kira. I say Kira got haxed once, then won on him being the better pilot.
So was it a fluke like you mentioned earlier, or was it 'fair and square?' Again, please make up your mind. Don't be so indecisive.

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Tell me, what would have happened with Shinn in ep 28 had Athrun not cut Kira off? Bulky blast Impulse vs. supermaneuverable Freedom? Please remember that Mwu in Launcher Strike got beat by Rau in a CGUE melee style.
And What would have happened to Strike if Athrun had not taken him away from Duel in GS? It's almost the same reasoning, since Blast Impulse is literally a sitting duck against Freedom.

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So tell me, does it make more sense to say that there was one plot device used (oh, and a mighty plot device it was INDEED! Kira DID have to get Strike Freedom SOMEHOW, correct?) as opposed to Shinn losing and staying with Impluse/Destiny...
A lot of things about Kira and Freedom are plot devices, that's all I can say.

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You see, Shinn's losses weren't because he had to upgrade to a new gundam. If there was no SF coming, do you honestly think Fukuda would have trashed the Freedom? Odds are, he would have Shinn get Destiny, go rushing madly at Kira, just for Kira to pwn him again anyway (is there REALLY that much of a difference between Freedom and SF aside from dragoons/beamshields?)
Except for the fact that Freedom's 'rainbow' attack is gone and replaced with dozens of green beams, or that its still a spamming Gundam most of the time? So with your statement, I assume that you would agree to the statement that there is a biaseness in Fukuda towards Kira?

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And let's not forget that Shinn was getting absolutely owned in space. Okay, I'm going to rewatch final plus just so I can find the moment for you when Shinn is getting owned by dragoons.
I didn't see him getting owned by DRAGOONs. How many times did he get hit? Was he even damaged from that single hit I remember from the railguns of SF? Get your facts right. He was taken down easily by Athrun, not the 'almighty' DRAGOONs of Kira Yamato and Strike Freedom.
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Old 2006-01-04, 23:06   Link #217
Demongod86
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Shinn was dodging the dragoons, then got railgunned like a bitch. No, I don't hate the guy, but he was dodging left and right then just got smashed (note: AAAHHHH face) by the railguns. How long do you think Shinn would have lasted under those conditions? Kira barely beat fatass providence with super maneuverable freedom without dragoons. Now factor in SF"s maneuverability and...well...it's stacked against Destiny's capabilities.

Freedom's rainbow attack is still there. Still has the yellow railguns, the blue and red plasma, and green beams. The colors got changed in ratio though.

What I said was that the one time Kira lost was a fluke, because he made up for it consistently by beating or drawing Shinn all other times. It's like a chess series or any other sports series. Kira won 3 games, lost 1, Shinn won 1 game, lost 3. The numbers say Kira is the better pilot.

Or will someone say that Kira had plot devices on his side at all times and the one time he was on an even playing field with Shinn (read: hyperventilating, not wanting to fight ZAFT back, must have a reason for SF), he loses? Ep 42 to me looked pretty fair and square. Kira was in fight mood, Shinn was in fight mood. Shinn attacks, Shinn gets ass handed to him and has to retreat due to being without much of a melee option (and that ridiculous plot device of that hyper capacitor, just to nail it into some viewers' heads that the reasons he was under already were not enough).

So there you go...
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Old 2006-01-04, 23:26   Link #218
_X12A_Testament
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
Shinn was dodging the dragoons, then got railgunned like a bitch. No, I don't hate the guy, but he was dodging left and right then just got smashed (note: AAAHHHH face) by the railguns. How long do you think Shinn would have lasted under those conditions? Kira barely beat fatass providence with super maneuverable freedom without dragoons. Now factor in SF"s maneuverability and...well...it's stacked against Destiny's capabilities.

Freedom's rainbow attack is still there. Still has the yellow railguns, the blue and red plasma, and green beams. The colors got changed in ratio though.

What I said was that the one time Kira lost was a fluke, because he made up for it consistently by beating or drawing Shinn all other times. It's like a chess series or any other sports series. Kira won 3 games, lost 1, Shinn won 1 game, lost 3. The numbers say Kira is the better pilot.

Or will someone say that Kira had plot devices on his side at all times and the one time he was on an even playing field with Shinn (read: hyperventilating, not wanting to fight ZAFT back, must have a reason for SF), he loses? Ep 42 to me looked pretty fair and square. Kira was in fight mood, Shinn was in fight mood. Shinn attacks, Shinn gets ass handed to him and has to retreat due to being without much of a melee option (and that ridiculous plot device of that hyper capacitor, just to nail it into some viewers' heads that the reasons he was under already were not enough).

So there you go...

Damn straight. I am also of this unbiased opinion.
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Old 2006-01-05, 01:36   Link #219
Mr. DJ
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what made it fail......a episode recap at like ep 47 if I'm not mistaken...

having Stellar, Sting and Auel all die...what was the point of having them all as main characters in the beginning? Basically went backwards w/ this than GS which brought in there 3 altered naturals in the second half and died at the end rather than GSD bring in there 3 altered naturals in the beginning and have them all die a good while before the series ended.

having Shin and Athrun as main characters, then putting them on the back burner for Kira to take the spotlight again...

more banked images than fish in a barrel you could shoot at.
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Old 2006-01-05, 02:07   Link #220
_X12A_Testament
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In a nutshell, it seemed a lot of GSD was stringing the audience along with absolutely no payoff at the end....
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