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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa Movie Rating
Perfect 10 40 42.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 33 34.74%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 12.63%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 5.26%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 3.16%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 2.11%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-09, 05:10   Link #3861
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
You really miss the fact that Alto's name comes first in the cast, he is the main protagonist, the one taking this journey, and therefore should receive more screen time. He is a more interesting character than Sheryl given his background. She is frozen in one place and will never move. However, Alto had true potential to shine greater than ever before and they let that slip through their fingers. He was downplayed to a generally emo gender-bender who wants to fly and protect his home. None of that was his original character. But because Sheryl has to take up 90% of the movie, Alto is not important to them, never mind that he is her romantic interest.

But still, I am not delusional. I wanted to see more of Klan especially. She attracted my attention in the series for being the most daring female character in the show. Do not forget that she is also the one to make Michael shine. Her missing as a character that assisted greatly in the movies depressed me. She was downplayed to just being a random person who shows up and has connections to the main characters via the military.
Michael really had an interesting background with his sister's death and how he came to fall in love with Klan, even how he met Alto (drama CD); but they downplayed all of this to him being just an insight character with some support to the protagonists. However, his friendship with Alto then became questionable because they never gave any background information about whether they were friends or just comrades (at the base), since the story is altered from the original series version. Their interaction time to justify their exact relationship with one another is very little. The closest scene to friendship between them is almost at the movie's end, in which Michael tries to slap Alto and they have a bro moment. That's it. And I felt that Michael was truly an inspiration to Alto in the series but they felt that wasn't important at all, never mind that Alto grew with the help of Michael.
Shall I even approach poor Luca in this matter? He was one of the few characters we barely saw enough of in the series and knew very little, if anything, about him. Given that his sister is dating Mishima, that gives a very interesting plot but they all but slapped it aside. Take notice that we are left unaware if his sister ever survived the Vajra war. Also, his relationship with Nanase is torn apart completely. They never actually meet in the movies. I felt that it was Nanase who helped Luca mature into a man in the series and they slapped that aside completely.
Nanase was the worst of the side characters. She got a total of two scenes in the movie and only one line. Her friendship with Ranka that was so nice was gone completely. This downplayed her role and also severed her tie with Luca. They really screwed up there.
Ozma is one of the most badass male characters in anime. The series proves it. But his role in the movies is very little. He is used as a plot device to be lost with Sheryl, one whom in the series he didn't care for a lot, and doesn't get to even show his feelings for Catherine one bit besides the date. They avoided all of his character development to allowing Ranka to grow. Plus, there is very little interaction time between Ozma and Ranka, thus destroying the bond they had for new viewers.

I won't state any others but a good story builds from the secondary characters up to the main characters, working in their relationships with one another and how that secondary character can help improve on the main character. The movies did no justice to this at all.
What I am saying is that Ranka was mostly being rescued from her poor characterization from the series. Sheryl and Alto were front and center of the movie, because they were the romantic couple, Ranka was the rival ( and a pretty good one here, contrary to the series ).

I totally agree that the secondary characters should have had more screentime. I hope that new movie takes care of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
A general news flash: this is not a romance story.
It actually was, to the detriment of other aspects. But that is what happens with all Macross sequels, they focus on one element of the original SDFM and really push it over the top. Macross 7 was about music, Macross Plus about flying ( and music and romance... it was better balanced than the other sequels ), Macross Zero about... Kawamori smoking too much weed and Macross Frontier was about romance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
There are many ways I want to respond to this. One of them is that Ranka didn't have many "character flaws." She was just too human for people to accept. Given her situation and the lack of proper information, her decisions were logical since she couldn't trust anyone to understand her reasoning at that point. The second is that Sheryl remained an irritating character even whilst being sick in the second half. She became emo, moody, and often times clingy, all the characteristics that AS fans claimed Ranka had. Alto had a nice character background and decent growth but they knocked all of that out in the movies for the sake of finishing off his gender issues (which still weren't finished up, mind you). So in some ways, we agree, in others, we don't. But I think we do have the same opinion of Alto in this case.
I think we can chalk up the different opinions about Sheryl and Ranka due to, well, differing taste.
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Old 2012-09-09, 05:23   Link #3862
karice67
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I won't agree with the rest of that post (because I simply don't agree with a lot of it), but believe it or not, magnus and Ozuma-Rii, Kags was completely and utterly right about this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Alto is the main male protagonist and the one the story is written for. ... Sheryl and Ranka are actually tied for the main female protagonists ... There is no first or second in that category for them. Try as others might, both females are equal.

Except that, in Japan, only Alto is ever referred to as the protagonist. The girls tend to be referred to as the two heroines. As far as I know, anyway.

With that, I'll leave you guys and gals to it.
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Old 2012-09-09, 05:30   Link #3863
Ozuma-Rii
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You got that right in some way, so let's just end this and hold hands.
Or, we can keep on arguing and give more life to this thread.
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Old 2012-09-09, 06:05   Link #3864
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Well, it seems like an issue to semantics to me to distinguish between "protagonist" and "heroines". But I think it ain't an issue to waste much time over, either. ^^
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Old 2012-09-09, 06:14   Link #3865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Excuse me while I try to find Kawamori's email...

And while I go hang myself over you thinking that the movies and the TV are the same continuity.
TV series ending was non-conclusive, which was frustrating because the romance aspect of the series was played up so much to the detriment of most other sides of the show. Still Sheryl and Alto where living together at the point of time, most Ranka fans where shitting on Kawamori before the final episode aired, since the "ending" was so obvious. The compare it to say a duel in an MMO... (been watching Sword Art, holla @ me Team Asuna) it was like a one sided contest had no winner because the servers went down before the final blow could be delivered. Yeah it was obvious who was winning but there was no notification... and hence no winner. Though I guess you could say the Movie was the rematch.... Game, Set, Match, Sheryl.

Quote:
And relentlessflame, for all of our sanity we shall not be as rabid as a certain Ranka fan was once. I do not mean Kags.
Shoutouts to BleachOD using my reverse jinx as a basis for why Ranka should've won on in this movie even though I've never seen either of the Frontier movies.
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Old 2012-09-09, 06:22   Link #3866
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Do not mention the great Cthulhu.

Also, SAO was not much of a contest, it was pretty clear it'd be Asuna who'd win the "price". ^^
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Old 2012-09-09, 06:26   Link #3867
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The other girls never even appeared in Sword Art Online until after the completion of the first novel, (the anime has side storys inserted in a correct timeline) so it really is a no contest lol.

Anyway I really should watch the movies some day but I rarely have time for anime, the 10 episodes of Sword Art are like the only anime i've seen in a month and I watched them over a two day period.
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Old 2012-09-09, 06:36   Link #3868
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Yeah, well. It's about the same time investment, a little bit less even.
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Old 2012-09-09, 07:16   Link #3869
Ozuma-Rii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
TV series ending was non-conclusive, which was frustrating because the romance aspect of the series was played up so much to the detriment of most other sides of the show. Still Sheryl and Alto where living together at the point of time, most Ranka fans where shitting on Kawamori before the final episode aired, since the "ending" was so obvious. The compare it to say a duel in an MMO... (been watching Sword Art, holla @ me Team Asuna) it was like a one sided contest had no winner because the servers went down before the final blow could be delivered. Yeah it was obvious who was winning but there was no notification... and hence no winner. Though I guess you could say the Movie was the rematch.... Game, Set, Match, Sheryl.



Shoutouts to BleachOD using my reverse jinx as a basis for why Ranka should've won on in this movie even though I've never seen either of the Frontier movies.
You may like to know that even Sheryl admitted that she lost during Klan Klan's private psychologist session with Alto in episode 23 (or was it 24? I cannot remember).
So, 1-1, 1 all, in their respective continuities.
Unless they make a third movie, I doubt we will ever know who won the final match. Then again Kawamori can troll us by making a fourth movie. And tell us to wait on the 40th Macross anniversary before telling us who really won.

But this is about the TV show on my part, so I am voluntary on having my post disappear in "Relentless Flame" when the admin comes. If my post violates, that is. *Just trying to get a point across to one guy*

I still want to fold a Ghost V9 to where Alto is by the end of the movie.

Eheheheheh...
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Old 2012-09-09, 07:39   Link #3870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
What I am saying is that Ranka was mostly being rescued from her poor characterization from the series. Sheryl and Alto were front and center of the movie, because they were the romantic couple, Ranka was the rival ( and a pretty good one here, contrary to the series ).
But they weren't part of the final plot, which was centered on the war. Had they toned it down a bit, more information would've been conveyed and it wouldn't be such a big-bang ending.

Quote:
I totally agree that the secondary characters should have had more screentime. I hope that new movie takes care of that.
We found a nice agreement.

Quote:
It actually was, to the detriment of other aspects. But that is what happens with all Macross sequels, they focus on one element of the original SDFM and really push it over the top. Macross 7 was about music, Macross Plus about flying ( and music and romance... it was better balanced than the other sequels ), Macross Zero about... Kawamori smoking too much weed and Macross Frontier was about romance.
That's what I hate about Macross in this respect, for it differs from Gundam. The elements they choose to focus on usually get lost in the actual point behind making the series/movie/OVA. And in the end, that was my thoughts of M7 exactly.

BTW, I laughed at your comment about Zero. I thought the same thing when watching it. I was so lost in the point behind the actual story. It was supposed to be a prequel to SDFM and yet I saw no actual tie to it.

And yet MF is so popular... ironically, people often complain about the lack of action in it. I am one of those people who'd love to see more fights.

Quote:
I think we can chalk up the different opinions about Sheryl and Ranka due to, well, differing taste.
You like tsundere characters, I don't. So I guess yes; that about works it out. But we share a common dislike for Alto's characteristics being changed. But I will say that I preferred Ranka's personality in the series, for she was more open and interactive versus the movies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Except that, in Japan, only Alto is ever referred to as the protagonist. The girls tend to be referred to as the two heroines. As far as I know, anyway.
Took the words out of my mouth, karice. After all, didn't we have that discussion on Alto's character subforum too? I can't believe people still say another character is the main.

Alto is the main character, the protagonist, and the hero. It is his story that we are viewing. And the movies downplay it to a point where a viewer would go "this is who's story again?" That is why I dislike it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
I still want to fold a Ghost V9 to where Alto is by the end of the movie.

Eheheheheh...
You don't have to. For us AR fans, at least the ones really devoted like myself, he took a death nap at the end of the movie due to karma, having confessed to the wrong girl, and we'll never see him again. He got what he deserved for choosing the wrong path. We prefer TV!Alto. He was very different. Movie!Alto was a waste of screen time, as he had little development that truly shined through. Then he goes and scraps all of his development just to do a kabuki dance in the sky and create and Aquarion-centre-mixed-with-Zero crappy ending. What an epic fail. So you don't need a Ghost V-9 to take out Alto, he's already dead after the movie to AR fans. TV!Alto lives on.
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Old 2012-09-09, 07:55   Link #3871
Ozuma-Rii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Alto is the main character, the protagonist, and the hero. It is his story that we are viewing. And the movies downplay it to a point where a viewer would go "this is who's story again?" That is why I dislike it.



You don't have to. For us AR fans, at least the ones really devoted like myself, he took a death nap at the end of the movie due to karma, having confessed to the wrong girl, and we'll never see him again. He got what he deserved for choosing the wrong path. We prefer TV!Alto. He was very different. Movie!Alto was a waste of screen time, as he had little development that truly shined through. Then he goes and scraps all of his development just to do a kabuki dance in the sky and create and Aquarion-centre-mixed-with-Zero crappy ending. What an epic fail. So you don't need a Ghost V-9 to take out Alto, he's already dead after the movie to AR fans. TV!Alto lives on.
After what you said, I suddenly felt like folding a whole Itano Circus to Alto. NOW.
GRAHH ALTO SAOTOME WHY ARE YOU SUCH A LOSER IN THE MOVIES?!

"Alto, we decided to deliver you your birthday present!"
Alto: Am I going to be saved by Ranka?

*Witnesses Itano Circus and my Ghost V9*

I am sure he is dead now~
TV!Alto is pleased that his wussy counterpart is killed.
A death nap is too easy on him.
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Old 2012-09-09, 07:55   Link #3872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Sheryl--the big brother/sister mentor of Ranka, and overall supporting the development of Alto and Ranka. Gets little plot development, if you want a literary analysis I would say static, since she mostly stays the same, because she does not need it as the role of the supporter

This is purely my opinion though...
I don't have any intentions on resurrecting the dead horse only to beat it down again (ah, it looks like someone's already did that) but really, there's a difference between static character development and one that's being skimmed over due to character dislike, or simply being more in focus with other characters (in this case, Alto and Ranka) I think you gave her character too little credit.

Many things have been said about Sheryl's character development that you can easily find reference so I won't get into it(the ensuing discussions that followed after Ghostlightning's good post are a good read). What I did find most fascinating though, was how the progression of Sheryl's character had caused a dramatic shift fandom perceptions of her; for example, in its peak back in 2008, Livejournal itself was a haven for Ranka fans, with poll numbers conducted heavily against Sheryl. However, by the near end of the series, the results were overturned: it was now Sheryl who had the upper hand, and from the comments, many fans who had once harboured dislike for her evidently had a change of heart. If you ask, you'll find that a few Sheryl fans had the same experience as well (myself included).

I believe Ranka was still popular - but the shift in people's perceptions of Sheryl was most dramatic during the airing of the latter half of the series: where Sheryl's character underwent a significant turning point. And on the other end of the spectrum, Ranka's own popularity suffered only after Episode 20. It was amazing to watch, but hey, I did recall defending her and blergh, Westlo and the others weren't having any of it.

You could argue that the "fanservice" do play a part in her upsurge in popularity, but I'd give most of the credit to, simply put, good character development.

(It helps also, if you're watching the series on a weekly basis, as opposed to devouring it at one go: that's possibly a reason why you thought she was lacking. It's the #1 reason why people tend to overlook details lol)

Quote:
You may like to know that even Sheryl admitted that she lost during Klan Klan's private psychologist session with Alto in episode 23 (or was it 24? I cannot remember).
There was an article that was posted about this earlier (Karice, were you the one who translated this? Would you be able to post it? ) I believe this conversation was intentionally constructed to misled Sheryl to jumping into conclusions, as the topic being discussed between Klan and Alto was completely different from what she, and some of us understood it to be: they were both referring to Alto's "love for Frontier", not anyone in general. I myself was a little unsure of this scene, until the translations cleared things up.

This isn't referring to you, but it's astounding how reluctant some fans are in accepting this clarification in favor of their bias, even with a direct reference from the source itself. Shipping is a passionate activity, but sometimes, yes, Japanese Animu encourages you to see past surface value and think.
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Old 2012-09-09, 08:29   Link #3873
Ozuma-Rii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesie View Post
I don't have any intentions on resurrecting the dead horse only to beat it down again (ah, it looks like someone's already did that) but really, there's a difference between static character development and one that's being skimmed over due to character dislike, or simply being more in focus with other characters (in this case, Alto and Ranka) I think you gave her character too little credit.

Many things have been said about Sheryl's character development that you can easily find reference so I won't get into it(the ensuing discussions that followed after Ghostlightning's good post are a good read). What I did find most fascinating though, was how the progression of Sheryl's character had caused a dramatic shift fandom perceptions of her; for example, in its peak back in 2008, Livejournal itself was a haven for Ranka fans, with poll numbers conducted heavily against Sheryl. However, by the near end of the series, the results were overturned: it was now Sheryl who had the upper hand, and from the comments, many fans who had once harboured dislike for her evidently had a change of heart. If you ask, you'll find that a few Sheryl fans had the same experience as well (myself included).

I believe Ranka was still popular - but the shift in people's perceptions of Sheryl was most dramatic during the airing of the latter half of the series: where Sheryl's character underwent a significant turning point. And on the other end of the spectrum, Ranka's own popularity suffered only after Episode 20. It was amazing to watch, but hey, I did recall defending her and blergh, Westlo and the others weren't having any of it.

You could argue that the "fanservice" do play a part in her upsurge in popularity, but I'd give most of the credit to, simply put, good character development.

(It helps also, if you're watching the series on a weekly basis, as opposed to devouring it at one go: that's possibly a reason why you thought she was lacking. It's the #1 reason why people tend to overlook details lol)



There was an article that was posted about this earlier (Karice, were you the one who translated this? Would you be able to post it? ) I believe this conversation was intentionally constructed to misled Sheryl to jumping into conclusions, as the topic being discussed between Klan and Alto was completely different from what she, and some of us understood it to be: they were both referring to Alto's "love for Frontier", not anyone in general. I myself was a little unsure of this scene, until the translations cleared things up.

This isn't referring to you, but it's astounding how reluctant some fans are in accepting this clarification in favor of their bias, even with a direct reference from the source itself. Shipping is a passionate activity, but sometimes, yes, Japanese Animu encourages you to see past surface value and think.
Oh, I am unaware of the Psycho session to be that.
Well, Klan, you had me.
But he did mention that he'd want to... do something to Ranka, eh? (Kill, I know... just can't say it)

Ah, well.
BTW, if you'd like a justification of Ranka's character, you can view my counter to magnuskn.

If I am being biased please inform me so that I can either a) Clarify or b) dismiss my argument.
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Old 2012-09-09, 08:29   Link #3874
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I can't say much for the series polls, but the movie polls were inconsistent. I think a lot of people forgot about MF whilst waiting for the movies. Not many actually watched the movie that were originally dedicated to the series. So the polls for it are not overall popular, especially if you're looking for a review too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Oh, I am unaware of the Psycho session to be that.
Well, Klan, you had me.
But he did mention that he'd want to... do something to Ranka, eh? (Kill, I know... just can't say it)
This is a miscommunication between the character and the viewer. He admits that he would kill Ranka if it came down to choosing Frontier or Ranka. Alto is a very duty bound person. It would kill him inside to kill Ranka but as a soldier, he had to do what was right for all of Frontier. That is the cross of a warrior: to kill the one he loves.

But I disagree that Alto doesn't admit his love for Ranka in that scene, after all; he talks of how he came to join the S.M.S. just moments before and admits his feelings for her.
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Old 2012-09-09, 08:39   Link #3875
Ozuma-Rii
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I can't say much for the series polls, but the movie polls were inconsistent. I think a lot of people forgot about MF whilst waiting for the movies. Not many actually watched the movie that were originally dedicated to the series. So the polls for it are not overall popular, especially if you're looking for a review too.



This is a miscommunication between the character and the viewer. He admits that he would kill Ranka if it came down to choosing Frontier or Ranka. Alto is a very duty bound person. It would kill him inside to kill Ranka but as a soldier, he had to do what was right for all of Frontier. That is the cross of a warrior: to kill the one he loves.

But I disagree that Alto doesn't admit his love for Ranka in that scene, after all; he talks of how he came to join the S.M.S. just moments before and admits his feelings for her.
At least this proves that I did not screw my judgement...
Yep.
This is also one of the character development points. Alto, torn between himself and his job as a pilot.
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Old 2012-09-09, 09:03   Link #3876
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Alto, torn between himself and his job as a pilot.
You could say that, and yet, not quite in the context that you're thinking of. I recall Swampstorm being rather passionate about this subject, and might I invite him to offer his two cents on the issue, for the reason being that he simply loves to talk.

Trust me, you'll be pretty impressed with what we've come up with after dissecting this series for five years. Stay for the long run, and also, welcome to the forums.

(And Swampie, do not literally hand me 2c cents, because if you do, I will backhand you for your fail unfunnies.)

Edit:

Quote:
And while I go hang myself over you thinking that the movies and the TV are the same continuity.
Most of the shipping fire was put out when the Alto x Sheryl ship has long sailed in the movies, in all the major MF manga franchise, in all the light novels, basically in pretty much all the relevant universes - it's not very hard to see where the ship stands in the TV series; I'd say it's a good position to be in. There has been only one major objection to that, it being that they are all separate canons.

But it's not a very inspiring argument to pick up when most of the attacks consist of people hurling stones whenever any Macross canon world cements Alto/Sheryl as a pairing, as if doing so would give credit to the other ship, instead of using that energy to build the Alto and Ranka's case up.

Then again, why would they? There's nothing there to be built on. This isn't meant to be condescending, but when you have all these materials advocating the status of a pairing, and choosing to leave another alone, in this case, Alto x Ranka, then perhaps there may indeed be a message they're intending to spell out, and it's time to move on. But shipping will be shipping, it's a wonder how people don't tire of it... (oh cheesie, speak for yourself :E)

Seriously, fanon isn't as bad as it sounds.

Last edited by cheesie; 2012-09-09 at 09:56.
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Old 2012-09-09, 10:15   Link #3877
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Yeah, if Kawamori and the rest had planned A/R all along, it's strange how they never published at least a manga showing that ultimate resolution.
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Old 2012-09-09, 20:06   Link #3878
Ozuma-Rii
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Simple. It is not the economically profitable couple.
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Old 2012-09-09, 20:47   Link #3879
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I'm getting such deja-vu its ridiculous......
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Old 2012-09-09, 20:51   Link #3880
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Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Simple. It is not the economically profitable couple.
Riiiiight. And they would know that, even while the series was still running, eh?

"It's the circle of liiiiiiiiiife"...
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