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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 47
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 5 16.67%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 5 16.67%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 5 16.67%
7 out of 10: Good... 8 26.67%
6 out of 10: Average... 5 16.67%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 0 0%
4 out of 10: Poor... 0 0%
3 out of 10: Bad... 1 3.33%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 1 3.33%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-11, 13:45   Link #101
Dengar
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You're also assuming that the Earthers won't obliterate the Vegans entirely, or even worse, sentence them to continued life on Mars if given the chance.
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Old 2012-09-11, 14:07   Link #102
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So you are saying the one who is killing civilian left and right, destroying colony without and military power, attacking civilian city instead of military base, refusing the peace and want to kill every single human

Same as:

Someone who never attack civilian colony(even though they can reach them as we see from g3), try for peace and don't want to kill all of them?

In other word
Majorty of group_A want to kill everyone from group_b like shit = same as= Majorty of group_b that don't kill everyone anyone from group_a unless they need to(self defence).


Quote:
You're also assuming that the Earthers won't obliterate the Vegans entirely, or even worse, sentence them to continued life on Mars if given the chance.
Didn't Vegan have Feds leader in their own poket?
They can easily ask for great deal for their own side... oh wait they don't want peace...

Last edited by Gundamx; 2012-09-12 at 04:53.
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Old 2012-09-11, 14:32   Link #103
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
You're also assuming that the Earthers won't obliterate the Vegans entirely, or even worse, sentence them to continued life on Mars if given the chance.
No they would not, because as the show had shown us, not everyone in the Federation military blindly follow inhumane orders or they are able to reason out and not indiscriminately kill every enemy combatant they come across without reason.

Whenever Flit gave the orders to kill all their POW, Algreus (someone below him in rank) told him they can't do that, and Flit was not allowed to do anything. When Ezelcant ordered Zeheart to slaughter everyone in Olivertown, he went there and ''got started'' without batting an eye, and we have not seen anyone showing the smallest bit of remorse afterwards or even questioning such action.

When the Federation needed to infiltrate a colony to get intelligence on the Vegan's there, they sent a single person there to scout for the weapons, and only got the MS out in order to counter the Vegan's suits. When the Vegan's started out to attack and check the Federation's battle capabilities, they went ahead and destroyed an entire non-military peaceful colony instead of a Federation base. And no, this isn't the work of ''Ezelcant's personal task force'', we had not seen such a thing in the show at all, these were part of the Vegan military, following the plan and instructions that Ezelcant had given out for them to accomplish, and they did it without question.

I'm not saying all the Vegan's are monsters that deserve to be killed (I don't endorse genocide in any way) but at the same time, I have yet to see a single character on the Vegan military that is like Seric, or Kio, or Asem, or Woolf, or like Millias, or like Algreus, or hell even like Godrick ... people who while they will fight for their country, will still act like humans and not be all gung ho about killing everyone without question, people who will think that the other side is made out of humans as well trying to fight for what they believe in and that they can be reasoned with ...

What happened to the Vegan's in the past was a horrible thing that should never be forgotten, but none of it justifies the stupidity and lack of humanity that we had seen from them in their actions to the civilian population of the Federation. The people who had wronged them had been long dead, and the ones who are alive were more than willing to extend the olive branch and make amends ... hell, people like Seric and Algreus are open minded and given the chance would still attempt to make peace.

It's the Vegan's leadership and general agreement that is pushing things into this level, while the Federation trying to fight for the survival of humanity despite some levels of corruption and bureaucracy (at BEST, and even then most of it is due to Vegan influence) and are still open about peace.

You can't balance it, I'm afraid.
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Old 2012-09-11, 14:49   Link #104
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Ok I guess you got me there. I'm gonna have to retract that last bit. There are some reasonable people in some reasonable positions as far as Earth is concerned.

Also, I never looked to justify their actions. But to say they're evil and deserve to be wiped out is just going to far. Actions don't make evil, it's intent.
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Old 2012-09-11, 15:05   Link #105
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My point is that judging whole vagan military/population by the actions of Gerra Zoi's and Zeheart's cells is a mistake. Those two are Ezelcant's personal task forces and their actions, knowingly to them or not, most likely directed toward advancement of Project Eden. So far, i can't remember a single instance of regular Vagan military forces purposefully slaughtering civilians or doing other things from your list. It's just a speculation, of course, but I think it reasonable to assume that for the most of the Vagan soldiers involvement in the war is limited to fighting Federation military. Therefore claiming that majority of vagan population is formed by mass murderers and war criminals and could be judged on that basis is wrong.
Oh, of course not, Judging the entire Vagan population on what Gerra Zoi and Zehearts cell's did wouldnt be good, but thats not what i meant. what i mean is that sofar, 47 episodes in we've had no proof that the Vagan civilians don't share their opinions, you know?

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Do you even know what a war crime is or are you just fucking trolling? Why would you not count colony drops? Dropping a colony on Earth and killing billions of civilians is a goddamn war crime any way you want to slice it. You don't get to ignore that fact just because it suits your distorted argument.

The Vagans blew up two colonies, and the Feds managed to evacuate the entire population of one, so in terms of Earth sphere losses, the Vagans only killed 1 colony worth of civilians + the attacks on Flit's home colony and other random, small scale attacks here and there + Olivernotes.

Zeon on the other hand attacked Sides 1, 2, 4 and 5, which contained clusters of colonies, the numbers aren't exact but they destroyed several colonies, and murdered billions of people not counting those that died on Earth once they dropped colonies. Then there are the subsequent insurrections and colony drops in the years following the OYW carried out by Zeon loyalists.
The vagans are bad, but they don't even come close to the Zeon.

You need to get your facts straight.
both Zeon and the Vagans show a huge disregard for human life and attacked civilians without flinching. Colony drops or not. Calling me a troll or tossing out personal insults isn't going to get you anywhere.

@ Dengar, i belive Arabesque summed it up quite nicely there.
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Old 2012-09-11, 16:03   Link #106
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Also, I never looked to justify their actions. But to say they're evil and deserve to be wiped out is just going to far. Actions don't make evil, it's intent.
I understand, and I agree with you on that. I do not want an ending that have the Vegan's completely dead, even if what their military had done some very heinous and horrible things, that doesn't mean they should be all dead ... that's not the way to go at all.

Thing is, remember all the things we seen soldiers and civilians on the Federation side had done? Remember how even if they receive orders to commit mass murder they will say no? How even if their higher ups do horrible things or their ranks act out of line, they will arrest them, punish them and bring them to justice? Or how some of them will even defect or do what they need to do in order to not kill everyone on the enemy side?

Where did we see anyone on the Vegan side do that? I'm not saying that makes them evil, but the show sure didn't do anything to make them likable or even remotely less monstrous as a whole.

And this is a problem. What's worse is that we had been following what can be described as a military family in the form of the Asuno's and seen things from mostly a military perspective thus far in this show, and the Federation comes across as being a good place to be in, despite having some corruption in it's ranks but it's not like that isn't addressed when it's discovered. It's the same as the Vegan's, who we had mostly seen them from their military actions as well, but not a single noble moment with them.

At this point, I want to see the Vegan's live at the end, but have some severe restrictions placed on them and for them to be punished for the crimes their military and higher ups have committed against humanity (yes, humanity as a whole). I doubt that's the ending will be getting, but it's the one I feel that's going to be fair.
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Old 2012-09-11, 16:08   Link #107
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Oh, of course not, Judging the entire Vagan population on what Gerra Zoi and Zehearts cell's did wouldnt be good, but thats not what i meant. what i mean is that sofar, 47 episodes in we've had no proof that the Vagan civilians don't share their opinions, you know?

Well, i was referring to your original point

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Of course you cant, but you can judge an entire population by what the majority of its population has done sofar, and thats been ruthless killing of civilians and war crimes that tops Zeon outside of colony drops.
Most of the atrocities we have seen were committed by relatively small number of people, so saying that majority of vagan population directly participated in ruthless killing and war crimes is a bit farfetched.


You are right, we haven't seen civilians opposing Ezelcant's methods, and most likely won't see a lot of them anyway, so only option left is to speculate. Honestly, I think that most of the civilians are not even aware of what and how their military doing. When higher-ups deliver them news from the battlefront (assuming they do it at all), they probably don't mention slaughtered civilians and razed to the ground cities, more like something about making another step on the way to Eden etc. I'd imagine that for the most part they have attitude similar to Dean, who is bitter about Earthers living happily while he and the rest of the vagans have to suffer, but doesn't go around saying how badly he wants to see them punished and suffering, instead concentrating on his belief that someday Ezelcant will lead vagans to Eden.

Last edited by overloard; 2012-09-11 at 16:24.
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Old 2012-09-11, 16:59   Link #108
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I understand, and I agree with you on that. I do not want an ending that have the Vegan's completely dead, even if what their military had done some very heinous and horrible things, that doesn't mean they should be all dead ... that's not the way to go at all.

Thing is, remember all the things we seen soldiers and civilians on the Federation side had done? Remember how even if they receive orders to commit mass murder they will say no? How even if their higher ups do horrible things or their ranks act out of line, they will arrest them, punish them and bring them to justice? Or how some of them will even defect or do what they need to do in order to not kill everyone on the enemy side?

Where did we see anyone on the Vegan side do that? I'm not saying that makes them evil, but the show sure didn't do anything to make them likable or even remotely less monstrous as a whole.

And this is a problem. What's worse is that we had been following what can be described as a military family in the form of the Asuno's and seen things from mostly a military perspective thus far in this show, and the Federation comes across as being a good place to be in, despite having some corruption in it's ranks but it's not like that isn't addressed when it's discovered. It's the same as the Vegan's, who we had mostly seen them from their military actions as well, but not a single noble moment with them.

At this point, I want to see the Vegan's live at the end, but have some severe restrictions placed on them and for them to be punished for the crimes their military and higher ups have committed against humanity (yes, humanity as a whole). I doubt that's the ending will be getting, but it's the one I feel that's going to be fair.
Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. Punish the people for their leader's crimes. That seemed to work wonders for the Allies after WWI

You only need to punish the higher ups, which in this case means Ezelcant and Zeheart, assuming they make it to the end alive. The civilians only need to be told the truth and if necessary, be re-educated. They need to be given a real source of hope, i.e finding a cure for Mars cancer, not pushed into a corner where the only real way out they'd have is another war.
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Old 2012-09-11, 19:22   Link #109
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Originally Posted by overloard View Post
You are right, we haven't seen civilians opposing Ezelcant's methods, and most likely won't see a lot of them anyway, so only option left is to speculate. Honestly, I think that most of the civilians are not even aware of what and how their military doing. When higher-ups deliver them news from the battlefront (assuming they do it at all), they probably don't mention slaughtered civilians and razed to the ground cities, more like something about making another step on the way to Eden etc. I'd imagine that for the most part they have attitude similar to Dean, who is bitter about Earthers living happily while he and the rest of the vagans have to suffer, but doesn't go around saying how badly he wants to see them punished and suffering, instead concentrating on his belief that someday Ezelcant will lead vagans to Eden.
You are forgetting that Vegans have been brainwashed at the notion they are the superior race and Earthers are subhumans. That is from the mouths of the arrogant pricks of Vegan.

A normal Vegan would have tons of insecurity issues as shown with Deen. Deen believed the people of Earth are laughing at their poor state all this time.

WTF Earthers and colonists around them don't know you even exist much less the condition of your colonies. (Which Ezelcant admitted to be sabotaging for his Social Darwinist dream)

Breeding jealousy, envy and a sense of entitlement Vegan society produced soldiers that wont give mercy to either Earther military and civilian alike.

Killing civilians in their point of view would be evicting squatters from their property.

Plus you also got to understand the Determination factor.

As Fram pointed out a lot of them has been sacrificed to stop now. She didn't mention they've done so much atrocities to stop now because if they lose from their perspective the Earthers would do to them what they've been doing for the past 70 years. Surrender is not an option at this critical stage.
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Old 2012-09-11, 19:48   Link #110
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In terms of Vegan civilians we are talking about a people who have been dealing with propaganda for at least decades. Propaganda is plenty effective when civilians have access to little information and finding out what is really happening on Earth would be pretty impossible for the Vegan civilians. They may not care much about what their military have been doing.

The real issue going forward is clearing up the truth and changing beliefs. Considering that just about anyone alive has probably grown up with this propaganda and war that will be tough. On the positive moving Second Moon takes care of the Mars Ray issue and they are parked right beside Earth. May not immediately let those people immigrate, but at least it'd be possible to keep them supplied safely up there in the meantime.

Assuming they don't get caught up in the crossfire.
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Old 2012-09-11, 19:53   Link #111
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The FX is a separate Gundam from the AGE-3.

Though I agree with AGE-2 being the best AGE Gundam( especially Dark Hound). But, this discussion is better suited for the mecha thread.
thats news to me. i though FX was part of the 3rd gen MS. i liked the white AGE2 but age2 DH is pretty even with the normal white age2.

looks like that theres only 2 episodes left of this series. i dont know yet how they'll wrap it up but they have a large bill to fill out and any epilogue doesnt seem to be very long. i dont particularly mind how the series ends but as long as they dont leave too many things hanging unanswered.

its also a relief that the series is ending. shidoh was a strong opponent and i feared that they'd up the ante of the series by leaving the weapons database and guard MS relatively unharmed but for now they seem content to have both sides convinced its destroyed for good. i dont know if they'll have a folow up series after kio grows up but exaDB will be an interesting thing to uncover should they decide to pursue it in a series continuation.

i know certain gundam fans didnt like the characteristics of this gundam anime series but i very much like it. some series stay within a certain time period while others progress ie UC, AD and AGE. i like many manistream gundam series but the weirder ones have their merits ie Turn A, Gundam X and any atypical series. AGE is a atypical one in my book due to the story line and MS designs, mainly Vagan

i found Deen's death to be rather cheap as they finally reconciled to an extent only to have himtaken out by a fellow Vagan. Deen's death really didnt have much of a purpose though Serics had a definate meaning in the series. even the full burst effect didnt have much impression, very simiral to the add-on for the age1 ms though only more output surfaces.
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Old 2012-09-12, 03:21   Link #112
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Originally Posted by overloard View Post
You are right, we haven't seen civilians opposing Ezelcant's methods, and most likely won't see a lot of them anyway, so only option left is to speculate. Honestly, I think that most of the civilians are not even aware of what and how their military doing. When higher-ups deliver them news from the battlefront (assuming they do it at all), they probably don't mention slaughtered civilians and razed to the ground cities, more like something about making another step on the way to Eden etc. I'd imagine that for the most part they have attitude similar to Dean, who is bitter about Earthers living happily while he and the rest of the vagans have to suffer, but doesn't go around saying how badly he wants to see them punished and suffering, instead concentrating on his belief that someday Ezelcant will lead vagans to Eden.
Oh yeah, all we can do is speculate, but from what we've been shown sofar, no Vagan has been shown to doubt Ezelcant's ways, thats why i mean it's safe to assume that the Vagans (Civilians or not) support Ezelcant's cause.

We can't assume they arent told, Seeing how Ezelcant talks to them with his Giant hologram from what we've seen, hopefully the last 2 episodes will give us some insight into the civilian Vagan population instead of leaving them as blank background characters.

i find it hard to draw a conclusion when it comes to the Vagan civilians in general because we've been shown so little of them, and what we've been shown isnt pointing towards them being good, minus Deen and Lu.

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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
The real issue going forward is clearing up the truth and changing beliefs. Considering that just about anyone alive has probably grown up with this propaganda and war that will be tough. On the positive moving Second Moon takes care of the Mars Ray issue and they are parked right beside Earth. May not immediately let those people immigrate, but at least it'd be possible to keep them supplied safely up there in the meantime.

Assuming they don't get caught up in the crossfire.
See, Deen mentioned something about multiple Vagan colonies (we where shown atleast 2-3 if i recall, counting second moon) So Second moon isnt the only Vagan colony in the Mars Sphere. to be honest we don't really know how big the Vagan population really is.

Second moon will end up in the crossfire, for sure, that would be the final personal battle for Flit, to wipe out a entire colony and become as bad as the Vagan's who took his mothers, friends and Woolf's life, Will he pull the trigger or not? i really hope that Kio doesnt convince him, but:
Spoiler for game spoiler:
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Old 2012-09-12, 03:44   Link #113
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I don't even believe that there are very many Vegans who don't support Ezelcant. I mean living in their conditions doesn't really leave much option other than believe in someone who's promised them salvation.

The only way for them to NOT believe in Ezelcant is to have somebody else to believe in. Who as far as we know, doesn't exist.
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Old 2012-09-12, 09:33   Link #114
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You are forgetting that Vegans have been brainwashed at the notion they are the superior race and Earthers are subhumans. That is from the mouths of the arrogant pricks of Vegan.
Though it's true that some of the vagans do adopt such beliefs, I don't remember anything in the show suggesting that this is dominant mindset for the entirety of population. Vagans surely angry and resentful towards Earthers, but saying that they view them as inferior creatures and fully support extermination is pushing it a bit too far. My impression is that Vagan ideology mostly based on concept of reaching their paradise without specifically focusing on the hatred and exacting vengeance on Earthers, it's just something some of the most fanatical and retarded pick up independently, and such people can't be used as examples who represent whole population.

Quote:
A normal Vegan would have tons of insecurity issues as shown with Deen. Deen believed the people of Earth are laughing at their poor state all this time.

WTF Earthers and colonists around them don't know you even exist much less the condition of your colonies. (Which Ezelcant admitted to be sabotaging for his Social Darwinist dream)

Breeding jealousy, envy and a sense of entitlement Vegan society produced soldiers that wont give mercy to either Earther military and civilian alike.

Killing civilians in their point of view would be evicting squatters from their property.
While Deen's perception of the Federation and its people is twisted and nonsensical, at the end of the day he never shown any intent to punish them or make them suffer like Lu. All he ever did was talking about how he believes in Ezelcant's Eden and his promise to Lu to take her there. Since Deen seems to be absolutely generic vagan civilian, he is unlikely to hold any divergent from the rest of population beliefs, so I assume majority of them would think more or less like him. Instead of seething with hatred and malice towards damned Earthers vagans most likely passively brooding over injustice done to them, but in the end don't care much as long as they can have their Eden.

Quote:
Plus you also got to understand the Determination factor.

As Fram pointed out a lot of them has been sacrificed to stop now. She didn't mention they've done so much atrocities to stop now because if they lose from their perspective the Earthers would do to them what they've been doing for the past 70 years. Surrender is not an option at this critical stage.
Sorry, not sure I understand what are you saying here. Do you mean that Vagans can't stop fighting because of the fear of retribution from the Federation? How did you reached that conclusion from Fram's words? She is not saying that they killed so much people that federation will never forgive them, sacrifices and lost lifes she refers to are vagans. For me it looks like typical anime reasoning "We've gone too far and gave up too much to stop now, so we must see it through to the end no matter what".



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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Oh yeah, all we can do is speculate, but from what we've been shown sofar, no Vagan has been shown to doubt Ezelcant's ways, thats why i mean it's safe to assume that the Vagans (Civilians or not) support Ezelcant's cause.

We can't assume they arent told, Seeing how Ezelcant talks to them with his Giant hologram from what we've seen, hopefully the last 2 episodes will give us some insight into the civilian Vagan population instead of leaving them as blank background characters.

i find it hard to draw a conclusion when it comes to the Vagan civilians in general because we've been shown so little of them, and what we've been shown isnt pointing towards them being good, minus Deen and Lu.
Such thing as Vagan civilians opposing Ezelcant probably does not exist, but i don't think it's wise blame them for that. It's not like they bury their heads in the sand in the face of overwhelming evidences of Ezelcant's atrocities and keep following him because of the petty hatred towards Earthers and desire for revenge. There is no way for them to form objective opinion on their leaders and the war they waging, since the only source of information for them is heavily biased propaganda speeches. Don't know about you, but given the conditions vagans live in I would be willing to cut them some slack in this regard.

Last edited by overloard; 2012-09-12 at 12:34.
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Old 2012-09-12, 12:43   Link #115
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
Second moon will end up in the crossfire, for sure, that would be the final personal battle for Flit, to wipe out a entire colony and become as bad as the Vagan's who took his mothers, friends and Woolf's life, Will he pull the trigger or not? i really hope that Kio doesnt convince him, but:
Spoiler for game spoiler:
About this part, it reminds me of the in game cutscene, where
Spoiler for Game Spoiler:

Was this in the anime?
Or....
Is this something that was cut out from the anime.
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Old 2012-09-12, 14:40   Link #116
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Though it's true that some of the vagans do adopt such beliefs, I don't remember anything in the show suggesting that this is dominant mindset for the entirety of population. Vagans surely angry and resentful towards Earthers, but saying that they view them as inferior creatures and fully support extermination is pushing it a bit too far. My impression is that Vagan ideology mostly based on concept of reaching their paradise without specifically focusing on the hatred and exacting vengeance on Earthers, it's just something some of the most fanatical and retarded pick up independently, and such people can't be used as examples who represent whole population.
You have to note that Ezelcant is running is running a Social Darwinist agenda. (He's not telling the whole Plan though) He is indoctrinating the Vegan population that they are superior to the rest of humanity.

Since they are isolated who is to contradict him? Ezelcant the Vegan nation with the cult of personality is similar to North Korea.


Quote:
While Deen's perception of the Federation and its people is twisted and nonsensical, at the end of the day he never shown any intent to punish them or make them suffer like Lu. All he ever did was talking about how he believes in Ezelcant's Eden and his promise to Lu to take her there. Since Deen seems to be absolutely generic vagan civilian, he is unlikely to hold any divergent from the rest of population beliefs, so I assume majority of them would think more or less like him. Instead of seething with hatred and malice towards damned Earthers vagans most likely passively brooding over injustice done to them, but in the end don't care much as long as they can have their Eden.
Poor conditions, jealously and perceived slight can lead a people to be fooled by a demagogue into thinking they can take the entire world.

Case in point Germany. It's people believed they should've won the war, the Treaty of Versailles was unfair to them, and the economy went to the crapper due to the Depression on top of reparations.

Hitler made promises to the masses that these injustices (to them) would be overturned and he would make their lives better.

That is what Ezelcant pretty much did. He inflamed "negative" nationalism among the Vegans through propaganda and promise of spoils of war.

In order to do that he had to depicted Earthers are evil beings that denied them their rights.

Eathers not the Federation officials that abandoned their ancestors more than a century ago.



Quote:
Sorry, not sure I understand what are you saying here. Do you mean that Vagans can't stop fighting because of the fear of retribution from the Federation? How did you reached that conclusion from Fram's words? She is not saying that they killed so much people that federation will never forgive them, sacrifices and lost lifes she refers to are vagans. For me it looks like typical anime reasoning "We've gone too far and gave up too much to stop now, so we must see it through to the end no matter what".
From Fram's perspective so much blood has been spilled for there to be a reconcillation.

Not only have they lost so much soldiers in their cause but to lose or surrender would make their actions moot.

They are also aware if they lose their soldiers would be treated as war criminals.

The Federation still has a death penalty.

The Vegan nation would be humiliated again and worse under the heel of the damn Earthers.

Quote:
Such thing as Vagan civilians opposing Ezelcant probably does not exist, but i don't think it's wise blame them for that. It's not like they bury their heads in the sand in the face of overwhelming evidences of Ezelcant's atrocities and keep following him because of the petty hatred towards Earthers and desire for revenge. There is no way for them to form objective opinion on their leaders and the war they waging, since the only source of information for them is heavily biased propaganda speeches. Don't know about you, but given the conditions vagans live in I would be willing to cut them some slack in this regard.
Slack hell no force them cultural reforms after the war.

Guilt trip them so future generations wont do what they did ever again.

Because power ultimately comes from the people. They gave Ezelcant that power.
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Old 2012-09-12, 16:50   Link #117
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
You have to note that Ezelcant is running is running a Social Darwinist agenda. (He's not telling the whole Plan though) He is indoctrinating the Vegan population that they are superior to the rest of humanity.
Uhhhh, I have never heard Ezelcant spout any of that 'superior race' bullcrap. I've heard him say a lot of other bull, but nothing about being a superior race.
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Old 2012-09-13, 04:46   Link #118
overloard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
You have to note that Ezelcant is running is running a Social Darwinist agenda. (He's not telling the whole Plan though) He is indoctrinating the Vegan population that they are superior to the rest of humanity.

Since they are isolated who is to contradict him? Ezelcant the Vegan nation with the cult of personality is similar to North Korea.

Quote:
Poor conditions, jealously and perceived slight can lead a people to be fooled by a demagogue into thinking they can take the entire world.

Case in point Germany. It's people believed they should've won the war, the Treaty of Versailles was unfair to them, and the economy went to the crapper due to the Depression on top of reparations.

Hitler made promises to the masses that these injustices (to them) would be overturned and he would make their lives better.

That is what Ezelcant pretty much did. He inflamed "negative" nationalism among the Vegans through propaganda and promise of spoils of war.

In order to do that he had to depicted Earthers are evil beings that denied them their rights.

Eathers not the Federation officials that abandoned their ancestors more than a century ago.
Nope, i have to disagree here. Ezelcant's public ideas which he feeding his people has little to do with Social Darwinism. May be missing I something, but I can't remember anything about Ezelcant calling Vagans superior race or inciting hatred towards Federation. Whenever Ezelcant or Zeheart give their rallying speeches, it always goes like "Eden, Eden again, blah-blah, Eden", not a word about detestable Earthers or Vagan superiority. As i said before, Vagans seem to be more focused on reaching their paradise and stuff than taking revenge on Earthers, I'd think when they learn the truth behind Ezelcant's plan they will let go of their grudges rather easily.


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From Fram's perspective so much blood has been spilled for there to be a reconcillation.

Not only have they lost so much soldiers in their cause but to lose or surrender would make their actions moot.

They are also aware if they lose their soldiers would be treated as war criminals.

The Federation still has a death penalty.

The Vegan nation would be humiliated again and worse under the heel of the damn Earthers.
Well, yeah, that's serious problem. At this point Vagans can't just nicely apologize to Federation and became friends with them. We'll have to wait till the of the series to see how it works out. But since AGE is obviously in for understanding ending there likely won't be total annihilation of Vagan military and subjugating of remaining population involved.
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Old 2012-09-13, 07:32   Link #119
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Ezelcant doesn't actually say it out right but he does imply that the Vagans are the superior race compared to the Earthnoids when he says that the Earthnoids don't deserve to live on Earth whereas the Vagans do, especially considering that they started to name themselves "Vagan" as an attempt to differentiate themselves from people born and lives on Earth. Also the fact that the Vagans call people living on Earth "Earthnoids" is another hint which they consider themselves to be a different race altogether because the term is clearly projecting a vibe of alien-ness in it.

Put the two together the implication is pretty clear - the propaganda is clearly that Vagans are superior to the Earthnoids and thus have the right to kill and take over their land to claim it as their own and shape it in a way that is superior that how the Earthnoids are currently treating it, there's just loads and loads of self-arrogance there. And when arrogance is involved then clearly a thinking of superiority is there too.
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Old 2012-09-13, 11:29   Link #120
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The problem is that Vagan goals and intentions outside their desire to go back to Earth is rather vague. I believe AGE never stated what exactly they are going to do about the Earth population, and without that it's impossible to adequately evaluate their attitude towards Earthenoids. Some of their actions might suggest that Vagans aim for the full extermination, but than you have Zeheart in the gen 2 repeatedly telling Asemu to quit military and go live normal life, which implies that at least in his opinion there is a possibility of normal life for Earthers after vagan's victory.

And the whole "kill them all" thing doesn't quite match with generally positive portrayal of the Eden concept. Whenever Zeheart tells someone (Dole, Asemu, Fram) about it they start melting, admiring or swearing loyalty to him, so apparently it really supposed to evoke sympathy towards Vagans and their reasons from viewer.
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