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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 10
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 114 53.52%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 48 22.54%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 25 11.74%
7 out of 10 : Good... 10 4.69%
6 out of 10 : Average... 7 3.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 1 0.47%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 3 1.41%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 1 0.47%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 4 1.88%
Voters: 213. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-13, 05:05   Link #561
Quadratic
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Quadratic: Well, I don't think there are a lot of people stronger than he is, one on one. He just isn't the very best, 'cause that spot's taken by Heathcliff. And as Kradeel showed, he's still vulnerable to trickery.
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I'm still not sure about the conclusions you've reached. Here's how I see it:

1. Kirito is a powerful solo-player (and former beta tester), whose level and abilities exceeds that of most others around him. (This is why he gets respect on the front-lines, even though he's a solo player and not part of any guild.)

2. Kirito's (basically) soloing the 74th floor boss fight was an unusual, legendary feat worthy of repute throughout Aincrad.

3. Heathcliff is also a legendary player with a unique skill, and many turned out to see a good fight.

4. Kirito is, however, not invulnerable. He loses to Heathcliff, and nearly loses his life due to Kuradeel's betrayal. He comes to the realization that soloing, as he's been doing for these last two year, has reached its limits, and he finds a partner he can trust in Asuna.
The thing with Kirito's strength is, yes he is powerful, but the way the whole 'unique skill' aspect was brushed aside fairly quickly leads me to believe there's more players out there with some unique skill.
Also, Asuna and Klein didn't appear to be at risk for the 10 seconds Kirito requested, so it seems possible that the boss can still be held off by a (standard?) 2-man group unless we also want to promote them as being much more powerful as well (Asuna I could believe, Klein...well, maybe).
Can't remember if anyone ever claimed the guild leader was the top dog. I'm expecting some silly twist like, you were only beaten by number 100!

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Honestly, I don't really understand the elements you're prioritizing and now re-prioritizing in the show. It seems like we're watching a different show unfold. I think the side stories are intricately connected and foundational to the events we're seeing take place now. You've obviously come up with a rationalization that helps you make sense of what you've seen (or rather explains the "lack of sense" you see), but your explanation makes even less sense to me than the show as presented. To each their own, I guess...
The point is that I had overly complicated the elements trying to fit them in many parts of what the show had currently shown, but the whole point of side stories are that they have a single context from the main story and drive off a single point.
Sure, there's a few bits and pieces that continue on into the other side stories but they merely hooks into other points being driven.
This is exactly why you present a side story after you present the necessary context, otherwise you just randomly pick a context. Pick the right one, no complaints, pick the wrong one, rage on a thread -> bashed by people who knew the context.

How you interpret these side stories can wildly differ from the intended point because of how the story unfolded differently. The reason for this is because the context was never given in our case.
This is why I thought things like the being a solo-player/beater would something that would be explored, but it was nothing more than hooks to other points. If I had known the main story quickly established Kirito getting married, like I do now, I wouldn't have complained about that aspect at all because it wasn't an aspect that was meant to be explored at all.

The super-Kirito argument was to show how easy it is to be careless with your train of thought.
On the face value, it can be interpreted the show was presenting Kirito doing grander and grander things, but that was probably the unintentional effect of moving them in chronological order.

Also, I don't mean to imply the side stories are pointless, I argue they are misplaced.
Trying to promote non-critical elements as important elements and place things in the chronological order sacrificed the context they originally came with.
The whole 'wait and see how it becomes relevant' approach doesn't work for me because it's just a big let down upon reveal.
'Wait and see' is for foreshadowing things, flashbacks/side stories are to flesh out points raised in the main story.
Foreshadowing a side story is convoluted, in my opinion.


EDIT: Ok, ok. I'll stop this pointless argument. I had no intention coming here to keep pissing people off.

Last edited by Quadratic; 2012-09-13 at 05:28.
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Old 2012-09-13, 05:51   Link #562
Wild Goose
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Look, at the end of the day, are you entertained? Do you enjoy watching this show?

That is what everything boils down to in the end. Let's not lose sight of that, folks.
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Old 2012-09-13, 06:16   Link #563
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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
It was explained in Episode 4 that Kirito had 600HP regen/10 seconds at Level 78. He's now Level 96, so you could probably assume that with improved gear, stats and scaling abilities, his regen is over 1,000HP/10 secs.
wah~ MMO terms incoming! run for the hills... circle the wagons!

Why would you ever assume, in a scaling MMO environment, that after being maybe 20% higher level (napkin math, I'm certain I'm wrong, but 78-96 another 18 levels) that his regen ability would come close to doubling? And while his gear might be improved, don't make assumptions that he's in BiS end-game gear. He's in boss- and monster-drop gear with some crafted stuff... but he's still leveling, like everyone else. We've seen his gear change often enough previously to assume he's in damn fine gear, but it's all very light-weight (read that as crappy looking to everyone else) gear that is terrible for tanking. Make the assumption that his battle regen ability fits his playstyle, slow recovery vs. monsters that can't knock his health down more than 10-20% and the regen ability makes perfect sense in context. Just like Asuna, his gear is glass cannon type-stuff... You tank with your gank, etc.

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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
One more thing...a heal crystal that's full HP restore regardless of level? That's OP...if those things don't have cooldowns, they'd better be damn hard to get or stockpiling up on those would make one pretty capable of surviving almost anything.
Kuradeel, a standard player in the most powerful guild in the game is shown to have two. That's a last-ditch life and death save button (in a death game, no less), not a "Oh, my health is getting low, guess I should pop this cooldown, it'll be up in a few hours again" type thing.

o'tay, nuff of that, back to English for my next reply!

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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Look, at the end of the day, are you entertained? Do you enjoy watching this show?

That is what everything boils down to in the end. Let's not lose sight of that, folks.
Not empty quoting.

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Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
The point is that I had overly complicated the elements trying to fit them in many parts of what the show had currently shown, but the whole point of side stories are that they have a single context from the main story and drive off a single point..
If you take the storyline to be 'people "living" in a MMO', I think you could argue the side stores are perfectly in context. But honestly at this stage of the show (not every half-way in) they could still throw us some fast-balls and change things up.
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Old 2012-09-13, 06:39   Link #564
Iron Maw
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
KirGot a few examples? There are certainly some glaring issues in the LN's of this one, but less in the anime. The only thing I can think of, off-hand, are the details surrounding Scillia and the whole Pet Tamer 'class'... an arc which introduced us to other elements which have been a consistent and reoccurring plot point.
Off the top of my head at the moment:

-The tracking skill and how Kirito used it find Saichi, but not Lizbeth for whatever reason. IIRC the author tried to clear it up, but the answer wasn't really satisfying. One person suggested that Kirito didn't use for story thematic reasons which was pretty poor excuse. The skill's function was never properly explained anyway, Kirito just chose the option then that was it.
-There was also the whole potion thing back in ep2 that was hotly argued where Kirito forcibly attempted to heal that Beta-tester in Kobold fight. This apparently never even happened in the LN, so this was just the anime writer taking liberties to make things more dramatic without checking if was consistent with the characters or world.

There might be more, but anything else such as "Sleep PK" have only ever been mentioned within own arc, "Friend list" and "Durability" not withstanding.

I don't blame people in seeing battle-regen issue as an inconsistency either. Anime never makes it clear whether it was still effectively on and Kuradeel was simply out DPSing it or paralysis had it stopped. Kirito could have at least made some sort of off-hand comment, but instead we got "no show or tell" here. I wouldn't be surprised it just brushed aside for drama since it's not exactly the first time it has happened.

EDIT: There is also characterization issues notably on Asuna and a bit on Kirito that was heavily debated, but since this more on mechanics, so I'll leave that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Look, at the end of the day, are you entertained? Do you enjoy watching this show?

That is what everything boils down to in the end. Let's not lose sight of that, folks.
Generally, yes.

Last edited by Iron Maw; 2012-09-13 at 07:01.
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Old 2012-09-13, 06:39   Link #565
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
If you take the storyline to be 'people "living" in a MMO', I think you could argue the side stores are perfectly in context.
Right, though I'd say he's been saying something akin to that as well:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic
Pick the right one, no complaints, pick the wrong one, rage on a thread -> bashed by people who knew the context.
Because the anime isn't terribly clear on what context the story is meant to be portrayed, some people took the wrong context and came out bewildered by the presentation. This has been apparent since the early days of this show I think.
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Old 2012-09-13, 06:49   Link #566
zaz122
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How hard is it to accept that battle healing's Heal over time effect is less than that of the damage being dealt by Kuradel? Because a bunch of low level thugs with low level gear couldn't put a dent on him? I find it interesting that people are still asking about that skill this deep into the page count.

MMO speak inc.

This is equivalent to what my Vit. Knight used to do outside Prontera, aggro a bunch of porings and then /sit while they beat down on me as my HP just regens just to show off to lowbie players. Can I do the same thing with Requims and Requim Archers? Nope.. I'd die if I don't spam potions. It all comes down to the numbers.
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Old 2012-09-13, 07:15   Link #567
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
I guess not.. its probably its how the maker's wants to see what is going on in slowmo.... We they keep it fast.. there is no way they can make us see what is happening and what they were thinking at the particular second...
He did a bit too much damage for my liking, but that could be a result of Kirito's light armor. But him suddenly moving in a way the sword wouldn't hit him while it should have actually cut right through him is pretty suspicious.

The next thing bothering me is that the expression Hearthcliff has shown after Kirito's defeat was... Well Like has was mad for some reason and Kirito was the cause of it.
It reminded me much on the Clockmaster's face when he told Batman that the Mayor made him being late.
So the result of this Analogy would be that Kirito made him cheat in some way.
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Old 2012-09-13, 07:54   Link #568
Adigard
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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
-The tracking skill and how Kirito used it find Saichi, but not Lizbeth for whatever reason. IIRC the author tried to clear it up, but the answer wasn't really satisfying. One person suggested that Kirito didn't use for story thematic reasons which was pretty poor excuse. The skill's function was never properly explained anyway, Kirito just chose the option then that was it.
That one's really hard to debate appropriately. The only thing we have to go off is Kirito's statement that he climbed a clock tower to find someone who wasn't really in the line of sight of the tower. We don't even have a PoV of Kirito doing the search. He just finds her.

In one case it's someone likely on his friend list, in his guild, whom he's known for quite a long time... in the other it's someone he's known for less than 24 hours and likely isn't on his friend list.

Too many variables really. We just don't know the requirements of using that tracking skill. OTOH, being able to stalk / track random MMO player's inside a town does sound... icky, so I'm tempted to go with Kirito's clock tower statement.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
-There was also the whole potion thing back in ep2 that was hotly argued where Kirito forcibly attempted to heal that Beta-tester in Kobold fight. This apparently never even happened in the LN, so this was just the anime writer taking liberties to make things more dramatic without checking if was consistent with the characters or world.
I'm going with assgrab from the adaptor's on that one. There's nothing to suggest that boss would have a DoT effect to his attacks, although we have seen a scene with the Army boss fight where the leader was around for a bit after being 'killed'. So maybe it's consistent. I'd have to compare the two scenes to say for sure.

Excellent points though. The original LN had a fair amount of consistency issues which will likely vanish in the re-write.

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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Right, though I'd say he's been saying something akin to that as well:
Wasn't trying to bash or disprove anything Quadratic was saying in his post, just agreeing that the plot does make sense, but it might not be the plot everyone expected.
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Old 2012-09-13, 08:51   Link #569
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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
It was explained in Episode 4 that Kirito had 600HP regen/10 seconds at Level 78. He's now Level 96, so you could probably assume that with improved gear, stats and scaling abilities, his regen is over 1,000HP/10 secs.
While I assume it goes up since he never indicated he maxed the skill, I doubt it's almost doubled since we last saw it in use. We have no idea if stats affect this skill, or if it's purely based on how proficient you are in the skill. Despite it's name, it is almost certainly closer to being an after combat healing skill for those who don't want to lug around pouchfuls of crystals or potions when fighting in level appropriate areas. And while I can't say for sure it isn't exactly like you describe, we simply lack the information to know how levels scale skills like this to really say anything about how these things work.
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Old 2012-09-13, 09:28   Link #570
Quadratic
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
If you take the storyline to be 'people "living" in a MMO', I think you could argue the side stores are perfectly in context. But honestly at this stage of the show (not every half-way in) they could still throw us some fast-balls and change things up.
Yes that works, but you really needed prior knowledge that that's what the show was aiming for. In my eyes, they had a momentum going, only to just suddenly pick a new direction.
The correct approach, in my opinion, would be to finish what you started (not necessarily all the way, but find a decent stopping point where ever that may be), or don't start it at all (though that'll probably be the harder thing to do given the premise of the show).
Let's be honest, each story have some real point to it, otherwise they could've just shown us X number of the same episodes about baking and delivering delicious bread to some new randomly introduced nobody, since that's just "living" in an MMO. (Oh crap, they better not switch the show to be about selling sandwiches...).

Anyway, the side stories are out of the way so we're provided less intrusion for whatever direction they're heading in now, so that's probably a plus.
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Old 2012-09-13, 10:10   Link #571
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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I have a question though. If a character can be made unconscious by a non-poison/paralyzing attack (like what happened to Kirito after he solo’d the floor boss & when Asuna knocked Kirito out in this episode) while the victim’s HP still remains, wouldn’t that be an easy victory/kill for the attacker (both monsters & players)?

Lets say during A & B’s fight, if A can knock B unconscious with A’s first attack, finishing B after that would be a child’s play for A.
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Old 2012-09-13, 10:24   Link #572
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I have a question though. If a character can be made unconscious by a non-poison/paralyzing attack (like what happened to Kirito after he solo’d the floor boss & when Asuna knocked Kirito out in this episode) while the victim’s HP still remains, wouldn’t that be an easy victory/kill for the attacker (both monsters & players)?

Lets say during A & B’s fight, if A can knock B unconscious with A’s first attack, finishing B after that would be a child’s play for A.
Yes? Think that's semi-obvious. You're still the person behind the virtual avatar. If you fall asleep due to sleep deprivation, or lose consciousness for a few seconds from stress you'd absolutely be an easy kill for any roaming monster assuming you're in a dungeon (which are rather common in some MMO's).

Asuna KO'ed Kirito in ep10? man, I guess I do need to watch that episode again.

But keep in mind, you're not the avatar... so an attack that knocks the avatar out via a status debuff wouldn't affect the player... if that's what you were getting at?
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Old 2012-09-13, 10:28   Link #573
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I have a question though. If a character can be made unconscious by a non-poison/paralyzing attack (like what happened to Kirito after he solo’d the floor boss & when Asuna knocked Kirito out in this episode) while the victim’s HP still remains, wouldn’t that be an easy victory/kill for the attacker (both monsters & players)?

Lets say during A & B’s fight, if A can knock B unconscious with A’s first attack, finishing B after that would be a child’s play for A.
We can attribute what happened to Kirito after the boss fight to mental fatigue. Although the characters aren't using their real bodies, they still feel a form of "tiredness" from doing things in the game.

The second instance you brought up... Did Kirito really pass out? I assumed that it was nothing more than a convenient scene transition than him blacking out.
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Old 2012-09-13, 10:34   Link #574
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
Yes? Think that's semi-obvious. You're still the person behind the virtual avatar. If you fall asleep due to sleep deprivation, or lose consciousness for a few seconds from stress you'd absolutely be an easy kill for any roaming monster assuming you're in a dungeon (which are rather common in some MMO's).

But keep in mind, you're not the avatar... so an attack that knocks the avatar out via a status debuff wouldn't affect the player... if that's what you were getting at?
Ah, you might be right. I forgot that this is a virtual world where the players do feel tired, sleepy, or stressed. When you say it like that, even the high-level players (given the appropriate condition) can be knocked out and then finished easily then.

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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
Asuna KO'ed Kirito in ep10? man, I guess I do need to watch that episode again.
I might be wrong, but before their after-sex scene, Asuna seem to punch Kirito unconscious.

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The second instance you brought up... Did Kirito really pass out? I assumed that it was nothing more than a convenient scene transition than him blacking out.
I'm considering that too, so I'm pretty much 50-50 on this.
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Old 2012-09-13, 10:48   Link #575
miroku2192
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^I'm pretty sure that's a scene transition, not an actual "knockout"
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Old 2012-09-13, 10:59   Link #576
Adigard
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I might be wrong, but before their after-sex scene, Asuna seem to punch Kirito unconscious.
The show has taken some pains to show that no damage that can be done to player's inside towns (under standard conditions). Consider it the anime adaptor's trying to make Asuna a tsuntsun character, maybe?
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Old 2012-09-13, 11:06   Link #577
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Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
^I'm pretty sure that's a scene transition, not an actual "knockout"
I'm quite sure it's a scene transition also, while you can feel tired, stress and everything else, you can't feel pain. All you get is the " feeling " of being stabbed, punched, etc. - You don't actually feel the pain.
So I think it would be impossible to faint / be knocked out just because of a punch or something like that. Otherwise, wouldn't Kirito be " knocked out " / " fainted " because of Kuradeel's attack? - If he could get easily knocked out because of a punch, I think it would be really easy to knock out someone by stabbing them ( Since the pain would've been immense compared to a punch )
TL;DR - I think they can only faint due to stress, and things like this, otherwise, how would you handle this world if you got knocked out by being punched by a monster? You'd die right there - And that's probably why Kayaba decided not to " give them pain " and only give them " the feeling of being attacked "
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Old 2012-09-13, 11:15   Link #578
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
The show has taken some pains to show that no damage that can be done to player's inside towns (under standard conditions). Consider it the anime adaptor's trying to make Asuna a tsuntsun character, maybe?
Ah, you're right. So I guess that punch really have no effect then.
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Old 2012-09-13, 11:15   Link #579
zRichard
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Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
Also, I don't mean to imply the side stories are pointless, I argue they are misplaced.
The misplaced side story is true and it's a problem with the source material.

Luckily, anime watchers will eventually understand why this adaptation couldn't have worked in any other way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
.
Tracking Skill: Nothing suggested that Kirito didn't use it once he got on higher ground.
Regen: Explained by DPS concept.
EP2's Death: Also explained by DPS and the Heal Over Time nature of most health potion of most MMORPGs. They were at the first floor, the potion Kirito had on him must have been a low-grade potion that would not recover the player instantly as the high tier potion that Asuna used in this episode.
Sleep PK/Friend List/Durability: All of them are small game mechanics, of which I'm absolutely sure that the anime is showing a very minuscule fraction of the ones that may exist in SAO (or in your average videogame).

I think people familiar with MMORPG gameplay will have an easier time with these "no tell nor show" game-mechanics moments. I think SAO does a very good job at portraying them.

Even for the mystery arc, that I watch with no LN knowledge, I was juggling around the idea that the first victim used a skill that had an animation similar to that of a death. I wouldn't have imagined that if it weren't for my familiarity to MMORPGs mechanics.
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Old 2012-09-13, 11:37   Link #580
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Ah, you're right. So I guess that punch really have no effect then.
Always, always remember that it's a game. If you start to think them as actual people with actual bodies as opposed to the game avatars of people in comas, then you'll just confuse yourself. It's a complicated game with a lot of little details, but ultimately it comes down to HP and status effects and inventories. Numbers, flags, rules.

You're simply not going to get knocked out by a punch in a game. Perhaps it could apply some sort of "stagger" status, but even that would be negated by in-town invulnerability.
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