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Old 2012-09-11, 02:41   Link #30501
GoldenLand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
7) Battler, evidence in EP4 I think (whenever they had the picnic) and EP7 shows that Battler had promised Shannon who obviously was a girl (as Battler has shown no inkling of liking the same sex) that he would ride a white horse and take her away from the island, Battler clearly had romantic feelings for her thus suggesting that Shannon is distinctively a girl.
4) Jessica & George, people keep calling Yasu gender confused but what about Jessica and George? They are certainly not gender-confused...and no clues have been presented which suggests that they are attracted to the same sex, so surely Jessica would have noticed Kanon is actually a girl or Shannon is actually a boy and either said something or stopped loving them...
5) Evidence has been given from what Battler has seen that Jessica does indeed love Kanon and George does indeed love Shannon (so it's not as if these pairings are actually fiction themselves either), so it is clear that J&G believe that Shannon and Kanon are 2 different people.
Battler thought that Shannon was a girl.

As for Jessica and George, they think that Kanon and Shannon are different people, of course. Jessica thinks that Kanon's a guy, and George thinks that Shannon's a girl. It's a mystery how nobody realised that the two people are one and the same in body, but that's the way it is.

You may as well be saying "why didn't George or Jessica [or Natsuhi, etc] realise that Shannon's boobs are fake?" But fact is that Ryukishi has confirmed that Shannon's boobs are fake.

Have you seen Ryukishi's interview with Keiya? This is the bit after where he talks about Shannon and her body problems and how she has a body that "cannot make love" and also has fake boobs.

Spoiler for quote from interview with Ryukishi:


But, you know, I think you're being unfair to Jessica and George by assuming that they would definitely stop loving Kanon and Shannon if they found out about gender issues. Ryukishi has also said that if Shannon had come out with the truth to George, she might have received an answer that would surprise her.

Your argument seems to boil down to

(a) that the games present Kanon and Shannon as two different people and that that means they have separate bodies.

I'd say: But those two characters are Yasu's creations, whom she wanted to write as individuals. They are precious, important "people" to her, whom she is very invested in. It doesn't mean that they don't both have the same body in the stories Yasu wrote. Of course she is writing them as separate people as much as she can.

(b) that Jessica, and George (and Battler) would not love someone who wasn't the opposite gender physically. They would be able to tell the difference. Therefore, because of these feelings those three have for Shannon and Kanon, those two must have separate bodies.

I'd say: nope, that doesn't follow. Also, remember, nobody has even realised that Shannon has fake boobs, let alone any other possible issues. If they were going to notice something, they would have noticed that! And for George, Ryukishi has strongly implied that if he'd found out about Shannon's body problems, he wouldn't have stopped loving her.

Umineko relies on coincidences. Ryukishi has made one of those be that the Shannon/Kanon body issue was not discovered in the gameboards.

(c)...that Episode 7 is all lies

I'd say: What? Proof is needed if you want to assert that. You should include reasons for why Ryukishi would write that whole episode as a big troll.

(d) that Shannon and Kanon not being the same person means that Rosa is the culprit? That you "know" she's the culprit but find it difficult to prove.

I'd say: No, that doesn't follow. Anyway, if you have come up with a theory for Rosa being the culprit, you should be willing to back it up with reasons. Will and Dlanor would be disappointed to hear you give up like this.
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Old 2012-09-11, 02:41   Link #30502
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Well, there just didn't seem to be any indication that she WAS in on it, outside of the line you posted (as far as I remember, anyway), which as you said could just as easily be taken as literally everybody on the island save Ghoda just lying to her about it, and we DO know they were lying about it.

Also, why expose their daughter to the potential legal consequences, or take on the risk of telling people unnecessarily? They didn't tell Ghoda (who's never met Kinzo at all, I think), and ... well, this is flimsy, but it just seems contrary to her characterization, as well. Jessica apparently didn't like being on the island at all, or being the heir to the family, so if she wouldn't really be concerned, why bother telling her?
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Old 2012-09-11, 03:56   Link #30503
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If Jessica actually noticed "Hey holy crap I haven't actually seen my Grandpa who's been living in the same house as me for the past two years, what the fuck is up with that?," she might eventually put two and two together and begin to distrust her parents. Or at least if I were Krauss or Natushi, that's why I'd consider telling her.

On a related note (And I can't really think of any evidence directly supporting this but I'll throw the idea out there anyways), is it possible Jessica DID figure this shit out on her own, and is blackmailing her parents in any of the Episodes?
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Old 2012-09-11, 05:42   Link #30504
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Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
It was all Rosa - I know it there is no other way...but it is hard to pin her down as the culprit.
Wow there, slow down. You sound very confident in that, but no, there are plenty of other ways. Do you have anything to support it?

(This had better not be KnownNoMore's theory, just warning)


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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
If Jessica actually noticed "Hey holy crap I haven't actually seen my Grandpa who's been living in the same house as me for the past two years, what the fuck is up with that?," she might eventually put two and two together and begin to distrust her parents. Or at least if I were Krauss or Natushi, that's why I'd consider telling her.
Well we aren't told that Jessica expected meeting with Kinzo regularly, and if she heard her parents say the same lame excuse that he's 'immersed in his research', she wouldn't doubt it unless there was some strong idication to make her think otherwise. Plus, I think she didn't really bother.

Quote:
On a related note (And I can't really think of any evidence directly supporting this but I'll throw the idea out there anyways), is it possible Jessica DID figure this shit out on her own, and is blackmailing her parents in any of the Episodes?
Boy, imagine what that would look like. "Mom, I wanna get a tattoo." "I foribd it!" "Then I tell aunt Eva gramps is already dead."
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Old 2012-09-11, 07:33   Link #30505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post

*snip*
Look I think we more or less clarified our positions, even if we still don't agree on some points, what matters is that at least there shouldn't be anymore misunderstanding. In the end the problem can be reduced mostly on semantic and technicisms.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Theme of miracles. Don't equivocate. We totally can argue probabilities of Ryukishi's intent in his writing and even produce evidence for or against it.
I was under the impression that we were making a discussion on realistic probabilities. If we include the narrative factor then certain arguments do not work against me either, like the unlikeliness of a stranger adopting Battler.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Sayo didn't have a bird-watching friend she named a as number-punned reference to Tomitake... who turned out to actually be Tomitake.
I'm not sure I understood it right, are you talking about Battler? This argument would only make sense for those who actually believe he is Battler.
But I don't really see the relevance. Ryuukishi decided to call her Ikuko precisely because she is both Battler's new companion, and the author of the new forgeries in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
But does this mean you take the position that Yasu, just based on what we know of her, is not more likely to adopt and hide a random amnesiac than the average person? Becaaaaaause... I find that idea preposterous.
I have explained it before. It doesn't matter how unlikely it is for such a person to exist, as long as the probability for that person to exist isn't zero, that specific person will have a 100% probability of adopting Battler.

Refer to the example of the 10000 stranger cards I've explained before.


In addition, there's the "supposed to be dead" thing to take in account.
Example: Imagine that a specific crime is reported, the investigator analyzing the modus operandi concludes that there are only two criminals who are likely enough to have committed that specific crime in that specific way. Now let's say that the investigator deduces that this is more like "Criminal A" and only relevatively compatible with "Criminal B". However Criminal A has been reported to be dead. What's more probable? That Criminal A isn't actually dead, or that the less compatible (but not entirely incompatible) Criminal B is the culprit?
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Old 2012-09-11, 08:19   Link #30506
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
On a related note (And I can't really think of any evidence directly supporting this but I'll throw the idea out there anyways), is it possible Jessica DID figure this shit out on her own, and is blackmailing her parents in any of the Episodes?
It's funny, because this would be a perfect motive for Jessica as a culprit if the story gave us any reason whatsoever to think she was even remotely involved in anything. It basically doesn't, of course, but it's interesting.
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Old 2012-09-11, 08:31   Link #30507
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It's funny, because this would be a perfect motive for Jessica as a culprit if the story gave us any reason whatsoever to think she was even remotely involved in anything. It basically doesn't, of course, but it's interesting.
But why would she involve everyone else, when they're clearly the intended victims of Krauss' and Natsuhi's scam?
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Old 2012-09-11, 09:30   Link #30508
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Well, I understand that what Thunder Book probably meant wasn't a Jessica Culprit Theory but a way to get Jessica involved in the events that happen on the island, but just for teh heck of it...

What if Jessica's tongue slips in front of the relatives (we know she's not that cunning, so she might screw up without even noticing, provided she knew such a secret.. One of them (let's say Eva because she's the most fitting for the part) pressures her a LOT, almost tortures her until she confesses. Also, we know that Jessica talks trash about her parents but loves them and always defends them. We've also got the whole 'next head' thing pressuring her. So, all those things considered, Jessica attacks and kills Eva.

But as for why she would kill the rest of them... yeah, never mind.
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Old 2012-09-11, 10:23   Link #30509
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I rather like it.
Jessica has shown twice that she's prepared to stand toe to toe with Eva in an argument, and though they're usually pretty innocent of anything, I wouldn't have minded if the kids were a little more involved with family affairs than they are.

honestly, though, if Jessica figured it out (and that's a pretty fair possibility), I mostly imagine her ... weakly asking her parents about it in a roundabout way (Is... is Grandfather really alright, shut up in there all the time..?), and more or less convincing herself to believe the lie they'd almost certainly tell.
But no yeah, somebody go write this blackmailer-Jessica forgery, right away please.
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Old 2012-09-11, 11:52   Link #30510
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The whole fake breast thing is either trolling on author's part or Ryukishi genuinely believes his readers to be retarded. I just can't take Shkanontrice theory seriously after that remark anymore.
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Old 2012-09-11, 12:14   Link #30511
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Jesica was involved in the Kinzo cover up. She even says in EP1 that "Oh yeah, I can hardly believe he only has three months left." Or something to that affect.

And for someone with the kinds of issues and problems as Yasu has, why is it far-fetch'd to believe that her bras were stuffed?
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Old 2012-09-11, 13:10   Link #30512
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Quote:
Jesica was involved in the Kinzo cover up. She even says in EP1 that "Oh yeah, I can hardly believe he only has three months left." Or something to that affect.
Or it's a plot hole caused by Ryukishi's rewrite.
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Old 2012-09-11, 13:16   Link #30513
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Originally Posted by kefir645 View Post
The whole fake breast thing is either trolling on author's part or Ryukishi genuinely believes his readers to be retarded. I just can't take Shkanontrice theory seriously after that remark anymore.
Okay, why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Or it's a plot hole caused by Ryukishi's rewrite.
Based on the information suggesting Jessica was involved in the Kinzo scham (meaning absolute zero), I'd say it's the latter.
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Old 2012-09-11, 13:20   Link #30514
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Quote:
The whole fake breast thing is either trolling on author's part or Ryukishi genuinely believes his readers to be retarded. I just can't take Shkanontrice theory seriously after that remark anymore.
Shannon devoloped a complex Because of her flat chest, What's wrong with that? And we know how Yasu thought she was a failiure and could not love, Because of the body damage,.Atleast she didn't want others to view herself like that ,She wanted to be a 'human' with her own interpretaion of things
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Old 2012-09-11, 14:09   Link #30515
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I just want to point out that it's kind of hilarious how Shannon's jiggle physics in the anime is a legitimate, narrative-wrecking plot hole.
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Old 2012-09-11, 14:33   Link #30516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
2) It's highly implied in each episode that the First Twilight is faked. It's entirely possible, nay, likely, that Yasu is buying off all the adults for a Murder Mystery Game for the kids.
"The beggining and the end overlap!"

I think in this case, "sneaked out after everyone went out and hid in the chapel" fits better.
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Old 2012-09-11, 15:43   Link #30517
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I now want to see a forgery where Erika discovers a loose pad and determines that the culprit can be identified by finding the woman to whom this bra stuffing applies, demanding the use of Detective Authority to grope every female in the cast. Battler of course is a willing assistant in this matter:

"It's settled. We shall inspect every female present on this island. Naturally, I shall be excluded from this rule," Erika proclaimed with a brisk, businesslike tone.

Battler grinned. "Wait, wait, who says you should be excluded from consideration? Aren't you one of the females present on this island?" With a flourish, he added: "Isn't it possible that you could be the owner of the evidentiary pad?"

"What? That... um... th-that's clearly not possible!" Erika stammered, glaring at Battler. His gaze seemed all the more lecherous with each passing moment.

"Can you prove that, though? If we test every individual but you, isn't it possible there could be no match, or a false positive? If you're excluded, it throws the entire investigation into question!"

Erika grimaced. "I have no idea what you are rambling about, Ushiromiya Battler, but I insist-"

"State it in red! 'I am to be excluded from consideration as the owner of this pad because everyone knows that I'm flat as a board!'"

"..."

Battler tapped his foot. "Well?"

"...I am to be excluded from consideration as the owner of this pad because everyone knows that I am flat as a board. Satisfied?" Erika's face was flush with humiliation.

"How could I be?" Battler bemoaned with feigned disappointment.
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Old 2012-09-11, 19:58   Link #30518
GoldenLand
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^ Such a scene would represent real detective skills being used! That really ought to go into a forgery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kefir645 View Post
The whole fake breast thing is either trolling on author's part or Ryukishi genuinely believes his readers to be retarded. I just can't take Shkanontrice theory seriously after that remark anymore.
Personally, I find the thing he said about rain and the culprit not getting wet in it to be much more absurd than the boob thing. It's reasonable that somebody who doesn't have boobs and wants them would go in for stuffing, it's just odd that nobody noticed it. Like Shannon's schoolmates, if they ever had to change clothes in the same room. Or Jessica, who can't have ever gone swimming with Shannon, or tickled her, etc. And the stuffing can't ever fall out. ("Sh, Shannon! You really need a new bra! Things are starting to go south!...Uh, wait, it's not possible for that to happen so fast, right?")

Quote:
Keiya: Because carrying those corpses is a painfully heavy task, I quickly dropped it. Carrying 6 corpses through a storm is impossible, right?!

Ryukishi: It’s difficult, yes. If we are talking about the storm, if there is one thing that does not fit into a mystery in Umineko and can clearly be identified as fantasy, there is one kernel part, there is not even a thought spent on getting wet in the rain. It is one part that I cut right out of that world.

...

If you do something in the storm and return afterwards, you will be pretty much drenched, in case of a woman your makeup might be smeared, or there might be wet spots left in the room, there should be plenty of things. But throughout all the story there is never an explicit mention of something being "wet", which is slightly fantastic isn’t it?!

...

Because Umineko adopts the world view of a logic puzzle more than that of a orthodox mystery puzzle, rain only becomes a topic once it is important, so it’s safe as long as it doesn’t come up. That’s because in the world of logic puzzles it’s okay to omit those parts that you don’t need as a hint.
But, that's just the world that Ryukishi is playing in... He hasn't been playing fair right from the start. He's a dirty cheat. But he does get to make the rules, and he did say the game wasn't fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I just want to point out that it's kind of hilarious how Shannon's jiggle physics in the anime is a legitimate, narrative-wrecking plot hole.
I think she has jiggling problems in the Ougon games, too...
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Old 2012-09-11, 21:17   Link #30519
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I think she has jiggling problems in the Ougon games, too...
That was even more ridiculous as every character uses fixed images for their special declarations, and she's the only one with an animation. Guess where does she gets animated.

Actually, what if she didn't do it on Prime? Or what if she told Jessica she stuffs her bra? I don't think someone (much less Jessica) can figure she's (possibly) a boy just by knowing that, after all stuffing a bra is somewhat common, and won't spoil her little secret, if she has one
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Old 2012-09-11, 22:13   Link #30520
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After reading al this I knew it: so that's why Battler has that gropping move! It really is a killer weapon in Umineko o.o!
Maybe that molestation move was put in there for that reason XD
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