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Old 2012-09-12, 17:16   Link #23401
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
About that movie trailer... that was utter ridiculous. *facepalms* However, I don't think it is something to take it literally other than saying that the people behind the movie are sheer idiots. Again, that's not something worthy ot taking it literally unless you want to add fuel on fire.
The thing is, many Muslims extremists do want to add fuel to the fire. They want more violence and fighting. They think humans are disposable when it comes to aligning with "the will of Allah". Relating to the first part of your post, a lot of Muslim extremists would be happy about Muslim Arabs dieing from an embassy attack in Europe or NA because it'd add more fuel to the jihad fire. I heard somewhere that Muslim extremists believe that in the final days before Judgement Day (which they think will occur sooner than later), it is the duty of Muslims to spread their religion by force and violence before Judgement Day occurs. If that is true, that would be a big reason for the Muslim extremists being diehard committed to their extremism: they think their fighting is the will of Allah that must be carried out. Like Vexx says, dangerous idiots.
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Old 2012-09-12, 17:17   Link #23402
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
The problem isn't with religions, religions have always been a necessity for human kind, and it's thanks the the Arabic world and Islam that Europe entered Renaissance. We were the same idiotic christianism zealot, burning women and doing many others nasty things before.

Nop, the problem isn't the invisible pink unicorn, or tentaculous monsters, it's simply the lack of education in this part of the world, or should I say, the fact the education is heavely influenced by Islam.
Education is forcibly influenced by religion, but some countries -even western side heh - got their system really messed up, twited, to the point it became propaganda.

I don't think the world would be better without religion, I have no basement to asset such a fact, but I know, for sure that if you give people a proper education, religion only becomes a "way of living" or a "path to rightfulness" and not what is it for some extremists people who the moment they were born, sat and had to listen to some lies, continously, and continously until it entered to the deepest part of their brain.
I don't think that's a problem at all. What is the problem is the history of systematic oppression of one religious region by another religious region, which even when it no longer exists is still a major part to international relations. Education influenced by religion is not the problem: It's the mutation of religion based on external factors, which seeps into education.

In fact, I fear the problem of the opposite: Any education without a religious or ethical basis is bound to be a problem, where it is a breeding ground for intolerant anti-religious sentiments which in itself is basically the most dangerous of them all.
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Old 2012-09-12, 17:26   Link #23403
Zakoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post

In fact, I fear the problem of the opposite: Any education without a religious or ethical basis is bound to be a problem, where it is a breeding ground for intolerant anti-religious sentiments which in itself is basically the most dangerous of them all.
I won't answer to the first part, what you are saying holds on pretty well and is even right, though I believe the issue lies somewhere else.

As for the second, many countries has an educational system not influenced by religions and so far it seems they hold well ( at least I never had the pulsion to attack a christian, jew, muslim, boudhist or anything). But of course, if the educational system doesn't have ethical basis, or moral lesson, earlier or later, it will crumble, but you can have those two without religion hopefully. Religions don't have the monopole of "right" and "wrong".
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Old 2012-09-12, 17:29   Link #23404
Sumeragi
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It depends on how you view ethics. In a sense they are forms of religion, in the sense that they teach one how to behave in a certain situation. Human spirituality is interconnected to morality, with religions having a more structured spiritual basis and ethic having more of a moral basis without the accompanying structure related to gods or the afterlife.
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Old 2012-09-12, 17:33   Link #23405
Ithekro
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There was a time that the Western world was not all that different from the Islamic world of today. Perhaps we expect too much to change too quickly over there in a fast paced world when it took our civilizations centuries to get over practical rule by the Church, either with or over the kings and emperors of Europe. Even now there are remains of the vocal Christians that would rather rule by the Bible than by the laws and governments of today.

The Islamic countries and empires use to be ahead of the Europeans when the Europeans were more dominated by the Church than by the governements. But those days have past several hundred years ago. It is entirely possible the European managed to crack the old Muslim states and "blow them back into an earlier age" via Imperialsim and the fall of basically all the old Muslim states by the end of the First World War. While European control over them was not all that long (historically speaking) it seems to have been enough to break them into whatever they have become today.

The Islamic counties of today seem like they are not as well off, culturally, as they were in their prime. Maybe the religious sects have too much power or hold on the people and governments verses back in the day? Sure some countries have taken advantage of Western culture and uplifted so to speak, but others have regressed even more it would seem.

It doesn't help that Islam and Arab are almost interchangable in today's political climate. Some Islamic counties outside the Middle East seem to be doing fine in controlling their more religious half. But the Arabs and Persians seem to be having issues (the Turks to a much lesser extent). It doesn't help that one of the sterotypes for Arabs (and Jews for that matter) is that they like to argue or haggle on everything. Sometimes it isn't a fight they want, just they seem programmed to argue over stuff. It is a stereotype. However, one that, at least on the surface, makes sense.
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Old 2012-09-12, 17:45   Link #23406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
In fact, I fear the problem of the opposite: Any education without a religious or ethical basis is bound to be a problem, where it is a breeding ground for intolerant anti-religious sentiments which in itself is basically the most dangerous of them all.
I'm terribly sorry but that is absolute baloney! Religions are in no way responsible for ethics aside from hijacking them and twisting them for their own purposes. You don't need to believe in the invisible pink unicorn in the sky to have notions of good and evil, bad and good. What you do need is proper education. And by that I don't mean scholar education but parental one, something that western countries have been forgetting quite a bit lately with dire consequences. I can't claim not to care that people need to fear the flying spaghetti monster to be reluctant to do evil deeds because I have a strong conviction that religions are just primitive science gone wrong but you also can't claim that you need that fear of imaginary friends to have that same reluctance.

By claiming that you need something to fear (religion) in order not to do evil is casting all humans as fundamentally evil and I do not believe that.

PS: I'm sure I've been pointed to a few studies that tried to prove that morals dependent on religions but I can't recall where sadly.
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Old 2012-09-12, 17:59   Link #23407
Vexx
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Religions evolve out of inherent moral compasses common to socially cooperative species. And any moral system that discards knowledge in favor of doctrine has probably been hijacked by outliers - you can call them sociopaths, power-mongers, whatever, but power/control has become more important than truth.
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Old 2012-09-12, 18:24   Link #23408
ganbaru
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Obama On Romney’s Libya Response: ‘Shoot First And Aim Later’
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.co...st-aim?ref=fpa
Really appropriate to the situation
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Old 2012-09-12, 18:28   Link #23409
Sumeragi
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@ Dextro: First I believe you're misunderstanding quite a few things about my statement, starting from the thought that you need something to fear in a religion (Shinto certainly is not a religion of fearing things). Furthermore, I believe it to be baloney the basic thought that religion is a problem, since I consider such thoughts to be the very essence of the bigoted "liberal" interpretation of the workings of the world. Any sort of thought that concludes one thing is an evil for the sake of being something is at the core the very intolerance that causes religious radical to do the crimes that happened.
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Old 2012-09-12, 19:05   Link #23410
sa547
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Someone has to hunt down this "Sam Bacile" character, cuff this bastard for provocation and terrorism.

Quote:
The consulate IT expert, Sean Smith, was chatting online to fellow internet gamers (on EVE Online) when it happened. According to another player, who goes by the online handle of The_Mittani, Smith "said 'fuck' and 'gunfire' and then disconnected and never returned".
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Old 2012-09-12, 19:20   Link #23411
TigerII
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So, what will be the justice Obama promised? Missile strikes, troop landings, anyone care to guess?
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Old 2012-09-12, 19:21   Link #23412
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa547 View Post
Someone has to hunt down this "Sam Bacile" character, cuff this bastard for provocation and terrorism.
The details are vague. What is your quoted text from?
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Old 2012-09-12, 19:44   Link #23413
ganbaru
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Origins of Provocative Video Are Shrouded
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.co...st-aim?ref=fpa

‘It Makes Me Sick’: Actress in Muhammed Movie Says She Was Deceived, Had No Idea It Was About Islam
http://gawker.com/5942748/it-makes-m...as-about-islam
Quote:
The script she was given was titled simply Desert Warriors.
"It was going to be a film based on how things were 2,000 years ago," Garcia said. "It wasn't based on anything to do with religion, it was just on how things were run in Egypt. There wasn't anything about Muhammed or Muslims or anything."
How know if it's true or are they trying to cover their ass ?
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Old 2012-09-12, 19:45   Link #23414
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
23 years after the Hillsborough Disaster, a government panel released a report which, to sum up, asserted that everything the media said about it was wrong.

I feel somewhat bad that, being so detached from the event -- it was a British disaster that impacted primarily the British psyche, just like how many non-Americans viewed the persistent 9/11 theme in the United States with bemusement -- I just wondered what kind of retribution Liverpool F.C. fans can now throw back at the rival football fans over the years who liked to mock them for their supposedly infamous hooliganism.
As a Liverpool fan myself, i just want to answer this by saying that there'll be no retribution at all. To even contemplate doing so would be completely wrong and achieve nothing. The fans want to educate and make people understand what happened at Hillsborough rather than indulge in mud-slinging with other fans. Especially given the tragic ramifications it has had on the people involved in the disaster as well as the city of Liverpool as a whole.

The families of those that died that day as well as the survivors and many others have fought tiredlessly for 23 years to make wednesday's announcement happen and have been vindicated in their efforts. Those that made light of this and tried to antagonise Liverpool fans over it have to look at themselves over this and realise what they did was utterly wrong.

More importantly, those involved in the cover up in the police & ambulance services as well as in the media and beyond must be brought to justice over this. They are the true criminals in this, noone else. Hopefully then, the families of the dead will be finally allowed to grieve in peace.
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Old 2012-09-12, 19:46   Link #23415
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
Their countrymen abroad are supposed to conquer the other countries by immigration/increased birth rates.
That's besides the point. We Asian-Americans can do that too if they want to play that game anyway ... except that we love Western society as it is and are willing to defend it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
The thing is, many Muslims extremists do want to add fuel to the fire. They want more violence and fighting. They think humans are disposable when it comes to aligning with "the will of Allah".
It's odd how they keep on desiring violence against Westerners and Christians while I heard no statement from those dangerous idiots about how their "brothers" (the Uyghur people) are treated in Western China (the Beijing government is always harsh against most religions since Mao came to power anyway). Is this just some serious inferiority complex hidden by "the will of Allah" or what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The Islamic countries and empires use to be ahead of the Europeans when the Europeans were more dominated by the Church than by the governements. But those days have past several hundred years ago. It is entirely possible the European managed to crack the old Muslim states and "blow them back into an earlier age" via Imperialsim and the fall of basically all the old Muslim states by the end of the First World War. While European control over them was not all that long (historically speaking) it seems to have been enough to break them into whatever they have become today.

The Islamic counties of today seem like they are not as well off, culturally, as they were in their prime. Maybe the religious sects have too much power or hold on the people and governments verses back in the day? Sure some countries have taken advantage of Western culture and uplifted so to speak, but others have regressed even more it would seem.

It doesn't help that Islam and Arab are almost interchangable in today's political climate. Some Islamic counties outside the Middle East seem to be doing fine in controlling their more religious half. But the Arabs and Persians seem to be having issues (the Turks to a much lesser extent). It doesn't help that one of the sterotypes for Arabs (and Jews for that matter) is that they like to argue or haggle on everything. Sometimes it isn't a fight they want, just they seem programmed to argue over stuff. It is a stereotype. However, one that, at least on the surface, makes sense.
Well, most of the Arab world was under the rule of the Ottoman Empire up until 1918. Of course, using the Arab's hatred of the Turks helped in shattering Arab states into more controllable entities for Western powers (Although Lawrence of Arabia was hoping for an unified Arab country). Still, that should never be an excuse for the people to remain ignorant while the remains of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey) still developed itself as a society although it was not that easy. Perhaps religious sects have more power in some countries indeed when you consider that Iran and Lebanon used to be near paradises before the fundamentalists arrived. You mentioned about haggling and arguing over everything, and that's a good point. However, human minds should also be programmed to say when enough is enough; at least, that's what I want to see from them.

I thought that having worldwide information traveling so fast nowadays would help more people seeing what's good and what's bad in other societies so the Middle-East would know where to go and how to do it, but it still isn't enough. Perhaps the Arab world would need of their own version of Gandhi, Martin Luther King, John Paul II or anyone with more than enough charisma to propose something new with respect of others as well. I'm only surprised there was not such character emerging from that region yet.
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Old 2012-09-12, 20:03   Link #23416
DonQuigleone
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This whole incident gets a lot shadier. It's entirely possible that this film is an elaborate piece of "agitprop", a false flag tailor made to inflame muslims. Consider this:

‘It Makes Me Sick’: Actress in Muhammed Movie Says She Was Deceived, Had No Idea It Was About Islam
Quote:
The story of the Muhammed movie which sparked deadly protests in Libya and Egypt gets weirder. The actors who appeared in it had no idea they were starring in anti-Islam propaganda which depicts Muhammed as a child molester and thug. They were deceived by the film's director, believing they were appearing in a film about the life of a generic Egyptian 2,000 years ago.
...
According to Garica, her three days on set last July were unremarkable. The film's mysterious pseudonymous writer and director, "Sam Bacile," has claimed to be an Israeli real estate mogul. But Garcia said Bacile told her he was Egyptian on set. Bacile had white hair and spoke Arabic to a number of "dark-skinned" men who hung around the set, she said. (A Bacile associate also told The Atlantic he wasn't Israeli or Jewish.)
If you watch the trailer, you'll notice that all the names are overdubbed. What also has to be considered is that the film was then again dubbed into Arabic, where in fact it's a lot better acted, and the obvious overdubbing is absent. Unfortunately, while I could find the Arabic version of the trailer earlier, it has since disappeared. I don't think it was ever intended for Western audiences. But for Arabic audiences, it works perfectly. In fact, from my (very limited) knowledge of Arabic culture, some of the mockery of Muhammed does not feel like a westerner would have written it, specifically the section where Mohammed calls the Ass "the first Muslim animal".

Two scenarios seem plausible to me:
1. It was designed by american Christian Fundamentalists/radical anti-Arab Copts to stir up trouble in the middle east and spread negative perceptions of the region in the US, by fuelling attacks on Americans by the far right in the Middle East.
Evidence in favour: The film was first publicised by Terry Jones (of Koran burning fame) and on an anti-islamic copt blog.
2. It was designed by Islamist Arabs to stir up negative sentiment against the US(and Israel) in Egypt and Libya, in a region that is currently better disposed towards the US due to it's support of the Arab Spring.
Evidence in favour: The director seemed to speak Arabic, and it works better in Arabic then in English. The Sam Bacile profile on Youtube has commented on Arabic videos.

Something else to consider is that the film (and Sam Bacile himself) seems to stress it's Jewish origins. There's a prominent section with a "good jewish woman" being killed and raped by Mohammed, and of course Sam Bacile himself has stressed that he's Israeli, and was funded to the tune of $5 million by "100 wealthy jewish donors".

I'm not usually one to go in for Conspiracy theories, but this seems a lot like a conspiracy to me! It's a "false flag operation", intended to create anti-American violence in the middle east. They succeeded in doing so, but the real question is, what's the motive? Whose behind this? How is it that on the one hand you have a well known radical Christian (Jones), and on the other Jihadists.

The timing on September 11 (and during the US election cycle) also seems damn convenient as well. It's entirely possible that the militants who stormed the compound were in on the whole thing.
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Old 2012-09-12, 20:08   Link #23417
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Perhaps the Arab world would need of their own version of Gandhi, Martin Luther King, John Paul II or anyone with more than enough charisma to propose something new with respect of others as well. I'm only surprised there was not such character emerging from that region yet.

I hate to say it, but someone like that from the Arab world would most likely be murdered before they gained any real traction. : -\ Once they started gaining some sort of traction, that's it, they're finished. Extremists would make sure to shut him up, and by that, that means taking his life.
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Old 2012-09-12, 20:19   Link #23418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
It's odd how they keep on desiring violence against Westerners and Christians while I heard no statement from those dangerous idiots about how their "brothers" (the Uyghur people) are treated in Western China (the Beijing government is always harsh against most religions since Mao came to power anyway). Is this just some serious inferiority complex hidden by "the will of Allah" or what?
Because China would simply kill them all without any regard for collateral damage. In international politics, it pays to be a complete bastard.



Quote:
. Perhaps the Arab world would need of their own version of Gandhi, Martin Luther King, John Paul II or anyone with more than enough charisma to propose something new with respect of others as well. I'm only surprised there was not such character emerging from that region yet.
wouldn't work. MLK and Gandhi were fighting against OUTSIDE enemies. The Islamic world needs someone to fight the battle inside.

PS. Calling a Persian or a Turk a Arab and you will lucky to just get a punch in the face.
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Old 2012-09-12, 20:46   Link #23419
Urzu 7
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
This whole incident gets a lot shadier. It's entirely possible that this film is an elaborate piece of "agitprop", a false flag tailor made to inflame muslims. Consider this:

‘It Makes Me Sick’: Actress in Muhammed Movie Says She Was Deceived, Had No Idea It Was About Islam


If you watch the trailer, you'll notice that all the names are overdubbed. What also has to be considered is that the film was then again dubbed into Arabic, where in fact it's a lot better acted, and the obvious overdubbing is absent. Unfortunately, while I could find the Arabic version of the trailer earlier, it has since disappeared. I don't think it was ever intended for Western audiences. But for Arabic audiences, it works perfectly. In fact, from my (very limited) knowledge of Arabic culture, some of the mockery of Muhammed does not feel like a westerner would have written it, specifically the section where Mohammed calls the Ass "the first Muslim animal".

Two scenarios seem plausible to me:
1. It was designed by american Christian Fundamentalists/radical anti-Arab Copts to stir up trouble in the middle east and spread negative perceptions of the region in the US, by fuelling attacks on Americans by the far right in the Middle East.
Evidence in favour: The film was first publicised by Terry Jones (of Koran burning fame) and on an anti-islamic copt blog.
2. It was designed by Islamist Arabs to stir up negative sentiment against the US(and Israel) in Egypt and Libya, in a region that is currently better disposed towards the US due to it's support of the Arab Spring.
Evidence in favour: The director seemed to speak Arabic, and it works better in Arabic then in English. The Sam Bacile profile on Youtube has commented on Arabic videos.

Something else to consider is that the film (and Sam Bacile himself) seems to stress it's Jewish origins. There's a prominent section with a "good jewish woman" being killed and raped by Mohammed, and of course Sam Bacile himself has stressed that he's Israeli, and was funded to the tune of $5 million by "100 wealthy jewish donors".

I'm not usually one to go in for Conspiracy theories, but this seems a lot like a conspiracy to me! It's a "false flag operation", intended to create anti-American violence in the middle east. They succeeded in doing so, but the real question is, what's the motive? Whose behind this? How is it that on the one hand you have a well known radical Christian (Jones), and on the other Jihadists.

The timing on September 11 (and during the US election cycle) also seems damn convenient as well. It's entirely possible that the militants who stormed the compound were in on the whole thing.
It very well could be an Islamist extremist who wanted to incite violence against westerners and Israelis. I'm convinced that this "Sam Bacile" is not a Jew. If he was a Jewish person who loves Israel and loves his people, why would he make this film so incredibly, shamelessly, blatantly hate filled and incendiary and then make it a point to proclaim himself a Jew and emphasize that and emphasize getting "100 donation from wealthy Jews" when he would know full well that all this would lead to violence against Israelis? That's right, a Jewish person wouldn't do all this. Sam Bacile isn't Jewish. Who ever made this is framing Jews and trying to create enough hateful anger to lead to the death of Jews and Westerners. This "Sam Bacile" has got to be a Muslim extremist.
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Old 2012-09-12, 20:49   Link #23420
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Because China would simply kill them all without any regard for collateral damage. In international politics, it pays to be a complete bastard.

wouldn't work. MLK and Gandhi were fighting against OUTSIDE enemies. The Islamic world needs someone to fight the battle inside.

PS. Calling a Persian or a Turk a Arab and you will lucky to just get a punch in the face.
Well, some Russians tried that with Chechenya and then the Chechens launched several deadly attacks in response during the late Yeltsin years and the early Putin years. What I meant there is that while the Chechens recieve help from the Middle-East djihadists, it isn't the case with the Uyghur people. The way the Beijing government would react is not quite an explanation about the double standard here.

I thought MLK fought against racism and segregation seen WITHIN his own country. Anyway, that kind of pacifist might pay the price with his life, but it's part of how they achieve immortality if the people follow the ideals. Someone someday will have to come up, raise the right questions and rally the people with a pacific approach. It happened before, it happened in many countries and it has to happen again

Re-PS.: I always separated the Turks from the rest of the Middle East from that knowing how proud they stand now with their more modern society compared to a number of countries in the area. It's funny when you consider the Turks had Persia, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Northern Africa and the entire Arabian peninsula, but then not many of them folllowed progress.

Unfortunately for the Persians (mainly Iranians), they seem to enjoy getting mixed up with all the stuff involving Arabs these days. Anyway, most of the problems do happen in the Arab world; so, I'm not quite off the map here.
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