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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa Movie Rating
Perfect 10 40 42.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 33 34.74%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 12.63%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 5.26%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 3.16%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 2.11%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-08-31, 08:16   Link #3841
Saber024
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backread a little.

did a marathon with the TV series then watched the 2 movies.

didn't really like False Diva, Wings of Goodbye was a good enough ending.

makes me really wonder a lot how they'll explain where the Vajra and Alto folded to....

and Sheryl will wake up.
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Old 2012-08-31, 09:09   Link #3842
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Originally Posted by Saber024 View Post
backread a little.

did a marathon with the TV series then watched the 2 movies.

didn't really like False Diva, Wings of Goodbye was a good enough ending.

makes me really wonder a lot how they'll explain where the Vajra and Alto folded to....

and Sheryl will wake up.
I went to the joint Tomo Sakurai (Mylene) / Aya Endo (Sheryl) talk a few weeks ago at the museum exhibit in Ikebukuro, and someone asked them how they thought Mylene and Sheryl would change in five or ten years.

Aya Endo said, "Well, Sheryl was still in a coma at the end of the movie, right? So maybe she'll still be asleep in ten years."
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Old 2012-08-31, 17:02   Link #3843
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I deleted 26 off-topic posts (nothing to do with this movie at all). This is not a random Macross franchise chatroom.
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Old 2012-09-06, 02:50   Link #3844
Ozuma-Rii
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
I went to the joint Tomo Sakurai (Mylene) / Aya Endo (Sheryl) talk a few weeks ago at the museum exhibit in Ikebukuro, and someone asked them how they thought Mylene and Sheryl would change in five or ten years.

Aya Endo said, "Well, Sheryl was still in a coma at the end of the movie, right? So maybe she'll still be asleep in ten years."
^This
Though so, looking at the official art she got, she seems to be a lot younger than (let's see: 18[Was it?] + 10 = 28) 28 years old.
Macross inconsistency. Deal with it.

Though I would like to say this ending for the second movie looked very rushed to me, and was sort of segregated from the story, and too sudden. Epic, yes, but the ending was like flying a valkyrie at top speed into an iron wall.
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Old 2012-09-08, 16:10   Link #3845
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Though I would like to say this ending for the second movie looked very rushed to me, and was sort of segregated from the story, and too sudden. Epic, yes, but the ending was like flying a valkyrie at top speed into an iron wall.
Ironically, I laugh at the fact that Alto vanishes right after confessing to Sheryl; like they're not meant to be because fate picked such a dumb time to split them apart.

I find myself remembering so many lovely Alto and Ranka moments right now. I haven't re-watched MF again yet due to school and work but I plan to soon. I don't feel like reviewing much of the movie, so I'll just say two things:
1. finally, Alto got to act like a true main male character and hero! And it's a shame that he picks the wrong girl and takes a death nap for the rest of the movie.
2. the movie... is almost 90% Sheryl-induced. What a waste of screen time. We needed more time to explain the enemy and deal with the war and all they could think to do is center on the woman who's dying. We get it: she loves him, she's dying, and she wants to sing; end of story. Let's move on the others like Michael and Ozma who get kicked aside. Seriously, I hated that. Ozma is one of the most badass characters in anime.
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Old 2012-09-08, 17:09   Link #3846
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Yeah, strange that they focused on the hugely popular character who is turning into one of the evergreens of animation. What a surprise...
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Old 2012-09-08, 17:36   Link #3847
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Yeah, strange that they focused on the hugely popular character who is turning into one of the evergreens of animation. What a surprise...
She's not the hero though (or main character/leader), Alto is. And he was kicked to the side a lot too. So your point is invalid.
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Old 2012-09-08, 17:51   Link #3848
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Sure, Alto was the male main protagonist. If you want to delude yourself that Sheryl wasn't the female main protagonist, be my guest. ^^
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Old 2012-09-08, 23:03   Link #3849
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I'll say that Sheryl is a heroine, just like Ranka. That's how they are generally identified in Japanese fiction (heroine is used as potential love interest for the main protagonist).
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Old 2012-09-08, 23:05   Link #3850
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Sure, Alto was the male main protagonist. If you want to delude yourself that Sheryl wasn't the female main protagonist, be my guest. ^^
I'd beg to differ, but when you see the TV version, it is very obvious a certain green-haired girl is the main protagonist, if you wanted to talk about male and female protagonists.
In the movie, it is much the same. Let me highlight the details.

Ranka--important plot device, grows from a child-like personality to one who shoulders the responsibility of both the well being of the Vajura and Humanity. She gets character depth, and growth.

Alto--the pilot of the VF, he is the fighter of the series, and the center of the love triangle, 'nuff said.

Sheryl--the big brother/sister mentor of Ranka, and overall supporting the development of Alto and Ranka. Gets little plot development, if you want a literary analysis I would say static, since she mostly stays the same, because she does not need it as the role of the supporter

This is purely my opinion though...
Though be my guest if you want to continue taking Sheryl as the protagonist, I seriously have no idea how you got to that conclusion.
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Old 2012-09-08, 23:50   Link #3851
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Sure, Alto was the male main protagonist. If you want to delude yourself that Sheryl wasn't the female main protagonist, be my guest. ^^
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Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Though be my guest if you want to continue taking Sheryl as the protagonist, I seriously have no idea how you got to that conclusion.
The shipping wars will never end. -_-;
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Old 2012-09-09, 00:29   Link #3852
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Haha... I was just justifying, warring is fun but tiring. Seriously.
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Old 2012-09-09, 00:38   Link #3853
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@Kags: I don't get why a romance story would spend so much time on that kinda stuff either. I mean, we aaaaaaall get it: boy loves girl, girl loves boy, stuff pushes them apart, hijinks ensue, pent-up feelings they spew. Wasn't this meant to be a documentary on the tech specs of mecha?

Ozma would have made for a much better plot. He loves Cathy. Cathy loves him. Stuff pushes them apart. Hijinks ensue... oh wait, scratch that. Er... Michael! He loves Klan. Klan loves him. No she doesn't. Yes she does... oh, I give up.

@Ozuma: Ah literal analysis. Super important. There's a top secret code that the director uses to tell you who the real protags are, and nobody else knows the code ('cept for me ). But all the posters can do deep analyses to figure it out.

Mirror mirror on the wall, who is the complexest character of all?

If you win you get unlimited cookies and everyone else admits that your character is really the bestest i mean, the most protagonistly-acting protagonist. Or they don't admit it. But then you can just use more analysis to figure out that they're just being tsundere about it.

PS Sheryl's not a protagonist, she's a brotagonist. And Alto is his woman.
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Old 2012-09-09, 02:54   Link #3854
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And erfine takes first price, as always.

But, seriously for a moment, the films have some narrative weaknesses, many of which come because ( it seems to me ) Kawamori wanted to use them to correct the character flaws which were evident in the series, small as they may have been in some cases. And he overshot that mark on some accounts.

Sheryl had a likeability problem for some viewers, because it seems that some people form all of their impression of a person by their first impression. And Sheryl came off pretty poorly to some people in that regard. So movie!Sheryl starts as an awesome character and stays that way. She has little character development but is clearly front and center of the movie. Although Kawamori made a ( IMO ) pretty big mistake in having her seriously consider Graces proposal in movie two, about harvesting Ranka for organs. Her really considering such an offer that late in the movie did her no favors, compared to series!Sheryl.

Ranka made such stunningly bad decisions in the second half of the TV series, that she ended up one of the most hated characters in the Macross franchise. Evidently Kawamori felt that she needed to be redeemed ( and I think that may have been one of the deciding factors in doing a movie reboot instead of a series continuation: Ranka as in the TV series was unsalvageable with a lot of fans ) and he did a very fine job with that, showing us that movie!Rankas reaction to immenent danger was not to yell "Save me Alto-kun!" and later walk away from protecting her home, but to throw herself into deathly danger and try to sacrifice herself for her people. Oh, and she took Altos decision to choose Sheryl quite gracefully, which is more than I can say about her other version. Overall the most improved character and happily so.

Alto had the problem in the series of being too private about his feelings, making him unrelatable for a lot of viewers. While I was perfectly fine with most of that ( him being too coy with his feelings toward the end was more due to the chosen narrative device of letting the viewers hang about his feelings until the last episode.... only that the writers then chickened out and let that unfinished, too ), Kawamori obviously thought that he needed to air his feelings more as to elevate him as a protagonist. Sadly, he also chose to focus Altos inner struggle away from "I pretend to hate my life here on Frontier, but I really love my home, my friends and my family. I need to overcome this and accept my inner feelings" towards "I have gender issues". Which really is not the path I would have chosen myself, but then again I am just a viewer, not the writer. So, for me personally, the character also did not compare favorably to his series counterpart.
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Old 2012-09-09, 03:02   Link #3855
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@Kags: I don't get why a romance story would spend so much time on that kinda stuff either. I mean, we aaaaaaall get it: boy loves girl, girl loves boy, stuff pushes them apart, hijinks ensue, pent-up feelings they spew. Wasn't this meant to be a documentary on the tech specs of mecha?

Ozma would have made for a much better plot. He loves Cathy. Cathy loves him. Stuff pushes them apart. Hijinks ensue... oh wait, scratch that. Er... Michael! He loves Klan. Klan loves him. No she doesn't. Yes she does... oh, I give up.

@Ozuma: Ah literal analysis. Super important. There's a top secret code that the director uses to tell you who the real protags are, and nobody else knows the code ('cept for me ). But all the posters can do deep analyses to figure it out.

Mirror mirror on the wall, who is the complexest character of all?

If you win you get unlimited cookies and everyone else admits that your character is really the bestest i mean, the most protagonistly-acting protagonist. Or they don't admit it. But then you can just use more analysis to figure out that they're just being tsundere about it.

PS Sheryl's not a protagonist, she's a brotagonist. And Alto is his woman.
Blasphemy! Alto cookie belongs to my cute Ranka only! ;P
Yeah, but you must admit Alto did learn to man up at the end...

And, just saying, at least the proportion i.e. ratio between plot and romance is more balanced, and we were given generally more information about the Vajura. But in the movie, all I saw was a futile attempt by the staff to re-write the story by having Sheryl as the main focus, and the fights as garnish on a badly cooked dish. Seriously, if they wanted to make amovie, they should balance it like the tv series: there were the many moments that they show the data and research process on the enemy. It is better than a certain skimpily dressed pink haired impersonator of my loli hogging all the screen time. Heck, even I would hate if Ranka hogs the whole screen. At least when they show Ranka, it usually has lots of plot significance even in the TV series (which ranka pubstomped Sheryl into the curb harder that ramming a ghost v 9 into an iron wall IMO)

There, just my two cents.
Perhaps next time I might give a dollar or two (lame joke, I know)

Btw, are we violating the rules by (almost) starting a shipping war?
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Old 2012-09-09, 03:04   Link #3856
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Aha! Gotcha on my turf, magnuskn!
Again with the episode 21!

I would like you to review Ranka's character. Do you know that she left to protect frontier? Do you know that she was responsible for both races, the Vajura and the Humans's survival? Heck, if I wereher, I would make th same decisions.

Note that in episode 21, she left on part that she could communicate with the vajura, and that she was also a human, making her the bridge between humanity and the vajura. If you are the hybrid of both race, and you see both races at war because of misunderstanding,would you just leave one race to die? You forget, I say, the importance and gravity of this question on the 16 year old ranka. The fact that she made the decision to attempt to save the frontier and the vajura by doing so is the turning point of her character development, showing how she was maturing and that she was no longer the kid that threw pans at her brother for something stupid. She was willing to forsake herself being with Alto to protect frontier. And, don't go all SDF over me.

While Ranka grew. Kawamori did the right decision from square one, but because of fan pressure he had to change it. The fans did not understand how this made her grow. Whereas, Sheryl, whom they view to have not betrayed humanity, "takes the center stage" for two episodes.
In further episodes, you would find that it is not that Ranka made bad decisions, it is that she was being human. She still suffers emotional trauma, she still is being controlled by Grace. She is not some Mary-sue Messiah like character where she will always make the right choices. So of the "choices" you perceive to be are Grace's coerceing and exploiting of Ranka's emotional weakness. So, there.

No hard feelings, guys.
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Old 2012-09-09, 03:06   Link #3857
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Like I always say....they did not title the soundtrack as The END of Triangle for nothing.
And I will leave it at that.
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Old 2012-09-09, 03:18   Link #3858
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Btw, are we violating the rules by (almost) starting a shipping war?
Please don't start a shipping war. But I'm familiar enough with the franchise by now to not expect this sort of topic to come up. Just please keep it civil and on-topic to the movie...
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Old 2012-09-09, 03:25   Link #3859
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Like I always say....they did not title the soundtrack as The END of Triangle for nothing.
And I will leave it at that.
Excuse me while I try to find Kawamori's email...

And while I go hang myself over you thinking that the movies and the TV are the same continuity.

And relentlessflame, for all of our sanity we shall not be as rabid as a certain Ranka fan was once. I do not mean Kags.
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Old 2012-09-09, 04:41   Link #3860
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The shipping wars will never end. -_-;
I wasn't trying to start a shipping war. I simply wanted to express my dislike for one character stealing the screen from other non-main characters that I'd love to see. I even gave a few in general: Ozma, Michael, and Klan is another, Grace, Brera, and even Luca... poor Luca.

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Sure, Alto was the male main protagonist. If you want to delude yourself that Sheryl wasn't the female main protagonist, be my guest. ^^
You really miss the fact that Alto's name comes first in the cast, he is the main protagonist, the one taking this journey, and therefore should receive more screen time. He is a more interesting character than Sheryl given his background. She is frozen in one place and will never move. However, Alto had true potential to shine greater than ever before and they let that slip through their fingers. He was downplayed to a generally emo gender-bender who wants to fly and protect his home. None of that was his original character. But because Sheryl has to take up 90% of the movie, Alto is not important to them, never mind that he is her romantic interest.

But still, I am not delusional. I wanted to see more of Klan especially. She attracted my attention in the series for being the most daring female character in the show. Do not forget that she is also the one to make Michael shine. Her missing as a character that assisted greatly in the movies depressed me. She was downplayed to just being a random person who shows up and has connections to the main characters via the military.
Michael really had an interesting background with his sister's death and how he came to fall in love with Klan, even how he met Alto (drama CD); but they downplayed all of this to him being just an insight character with some support to the protagonists. However, his friendship with Alto then became questionable because they never gave any background information about whether they were friends or just comrades (at the base), since the story is altered from the original series version. Their interaction time to justify their exact relationship with one another is very little. The closest scene to friendship between them is almost at the movie's end, in which Michael tries to slap Alto and they have a bro moment. That's it. And I felt that Michael was truly an inspiration to Alto in the series but they felt that wasn't important at all, never mind that Alto grew with the help of Michael.
Shall I even approach poor Luca in this matter? He was one of the few characters we barely saw enough of in the series and knew very little, if anything, about him. Given that his sister is dating Mishima, that gives a very interesting plot but they all but slapped it aside. Take notice that we are left unaware if his sister ever survived the Vajra war. Also, his relationship with Nanase is torn apart completely. They never actually meet in the movies. I felt that it was Nanase who helped Luca mature into a man in the series and they slapped that aside completely.
Nanase was the worst of the side characters. She got a total of two scenes in the movie and only one line. Her friendship with Ranka that was so nice was gone completely. This downplayed her role and also severed her tie with Luca. They really screwed up there.
Ozma is one of the most badass male characters in anime. The series proves it. But his role in the movies is very little. He is used as a plot device to be lost with Sheryl, one whom in the series he didn't care for a lot, and doesn't get to even show his feelings for Catherine one bit besides the date. They avoided all of his character development to allowing Ranka to grow. Plus, there is very little interaction time between Ozma and Ranka, thus destroying the bond they had for new viewers.

I won't state any others but a good story builds from the secondary characters up to the main characters, working in their relationships with one another and how that secondary character can help improve on the main character. The movies did no justice to this at all.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
I'll say that Sheryl is a heroine, just like Ranka. That's how they are generally identified in Japanese fiction (heroine is used as potential love interest for the main protagonist).
I respect your opinion, Thess; but I refer generally to her hogging the screen so various other secondary characters meant to help the plot do very little, thus leaving out plenty of details. Also, that doesn't justify slapping Alto to the curve one bit.

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@Kags: I don't get why a romance story would spend so much time on that kinda stuff either. I mean, we aaaaaaall get it: boy loves girl, girl loves boy, stuff pushes them apart, hijinks ensue, pent-up feelings they spew. Wasn't this meant to be a documentary on the tech specs of mecha?
A general news flash: this is not a romance story. It is centered around the plot. The plot is the war between humans and Vajra. The love triangle is only meant to be the icing on the cake. But unlike DYRL where they centered on the war and love triangle evenly, this movie pushes the love triangle (or just Sheryl) to the absolute front, because that's what fans want. Had they focused them evenly and increased the roles of the secondary characters, the movies wouldn't have such a mixed opinion in terms of fans appreciating them or not. For one, the whole first movie is about Sheryl. The whole first movie is recycled footage doesn't justify that it is about that one solemn character; and it kills me every time to watch Michael, Klan, and Ozma get downplayed to being random characters who show up to assist the protagonists. I leave Ranka out of this equation on purpose, as she at least got decent screen time, but Alto is downplayed to a generally emo gender-bender. It is all so ridiculous. The second movie only took everything from the first and made the secondary characters have even less of an importance to the main characters. And once again, it's all about Sheryl; who is not even the one the story is about - since it is about Alto.

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Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
I'd beg to differ, but when you see the TV version, it is very obvious a certain green-haired girl is the main protagonist, if you wanted to talk about male and female protagonists.
Alto is the main male protagonist and the one the story is written for. It is all about his journey to become a pilot and a man. Sheryl and Ranka are actually tied for the main female protagonists since they are both parts of the love triangle. There is no first or second in that category for them. Try as others might, both females are equal.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
But, seriously for a moment, the films have some narrative weaknesses, many of which come because ( it seems to me ) Kawamori wanted to use them to correct the character flaws which were evident in the series, small as they may have been in some cases. And he overshot that mark on some accounts.

Sheryl had a likeability problem for some viewers, because it seems that some people form all of their impression of a person by their first impression. And Sheryl came off pretty poorly to some people in that regard. So movie!Sheryl starts as an awesome character and stays that way. She has little character development but is clearly front and center of the movie. Although Kawamori made a ( IMO ) pretty big mistake in having her seriously consider Graces proposal in movie two, about harvesting Ranka for organs. Her really considering such an offer that late in the movie did her no favors, compared to series!Sheryl.

Ranka made such stunningly bad decisions in the second half of the TV series, that she ended up one of the most hated characters in the Macross franchise. Evidently Kawamori felt that she needed to be redeemed ( and I think that may have been one of the deciding factors in doing a movie reboot instead of a series continuation: Ranka as in the TV series was unsalvageable with a lot of fans ) and he did a very fine job with that, showing us that movie!Rankas reaction to immenent danger was not to yell "Save me Alto-kun!" and later walk away from protecting her home, but to throw herself into deathly danger and try to sacrifice herself for her people. Oh, and she took Altos decision to choose Sheryl quite gracefully, which is more than I can say about her other version. Overall the most improved character and happily so.

Alto had the problem in the series of being too private about his feelings, making him unrelatable for a lot of viewers. While I was perfectly fine with most of that ( him being too coy with his feelings toward the end was more due to the chosen narrative device of letting the viewers hang about his feelings until the last episode.... only that the writers then chickened out and let that unfinished, too ), Kawamori obviously thought that he needed to air his feelings more as to elevate him as a protagonist. Sadly, he also chose to focus Altos inner struggle away from "I pretend to hate my life here on Frontier, but I really love my home, my friends and my family. I need to overcome this and accept my inner feelings" towards "I have gender issues". Which really is not the path I would have chosen myself, but then again I am just a viewer, not the writer. So, for me personally, the character also did not compare favorably to his series counterpart.
There are many ways I want to respond to this. One of them is that Ranka didn't have many "character flaws." She was just too human for people to accept. Given her situation and the lack of proper information, her decisions were logical since she couldn't trust anyone to understand her reasoning at that point. The second is that Sheryl remained an irritating character even whilst being sick in the second half. She became emo, moody, and often times clingy, all the characteristics that AS fans claimed Ranka had. Alto had a nice character background and decent growth but they knocked all of that out in the movies for the sake of finishing off his gender issues (which still weren't finished up, mind you). So in some ways, we agree, in others, we don't. But I think we do have the same opinion of Alto in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raile View Post
Like I always say....they did not title the soundtrack as The END of Triangle for nothing.
And I will leave it at that.
And yet they are still continuing the story, giving more chances for Ranka... Another movie's coming out and there is no guarantee yet that Alto won't be featured or that the love triangle will continue or not.

But regardless of that, this is not about a shipping war. I simply dislike that secondary characters were downplayed for the ridiculous idea that Sheryl was a more interesting character when she was the one with the smallest background story, the simplest plot development, and the easiest to solve character flaws. I seriously dislike that. So I stated my aggravation. It doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see Sheryl, I think she is a good role model to Ranka, but honestly; when she pushes great characters like Ozma, Klan, and Michael out, that is where I draw the line.

-

Forgive the length but I didn't feel like compressing it down...
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