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Old 2012-09-08, 09:39   Link #201
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
I ruled that possibility out since Madara is not the type of person who would give away his most precious belonging to a small child and then let that child live alone in a war zone. Nagato almost died several times in that period, if Madara were alive he would have raised Nagato himself, making sure Nagato will resurrect him as soon as he dies. And for that he would have trained him to use the rinnegan.
whenever nagato's life was in danger it was the rinnegan that saved him. perhaps madara knew that the rinnegan was it's own protection. also, if madara was the other masked man, then perhaps he and zetsu were watching nagato and just never needed to intervene since nagato and the rinnegan took care of themselves and madara was satisfied with their growth. then when obito was left in charge, madara made sure he would corrupt nagato and have him resurrect him.
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Old 2012-09-08, 10:35   Link #202
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by Shining Celebi View Post
Because there is no possible way that Kishimoto can resolve all the inconsistencies he has now presented. He has written himself in a corner, and we will just be expected to ignore whatever contradicts the final explanation, as we have many times before.

When you have people here claiming "well Tobi couldn't have said that/done that because then the viewers would know who he is so he had to lie" then that's bad writing, unless Tobi knows he's a character in a manga.

And finally, it's just dumb. It may be just my opinion, but the general feel and writing quality of Naruto seems to have declined enormously over the years, especially since the beginning of Part 2. I mean, it's a shounen - I'm not expecting a masterpiece, I have really low expectations, and I'm just reading it for a bit of pleasure, not for enlightenment or a great story. But more and more I'm starting to wonder if Kishimoto has just jumped ship and doesn't care anymore, and maybe makes his assistants or interns write the story. Too many things happen now just for fanservice or because it would be too hard to write it in a sensible way, because it would have required planning. As a great example of this, take the recent chapter where Juugo and Suigetsu are wandering around in the middle of nowhere and JUST HAPPEN to blow a hole open into a secret Orochimaru hideout they didn't know about that JUST HAPPENS to have a scroll with forbidden knowledge so dangerous it could be used to singlehandedly rule the world or whatever.

What?

EDIT: Regarding long-haired Tobi versus short-haired Tobi, I do expect an explanation for this one, and I think I've said before that maybe long-hair is Madara and short-hair is Obito, but remember that Kisame recognized them as the same person.


This is a good point that cannot be explained away unless Tobi was lying about Nagato for no reason or Madara wandered around eyeless for many years and Tobi took credit for what Madara did. Nagato should have been somewhere around 40, much older than Kakashi and Obito, since he belonged to Minato's generation.
except tobi wasn't "lying"…the author created a character who in the last few chapters admits that he has not cared and has been ignoring who he once was and has picked up the mantle/persona of uchiha madara. that means in front of a crowd, in a fight with konan, or by himself in a restroom somewhere that was his reality. which works for me cause the real madara who we know made plans to return to life anyway, didn't have to be on screen for his story/goals to be told. tobi did it for him (when talking to sasuke after the itachi fight, and talking to naruto in iron country). now that madara is here, we will have the dots connected. meanwhile, tobi, still not embracing who he once was, calls himself no one. so in my mind there is no confusion why obito/tobi fed konan that story. the same reason he fed it to sasuke and naruto. tobi was used to explain who madara was

speculating as always lol...
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Old 2012-09-08, 19:42   Link #203
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
I didn't see it that way, especially against Konoha and Minato. Of course he had his "Tobi is a good boy" acting, but when he gets serious he doesn't do stupid things like those who act out of hate or are "playful" like Orochi. Orochi died because of his stupid arrogance and "playfulness", while Tobi never even risked anything until now. I know that the mask can hide his emotions, and when Sasuke kill Danzou and betrays Karin we see his eye smiling, so can show some emotions. What i mean by brain washing is that i can't really imagine Obito becoming the Tobi who did fight Minato just a couple of years after his "death" without some serious brain washing being involved.
By "playful" I don't mean he was being goofy or being stupid due to arrogance though he did underestimate Minato more than once. I meant that he has a somewhat cocky attitude much like the actual Madara himself (better example than Oro). I was saying he's not some emotionless terminator, blindly carrying out the will of another like Kimmimaro.

Now I think you're right that the change in Obito's personality and ability is unnatural and probably a case of Came Back Wrong. He's twisted. I think it goes beyond him just learning from and imitating the original Madara. It really seems like the current Obito is a fusion with the memories and experiences of both Madara and Obito. I think Zetsu would be capable of making something like that happen.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
edo madara said himself that he died shortly after achieving rinnegan, but we also know he lived a very long time so perhaps 10 or so years is a 'short' amount of time to him? we may have to settle for that reasoning.
To me, that statement never really made sense. I mean, if Madara implanted his Rinnegan so that Nagato use it to resurrect him, and promptly died...how could the plan work? How could Nagato resurrect someone he never met or knew existed (since he seems to have had no recollection of how he got his Rinnegan as a child)? I don't think it's likely the real Madara died before Akatsuki was first formed.
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Old 2012-09-08, 20:40   Link #204
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Originally Posted by Shining Celebi View Post
Because there is no possible way that Kishimoto can resolve all the inconsistencies he has now presented. He has written himself in a corner, and we will just be expected to ignore whatever contradicts the final explanation, as we have many times before.

...

I mean, it's a shounen - I'm not expecting a masterpiece, I have really low expectations, and I'm just reading it for a bit of pleasure, not for enlightenment or a great story

...

Too many things happen now just for fanservice or because it would be too hard to write it in a sensible way, because it would have required planning. As a great example of this, take the recent chapter where Juugo and Suigetsu are wandering around in the middle of nowhere and JUST HAPPEN to blow a hole open into a secret Orochimaru hideout they didn't know about that JUST HAPPENS to have a scroll with forbidden knowledge so dangerous it could be used to singlehandedly rule the world or whatever.

First, just because you say and think there is no way does not make it true.

Second, if you have read all 600 chapters you would not be saying this.

Third, that is a good point. I wonder if that could be explained by the fact that Zetsu is made of nature energy and can therefore manipulate vast underground networks, oh I dunno like the ones used at the start of the war.


My most recent thought was regarding the Uchiha massacre. Something doesn't add up. All those eyes in jars Obito had... all that DNA... Seems to me that the creator of edoTensai also hasn't been revealed... and then there is the scroll under the uchiha building that holds the secret... does the sharingan evolve no matter who implants it, or did kakashi's evolve when obitos did?

Oh and thinking about how Obito changed personality wise, I would have to imagine that a convincingly wicked enough genjutsu could turn any young chuunins mind.

As far as who was who under the mask when fighting Minato ... I think it was Madara borrowing Obito's eye. If it was Obito, Minato should have been able to recognize his students mannerisms, but instead he identified him as Madara.

Anyways, I think the storyline is fascinating.
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Old 2012-09-08, 21:28   Link #205
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Originally Posted by beyondsaving View Post
First, just because you say and think there is no way does not make it true.
No, but anyone who reads it for themselves and sees how often it's happened before will know it's true.

Quote:
Second, if you have read all 600 chapters you would not be saying this.
I have read all the chapters more than once, and I watched the show up until the Endless Fillers.

Quote:
Third, that is a good point. I wonder if that could be explained by the fact that Zetsu is made of nature energy and can therefore manipulate vast underground networks, oh I dunno like the ones used at the start of the war.
WTF does Zetsu have to do with anything? I was talking about Juugo and Suigetsu.

Quote:
My most recent thought was regarding the Uchiha massacre. Something doesn't add up. All those eyes in jars Obito had... all that DNA... Seems to me that the creator of edoTensai also hasn't been revealed... and then there is the scroll under the uchiha building that holds the secret... does the sharingan evolve no matter who implants it, or did kakashi's evolve when obitos did?
The creator of Edo Tensei was the Second Hokage. I guess you missed that in your knowledge of all 600 chapters.

Quote:
As far as who was who under the mask when fighting Minato ... I think it was Madara borrowing Obito's eye. If it was Obito, Minato should have been able to recognize his students mannerisms, but instead he identified him as Madara.
So they swap their eyes in and out as needed? You think that's a good explanation?

What happened to Madara dying shortly after awakening the Rinnegan, which would have been done something like 20 years prior?
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Old 2012-09-09, 06:41   Link #206
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
By "playful" I don't mean he was being goofy or being stupid due to arrogance
We agreed on that one, since playing the role of "Tobi the good boy" was just acting for the akatsuki because he didn't want them to know that he is the real boss. But maybe there was more to it, if it turns out that Tobi has multiple personalities.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
though he did underestimate Minato more than once.
It's common to almost all ninja in this manga to underestimate the opponent. He was never arrogant in that battle, he acknowledged Minato's power whenever he failed with some move/jutsu.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I meant that he has a somewhat cocky attitude much like the actual Madara himself (better example than Oro). I was saying he's not some emotionless terminator, blindly carrying out the will of another like Kimmimaro.
I guess we had a somewhat different impression of Tobi, i think Tobi was never arrogant like Madara or Orochimaru. Sure sometimes he says something about Uchiha being better than others, or tells he is the fearsome Madara, etc., but his actions always show that he doesn't want to risk anything (in fact even at the kage meeting when he announces war he tells them that he himself is weak, so the kages should fear his organization and the 7 demons collected more than himself). Madara who plays with 5 kages and an army, Orochi who tries to fight 2 sannin without his arms, those are the really arrogant people, the ususal evil bosses who often die because of their own stupidity. I find Tobi a more interesting personality than those two.
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Old 2012-09-09, 11:13   Link #207
Ulquiorra
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Does anyone think any of the Kage are dead and we will see what Madara did next chapter?

It would be odd, but Kishi might have not wanted to take anything away from Obito by showing the aftermath of the Kage/Madara fight. Which was the correct move since Madara showing up last chapter was a surprise. Rather than something expected.
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Old 2012-09-09, 16:54   Link #208
Luminion Lancer
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Does anyone think any of the Kage are dead and we will see what Madara did next chapter?

It would be odd, but Kishi might have not wanted to take anything away from Obito by showing the aftermath of the Kage/Madara fight. Which was the correct move since Madara showing up last chapter was a surprise. Rather than something expected.
I think that's what he's planning. Since we did not see how Madara defeated the 5 Kage, it leaves a window open where he can stall the Naruto&Co. vs. Obito/Madara fight, probably as a breather since things have been moving along without giving the readers much time to absorb everything.

Though, I doubt Madara actually killed the 5 Kages themselves, especially since that would mean Gaara and Tsunade are dead and I seriously doubt Kishimoto would kill the both of them off-screen. Of the 5 of them, I put Oonoki and A as likely to get killed, even though I don't want any of them to keel over yet.
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Old 2012-09-09, 20:17   Link #209
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Does anyone think any of the Kage are dead and we will see what Madara did next chapter?

It would be odd, but Kishi might have not wanted to take anything away from Obito by showing the aftermath of the Kage/Madara fight. Which was the correct move since Madara showing up last chapter was a surprise. Rather than something expected.
I don't....tsunade received a charkra reboost which in my mind meant one of two things:
- she was about to go Ham and rid Madara right then and there or
- Madara ignores them and she heals all the other kage

Considering Madaras entrance this chapter, the Kages are probably not far behind...at least I hope they arent...
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Old 2012-09-10, 00:39   Link #210
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Tsunade go ham on madara? Lmao, in what alternate universe is that going to happen in?

Madara said he was going to go get the kyuubi, and he more then likely left without any confrontation. I doubt the kage wanted to make a sequel out of their asses getting kicked, i imagine they talked shit as he left about how they weren't done, then took a big sigh of relief when he was gone.

I don't really find the tobi character interesting at all anymore now that i know how lame he is, but in this next chapter i am interested in seeing how him and madara communicate with each other
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Old 2012-09-10, 02:53   Link #211
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I think Madara just used some speed technique to get there quickly, given how he arrived like a cannon. Probably just ditched the Kages, and they'll catch up when the rest of the army does.
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Old 2012-09-10, 11:16   Link #212
itachi-san314
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I think Madara just used some speed technique to get there quickly, given how he arrived like a cannon. Probably just ditched the Kages, and they'll catch up when the rest of the army does.
or he used kamui which would mean obito is indeed from his bloodline o0o0o0
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Old 2012-09-10, 12:21   Link #213
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or he used kamui which would mean obito is indeed from his bloodline o0o0o0
Or Kamui is a normal Sharingan technique, which is just not commonly known.

Something I just remembered lately: It was said, that Izanagi can only be used, if the user has a Sharingan and Senju DNA. But Itachi told Sasuke, that Izanami was developped against Uchiha's who were spamming around the Izanagi. So was there a generation of Uchiha-Senju breeding?
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Old 2012-09-10, 12:52   Link #214
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Something I just remembered lately: It was said, that Izanagi can only be used, if the user has a Sharingan and Senju DNA. But Itachi told Sasuke, that Izanami was developped against Uchiha's who were spamming around the Izanagi. So was there a generation of Uchiha-Senju breeding?
You can use Izanagi without Senjuu Goo, the technique only lasts seconds though and could only be used twice before the eyes needed to be changed (which begs the question as to why Izanami needed to be created at all since the technique can only really be used for the briefest of moments). With Senjuu Goo, though, the technique can last an entire minute (which was never really done until Danzou and Orochimaru decided that an arm full of Sharingans made sense). And, complete control of the technique requires a balance of Senjuu and Uchiha.

That being said, why the Uchiha didn't cannibalize the Senjuu generations ago is unknown (instead, they seemed to spend time cannibalizing each other). Presumably neither the Uchiha or Senjuu were big enough to do anything before the likes of Madara and Hashirama appeared, but that seems unlikely.
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Old 2012-09-11, 00:35   Link #215
MAX_COLA_POWER!
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Why do I have a feeling that the reason that Obito's crushed body looks like an old man with wrinkles is because either, Spot used Hashirama's wood jutsu in some revival style form, or maybe his involvement with the Rinnegan, like how it made Nagato all skinny and stuff. Anyhoo, I don't know what's sadder, Obito's reason for doing this, or the Uchiharem nega repping me for me having an opinion that doesn't praise their tragic Gods. Don't blame me that Kishimoto made your idols have the same emotion as a depressed wrist slitter who hates life for being so bright and colorful.
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Old 2012-09-11, 02:43   Link #216
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601 is out
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Old 2012-09-11, 02:49   Link #217
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601 is out
yep and need a discussion thread for it
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Old 2012-09-11, 03:13   Link #218
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chapter is out and it was great!
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Old 2012-09-11, 04:22   Link #219
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601 is the start of something epic!
I don't see Naruto winning, not at this rate. Kakashi better get on that Talk no Jutsu
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Old 2012-09-11, 04:43   Link #220
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...Holy shit, Tsunade is cut ...IN HALF?
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