AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Sword Art Online

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-09-08, 19:09   Link #121
Clarste
Human
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 28
It doesn't need to "intercept" anything to show people stuff. It just needs to input signals. Well, it does need to blind you and all that to prevent your senses from overlapping with the real world, but that's not intercepting anything from the brain.
Clarste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 19:11   Link #122
Clarste
Human
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Let me ask something to clarify. What exactly does the NervGear can or can't read from our brain?

Take in mind the context of what I've been talking about from the previous posts.
It can read motor signals, including facial expressions. It cannot read thoughts, feelings, or perceptions.

It can also simulate feedback from any of the 5 senses + balance + pain and probably some of the other more obscure senses that people would go crazy without but the author didn't know about (proprioception, etc). That has nothing to do with reading the brain though.

Edit: It can simulate pain, but it's disabled because no one plays games to feel excruciating pain.
Clarste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 19:12   Link #123
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
It doesn't need to "intercept" anything to show people stuff. It just needs to input signals. Well, it does need to blind you and all that to prevent your senses from overlapping with the real world, but that's not intercepting anything from the brain.
Actually, by definition it does mean those signals are intercepted . If it isn't intercepted then the body receives those signals and move accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Several times in the game it has been shown that speed and reactions is the most important. You don't need physical strength just timing and speed, therefore if they are sensing signals travelling across the white matter and female brains allegedly have more white matter, that to me implies they would have an advantage no matter how slight!
This is reasonable I guess.

EDIT: WWAAAIITT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste
It can read motor signals, including facial expressions. It cannot read thoughts, feelings, or perceptions.

It can also simulate feedback from any of the 5 senses + balance + pain and probably some of the other more obscure senses that people would go crazy without but the author didn't know about (proprioception, etc). That has nothing to do with reading the brain though.
It has everything to do with it doesn't it? Where else does the nerve gear gets all those informations?
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 19:14   Link #124
Clarste
Human
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Actually, by definition it does mean those signals are intercepted . If it isn't intercepted then the body receives those signals and move accordingly.
I said to show people stuff. Not to stop them from moving.

Do people still not understand the difference from input and output? Because they're completely 100% different. The technologies are not at all similar. The Nerve Gear would have to do both, but you can't treat them as the same function.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
It has everything to do with it doesn't it? Where else does the nerve gear gets all those informations?
From nothing? That's the whole point of it being a virtual world, isn't it? Some artist somewhere drew a mountain and the Nerve Gear shows you a picture of a mountain. There is no mountain. I really shouldn't have to explain it on this basic a level...
Clarste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 19:16   Link #125
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I said to show people stuff. Not to stop them from moving.

Do people still not understand the difference from input and output? Because they're completely 100% different. The technologies are not at all similar. The Nerve Gear would have to do both, but you can't treat them as the same function.
Then how do you suppose the NervGear inhibits the body from moving?

It DOES that, right? It's the whole plot point of not being able to log out by yourself by taking the blasted helmet off.

Quote:
From nothing? That's the whole point of it being a virtual world, isn't it? Some artist somewhere drew a mountain and the Nerve Gear shows you a picture of a mountain. There is no mountain. I really shouldn't have to explain it on this basic a level...
Oh, right, now I get what you meant by that. Sorry, misunderstandings.
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 19:19   Link #126
Clarste
Human
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Then how do you suppose the NervGear inhibits the body from moving?

It DOES that, right? It's the whole plot point of not being able to log out by yourself by taking the blasted helmet off.
By intercepting signals. Please actually read what I'm saying. I'm only talking about one function at a time.

Output: The Nerve Gear reads the motor signals coming out of the brain, stops them from reaching their destination, and uses those signals to control the avatar in the virtual world.

Input: The Nerve Gear stops all sense signals from reaching the brain. It completely ignores what those signals actually are, it just blinds you to create a blank canvas. It then uses the data stored on the SAO server to create artificial sense signals that it sends to the brain. If it didn't blind you it could still show you images, but they'd be overlaid on top of what you're actually seeing.
Clarste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 19:24   Link #127
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Right, sorry for that misunderstandings, wholly my mistake

So, back to my original question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
It can read motor signals, including facial expressions. It cannot read thoughts, feelings, or perceptions.

It can also simulate feedback from any of the 5 senses + balance + pain and probably some of the other more obscure senses that people would go crazy without but the author didn't know about (proprioception, etc). That has nothing to do with reading the brain though.

Edit: It can simulate pain, but it's disabled because no one plays games to feel excruciating pain.
How do you suppose they simulate speech in game? Could it be similar to what I proposed?
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 19:26   Link #128
Clarste
Human
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
How do you suppose they simulate speech in game? Could it be similar to what I proposed?
Not sure, but I would guess motor signals to your mouth and throat.
Clarste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 20:02   Link #129
grey_moon
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Because the Nerve Gear takes the place of your body. This is just common sense. It simulates taste by pretending to be your tongue and sending nerve signals. It reacts to movement by pretending to be your arms and receiving nerve signals. It's not a fake brain, it's a fake body.
Gosh I don't think I explained myself too well. I'm not trying to say that the gears simulate the brain, I'm trying to say which part of the brain does the gears interact with, do they interact with the interconnects or the nodes? An easy response would have been could be a combination of the two therefore eliminating any advantages that having more grey or white matter would have!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
It seems to me that you just don't have the slightest clue how the nervous system works in the first place. Brain science is wicked complicated so I can't say I know anything about that, but the theories underlying the Nerve Gear don't rely on that. You mention the headsets that can read brain signals, and yes those are exactly what is being extrapolated into the Nerve Gear, but that has absolutely nothing to do with interfering with the inner workings of the brain. It's just reading the signals that are being given off.

Think of the brain as a black box. It receives inputs, and produces outputs. We have no idea how it works, and it doesn't even matter how it works. If you put in the right inputs, you can get the right outputs. That's all there is to it. Male and female brains might have different inner workings but that doesn't matter in the slightest when we can only deal with inputs and outputs.
I have no idea how the brain works, therefore I posted a reference to an article and made a speculation. My point is to do with communication between the system and the brain.

Let me put you to 3 articles:

The original one about women and men of the same IQ having different grey/white matter ratios

Another about brain sensors right now

I hate referring to this, but the dreaded wiki

Now lets take your analogy of the brain as the black box. Signals going in and our of the brain need an access point, so just as an example lets use the spinal cord.

If women of the same IQ have more white matter then grey compared to men of the same IQ, then taking some bits from wiki:

Myelin acts as an insulator, increasing the speed of transmission of all nerve signals.

and

White matter is the tissue through which messages pass between different areas of gray matter within the nervous system. Using a computer network as an analogy, the gray matter can be thought of as the actual computers themselves, whereas the white matter represents the network cables connecting the computers together.

To me implies that a person with more white matter would be able to get signals to and from the brain to the sensors/projectors quicker!

I hope that clarifies my PoV!
__________________
grey_moon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 20:13   Link #130
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
snip
Some people have mentioned that some people with faster natural reflexes and reaction speed have more advantage in-game, so it probably means the NervGear connects to the interconnection instead of directly on the nodes.

Some also mentions that the constant exposure to the NervGear system have made some people in-game feel they're reacting faster, so it could be that the NervGear also has longterm effects to the actual interconnections of the brain.
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 20:21   Link #131
Adigard
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Let me ask something to clarify. What exactly does the NervGear can or can't read from our brain?
It's an anime only speculation thread... you probably want to ask that question elsewhere if you're looking for a LN discussion. From the anime we really only have snippets from Ep1 and some basic things we've seen in other episodes.

And honestly from those snippets it's almost impossible to know exactly what the NERVgear intercepts / reads. You can't even make too many assumptions based on the fact that you have to make motions to engage Sword Skills / the menu system, that could simply be smart programming, to make the game interface easier to pick up for beginners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Some people have mentioned that some people with faster natural reflexes and reaction speed have more advantage in-game, so it probably means the NervGear connects to the interconnection instead of directly on the nodes.

Some also mentions that the constant exposure to the NervGear system have made some people in-game feel they're reacting faster, so it could be that the NervGear also has longterm effects to the actual interconnections of the brain.
Kirito certainly seems to be attacking pretty damn fast in this episode's duel, and last episodes boss fight. And the duel this episode seemed to be done almost entirely without Sword Skills. Ironic, since it was supposed to showcase Kirito's Unique skill.
Adigard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 20:48   Link #132
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adigard
And honestly from those snippets it's almost impossible to know exactly what the NERVgear intercepts / reads. You can't even make too many assumptions based on the fact that you have to make motions to engage Sword Skills / the menu system, that could simply be smart programming, to make the game interface easier to pick up for beginners.
You are right. But there is nothing else to do in a speculation thread but to speculate, right? This might seem pointless to some people, but to some others, speculating things like this is fun.


Speaking of which how does the NervGear handles "needs"? Hunger, bladder, things like that? If they're playing normally, I don't see a reason to have them blocked, but I suspect the situation now is that they're completely blocked from the sensation of needs of their own body and only experience simulated ones.

Speaking of needs, do people actually feel sleepy in-game, or need to? (aside from consciously entering sleep-state, which is clearly possible) I think I vaguely remember the anime saying something that they don't need to, but I forgot.
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 21:07   Link #133
Adigard
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Speaking of which how does the NervGear handles "needs"? Hunger, bladder, things like that? If they're playing normally, I don't see a reason to have them blocked, but I suspect the situation now is that they're completely blocked from the sensation of needs of their own body and only experience simulated ones.
There must be some 'in-game' sensation of hunger, since there is in-game food. And since they've been, effectively, in a coma for nigh on two years they'd be dead if they weren't being feed somehow or another (IV drop seems fairly obvious) so their real world needs are likely being taken care of... Also it's fairly obvious that eating in-game food would make you feel full, or else it'd be rather pointless.

Also I think I recall someone's stomach rumbling somewhere? Probably Kirito's since he seems to dig food.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Speaking of needs, do people actually feel sleepy in-game, or need to? (aside from consciously entering sleep-state, which is clearly possible) I think I vaguely remember the anime saying something that they don't need to, but I forgot.
Even if your body is in a comatose state, your mind is rather active... so sleep would be absolutely required. Also we've seen sleep deprived people sleeping it off for 8'ish hours, so decent sleep is required. I'm sure just like the real world you could pull through for extremely long periods of time on 6'ish hours of sleep, but you'll eventually pay the price. Heck, you could likely go a short while on 3-4, but you'd really pay the price then.

The mind needs it's sleep, and I doubt any VR gimmickry would get around that.
Adigard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 21:08   Link #134
EnOfEridu
a.k.a Enki
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Speaking of which how does the NervGear handles "needs"? Hunger, bladder, things like that? If they're playing normally, I don't see a reason to have them blocked, but I suspect the situation now is that they're completely blocked from the sensation of needs of their own body and only experience simulated ones.

Speaking of needs, do people actually feel sleepy in-game, or need to? (aside from consciously entering sleep-state, which is clearly possible) I think I vaguely remember the anime saying something that they don't need to, but I forgot.
About needs, there is a time in ep1 just before Kayaba makes the reveal, that Klein gets hungry and Kirito answering that if he eats "in game" he will fill as if he ate, but in reality he still will be hungry.
BUT! hunget, thirst and bladder function don't come from the brain, come from the body, if the NervGear hacks into that signals, then they shouldn't get hungry, thirsty, whatever. Unless is just a reminder if it wasn't a revir (real/virtual) to "log the fuck off and eat". A failsafe made by the sane programmers.

On their real bodies, all that needs are taken care with IV's and catheters in very uncomfortable places. If you think about it, in the end game, you can get out. But would you want to get out to a body who is barely able to move, full of sores from the prolonged time in bed in mostly the same position? That sounds awful.

Also, real bodies don't regenerate lost body parts.
EnOfEridu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-08, 22:06   Link #135
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
The mind needs it's sleep, and I doubt any VR gimmickry would get around that.
Thing is, afaik it's still unclear if sleep is the need of the mind or the body. Even now we don't know for sure WHY we're even sleeping, other than that we feel sleepy.
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-09, 02:03   Link #136
grey_moon
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Some also mentions that the constant exposure to the NervGear system have made some people in-game feel they're reacting faster, so it could be that the NervGear also has longterm effects to the actual interconnections of the brain.
I think that could be the case, also I mentioned earlier that Kirito should have more of an advantage since he had trained in Kendo. Any martial art training would introduce you to a concept of kiniethis or muscle memory. Kinda a bad term since your muscles don't remember anything, but instead it is stuff you do over and over again so u don't consciously need to think about what you are doing. We do it all the time when we walk, pick stuff up etc. But with any martial arts you practice dodging, blocking, attacking until it becomes subconscious.

So why is this IMHO an advantage to playing SAO? Well if you see the earlier explanation Kirito gives to Klein he preps the move, and the releases when the timing is right.

I think if you are used to this sort of thing, you can spend more of your slower conciousness being aware and letting your faster pocedural memory do the rest.

So people who haven't trained in a martial art would have to get used instinctively firing off a move rather then thinking prep move, aim move, launch move etc etc...
__________________
grey_moon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-12, 14:30   Link #137
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Microsoft's team of researchers is looking to transform your living room into a futuristic Star Trek-style 'Holodeck'.
In these images, revealed by a patent application published last month, Microsoft unveiled its vision for its future game consoles - but instead of watching the action through a typical computer monitor or TV, your walls come alive with the action.
The technology will use Microsoft's Kinect sensor - which currently lets you control games by waving your hands at the television - to map out your room and your location within it, before a range of video projectors overlay a full and immersive 3D world over your surroundings.
So, instead of turning your TV on to play computer games, your whole living room - plant pots and all - could be transformed into a full 3D world from which you can hunt aliens on a distant planet or take part in epic Westerns.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...-consoles.html
i posted this in the silly news thread but thought it fit here too.
__________________
Xellos-_^ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-16, 02:04   Link #138
ronelm2000
Moe Kyun~!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philippines
Send a message via Skype™ to ronelm2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnOfEridu View Post
As far as i remember, the NervGear seems to read the brain, not only "motoric" functions. But, someone commented that the LN says so. I should have to watch the first ep to see if they mention something, but really, i think it has not been clarified so it's open to speculation. And since has been said, if you simulate just "motion" signals, how can you simulate taste, smell and sight. (sound and touch are more or less motiony so).

I'm merely speculating using available information from the anime. And my leaking memory.
NervGear can read all signals to from the brain, but that does not mean they can intercept all them -- they probably only understand the motor and the vital signals...
ronelm2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-16, 06:52   Link #139
grey_moon
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronelm2000 View Post
NervGear can read all signals to from the brain, but that does not mean they can intercept all them -- they probably only understand the motor and the vital signals...
Also taste! Hmmmm spicy
__________________
grey_moon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-17, 01:55   Link #140
Znail
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Eh, I wouldn't go that far.

First off, there is no real-world analogues to the Nervgear nor Admin access panels located in the middle of a dungeon in a MMO, those things simply doesn't exist IRL, so you can't say with any authority what can or can't be done with those unless you're the author himself.

Moreover, if you go by current standards, the idea that a regular GM would have the authority to sectioning off a portion of the game's programming and create a brand new item with it is laughable, hence why it would be considered to be a plothole by many.
VRMMO may be a future thing, but MMO's and before that text based MUD's are not. The later are more similar then one may think as the 3D version was greatly inspired by the earlier text based variants. There is no reason to think that VRMMO's coding would be radically different then the non VR versions that came before.

Copying objects code, editing code in objects, creating/cloning objects, destroying objects and moving code are all basic access stuff that any GM would be able to do. Some GM in training may not be allowed to create an object with code they have edited without a suppervisor checking it out. But making a copy of some excisting code would be alowed to anyone with the absolute lowest access as that is the basis for learning how things works.

The idea of a console in the game is less strange then it seems as from my own experience in both MUD's and MMO's so do a GM rarely have any powers just from his account, but rather so is it some object he is given that gives him access to commands that can affect the code and objects in the game. And objects in a 3d game will have 3d icons, similar to what happens if you drop a file on the desktop of windows. Thus a 3d object that holds GM powers are not such a strange thing.
Znail is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:43.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.