AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Fate/ Series

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-09-11, 01:37   Link #3981
Flinch
Onii-chan~
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Einzbern Castle
Age: 22
Send a message via AIM to Flinch Send a message via MSN to Flinch Send a message via Skype™ to Flinch
Eh, I'll state this now; 3/4 had roles in 2 routes, and 1/4 was utterly useless outside of her own. To me, that's an unneeded character. She also comes off poorly as a DID (Damsel In Distress) as most are at least trying to change their situation, while she literally does nothing.
__________________
Flinch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-11, 01:45   Link #3982
Thess
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flinch View Post
Eh, I'll state this now; 3/4 had roles in 2 routes, and 1/4 was utterly useless outside of her own. To me, that's an unneeded character. She also comes off poorly as a DID (Damsel In Distress) as most are at least trying to change their situation, while she literally does nothing.
Ilya had a role in UBW beyond being a fail mini boss in the beginning, disappearing and getting killed when she reappears? That's called fodder (and this I admit even if Winter Forest is my favorite sequence of UBW). While in Fate? Her role was to be a successful mini boss then be a damsel in distress?

Also, Ilya is trying to change her situation? How exactly? She's only following orders from her grandfather and performing her role, then she's saved or not by Shirou (she really needed her own route). Rin is also following the wishes of her dead father. The times the most subvert this is... in HF, where all their family issues come afloat sincerely because one of the focus of the route is on their family mess too.

Let's not even bring up, that without Sakura having a role, the Greater Grail never comes to play, thus failing to give a proper conclusion where Shirou and Ilya are involved (Rin would always be involved).

Sakura wounded Kotomine and left him into an agonizing state (otherwise Shirou would have died in their last battle. Kirei died because he ran out time by the injures Sakura gave him), she also killed True Assassin (the Dragon to Zouken) and destroyed Zouken's crest of worms (which no one could do successfully) which removed his danger and stopped him from getting the control of Angra Mainyu (what the good guys were also trying to stop). Yeah, she sure is a damsel in distress (and it's funny because Rin and Shirou after they became aware of her state, were unable to do anything to help her against Zouken either)! Now tell me what feats Rin do in UBW, aside of having sex to power up Shirou and getting kidnapped? She nearly defeats Caster but that... eventually doesn't work out (and it made me mad that Archer had to arrive and save the day). It wasn't her finest moment, even the Tiger Dojo ridicules her calling it Archer route ugh. Her finest was in HF where she accessed to near Second Magic and became Zelretch's apprentice. She got real character development and became a successful magus. She was amazing in Fate too, although not as much.

HF is good because it bothers to develop the four of them. Ilya is two dimensional outside of it (IMO. HF made me love her so much and I couldn't stand her face in Fate), so are Rin and Sakura, no matter what role they had in action or not (well Rin had the Prologue to avert this but that wasn't part of any route). The drawback is that the Servants get less focus, but those four certainly do and so does Kotomine, whose character journey was very important in Fate/Zero.
__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"

Last edited by Thess; 2012-09-11 at 15:45. Reason: typos
Thess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-11, 16:04   Link #3983
Ragna92
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Ilya had a role in UBW beyond being a fail mini boss in the beginning, disappearing and getting killed when she reappears? That's called fodder (and this I admit even if Winter Forest is my favorite sequence of UBW). While in Fate? Her role was to be a successful mini boss then be a damsel in distress?

Also, Ilya is trying to change her situation? How exactly? She's only following orders from her grandfather and performing her role, then she's saved or not by Shirou (she really needed her own route). Rin is also following the wishes of her dead father. The times the most subvert this is... in HF, where all their family issues come afloat sincerely because one of the focus of the route is on their family mess too.

Let's not even bring up, that without Sakura having a role, the Greater Grail never comes to play, thus failing to give a proper conclusion where Shirou and Ilya are involved (Rin would always be involved).

Sakura wounded Kotomine and left him into an agonizing state (otherwise Shirou would have died in their last battle. Kirei died because he ran out time by the injures Sakura gave him), she also killed True Assassin (the Dragon to Zouken) and destroyed Zouken's crest of worms (which no one could do successfully) which removed his danger and stopped him from getting the control of Angra Mainyu (what the good guys were also trying to stop). Yeah, she sure is a damsel in distress (and it's funny because Rin and Shirou after they became aware of her state, were unable to do anything to help her against Zouken either)! Now tell me what feats Rin do in UBW, aside of having sex to power up Shirou and getting kidnapped? She nearly defeats Caster but that... eventually doesn't work out (and it made me mad that Archer had to arrive and save the day). It wasn't her finest moment, even the Tiger Dojo ridicules her calling it Archer route ugh. Her finest was in HF where she accessed to near Second Magic and became Zelretch's apprentice. She got real character development and became a successful magus. She was amazing in Fate too, although not as much.

HF is good because it bothers to develop the four of them. Ilya is two dimensional outside of it (IMO. HF made me love her so much and I couldn't stand her face in Fate), so are Rin and Sakura, no matter what role they had in action or not (well Rin had the Prologue to avert this but that wasn't part of any route). The drawback is that the Servants get less focus, but those four certainly do and so does Kotomine, whose character journey was very important in Fate/Zero.
I think this is why I believe HF to be the best route, even though my favorite character by far, Gilgamesh had no importance.

I liked the fact that so many characters got developed. Shirou, Sakura, Kotomine, Rin and Ilya.
Spoiler for Ilya HF:
And damn was I shocked by Kotomine in HF, it made me think that the Kotomine in the first two routes was an imposter.
Ragna92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-11, 16:33   Link #3984
Vladrave
The Dark Slayer
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Yeah, i like kotomine the most in Heaven's feel.
Made me to say WTF.
But it seems there is another reason why heaven's feel is not my favorite. Probably because of saber never got to much develop during the route, She became evil and was killed by shirou.
Vladrave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-11, 16:41   Link #3985
Ragna92
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladrave View Post
Yeah, i like kotomine the most in Heaven's feel.
Made me to say WTF.
But it seems there is another reason why heaven's feel is not my favorite. Probably because of saber never got to much develop during the route, She became evil and was killed by shirou.
Well at least you don't dislike it for that reason. I've seen guys bashing and hating on HF just because of Saber's role in it.
Ragna92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-11, 16:45   Link #3986
Vladrave
The Dark Slayer
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Well honestly i like HF more than UBW.
I finally got the time to finish the route last day.
Vladrave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-11, 17:21   Link #3987
Thess
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragna92 View Post
I think this is why I believe HF to be the best route, even though my favorite character by far, Gilgamesh had no importance.

I liked the fact that so many characters got developed. Shirou, Sakura, Kotomine, Rin and Ilya.
Spoiler for Ilya HF:
And damn was I shocked by Kotomine in HF, it made me think that the Kotomine in the first two routes was an imposter.
Yes, for the 'next generation' (as ufotable calls them) it's objectively the best route because they fix their family mess and go through intense character development. Of course, the Servants in general (except for Hassan, Saber, Berserker and Rider get the shaft).

Spoiler for ILYA ILYA ILYAAAAA:


While Gilgamesh doesn't really have a lot of scenes, the few he has are overall better written than in the other routes where he was just the Boss. He's a bit more dignified in attitude overall than showing him as a potential rapist, orphan snacking or loli-killing guy (compared to his Zero role). In the fantasy wishful thinking of ufotable adapting this route, they'll probably throw more for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladrave View Post
But it seems there is another reason why heaven's feel is not my favorite. Probably because of saber never got to much develop during the route, She became evil and was killed by shirou.
I love Alter Saber. She's got the best fight of the series (in Sparks Liner High). I think they could do so much more with her (show her moment of taint, like in Fate/UC, if they include the fail taint scene with Gilgamesh in Zero, it could be great as contrast. In UC, Saber embraced and accepted Angra Mainyu, promising to serve him. As opposed to Gilgamesh who dominated him).
__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Thess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-11, 17:25   Link #3988
mAc Chaos
King of Heroes
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 28
I always thought the thing Shirou got put into was Rin's gem until he was found. He definitely reaches out for it and it contains a little magical energy. Either that or it kept him from dying long enough to be saved.

As for Kotomine cursing Kiritsugu, I think as far as FSN goes it never contradicted that. It was only contradicted in Fate/Zero...
mAc Chaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-11, 17:34   Link #3989
Thess
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
As for Kotomine cursing Kiritsugu, I think as far as FSN goes it never contradicted that. It was only contradicted in Fate/Zero...
Which isn't quite contradicted at all since Fate route Kotomine went all Avenger on Shirou, manipulating the mud tentacles. Who knows who was speaking then (Remember Ilya said Kirei and Sakura had pieces of Angra inside). But this is my personal pet theory.

You can chalk up the inconsistency of the Kayneth Team deaths to Kotomine not knowing what happened there, only getting the report (so this is fine).
__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Thess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-11, 17:38   Link #3990
chaos_alfa
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Spoiler for ILYA ILYA ILYAAAAA:
Spoiler for Shirou Heaven's Feel ending question:
chaos_alfa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-11, 17:47   Link #3991
Thess
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
Spoiler for Shirou Heaven's Feel ending question:
Spoiler for that ending:
__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Thess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-11, 19:21   Link #3992
Archer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Did they? I haven't gotten my copy of that book yet. That's interesting.
I think you're thinking of the Fate/Zero Animation Visual Guide (the standalone book) rather than the Fate/Zero Animation Material (the companion booklet with the Blu-ray set).
Archer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-11, 20:08   Link #3993
Thess
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archer View Post
I think you're thinking of the Fate/Zero Animation Visual Guide (the standalone book) rather than the Fate/Zero Animation Material (the companion booklet with the Blu-ray set).
Oh yeah, I did. I have that one. I do remember reading that Gen and the others explained why the changes for the visual medium had to happen, when they were talking about the "comfort to the original" topic (right? It's been a while since I read it). I was hoping we'll have more details in the Visual Guide about the selection process. Thanks for correcting me.
__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Thess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-13, 18:55   Link #3994
Arabesque
Licensed Hunter-a-holic
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Where did you get this information? The interview that comes with the Fate/Zero first volume is completely different. They even asked him to rework lines in a "cool, Urobuchi way." He was completely involved with the scenario writing and supervision.
ANN, but after reading what Archer had posted, it seems that they were mistaken somewhat. In any case, while he had a voice in suggesting and supervising (which I did note at least :P) he still wasn't the chief writer for the anime.

In any case, I've just finished reading through HF again, and I have some more questions about it, in addition to the older ones:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
Spoiler for Q!:
Spoiler for More Q!:
__________________
Arabesque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-13, 19:09   Link #3995
mAc Chaos
King of Heroes
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 28
For Sakura it's a little more complicated in that. In both versions she turns on Shinji because she knows when Shirou finds out what Shinji's done he would snap and beat the hell out of him or worse. So to protect Shirou from himself and from learning about what was happening to her she had to act.
mAc Chaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-13, 19:24   Link #3996
Arabesque
Licensed Hunter-a-holic
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 25
I see. yeah that makes sense, I do remember a scene where Shirou does think (say?) that he wants to kill Shinji after he sees him beat Sakura in HF, so if Shinji was stupid enough to actually go on and brag about it in front of Shirou's face, I could see why Sakura would want to kill him to keep him quiet so Shirou wouldn't end up becoming a murderer. Cause even without the rape bit, I would still imagine Shirou being pissed off enough that he'd want to end Shinji right then and there (I would be ...)

Cookies for you.
__________________
Arabesque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-13, 20:28   Link #3997
DragoZERO
Spoilaphobic
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Oh yeah, I did. I have that one. I do remember reading that Gen and the others explained why the changes for the visual medium had to happen, when they were talking about the "comfort to the original" topic (right? It's been a while since I read it). I was hoping we'll have more details in the Visual Guide about the selection process. Thanks for correcting me.
Indeed, it is in the interviews included with the first box set. I think they did a superb job and even though stuff was changed, it was fluid and not choppy. I also don't mind the changes, like episode ten was original to allow those who did not know of F/SN to see how much Rin changed in the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
I see. yeah that makes sense, I do remember a scene where Shirou does think (say?) that he wants to kill Shinji after he sees him beat Sakura in HF, so if Shinji was stupid enough to actually go on and brag about it in front of Shirou's face, I could see why Sakura would want to kill him to keep him quiet so Shirou wouldn't end up becoming a murderer. Cause even without the rape bit, I would still imagine Shirou being pissed off enough that he'd want to end Shinji right then and there (I would be ...)

Cookies for you.
I wanted to kill Shinji the moment he was introduced...
DragoZERO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-14, 14:07   Link #3998
Guernsey
The GAP Man
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 26
Send a message via AIM to Guernsey Send a message via MSN to Guernsey Send a message via Yahoo to Guernsey
Spoiler for Sakura Question:
__________________
Guernsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-14, 14:35   Link #3999
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
Spoiler for Sakura Question:
Childhood friends.

which is funny when you consider what kiri did to Shinji's dad
__________________
Xellos-_^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-14, 15:33   Link #4000
Usami_Haru
Actually an Alligator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Running through Sharnoth
Age: 18
Well they're not exactly childhood friends. While he knew who Sakura was he never really talked to her until he hurt his arm. And that was just like one year before F/SN begins.
__________________
Usami_Haru is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.