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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 133 39.82%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 81 24.25%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 32 9.58%
7 out of 10 : Good 27 8.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 11 3.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 10 2.99%
4 out of 10 : Poor 4 1.20%
3 out of 10 : Bad 3 0.90%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.30%
1 out of 10 : Painful 32 9.58%
Voters: 334. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-10, 05:57   Link #1741
magnuskn
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I'll start off on this by saying she is not truly given a chance after the encounter to speak, for it is Brera who rescues her. This is a new person to her, one she's only met twice, a stranger whom hasn't spoken to her, and one that likely won't understand. After the encounter, all the immediate changes leave her baffled enough. She forgets all about it with everything else going on. Attach real life to your TV in this case and you'd understand that factor. But given that the only time she got to see Alto after the encounter was with Sheryl in the hospital, who is still ill to her understanding, and it likely wouldn't be good for her health to speak of such matters with them, as Sheryl might collapse from her illness (being as Ranka doesn't know what it is). But once again, she is distracted by things around her, as Sheryl starts to sing her song, they join in a duet, and finally, the government comes to claim her. After that, when is she given a chance without being distracted to actually tell someone? Never.

If she had, imagine what would've happened to her. She's gonna tell the whole fleet that she's somehow attached to the enemy trying to kill them all. I can just picture it now: prison or execution, and the second only being the extreme consequences. The government would then use her as a puppet (which Alto already disagreed to countless times) for their own measures. She would've been traumatized once again, forgotten the present (dissociative amnesia is caused by trauma), and caused worse problems for Frontier. Please don't go putting your foot in your mouth by saying "she should tell someone" because she honestly couldn't. The only person she trusted at that point that she saw enough to even do so was Alto, and the timing was never right until the respective episode in which she left. Remember for an instant here that her time with Ozma decreased to almost nothing and then he had to go into hiding, thus leaving her behind to deal with everything on her own.
You have this obsession with telling us that the government would imprison and torture Ranka, if her connection to the Vajra were known. That is factually not what happened in the series when it became known just a few episodes later.

She was in government care after her abduction for quite a while. She could have told them at any time what happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
This all started back in episode 13 with her desire to help those she loves in any way. What is on Frontier? People she loves. She wants to do whatever she can to help even if she is misled into those options. However, I will state that in real life, a change in command is not something you should question in the music business, it is likely the label company selling you off (for budget reasons) or changing their genre of music (in which case if you only do one type). For Ranka, she won't question it because it was likely to her that Elmo sold her off. We are given no proof that Ranka and Elmo spoke beforehand. So that is my argument. As for her songs: label companies usually give an OK to a song before it is released. There are countless songs that are amazing but are never released because the label company doesn't allow them. In this case, Grace is just doing what all producers do, and that's changing the song for the purpose it is intended for. If Ranka had a problem with that, she would've lost her job, possibly.
LOL.

Just LOL.

Please google what "argument" means. It's not "wild fantasy".

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Let me stop you for five seconds. She never said that nor implied it. She said her songs are for him. Her lyrics and voice, the person she is trying to reach out to, is Alto. That was their sole purpose from the beginning to her. It doesn't mean she doesn't want to protect her home or sing for it, but her songs and lyrics are always for another. It is quite obvious to see that she loves her home. Think of it this way: Sheryl doesn't sing for Galaxy or Frontier, her songs and lyrics are for Alto, and she decides in the end to use those songs written for Alto to protect Frontier. It is a mirror of Ranka in this respect.

Ironically, she couldn't have been the only one shocked about the heart. Alto was the one person who knew of the performance (shouting to Michael and Luca when another performance was needed) and personally shot through the heart himself. Seriously, what kind of non-romantic decides to perform something like that for a girl he doesn't have feelings for? If it wasn't a design from his boss, then it was his personal creation, and therefore it not only leaves Ranka in shock but the audience too.
So, I guess that was a love declaration by Michael, too, since he made the actual heart?

And, sorry, not buying that argument at all that she only wanted her song to for Alto but she still totally cared about Frontier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
You're in the wrong here. I'll explain why. Remember that you are not the actual character. For this exact episode, there was no initial proof that she was connected to the Vajra in such a way that her emotions affected them. That was never studied by anyone aboard Frontier. They said her songs were effective. Quite honestly, how would she have known that negative emotions would also cause them to appear? After they appear, it is just a vent of overwhelming emotions, given that her love has chosen another, her purpose for singing is being lost, her attachment to the Vajra, all the sudden changes, and a variety of other things that I won't state, but mostly that her heart is broken. Her songs are for Alto but he doesn't understand them. How shattering do you think it would be for you to realize that everything you ever did for another was all for naught? I think that would crush you too.

Ranka is not to blame for Michael's death. What could she have possibly done at that point to help? Her songs were already proven ineffective given her state of emotion so it was bound to make the situation worse. You lose that argument.
Errr, you can't declare "you lose that argument" without ever winning it. ^^

Yeah, I am a bit facetious about Michael, although not by much. Michael died because Ranka could not get it together to control the Vajra. Full point. That she actually did manage to get herself together shortly after his death is not helping her position any.

I am not blaming Ranka for unwittingly unleashing the Vajra larvaes on Frontier. She couldn't have known that they were there, she couldn't have known the exact effect her emotions would have on them.

But I do blame her for not being able to compose herself enough fast enough to stop all that bloodshed. Her whole breakdown over Alto is ridiculous in the first place. Just one episode prior she was still commiting herself to protecting Frontier but in the same episode ( if you include the end of ep 18 ) that she comes to terms with her feelings for Alto she becomes so damned obsessed that she has a full fledged freak-out? Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I would go over all the ways you are wrong in this but I doubt you'll listen.

One thing to note is the arrival of Ai-kun turned the atmosphere for the worse in that visit and conveying her original message would've failed. Having realized this, she left without stating her information. She is not to blame for Alto's misinterpretation of her feelings or motives, given that he should by now know her better, not like a stranger. Whatever he misinterpreted, it just adds to the war that he had feelings for her and watching her leave with another man off to some strange planet with questionable motives kills him inside. He should believe in her by now, given that they are friends. His lack of belief in her is handed right to whose side she's at: Brera Sterne.

I am to laugh at the fact you admit Brera was Alto's rival, given that everyone loves to say that neither fights over Ranka. You contradict that.
Actually I meant rival in the broad sense that they are competing as pilots. Also, as Brera wants Alto to stay away from Ranka, who is a friend of Altos, that is a non-romantic rivalry right there.

And, hey, if she wanted Alto to come with her, maybe she should have told him something more effective than "I want to bring Ai-kun back to his friends". If she thought that there would be no chance that Alto would come with her, why have the meeting in the first place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Not true in any way. She is feeling lonely and lost, trying to understand her thoughts and motives. After all, she made a big decision and now has to live with it. Your sarcasm towards the scene is ridiculous. By that point, she has already suffered heartbreak. Don't you think her reaction would've been different had she actually felt that?
Yep, that was a cheap-shot of mine. But, uh, I'd say there is a really good chance that she actually felt something, with Sheryl manifesting her song-powers and the Vajra network being what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I chop most of her control-ridden self up to the fact she's just finally remembered her real past and all the bad things that have happened out of her control. She was just a child but is allowed to blame herself for things that took place that long ago. But the pile of those crimes is a heavy burden. She is thus overwhelmed due to her mental insecurity and Grace easily takes over her mind under the pressure.
Come on, you Ranka people. Please pick an argument and stick with it. Either Ranka is a child, in which case her having a romance with Alto is highly inappropiate but she cannot be blamed for making tons of incredibly bad decisions. Or she is adult enough to have a romance but should also be treated as someone who has to take responsibility for her actions. You can't have her innocent and pure as the driven snow in regards to all of her misdeeds and an active competitor for romantic attention who should be treated seriously in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
I'll state that Ranka is unaware of anything that happened on Frontier while she was gone. The only encounter she had with the other two in the triangle was in the fold space, and thing seemed typical. I'll disagree to high hell that Alto chose Sheryl, but given the situation, neither girl knew the truth, and so neither is at fault for saying "I'll fight for him" when no words of love have been spoken to either girl in this respect.
Wait, I thought that they had gotten knowledge of each other in that sound space? Or was that from the novels? Argh, I am confused.

In any case, I'll concede that Ranka maybe didn't know about how far along Sheryl and Alto had gotten in their relationship. Which just means that her challenge still is silly. Only that she doesn't know that at that point. ^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
This is not entirely true. In respect to her character, she still needed time to figure out how she truly felt about Alto. After all, being a person who's never fallen in love with another besides a family member, the whole matter probably confused her. It had been doing that since episode 10 and continued to plague her throughout episode 12 and 13, until it finally hit her in episode 19. Just look at your character trying to discover her love for Alto; she was just as lost. Neither girl had been in love with a boy before, and both were thrown for a loop with it or how to convey it.

However, given the situation, it is not wrong for her to so-called "misinterpret" the embrace between Alto and Sheryl. After all, she walked in on what appears to be a romantic moment between them. It is actually Alto's fault, and slightly Sheryl's, for not stating his intentions or the reason behind the embrace. But he is clearly guilty when she runs away. And part of this is all Sheryl's fault, as she makes absolutely no move to help matters or explain the situation, just stares dumbfounded. How do you explain that?
And you miss my point entirely. By her own perception ( and that of many others, but that's viewer stuff ) Ranka had lost Alto to Sheryl. Which is why I said that she wanted to put distance between themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Episode 23 likely is the best proof of why she left Frontier, to discover her powers and connection to the Vajra and understand them. However, she did not expect those memories to be so horrid, a characteristic I find to be very human.
That has nothing to do with the fact that she left Frontier in a horrible situation, one which to Rankas best knowledge it had no way of getting out of.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
For the sake of not being banned, I won't curse you out; but I want to. That is a personal attack that was not needed, and I don't mislead. I state my opinion. How is that any different from you? So please shut your mouth. That is uncalled for.
Sorry, but I don't have to walk back from just simply stating the obvious truth. Look up your latest post just above and tell me that you don't do exactly what I told you do. You have a tendendy to take single sentences and write multiple paragraph answers to those, which makes it incredibly tiring to have a running argument with you, because responding in detail to those paragraphs produces huge post-monsters.
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Old 2012-09-10, 06:01   Link #1742
magnuskn
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
^Kags, you have stolen 90% of what I wanted to say from me...
I was planning on a grand counterattack, but I guess you lay down a heavy blow for me...

Well, gotta love how you talk around here, and nope, there is really no need to get angry over this (Well yeah I was both fuming and giggling at the post from magnuskn: Fuming over some parts, and giggling at the counterattacks I can make... I got a lot of weird stares from the commuters on the MRT)
Please bring some actual arguments this time. Y'know, facts, logic, all that stuff which real discussion revolves around.
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Old 2012-09-10, 06:58   Link #1743
Ozuma-Rii
Heya~ I am a Ranka-addict
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Singapore
Grand Counterattack

magnuskn...

I believe it is time for the grand counterattack.

私と君の決闘。私の力を見って!!

Wait. No. I see that this argument involves too many personal attacks to Ranka. I will change my attitude too.

All in the name of good sport, of course!
Also, may I take the liberty to just... well answer your points in Random order? I am pressed for time with my work...

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Yeah, it's not as if Ranka had been through months of war by this point, too and had coped pretty well with that most of the time. I forgot how they stuffed her in locker and just let her out to get her heart broken.
Now now...
I would like to emphasize on the worldly issues Ranka encounter compared to Alto, Sheryl. (No I am not going to use "and".)

Alto had a good family background and a good bloodline. However, he left his home and lived by his own since he decided to chase his dreams as a pilot. Having to leave alone since a young age means that he has matured way faster than what normal teens that age have to deal with. He had to deal with life's demands, and he naturally had to make decisions by himself during those years he lived alone.

Sheryl was a girl that lived in the harsh Galaxy, where the slums are abundant and living conditions were bad (from what I see, I may be wrong though, you Sheryl gurus may fill me in on the conditions there anytime). She was abandoned (?) and she had to face many worldly challenges too. She had to survive, and she had to make many decisions to survive since her young age. She was likewise, like Alto, forced by their lives to have to learn to make choices since a young age.

Ranka was different. She may have suffered from the trauma of having lost her family, but Ozma adopted her. At least she grew up having a father-esque brother. Her family was more complete, and judging from how protective Ozma is of her little sister, it would be very logical that she had to make few choices in her life herself. Ozma settled everything for her, and in Episode 5 (Miss Macross, correct me if I am wrong) Ranka mentioned that she did not like to be forced into the "prissy all girls school" that she had to go to because of Ozma. Judging from her character, Ranka may have been perhaps affected by either Ozma or her trauma that she grew in maturity much slower. Her growing into an independent, decision making woman was also one of the focuses of the series. By episode 21, she made her choice to make peace with the Vajura.


Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Come on, man. If you want to use a double standard on how the characters get to be treated, then don't expect me to take your argument very seriously. You can't have it both ways. When I say that Ranka is pretty weak-willed, you cannot say "No, she isn't!", then cite various examples where she is just that.
Sorry about that. I perhaps have not stated my point clearly. I was trying to say that Ranka was the resemblance of a normal human's will. She is not weak willed during Grace's brainwashing, I would consider her having went through lots of trauma before that. She already was on the verge of breaking down, as shown by her in episode 24.

"Is this all my fault...?" (Not a direct quote)

She was already emotionally unsure whether her song was hurting or helping, whether she had really caused the destruction and death of her family, and the fact that Grace was manipulating her. After she was shown all those clips from her past, she naturally broke down. This is not a display of weak will. This is about how she was able to take a catastrophic fact (to her). She acted the way any normal person would: Break down. During the high point of her sadness, she was exploited by Grace, by her false promises of "redemption" from the "bad" that she had "committed".

(Wait... did you expect a 16 year old, emotionally traumatized girl to go "No! I refuse to believe that! This is not true!"?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Because it was a crucial moment of revelation in episode 14? One which totally fell under the table for the protagonists, because Ranka did not tell anyone? If you care to remember, at that point the other people on Frontier ( outside of Grace ) thought the Vajra to be only brainless monsters, completely alien to human comprehension. Telling them "So, hey, their queen can talk to me and show me images" would have changed quite a bit of stuff, maybe even made Altos hate for the Vajra less virulent.
There was no data given regarding as to the reason which made Ranka not tell about what happened, and it would be hard to actually argue about this point, so I would personally say it is up to interpretation. I would personally interpret it as Ranka being traumatized by the incident, or simply telling it because she did not feel it was important.

Really, I feel this point hard to argue about. But yes, I have to agree with your point, if she did tell. Then again, what would showing pictures and being able to talk have to do with Alto hating the Vajura less? It has no effect in dampening the effect that the Vajura destroying Ranka's family's fact have on Alto... perhaps you can enlighten me on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I just can't spend several hours rebutting stuff line by line, which is what normally happens with LMK posts, where she just deluges you with gigantic paragraphs.
I am year one in the debating council/club/society, whatever you'd like to say it as, it is natural I cannot compete with the big shots that are here for more than two decades in the journey of life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
So, you are saying "She knew that she would succeed". How? Are you seriously suggesting that she was so deluded that she thought Brera could take on a whole planet of Vajra? If you care to look again, he was forced to hide after being chased around by the crapton of Vajra coming for him after Ranka was in their hands and only was saved because Grace showed up. Alto, Rankas original choice for an escort, would have been chopped sushi at that point.

And, please, show me real evidence that Ranka knew that her song would work. I mean, real hard fact evidence from the show. Please remember that just two episodes before she was not able to control the Vajra and they wrecked Frontier, killing untold numbers of people. Consider that the best Ranka could do at the point she chose to leave Frontier was project emotions at the Vajra, because she just learned to "talk" to them in the very last episode.
May I get screencaps and show you later in the night or perhaps tomorrow? I hate being hounded by my parents for watching anime.
Please be patient with this one!
Screw my nice manners. I am going all-out now. Give me time, and I will be back soon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Yeah, treating her like an adult person and telling her to control her emotions, like a true entertainer. Note that Alto didn't bother to tell her what was going on, either.

And, uh, many sane persons would actually go and ask. Or just quietly leave. Not saying that having an emotional episode is uncommon, but saying that "no sane person" would react otherwise? Please.
I would like to rebut this.
Now...
Your sentence is trying to say that being professional means being someone that has totally no feelings.
Quietly leave? She has not even been declared the loser yet. She was about to confess when she saw that sight on the balcony, further deepening the initial injury.
Why did Alto not bother? Perhaps... He was still unsure who he would choose at that point?
And many sane persons would go and ask... give me proof if you want proof from my statement. Nobody is going to take that seriously without evidence. (Playing the evidence war with me? Blast all my points to oblivion and I will too)
Being professional is one thing, being human is another. Ranka is not a professional by any standards considering her little amount of time she had to handle her military job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Wait, wait, wait. You are saying that every person has disassociative amnesia? That'd be new to me and, I guess, the thousands of people suffering from PTSD.

Furthermore, you are essentially confirming what I said about Ranka being weak-willed. Yeah, people made of sterner stuff would not broken so easily under Graces pretty obvious manipulation.
You have me on the offensive here.
You misunderstood: I was saying that to my knowledge, I knew that everyone has that defense mechanism. Memory lost is usually triggered by high emotional trauma, with varying results with each individual. Every person has it. It is whether it is triggered or not. I know my science. Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Because she knew that she had lost when she left Frontier in ep 20. I guess Alto is at fault a bit for going with that "you are both my wings" line, although I found it pretty unromantic from the standpoint of the girls. Even if it were meant as romantic, which it wasn't.

Anyway, Ranka could have shown that she had actually grown up due to her experiences by stepping aside and accepting with grace that Sheryl and Alto were together. Like superior!Ranka in the movie did. But, nope, she has to issue a laughable final challenge to Sheryl.
Laughable? How is that laughable?
Her experiences were made through her resolve for Alto: Protect Frontier? Alto. Make Peace with Vajura? Alto. Go on a possibly dangerous journey? Alto.
At the end, episode 25, Ranka also sang--for Alto.
Describe to me how that is laughable and I will decimate your comment if I can.
In fact, I think it would be more graceful for Sheryl to give up considering she already knew the confession, instead of still sticking around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
No, no it damned isn't. The very next day she tries to doggy-jump Alto in the hospital. That's not exactly deep trauma she was exhibiting there.
Hell, she was interviewed multiple times just before that and she either didn't mention what happened or, and I am again pretty forgiving in even suggesting that, forgot it due to her disassociative amnesia.
Refer to my previous answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
And you cannot just discount the factual evidence from what actually happened on the show for your own dreamt up interpretation of things. Ranka leaving Frontier has huge problems in the narrative, because her stated reasons for leaving ranged from "idiotic" to "suicidal" ( and that is based on the facts the character was aware of at the moment of her departure ) and the unstated reasons reason was quite clearly about running away from her situation on Frontier.
Let me do some research on this one if I can. I am pressed for time on this one also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Sheryl is one year older and makes her own decisions. Alto is one year older and makes his own decisions. I'm sorry if I expect her to behave on more or less the same level and not like a pre-teen kid who wants to push away all important decisions on her elders.
Answered. Case closed.
This point as been stomped to the ground harder than smashing a V9 at full speed into the Battle Frontier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Oh, boy. I actually have an exam coming up on Friday 21st, one which is very important. As such, please consider that I am taking time away from that to discuss Macross Frontier minutae. I won't keep that up, because I can't risk my future because of old BS like this.

That being said, here's a timeline of important events regarding Ranka, extrapolated from watching the relevant parts of the episodes right now. I find those events are crucial in understanding what Rankas inner motivations were, often opposed to her stated motivations:
Let the counterattack begin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
- Episodes 12-14: Ranka gets abducted by Vajra, yells a lot "Save me Alto-kun!", has an important encounter with a Vajra queen where she learns that the Vajra queen can communicate with her and show human illusions... and forgets to tell anyone else about that. The only explanation I have ever found which does not assume overwhelming stupidity on Rankas part is her disassociative amnesia. It was never really spelled out on the show, however.
Explained. It is not stupidity either. You are attacking the character.
If you want elaboration, here is it.
Ranka, when she was captured by the Queen, did get shown stuff, but the problem is whether she felt it was important or not. Please look at it from a perspective of a 16 year old too.
Episode 12. You are discrediting Ranka. She is often the one that needs saving. But in this episode, Ranka was the one saving Alto.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
- Episode 16: Ranka lets herself get bulldozed over by Graces management, changing up her songs. She agrees to use her music to protect Frontier against the Vajra.
She changed because she thought that she could help Alto in what he was doing. Check, Brera also approved of it. Ranka is still a "child" at that point of time, thus she was still being easily influenced. Refer to my analysis of their experiences and why they act certain ways at the top of the post, or somewhere near there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
- Episode 17: Ranka manages to completely torpedoe her chances at a relationship with Alto by behaving like a pre-teen kid. Alto obliges by totally treating her as such. She is shown as being insecure about her commitment to using her music against the Vajra.
She doesn't really want the Vajura, which are also living, to be killed. Thus her motivations were shaken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
- Episode 18: Ranka helps the fleet escape a big Vajra attack, stating clearly that by her own will she wants to protect the fleet.
Around this time she was also shown to suffer pain from the Vajura's deaths at that time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
- Episode 19: Ranka decides that, no, she actually doesn't really want to sing for her home, but only for Alto. Misinterprets Altos flying team making a heart as a personal love declaration from Alto.
Reasonable misinterpretation.
She started out trying to reach Alto with her songs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
- Episode 20: Ranka flips her shit about Sheryl and Alto having a moment and nearly destroys Frontier by exciting the swarms of Vajra larvaes which had hidden themselves in the sublevels. Can't control her negative emotions to calm the Vajra, can't work up any show of friendship when her best friend gets severely hurt right before her eyes, gets Michael ( and thousands of other people ) killed.
She did not cause Mikhail's death.
She could not control her feelings because she is not a hardcore professional singer like Sheryl. Ranka was but an ordinary human with feelings too.
It is not on her intent. She tried to help. In both morality and utilitarianism she is right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
- Episode 21: She finally manages to get herself enough under control the bring the Vajra towards her and get Frontier saved. Then ditches her responsibility for protecting Frontier and flees the fleet, after entreating Alto to throw his live away on a mission which, to the best of his knowledge, would be a complete suicide mission. Because, hey, Ranka just demonstrated in the last episodes that she can not always make the Vajra love her. Nope, she runs off with Altos biggest rival and leaves the fleet in a ditch.
However, she has also demonstrated many times in the past that she could. Reasonable.
She is NOT, I repeat, NOT ditching her responsibilities. She took it up formlessly when she went to the Vajura Planet. And Brera was her escort because Brera is up to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
- Episode 22: Feels Sheryl and Alto making love. ^^
Overruled. And makes this part completely pointless. It is not explicitly stated in the anime nor is it even mentioned nor hinted. As you said... Provide me evidence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
- Episode 23: Gets to Planet Vajra and, thankfully for her, contact works out. Until it doesn't and she gets abducted by the Vajra. Hey, I wonder what would have happened to Alto at this point, with him not being the super haxx cyber ninja that Brera is? Or even Brera, if godmode Grace would not have shown up. Well, anyway. Ranka also states that she wants to persuade the Vajra to make peace with Frontier, which at least gives her a better outward motivation than what she stated to Alto, about just wanting to take Ai-kun back to his family.
Do not "what if". It is a fact Brera was chosen, thus you should talk from the standpoint of Brera. And Grace was not "godmode". Her starting motivation was part of this motivation as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
- Episode 24: Ranka gets super-easily turned toward evil purposes by Grace screwing with her mind and begins using her powers against her home.
Countered till no end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
- Episode 25: Things perfectly fall into place for Ranka to allow her to return home and not be hung from the highest tree as a traitor. She also saves Sheryl's life, redeeming herself somewhat. She then petulantly refuses to be graceful and not pursue Alto anymore, wasting that redemption. Le sigh.
She did not have to "redeem" herself in any way, since she started out with good motive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I now could give a point-by-point rebuttal to your post, but that will lead to more time-consuming nitty-gritty, and I'd like more to establish some fundamentals here about how I believe Rankas motivations were constituted.

So, to summarize, three main motivations seem to have guided her actions.

1.) Her stated intention of making peace between humans and Vajra. Not much to elaborate on that point, although I think that you are overstating her connection to the Vajra. At the point she made the decision to leave Frontier, she only knew that they responded to her. And not always positively. Direct communication on the "talking" level still was waaaay beyond Rankas means. Making her mission one taken on a hunch, with extremely low survival odds.
2.) Putting some distance between herself and Alto. She very obviously believed that Alto had chosen Sheryl, which resulted in her emotional breakdown. Which was Rankas own damned fault for a.) misinterpreting the relatively benign "embrace" on that rooftop and b.) suddenly focusing all of her own motivations on wanting a romance with Alto.
3.) Getting away from the responsibility of protecting Frontier. She said it herself. Multiple times. She could not deal with the pressure anymore.

So, basically Ranka convinced herself that, yeah, 100% surely the Vajra would totally welcome her and not kill her when she'd suddenly would show up at their home planet. Grantedly, that would have worked out, but the basis on which she took that decision was pulled right out of her ass. Factual evidence, as seen in the episodes just prior, showed that she could not be 100% sure that everything would work out. I'd personally say it was a total crapshoot. That things fell into place for her was not assured (realistically seen, of course in storytelling terms things were pretty much guaranteed to).

And, unless someone can present me actual evidence from the show to the contrary, Ranka totally left Frontier in a ditch. I repeat from my last post: She had no evidence that Luca had built better communication countermeasures, no evidence that the new munitions were available to Frontiers pilots, no evidence that Sheryl would suddenly develop singing powers equal to her own. She left people to their deaths and just hoped that her suicidal mission would work out.
You are using the benefit of not knowing. I shall use that too.
She had no evidence that Grace was the enemy.
She had no evidence that she would be controlled.
So... third point overruled. She did not leave her people to their deaths, this statement is made on the basis that Ranka is the president of Frontier. Alright, fine, if the humans were "her" people, the Vajura were "her" people too. She is in the area of gray morality here, when you look closely. You are treating the Vajura as if they are non-living.

Total crapshoot is an extreme description. Are you that sure it wouldn't work out?
She had no evidence it wouldn't work out.
Then again, she also had no evidence it would. It sorta balances out.

Being unable to stand up to the pressure, the action that she takes after that was not running away though. It had Alto--and indirectly, Frontier's--interests in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Ranka is immature, true. But she must also be monumentally stupid to not ascribe her motives of maliciousness or at least severe neglect in how she treated her own responsibilities to her home, friends and family. And that is the kindest thing I can say about her in that regard, which is truly sad.
Your perception. Then again, are the Vajura not living to you?
I am saddened by your description of her.
Ranka has sympathy for her enemy, or perhaps not even her enemy
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Old 2012-09-10, 07:38   Link #1744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Now now...
I would like to emphasize on the worldly issues Ranka encounter compared to Alto, Sheryl. (No I am not going to use "and".)

Alto had a good family background and a good bloodline. However, he left his home and lived by his own since he decided to chase his dreams as a pilot. Having to leave alone since a young age means that he has matured way faster than what normal teens that age have to deal with. He had to deal with life's demands, and he naturally had to make decisions by himself during those years he lived alone.

Sheryl was a girl that lived in the harsh Galaxy, where the slums are abundant and living conditions were bad (from what I see, I may be wrong though, you Sheryl gurus may fill me in on the conditions there anytime). She was abandoned (?) and she had to face many worldly challenges too. She had to survive, and she had to make many decisions to survive since her young age. She was likewise, like Alto, forced by their lives to have to learn to make choices since a young age.

Ranka was different. She may have suffered from the trauma of having lost her family, but Ozma adopted her. At least she grew up having a father-esque brother. Her family was more complete, and judging from how protective Ozma is of her little sister, it would be very logical that she had to make few choices in her life herself. Ozma settled everything for her, and in Episode 5 (Miss Macross, correct me if I am wrong) Ranka mentioned that she did not like to be forced into the "prissy all girls school" that she had to go to because of Ozma. Judging from her character, Ranka may have been perhaps affected by either Ozma or her trauma that she grew in maturity much slower. Her growing into an independent, decision making woman was also one of the focuses of the series. By episode 21, she made her choice to make peace with the Vajura.
Okay, so your whole argument here rests on the basis that Ranka is mentally too weak and immature to be held accountable for her own decisions? Why should anybody take her declarations of affection towards Alto seriously, then?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Sorry about that. I perhaps have not stated my point clearly. I was trying to say that Ranka was the resemblance of a normal human's will. She is not weak willed during Grace's brainwashing, I would consider her having went through lots of trauma before that. She already was on the verge of breaking down, as shown by her in episode 24.

"Is this all my fault...?" (Not a direct quote)

She was already emotionally unsure whether her song was hurting or helping, whether she had really caused the destruction and death of her family, and the fact that Grace was manipulating her. After she was shown all those clips from her past, she naturally broke down. This is not a display of weak will. This is about how she was able to take a catastrophic fact (to her). She acted the way any normal person would: Break down. During the high point of her sadness, she was exploited by Grace, by her false promises of "redemption" from the "bad" that she had "committed".

(Wait... did you expect a 16 year old, emotionally traumatized girl to go "No! I refuse to believe that! This is not true!"?)
And again, if your whole argument is that Ranka is a weak-willed ninny who cannot be held accountable for her own decisions, why should we take her seriously as a character and as a romantic participant in that weak triangle we got? I am pretty tired of the double standard Ranka fans apply to her on that account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
There was no data given regarding as to the reason which made Ranka not tell about what happened, and it would be hard to actually argue about this point, so I would personally say it is up to interpretation. I would personally interpret it as Ranka being traumatized by the incident, or simply telling it because she did not feel it was important.

Really, I feel this point hard to argue about. But yes, I have to agree with your point, if she did tell. Then again, what would showing pictures and being able to talk have to do with Alto hating the Vajura less? It has no effect in dampening the effect that the Vajura destroying Ranka's family's fact have on Alto... perhaps you can enlighten me on this one.
It would first off have been a big argument towards trying to establish peaceful relations with the Vajra. Up until that moment ( for Ranka ) and for until much later ( for most others on Frontier ), the Vajra were those huge monster who attacked Frontier without any bigger cause than territorialism.

Alto himself immediately switched sides and let go of his hate for the Vajra when presented with evidence of their true intentions, much later on in the series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
May I get screencaps and show you later in the night or perhaps tomorrow? I hate being hounded by my parents for watching anime.
Please be patient with this one!
Screw my nice manners. I am going all-out now. Give me time, and I will be back soon.
Sure. I'm out of the house until late evening in Germany in a few minutes, anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
I would like to rebut this.
Now...
Your sentence is trying to say that being professional means being someone that has totally no feelings.
Nope. Just someone who can control them enough to not totally melt down at such an innocent situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Quietly leave? She has not even been declared the loser yet. She was about to confess when she saw that sight on the balcony, further deepening the initial injury.
Uh, which initial injury? She was ( wrongly ) sure that Alto had chosen her, due to the misunderstanding with the sky-heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Why did Alto not bother? Perhaps... He was still unsure who he would choose at that point?
Or maybe he was quite sure, but didn't want to upset Ranka further? ^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
And many sane persons would go and ask... give me proof if you want proof from my statement. Nobody is going to take that seriously without evidence. (Playing the evidence war with me? Blast all my points to oblivion and I will too)
Being professional is one thing, being human is another. Ranka is not a professional by any standards considering her little amount of time she had to handle her military job.
She is a professional singer, which means sucking it up and doing your work ( being an entertainer ), even if you don't feel like it. That is exactly what Sheryl was telling her. Also, you wanting "proof" that not everybody has a huge public breakdown when s/he discovers that the person she loves is with another person? You really want me to hunt down personal experiences or something like that? Is your scope of knowledge of human behaviour that limited?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
You have me on the offensive here.
You misunderstood: I was saying that to my knowledge, I knew that everyone has that defense mechanism. Memory lost is usually triggered by high emotional trauma, with varying results with each individual. Every person has it. It is whether it is triggered or not. I know my science. Please.
Link or it didn't happen. If you want to yell "Science!", then produce a link to a study or at least a Wikipedia entry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Laughable? How is that laughable?
Her experiences were made through her resolve for Alto: Protect Frontier? Alto. Make Peace with Vajura? Alto. Go on a possibly dangerous journey? Alto.
At the end, episode 25, Ranka also sang--for Alto.
Describe to me how that is laughable and I will decimate your comment if I can.
In fact, I think it would be more graceful for Sheryl to give up considering she already knew the confession, instead of still sticking around.
Aaaaand Alto of course has no decision power, right? Even if Ranka did not grow even a millimeter in her leave from Frontier and still was totally obsessed with Alto, over all the other concerns, she still has to contend with the fact that Alto just isn't that into her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Refer to my previous answers.
Not buying your "everyone has it". At all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Let me do some research on this one if I can. I am pressed for time on this one also.
Sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Answered. Case closed.
This point as been stomped to the ground harder than smashing a V9 at full speed into the Battle Frontier.
If your answer was "Ranka is not fit to be a consenting adult, she is just a child, and should be treated like that for all her decision processes, which by the way makes her unfit to be in a romantic relationship", then, yeah, you just stomped something into the ground allright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Answered. Case closed.Explained. It is not stupidity either. You are attacking the character.
If you want elaboration, here is it.
Ranka, when she was captured by the Queen, did get shown stuff, but the problem is whether she felt it was important or not. Please look at it from a perspective of a 16 year old too.
Episode 12. You are discrediting Ranka. She is often the one that needs saving. But in this episode, Ranka was the one saving Alto.
Ep 12: Where did I say that it was excusively her who needed saving? Please quote.
Ep 16: How the hell can anybody who is not mentally damaged consider something like that not important? One needs to be in full-fledged apologia mode to dismiss this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
She changed because she thought that she could help Alto in what he was doing. Check, Brera also approved of it. Ranka is still a "child" at that point of time, thus she was still being easily influenced. Refer to my analysis of their experiences and why they act certain ways at the top of the post, or somewhere near there.
Yep, she's a weak-willed child, allright. Also disloyal to her mentor Elmo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Around this time she was also shown to suffer pain from the Vajura's deaths at that time...
Your point here is...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Reasonable misinterpretation.
She started out trying to reach Alto with her songs.
Once again, your point here is what exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
She did not cause Mikhail's death.
She could not control her feelings because she is not a hardcore professional singer like Sheryl. Ranka was but an ordinary human with feelings too.
It is not on her intent. She tried to help. In both morality and utilitarianism she is right.
Yeah, yeah, I get it, she's a weak-willed ninny who cannot be relied upon. I really didn't think that this would be the "ideal Ranka" which was so worshipped by her fans, but there you go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
However, she has also demonstrated many times in the past that she could. Reasonable.
She is NOT, I repeat, NOT ditching her responsibilities. She took it up formlessly when she went to the Vajura Planet. And Brera was her escort because Brera is up to it.
You haven't disproven anything here. Not a thing. How about you try to refer a bit to the points I made about what Ranka knew at the point of her departure and how that factors into her responsibilities?

But, ah, I forgot that Ranka cannot be held accountable for anything, because she is puuuure and innoceeeeent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Overruled. And makes this part completely pointless. It is not explicitly stated in the anime nor is it even mentioned nor hinted. As you said... Provide me evidence.
Yeah, it was kind of a cheap-shot. Although she does feel something at the time of Sheryl and Alto being together, as evidenced from her own dialogue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Do not "what if". It is a fact Brera was chosen, thus you should talk from the standpoint of Brera. And Grace was not "godmode". Her starting motivation was part of this motivation as well.
But it was Rankas intent to talk Alto into being her escort, so she should have factored his capabilities in. Brera himself wasn't enough to keep the Vajra at bay.

And Grace pretty surely was in sort of a "godmode". How the hell did she manage to survive the next wave of that planet full of Vajra? In any case, that actually is irrelevant to the rest of the argument here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Countered till no end.
Innocent as the pure driven snoooooow. I.e. not actually fit for adult relationships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
She did not have to "redeem" herself in any way, since she started out with good motive.
You wanna tell this to the families of the thousands of victims of the Vajra attacks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
You are using the benefit of not knowing. I shall use that too.
She had no evidence that Grace was the enemy.
She had no evidence that she would be controlled.
So... third point overruled. She did not leave her people to their deaths, this statement is made on the basis that Ranka is the president of Frontier. Alright, fine, if the humans were "her" people, the Vajura were "her" people too. She is in the area of gray morality here, when you look closely. You are treating the Vajura as if they are non-living.

Total crapshoot is an extreme description. Are you that sure it wouldn't work out?
She had no evidence it wouldn't work out.
Then again, she also had no evidence it would. It sorta balances out.

Being unable to stand up to the pressure, the action that she takes after that was not running away though. It had Alto--and indirectly, Frontier's--interests in mind.
And you are ignoring the factual points I brought up of the situation Frontier would be left in during her absence. No surprise.

She left Frontier defenseless, to the best of her knowledge. But, hey, she is only a child in your interpretation, higher cognitive functions therefore do not apply, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Your perception. Then again, are the Vajura not living to you?
I am saddened by your description of her.
Ranka has sympathy for her enemy, or perhaps not even her enemy
The Vajra are living beings. Beings who chose to invade and kill and maim, without trying to otherwise communicate. So, yeah, I hold them in low esteem.
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Old 2012-09-10, 07:50   Link #1745
Ozuma-Rii
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I am about-ready for the next wave of attack.
And I did not anticipate your needing of the link, but I will, ok, just give me like an hour or so.
And your sarcasm will be dismantled on my watch. Trust me. I am legion.

Provided that the mods give me a chance to launch the attack that is...

Wait... can you please wait till tomorrow afternoon? Then I will have a lot of free time to post back. Meanwhile, you may keep giving your opinions, I will try to counter. Let me emphasize: it is not because of her innocence nor her weak will, I have never stated that...
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Old 2012-09-10, 09:21   Link #1746
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I'm at the house of a friend until the evening anyway.
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Old 2012-09-10, 16:46   Link #1747
Ozuma-Rii
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I'm at the house of a friend until the evening anyway.


Scrap it. Give me one month and I will give you an essay with all the screencaps, of every single episode, and counter to point.
One month of ceasefire, and Ozuma of the rebellion will be back on this thread.
Meanwhile, fire what you have at me, I will answer them all duly in one month's time.
That way, it will be a win-win situation, as this is the hot time for the EOYs and we have to get over what reality demands first.
So long. When I am back, be prepared to counterattack.
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Old 2012-09-10, 16:58   Link #1748
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That should be fun. Well, in one month it'll be one week before my next exam, but I'll definitely make time the week after that.
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Old 2012-09-10, 17:00   Link #1749
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Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii View Post
Scrap it. Give me one month and I will give you an essay with all the screencaps, of every single episode, and counter to point
Oh... shit!

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Old 2012-09-10, 17:12   Link #1750
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Yeah, that, uh, reminds me of someone, too, now that I think about it.

But I hope excessive amounts of smileys won't be used.
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Old 2012-09-10, 17:58   Link #1751
Ozuma-Rii
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Yeah, that, uh, reminds me of someone, too, now that I think about it.

But I hope excessive amounts of smileys won't be used.

Excessive amount of smileys? Are you referring to BleachOD?
Nope, her debating style is rabid, I am not like her.

I just thought screencaps.would better facilitate evidence, I will also be citing medical documents from online.
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Old 2012-09-10, 18:06   Link #1752
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I see her reputation precede her...

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Old 2012-09-10, 18:10   Link #1753
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Ia! Ia! Ranka Ftang! <- Is all I have to say about that person. Everything more makes my sanity drop 1d10 points.
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Old 2012-09-10, 18:18   Link #1754
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Everything more makes my sanity drop 1d10 points.
Nyaruko fan, Maggy?

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Old 2012-09-10, 20:09   Link #1755
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'I wish you'd all effing shut it and move with me to Africa instead'... was what went through my mind, but as this wouldn't be helpful to the thread at all, might I suggest to the Ranka character thread instead, as it seems to be more fitting there.

I've been skimming through the thread, and reading about the final episode does bring back memories. I must've replayed Alto's salute scene to Sheryl in the end at least ten times, and it's still no less touching because I just melted into fangirl goo on the spot. (Heads up, Natsu. )
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Old 2012-09-10, 20:42   Link #1756
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'I wish you'd all effing shut it and move with me to Africa instead'... was what went through my mind, but as this wouldn't be helpful to the thread at all, might I suggest to the Ranka character thread instead, as it seems to be more fitting there.

I've been skimming through the thread, and reading about the final episode does bring back memories. I must've replayed Alto's salute scene to Sheryl in the end at least ten times, and it's still no less touching because I just melted into fangirl goo on the spot. (Heads up, Natsu. )
Correction. It was a salute to Ranka with her saluting back. The two fingered strange salute..
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Old 2012-09-10, 20:49   Link #1757
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Correction. It was a salute to Ranka with her saluting back. The two fingered strange salute..
Oh... snap! (lol)
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Old 2012-09-10, 20:57   Link #1758
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Oh... snap! (lol)
Don't get it wrong, I downloaded the episode so I know.
He holds up his palm, two fingers extended.
Ranka saluted back with two fingers extended also. The exact two fingers.
It was a strange salute, usually salutes are performed with all the fingers extended.
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Old 2012-09-10, 21:10   Link #1759
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Correction. It was a salute to Ranka with her saluting back. The two fingered strange salute..
Seriously?

Okay...

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Old 2012-09-10, 21:16   Link #1760
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Heh.

The Alto/Sheryl scene was a homage scene to Do You Remember Love, in reference to Hikaru's salute to his love, Misa.

People had posted a thorough step-by-step process of why it's impossible for Alto to have saluted Ranka as well, but the pictures had expired back in 2008 and I'd rather not pick it up.

It raised a big hoo-ha at the time it aired, but basically, both the English and Japanese speaking fandoms have come to the agreement that the salute was definitely for Sheryl.

Hm, I think I may have started something else here. At least it was on-topic.
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