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Old 2012-09-12, 20:53   Link #23421
NK_500
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Muhammad himself feed a blind old Jewish beggar with his hands and I don't see why that director are making that up unless he just want to spread hatred.
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Old 2012-09-12, 20:54   Link #23422
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
It very well could be an Islamist extremist who wanted to incite violence against westerners and Israelis. I'm convinced that this "Sam Bacile" is not a Jew. If he was a Jewish person who loves Israel and loves his people, why would he make this film so incredibly, shamelessly, blatantly hate filled and incendiary and then make it a point to proclaim himself a Jew and emphasize that and emphasize getting "100 donation from wealthy Jews" when he would know full well that all this would lead to violence against Israelis? That's right, a Jewish person wouldn't do all this. Sam Bacile isn't Jewish. Who ever made this is framing Jews and trying to create enough hateful anger to lead to the death of Jews and Westerners. This "Sam Bacile" has got to be a Muslim extremist.
I think it's equally plausible to originate in the US among the "Terry Jones Islam hating crowd", but I do agree that it's not Jewish in origin. If it was Jewish in origin I dare say it would be a lot more subtle about advertising it's "Jewish" credentials. When Jews fund and make political films (and it certainly does happen) they tend to downplay their Jewishness, not play it up.

Of course it's equally possible that Terry Jones is just pawn in all this


To be honest, I don't know whose behind this. However, I've never seen Islamicists use such a cynical tactic before. It doesn't feel like the sort of thing they'd do. Call it a gut feeling, but I don't think it's a Muslim Extremist who made this. Regardless, the mysterious Sam Basile was an agent provocateur. He made this film specifically to create hatred and violence.
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Old 2012-09-12, 20:57   Link #23423
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
It very well could be an Islamist extremist who wanted to incite violence against westerners and Israelis. I'm convinced that this "Sam Bacile" is not a Jew. If he was a Jewish person who loves Israel and loves his people, why would he make this film so incredibly, shamelessly, blatantly hate filled and incendiary and then make it a point to proclaim himself a Jew and emphasize that and emphasize getting "100 donation from wealthy Jews" when he would know full well that all this would lead to violence against Israelis? That's right, a Jewish person wouldn't do all this. Sam Bacile isn't Jewish. Who ever made this is framing Jews and trying to create enough hateful anger to lead to the death of Jews and Westerners. This "Sam Bacile" has got to be a Muslim extremist.
I agree with that theory. Usually, most Israelis and Jews are more low-profile people when it comes to this kind of stuff; I would be very surprised if the guy who made this video is Jewish.

If this was indeed made to invite hateful reactions as seen in Egypt and Lybia, it's even more baffling how many people took the bait without a second thought. Hence my previous statement: having second thoughts is not a forte in that region.
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Old 2012-09-12, 20:59   Link #23424
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I think it's equally plausible to originate in the US among the "Terry Jones Islam hating crowd", but I do agree that it's not Jewish in origin. If it was Jewish in origin I dare say it would be a lot more subtle about advertising it's "Jewish" credentials. When Jews fund and make political films (and it certainly does happen) they tend to downplay their Jewishness, not play it up.
Yeah, agreed, the director and others involved are most definitely not Jewish. I'm not going to rule out this film being made my Christian fundies trying to stir the pot, but the director is said to speak Arabic, he told people he was Egyptian (and people bought it), and it would just make more sense for a Muslim extremist to make and promote this film knowing it'll lead to the death of westerners than for Christian fundies to make this film and dub in Arabic, where the acting works better in Arabic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
To be honest, I don't know whose behind this. However, I've never seen Islamicists use such a cynical tactic before. It doesn't feel like the sort of thing they'd do. Call it a gut feeling, but I don't think it's a Muslim Extremist who made this. Regardless, the mysterious Sam Basile was an agent provocateur. He made this film specifically to create hatred and violence.
No, I can see Muslim extremists using such a tactic as this. I can definitely see that. Muslim extremists will do just about anything for their goals. Last decade, I remember reading some Al Qaeda terrorist plots that they (Al Qaeda) concocted, and one of them was to take one of their terrorists and infect them with a very contagious bio-hazard material (something from a biological weapons lab); have them keep the material contained and then infect themselves with it and then once contagious, immediately go into a very busy airport terminal for the U.S./western countries and do all they can to spread around the pathogen. If Al Qaeda was considering a plan like that, than certainly some Muslim extremist in America could make a hateful anti-Islam movie in the hopes of inciting violence against westerners and Jews.
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Old 2012-09-12, 21:01   Link #23425
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
If this was indeed made to invite hateful reactions as seen in Egypt and Lybia, it's even more baffling how many people took the bait without a second thought. Hence my previous statement: having second thoughts is not a forte in that region.
Having second thoughts is not a forte of any regions: Anyone without the strongest resolve would take the bait when it hits at the weakest and most emotional point.
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Old 2012-09-12, 21:03   Link #23426
ganbaru
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US sends Marines to Libya after deadly attack
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...09-12-20-33-45
La marine américaine envoie deux navires vers la Libye ( US Navy send 2 ship toward Libya )
http://www.lapresse.ca/international...s-la-libye.php ( article in french)
So they send a moderate force, the marine force being a anti-terrorist group are to protect the embassy in Tripoly and 2 destroyer aren't such big threat even if they could launch some cruise missiles or refuel some choppers. I don't think than such effectifs would be enough for a big op. They could still try, if they have some target(s) to ''reply with tomahawk'' like in the Clinton era but it isn't much likely.
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Old 2012-09-12, 21:07   Link #23427
TigerII
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Whatever the reasoning behind it, the desired effects occurred. The Muslim world is aflame against the US and the US is possibly going to retaliate, therefore causing even more action against it.
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Old 2012-09-12, 21:12   Link #23428
Urzu 7
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Whatever the reasoning behind it, the desired effects occurred. The Muslim world is aflame against the US and the US is possibly going to retaliate, therefore causing even more action against it.
I hope the U.S. doesn't retaliate. That'll just make things worse. They should just target this "Sam Bacile" jerk. Find him and interrogate him and find out the truth about him.
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Old 2012-09-12, 21:17   Link #23429
KiraYamatoFan
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I hope the U.S. doesn't retaliate. That'll just make things worse. They should just target this "Sam Bacile" jerk. Find him and interrogate him and find out the truth about him.
If the FBI is as good as they say it is, they should be able to find that bastard in no time. Just with the charges of diffusing hateful content over the internet, that guy is good to serve time in jail.

Last edited by KiraYamatoFan; 2012-09-12 at 21:47.
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Old 2012-09-12, 21:18   Link #23430
Vexx
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I believe if I heard right, the US is actively seeking the *specific* individuals involved with the attack with the help of the local government. That isn't "attacking the Muslim world" or "retaliating", etc. That is treating them like the criminals they are, instead of letting them claim themselves as "warriors" or whatever bogus rot they may be asserting.

I suppose they could try for "inciting a riot" with the dangerous idiots who made the film. But I like to focus on people who *actually hurt* other people. The attackers had plenty of non-violent choices to respond with but chose the "two year old tantrum with a gun"...
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Old 2012-09-12, 21:23   Link #23431
Urzu 7
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I believe if I heard right, the US is actively seeking the *specific* individuals involved with the attack with the help of the local government. That isn't "attacking the Muslim world" or "retaliating", etc. That is treating them like the criminals they are, instead of letting them claim themselves as "warriors" or whatever bogus rot they may be asserting.
So "retaliating" is just the U.S. media doing what they do best: spreading misinformation, in this case by means of painting the wrong picture?

And I trust the Obama administration on these matters more than I would a Romney administration. I trust the Obama administration and democrats on this so much more. The Obama administration is trying to work with the local government. I'm afraid that the GOP responding to something like this would be with more force and aggression, which is not what we would need for something like this; Not. at. all.
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Old 2012-09-12, 21:34   Link #23432
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
So "retaliating" is just the U.S. media doing what they do best: spreading misinformation, in this case by means of painting the wrong picture?
My opinion of the general media in the US drops on a daily basis. They don't even seem to consult *dictionaries* any more when choosing words to use. They seem to use a "flamebait" guide or something -- gets more eyeballs to view the ads I guess.
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Old 2012-09-12, 21:46   Link #23433
DonQuigleone
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From what I've seen so far, the Assault on the embassy, and murder of the diplomats, may have been separate from the riots, and pre-planned.

The plot thickens.

I'll stand by what I've said earlier, making a film to ignite anti-west feelings doesn't seem to be the style of Islamicists. Attacking embassies, of course, is.

My guess at the moment, is that the director's knowledge of Arabic may be due to him being an Egyptian Copt, but not a muslim. There's a fair number of Copts out there with an axe to grind. Though, on the flip side, the film does seem to noticeably contain "heroic" Egyptian Christians. This film is a complete enigma. If it's made by a radical Muslim, I doubt he's linked to radical jihadis. As I said, this kind of thing is too cynical for them.

@Urzu7: I think Islamicists are all for crazy martyrdom tactics (including your self infection example), but cynically pretending to make a film in order to incite people to violence. It doesn't feel like their style, because they've consistently shown themselves to believe their own bullcrap. They've never done something this circular and cynical.

Likewise, when I initially heard of the Breivik attacks in Norway, while many were speculating that it was Islamic extremists, my gut instinct told me this was not so, as Islamicists don't tend to use the kind of tactics Breivik used(namely mass shootings and anonymous bombings). I think the same will be borne out here.
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Old 2012-09-12, 21:52   Link #23434
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The plot thickens.
indeed

Quote:
Video excerpts from an anti-Muslim movie provoked assaults by mobs on U.S. missions in Egypt and Libya. But the man who says he directed and wrote it has little or no record of existing, has made other claims that appear false and says he has gone into hiding.He identified himself in a telephone interview with The Associated Press as Sam Bacile. He said he was an Israeli-born Jewish writer and the director of "Innocence of Muslims." Bacile was the name used to publish excerpts of the movie online as early as July 2.
But his background came under growing doubt Wednesday. A Christian activist who said he was a consultant on the film told The Atlantic that Bacile was a pseudonym and that the man was not Jewish or Israeli. Israeli officials said there was no record of him being a citizen.


http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/A...bt-3858080.php

once we know who the money man is then we know who is behind it all.
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Old 2012-09-12, 22:06   Link #23435
KiraYamatoFan
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The plot thickens.
Ironic thing is that I was just rewatching FMA Brotherhood and the whole stuff about an obscure force creating uprising situations as the excuse for Amestris to send their troops to make more bloodshed while the country cut all ties with its neighbors. Indeed, a reaction from the Romney administration would be your typical Amestrian approach.

At least, I trust Obama in working things out with local governments just like several Democrat predecessors did before him. After all, Bill Clinton faced the same problems before, didn't he?
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Old 2012-09-12, 22:12   Link #23436
Urzu 7
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
My guess at the moment, is that the director's knowledge of Arabic may be due to him being an Egyptian Copt, but not a muslim. There's a fair number of Copts out there with an axe to grind. Though, on the flip side, the film does seem to noticeably contain "heroic" Egyptian Christians. This film is a complete enigma. If it's made by a radical Muslim, I doubt he's linked to radical jihadis. As I said, this kind of thing is too cynical for them.
What is an Egyptian Copt?

Also, the embassy attack happened on September 11th or September 12th? It could be related to the anniversary of September 11th. A planned terrorist plot having nothing to do with the outrage over the film.
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Old 2012-09-12, 22:14   Link #23437
KiraYamatoFan
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
What is an Egyptian Copt?

Also, the embassy attack happened on September 11th or September 12th? It could be related to the anniversary of September 11th. A planned terrorist plot having nothing to do with the outrage over the film.
Copts are a small Christian group in Egypt.

The attacks were made yesterday (September 11). Perhaps a coincidence or it might have been planned too.
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Old 2012-09-12, 22:33   Link #23438
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riskbreaker
As a Liverpool fan myself, i just want to answer this by saying that there'll be no retribution at all. To even contemplate doing so would be completely wrong and achieve nothing. The fans want to educate and make people understand what happened at Hillsborough rather than indulge in mud-slinging with other fans. Especially given the tragic ramifications it has had on the people involved in the disaster as well as the city of Liverpool as a whole.
Oh no, I don't mean retribution in any violent sense, simply some verbal return at all the abuse Merseyside had to take over the years.

This is hardly the "happy ending" of the tragedy; I'm sure in the coming months convictions will be flowing in, if Cameron is serious about his apology.

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Copts are a small Christian group in Egypt.
Not small; at least 10%, and historically important. They literally were always there before the Muslims.

However, the majority leaders of Egyptian Copts are moving in solidarity with their Muslim countrymen. This may have been a self-defense reaction to prevent the majority from conducting the witchhunt, now that some leads point to a potential involvement of an American Copt. Tensions have been high since the chaos of the revolution, with the Copts distrusting the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood's intentions.
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Old 2012-09-12, 22:43   Link #23439
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Copts are a small Christian group in Egypt.
Not that small. The CIA Factbook estimates Copts represent 9% of the Egyptian population, or about seven million people. (Whoops, Irenicus beat me to it while I was busy reading the weather forecast for the Senkaku islands!)


Japanese Government Considered Eight Plans for Senkakus, Chose Least Assertive


The Noda Government has offered two billion yen (about $25 million) to the private owners of the three islands it will purchase from their current owner. The owner had to be persuaded not to sell them to the Tokyo Metropolitan Government as proposed by Ishihara. It wasn't clear whether a bidding war had taken place, nor why Ishihara did not try harder to enforce Plan D described below, which he claimed was the minimum required for the TMG to withdraw its proposal to purchase the islands instead.

Meanwhile the Government came up with eight plans for what it might do with these newly-acquired chunks of rock, ranked according to how threatening they would be to China and Taiwan. Plan A, which was eventually adopted, calls for doing nothing. Noda himself favored Plan C which would have repaired a lighthouse on one of the islands. Plan D would have implemented Ishihara's plan to build a facility to shelter fishing boats. Noda apparently gave that some serious consideration as well, much to the consternation of his Foreign Secretary and the diplomatic staff. Eventually the Prime Minister was persuaded to adopt Plan A. Ishihara's opinions were not reported.

Plan H called for the stationing of members of the Self-Defense Force on the islands 24/7. In a masterpiece of understatement, the Foreign Ministry staff who drew up the options included a note that read "It is hard to foresee how strongly China and Taiwan would oppose this."

In other news, the Chinese Meterological Administration has begun publishing the weather forecast for the Diaoyu, as they call them. They already publish forecasts for the weather in the area around the various other disputed islands in the South China Sea. Today's forecast for the Senkakus, according to the Wall Street Journal, was "partly cloudy with a chance of patrol boats." The comments to this article make for some disturbing reading.
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Old 2012-09-12, 23:00   Link #23440
Urzu 7
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SeijiSensei, what is going on near Japan? Is this Japan and China disputing over islands that are above oil deposits? Can you elaborate on this issue going on there?
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