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Old 2012-09-09, 11:07   Link #30461
battle22
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Even if Anime was bad, Deep inside I still want a Chiru ANIME XDDDDDD , Dont kill me, It would be intresting to see some stuff animated...Plus Anime made me intrested in the novels, It was crap but without it I would never know Umineko , So it's still special to me. XD
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Old 2012-09-09, 11:27   Link #30462
GabrieliosP
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I agree. I was introduced to Umineko by the anime and I'm glad because of it.

Well, since I started reading the novels after finishing the anime, I pretty much could handle the info dumps without problems, like the massive introduction of characters at the start of EP1.

The anime is good for getting familiar to the characters and the setting, that's why I recomend to people interessed in Umineko to watch the anime first.

Oh, and a Chiru anime SHOULD be done. I also still hope for it.
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Old 2012-09-09, 12:19   Link #30463
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The anime would be a more effective way of introducing people to the series if it didn't completely spoil the plot of the entire first half of the story.

I really wish that they'd just realised that there was no way they could condense Umineko arcs into a few episodes like they could with Higurashi, and just dedicated the first series to Episode 1 and 2 instead. Maybe then the anime wouldn't have been so awful...well, actually, it's DEEN, so they'd probably have found some way to screw it up.

It does kind of bug me, though, that so many people who saw the anime seem to just ignore any suggestions that they should read the VNs, as if there's some unwritten assumption that the source material mustn't be worth the trouble. I've seen so many people say things like "The concept of this anime was really interesting but they really blew it on the execution", and I always wonder, 'And you never thought of maybe seeing whether the original version, in the medium that it was originally designed to be experienced, might have executed it better?'
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Old 2012-09-09, 12:32   Link #30464
GabrieliosP
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There are many reasons for this: laziness, not knowing that they it's easily accesible (I once tried to make someone who watched Fate/stay night anime read the VN, and the person replied with 'I don't have the console to play it', FSN VN being for PC) and in some cases because of lack of translation (I have two people in my class that I got interested in Umineko thanks to Ougon, but there's no translation of the VN in my first language so they can only watch the anime).
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Old 2012-09-09, 13:27   Link #30465
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Who has watched the anime after reading EP8? I watched EP1 and EP3 and I found a lot of the important stuff... was actually there. With a really weird exception in EP1. But really, I gave up on the anime halfway through EP2 (when Kanon drew his blade). It took a second time through for me to get really interested in it, and by the time I found out about Witch-Hunt, I was already a fan.

But as far as an animated Chiru, I would watch only for certain parts, EP5's battle of Kinzo's study, EP6's 2nd Twilight Love Trial, and of course the wedding in EP6.

But I think most of that stuff will be cut down or not as visually exciting...
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Old 2012-09-09, 13:57   Link #30466
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
Even if Anime was bad, Deep inside I still want a Chiru ANIME XDDDDDD , Dont kill me, It would be intresting to see some stuff animated...Plus Anime made me intrested in the novels, It was crap but without it I would never know Umineko , So it's still special to me. XD
LOL Same here. Though I console myself reading the manga...

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
It does kind of bug me, though, that so many people who saw the anime seem to just ignore any suggestions that they should read the VNs, as if there's some unwritten assumption that the source material mustn't be worth the trouble. I've seen so many people say things like "The concept of this anime was really interesting but they really blew it on the execution", and I always wonder, 'And you never thought of maybe seeing whether the original version, in the medium that it was originally designed to be experienced, might have executed it better?'
Because once upon a time when you turned something into an anime you tried to improve it, not to worsen it. And often, if the series was ongoing you... diluted it, not condensed it (okay, there were cases of bad anime in the past too but they were a lot less than what I can see now).

As of now instead the anime are handled badly.

Instead than improving the story they just... jump on a successful story and force its plot into X number of episodes regardless of the result.
They don't even bother making sure they'll manage to follow the original story to its ending if the story is ongoing creating rather poor results.

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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
There are many reasons for this: laziness, not knowing that they it's easily accesible (I once tried to make someone who watched Fate/stay night anime read the VN, and the person replied with 'I don't have the console to play it', FSN VN being for PC) and in some cases because of lack of translation (I have two people in my class that I got interested in Umineko thanks to Ougon, but there's no translation of the VN in my first language so they can only watch the anime).
Yes, yes, yes. The VN aren't exactly well known and popular. I had to research what it was and then I've to explain it to the friends I tried to introduce to Umineko also assuring it would work on their pc and that it was really easy to make it work.

Plus there's to say the huge wall of text seems to discourage people who are willing to spend the same time on an anime marathon.

Well, in a way I understand them as, when English isn't your first language, it's really... heavy to read so much English text (in fact I'm suggesting to my friends to use the translation done in our language so reading it all doesn't seem that hard...).

Either way I doubt people will stop to be so reluctant to try the VN anytime soon.

Maybe in the future they'll be more popular but as of now they're unknown land for many people.
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Old 2012-09-09, 14:14   Link #30467
GabrieliosP
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Yeah, the language barrier is a problem.

If I weren't busy already with three things, I'd start a translation project of Umineko in first language.

Argh, so much projects, so little time.
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Old 2012-09-09, 15:16   Link #30468
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
Even if Anime was bad, Deep inside I still want a Chiru ANIME XDDDDDD , Dont kill me, It would be intresting to see some stuff animated...Plus Anime made me intrested in the novels, It was crap but without it I would never know Umineko , So it's still special to me. XD
It's okay, it's also my sinful wish to have a Chiru Anime XD. But well, if they are to handle it like they did with the Question Arcs, I'm not really sure.... I was also introduced to Umineko by the Anime, so it still brings back fond memories (god, that was one good summer), but I dumped it somewhere in the middle of EP3 (bad adaptation stinks even to someone who hasn't read the original). I'd heard everybody talk about the greatness of the visual novel, and watched some parts on YouTube, so I just had to buy it! It was really exciting because it was my first (and greatest) VN.

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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
Well, since I started reading the novels after finishing the anime, I pretty much could handle the info dumps without problems, like the massive introduction of characters at the start of EP1.
The airport scene (which for some reason wasn't in the anime) is one of the best scenes in Umineko. Ryukishi's character can be stupid better than anyone else.

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The anime is good for getting familiar to the characters and the setting, that's why I recomend to people interessed in Umineko to watch the anime first.
Nope. I disagree here. You can't get familiar to the characters. You can't remember names and who is whose uncle by the anime. It's insane. And you can't learn the names of the Seven Sisters of Purgatory. I've tried introducing some of my friends to Umineko using the Anime (because their lazy asses are to lazy to read anything, even a PC game, oh, the times we live in...), and as far as they're concerned, Umineko's characters are Battler, Beatrice, Maria. Genji???? Who's Genji??? Gohda???? Okay, are you sure we're talking about the same thing here? And worst of all.... Bernkastel???? Ah, you mean that chick who looked like Rika!

But that's not the worst part. I'd definitely reccomend against watching the anime before reading the VN, because that way you miss all the fun. You can't remember closed rooms, let alone TRYING to solve them, you don't even remember what the fuck happened. You just think "oooh, that guy's bleeding in the bathtub, cool!", while that should be something about chains, and locks, and master keys.... Argh! (And don't get me started on trollfaces. Maria looks like a freakin' monkey!)

Quote:
Oh, and a Chiru anime SHOULD be done. I also still hope for it.
A Chiru anime is what I desire, regardless. I know I've expanded my hatred for the anime for two freakin' paragraphs, but I still want a Chiru one. Animated is just different.

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
But I think most of that stuff will be cut down or not as visually exciting...
They had a hug. They didn't use it. Beatrice doesn't cry. She just sounds as though her ass is itching a bit. I dread just in the thought of what they could do to Shannon/Kanon duel. It might as well be a *shoot*, hell no, Kanon is dead, the end.

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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
If I weren't busy already with three things, I'd start a translation project of Umineko in first language.
I'd also really try to do that if Onscripter could read greek characters.

(But I think it's better this way, English is an 'easy' language. Most lines in Umineko would sound terribly stupid in greek....)
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Old 2012-09-09, 15:21   Link #30469
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There's a ONScripter close that can support unicode characters, including Greek. It's named Onslaught, and it can be found here.

It's still in the beta version, but it's better than nothing.
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Old 2012-09-09, 18:53   Link #30470
Myname
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So from what I can understand of the last novel, there's no actual solution to the murders... I don't know if the Battler-family theory was supposed to be the answer and Ange didn't want to believe it (And Battler didn't want her to know, just let her keep living in denial and believe what she wants) since it wasn't confirmed. Was this the point of story? It doesn't confirm or deny any theory so fans can keep discussing it?

All this meta-world and meta-meta-world stuff is very confusing. I don't know what's "real" and which are just someone's delusions.

Like Yasu creating Kanon, Shannon, Beatrice. So in the "real" world s/he was just playing different roles at the same time? Were their relationships with George and Jessica "real" or was it just part of one of the game's fake realities? I can't imagine how they wouldn't know they were just Yasu playing different roles. I mean Jessica lives in the same mansion as Yasu.

And the 18 people during the incident is only actually 17 people then?
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Old 2012-09-09, 20:06   Link #30471
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Hi, new posting in this thread but i've been following it since page 14xx (can't remember), and I just formed some theory about Prime that i want to take off my chest, and i've never seen it before... but i could be mistaken. Sorry if I make a grammar mistake but english is not my first language.

Kanon doesn't exist, it never existed. I know, Kanon is just a Yasu character, but I mean in pre-1986 Rokkenjima. Kanon was just a thing Jessica and Yasu made up. Let me explain it:
There's only one instance where he was perceived by outsiders, and that was at Jessica's Cultural Festival. As we know, Kanon was there because Jessica wanted to impress their friends with her "boyfriend". We saw how Shannon suggested Jessica to bring Kanon with her, but I think that scene was just a bit different, like:

Jessica: Everyone will bring their boyfriends and i don't have one! *gross sobs*
Shannon: ...hmmm.... I have an idea! Why don't you bring "Kanon" to the festival?
Jessica: Who's Kanon?
Shannon: *draws Kanon* him! Gimme some makeup, a wig and a coat and it will be done
Jessica: okay lol

I think that up to that point Kanon was just another imaginary friend of Yasu, so the scene where Genji puts the portrait and Shannon and Kanon discuss it, would be Yasu talking to herself, as nobody notes his presence.
After the cultural festival, Kanon went back to be an inside joke between Jessica and Shannon, and sometimes Shannon would sporadically dress up as Kanon just to fuck up with the Ushiromiyas, and then Yasu grew feelings toward Jessica.
At the 1986 conference, Yasu got to decide between George and Jessica, but then Battler came in the equation and everything got fucked up, but basically Kanon was there because he would reveal his feelings towards Jessica, saying something like "even since i started using this, i'm feeling a little different. I think i'm in love with you, and i want to be Kanon for you forever" or something.
So, this is my first theory, what do you think everyone?
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Old 2012-09-09, 22:09   Link #30472
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Quote:
So from what I can understand of the last novel, there's no actual solution to the murders... I don't know if the Battler-family theory was supposed to be the answer and Ange didn't want to believe it (And Battler didn't want her to know, just let her keep living in denial and believe what she wants) since it wasn't confirmed. Was this the point of story? It doesn't confirm or deny any theory so fans can keep discussing it?
This was Ryukishi's intention, yes. He also seems to be trying to make some point that people making a game out of trying to find the truth behind a crime is somehow immortal or wrong.

Quote:
All this meta-world and meta-meta-world stuff is very confusing. I don't know what's "real" and which are just someone's delusions.
The Meta-World is up to interpretation. There seem to be stories written by 'Beatrice' and Tohya that correspond to the Gameboards of Episode 1-6 atleast, but they don't seem to 100% match up to the actual episodes; they sure as much don't contain the Meta-World as "written scenes." Whether the Meta-World is in people's minds, a real dimension, or a metaphysical metaphor is up to you.

However, if you choose to believe it's in people's minds, it seems the majority of the Meta-World is Tohya remembering things and writing stories based on what he can recall, and EP8 would be Ange's mind and her weighing what she really wanted and stuff. EP7...uh, I don't know, Will is a random Witch Hunter fan who's not an asshole goat?

Quote:
Like Yasu creating Kanon, Shannon, Beatrice. So in the "real" world s/he was just playing different roles at the same time? Were their relationships with George and Jessica "real" or was it just part of one of the game's fake realities? I can't imagine how they wouldn't know they were just Yasu playing different roles. I mean Jessica lives in the same mansion as Yasu.

And the 18 people during the incident is only actually 17 people then?
Basically. I think we can take from EP7 that the Jessica/George romances were real though, given their significance to Yasu's motivations and emotional problems. But in any case, yes, Shannon and Kanon are not real people.

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Kanon doesn't exist, it never existed. I know, Kanon is just a Yasu character, but I mean in pre-1986 Rokkenjima. Kanon was just a thing Jessica and Yasu made up.
A very valid theory! It has, however, been brought up in this thread before! Your reasoning works out, and even if someone else beat you to it, you came to it on your own, so it's still an accomplishment.

I, personally, don't agree with the theory, but I also have nothing wrong with it.
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Old 2012-09-09, 22:36   Link #30473
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Basically. I think we can take from EP7 that the Jessica/George romances were real though, given their significance to Yasu's motivations and emotional problems. But in any case, yes, Shannon and Kanon are not real people.



A very valid theory! It has, however, been brought up in this thread before! Your reasoning works out, and even if someone else beat you to it, you came to it on your own, so it's still an accomplishment.

I, personally, don't agree with the theory, but I also have nothing wrong with it.
So you're saying George and Jessica fell in love with Yasu's "characters" with full understanding that they are just "characters"?
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Old 2012-09-09, 22:48   Link #30474
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No, I think they thought they were real people. I like to think that their relationships are exactly as portrayed as they are in the stories; they were meant to show us Yasu's heart, and the 'image' of her heart is skewed VASTLY if we change details about her romance.

Yasu was able to keep people from finding out that she was both Shannon and Kanon, it seems. Presumably with the help of Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo. It probably helps that most of the time through the year, only one of them is working at the island at a time. It's only on special occasions that she has to juggle being both characters.
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Old 2012-09-09, 23:17   Link #30475
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However, if you choose to believe it's in people's minds, it seems the majority of the Meta-World is Tohya remembering things and writing stories based on what he can recall, and EP8 would be Ange's mind and her weighing what she really wanted and stuff. EP7...uh, I don't know, Will is a random Witch Hunter fan who's not an asshole goat?
This is not a theory, just a speculation, but in Ougon there's Will/Dlanor ending, which shows Shannon/Yasu telling a night story to 5y/o Ange about two Witch Hunters (not the post-1986 theorist) who hunt Beatrice if she tries to terrorize the children. Said witch hunters are Will and Dlanor. From this we can deduct Yasu!Ikuko (if that's your thing) imagined or wrote Requiem, or Ange imagined Requiem.

It's very unlikely this ending is canon, but IIRC Ryu was involved in Ougon development, so what if this was just a glimpse of canon?
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Old 2012-09-09, 23:39   Link #30476
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That kind of requires that Yasu was planning to murder people in 1985, which is almost certainly not the case since the trigger (Battler's visit) was an absolute surprise.

It's just a fun what-if, like the whole "Ange and Virgilia are 1998 doujinshi writers who make Umineko yaoi" thing.
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Old 2012-09-10, 03:34   Link #30477
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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
There's a ONScripter close that can support unicode characters, including Greek. It's named Onslaught, and it can be found here.

It's still in the beta version, but it's better than nothing.
Oh, thanks, I'll try that out.

Um.... Anyone got any idea how I can get this to work?

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And the 18 people during the incident is only actually 17 people then?
16!!!! Muahahahahahaha!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Joeyscraggy View Post
Kanon doesn't exist, it never existed. I know, Kanon is just a Yasu character, but I mean in pre-1986 Rokkenjima. Kanon was just a thing Jessica and Yasu made up.
I've also entertained this idea, but decided against it for many reasons (one of them being that Kanon is my favorite from the humans and I really don't want to believe that and other, normal ones).

There's also that scene with the goats in the Golden Land that try to deny Kanon's existence, and the best Jessica can do is say in red that her classmates witnessed Kanon in the cultural festival (I think Jan-Poo mentioned that a couple of pages ago). And well, that would explain many holes that Yasu's dress-up might create, like, how dum is everyone? But I still disgagree with it, nontheless.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
This was Ryukishi's intention, yes. He also seems to be trying to make some point that people making a game out of trying to find the truth behind a crime is somehow immortal or wrong.
I don't think that point was made in EP8. Then again, it's up to interpretation.

Quote:
Whether the Meta-World is in people's minds, a real dimension, or a metaphysical metaphor is up to you.
It is confusing either way whatever you choose to believe (except the real dimension, that stuff is the only way it makes 100% perfect sense).

Quote:
Basically. I think we can take from EP7 that the Jessica/George romances were real though, given their significance to Yasu's motivations and emotional problems. But in any case, yes, Shannon and Kanon are not real people.
I agree, Yasu wouldn't fret so much over just an imaginary character (I presume, because there's always a Maria-Sakutarou example to prove me wrong). But I think it's more easily acceptable if Kanon was a "real" person with actual ties to people.
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Old 2012-09-10, 03:46   Link #30478
Myname
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No, I think they thought they were real people. I like to think that their relationships are exactly as portrayed as they are in the stories; they were meant to show us Yasu's heart, and the 'image' of her heart is skewed VASTLY if we change details about her romance.

Yasu was able to keep people from finding out that she was both Shannon and Kanon, it seems. Presumably with the help of Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo. It probably helps that most of the time through the year, only one of them is working at the island at a time. It's only on special occasions that she has to juggle being both characters.
Why is only one of them working at the island at a time for most of the year? What's their excuse for the other one disappearing for most of the year?

I know Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo saved Yasu from the fall, but why would they go through the trouble of helping her with the split personalities and hiding them from George/Jessica? Shouldn't Nanjo (being a doctor) be aware that encouraging her split personalities and pursuing relationships with others (heirs to the Ushiromiya family as well) isn't good for her mental health?
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Old 2012-09-10, 04:42   Link #30479
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Why is only one of them working at the island at a time for most of the year? What's their excuse for the other one disappearing for most of the year?
They don't need one. The servants don't live in Rokenjima permanently.

Quote:
I know Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo saved Yasu from the fall, but why would they go through the trouble of helping her with the split personalities and hiding them from George/Jessica?
Genji is kinda furniture. And Kinzo's bitch. Plus I'm not really sure to what degree he offered his assistance. I mean, he did help, but mostly it should have been 'looking the other way'.

Quote:
Shouldn't Nanjo (being a doctor) be aware that encouraging her split personalities and pursuing relationships with others (heirs to the Ushiromiya family as well) isn't good for her mental health?
2 tons of gold. Your moral standards change now? No? Let's see what we can do about that... should we make that 5 tons?

No, but seriously, I don't think Nanjo knows about the split personality thing, he doens't even live on the island to begin with, so he wouldn't bother to learn the names of all the servants that worked there.
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Old 2012-09-10, 04:53   Link #30480
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Why is only one of them working at the island at a time for most of the year? What's their excuse for the other one disappearing for most of the year?

I know Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo saved Yasu from the fall, but why would they go through the trouble of helping her with the split personalities and hiding them from George/Jessica? Shouldn't Nanjo (being a doctor) be aware that encouraging her split personalities and pursuing relationships with others (heirs to the Ushiromiya family as well) isn't good for her mental health?
Servants hired from the Fukuin house work at Rokkenjima in shifts; they're not there every day of the year. In the TIPS menu in-game, it mentions how Shannon and Kanon just happened to both be on duty on the days of the family conference in 1986. There are other servants who work at Rokkenjima too and who just weren't on the roster for those days.

Well, yes...Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo didn't really do their best for Yasu. To be honest, those three are pretty shady people in some ways. They were okay with Beatrice 2 being basically imprisoned at Kuwadorian for her whole life, and with Kinzo treating her as the reincarnation of her mother. Yeah, we're told that Genji didn't like it, but it's not as if he did anything to stop it. Those three are really not the nicest and most caring people out there, and even when they have good intentions their judgement is not great. Genji, for example, seems to have thought that Yasu was better off with her family on the island...when she really, really wasn't.
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