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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 10
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 114 53.52%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 48 22.54%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 25 11.74%
7 out of 10 : Good... 10 4.69%
6 out of 10 : Average... 7 3.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 1 0.47%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 3 1.41%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 1 0.47%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 4 1.88%
Voters: 213. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-13, 12:23   Link #581
Craxuan
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Whenever you perform an action, brain activity ensues. When Kirito was paralyzed, he was basically trying to fight back against the system programming through will power alone, and after that his arm was cut - btw, you don't feel pain in SAO, his moaning when Kuradeel stabbed him was due to pure fear, as anyone should feel - and killing Kuradeel right after, well, to be honest, I would black out if he was me, and he's just a teenager.
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Old 2012-09-13, 12:25   Link #582
Adigard
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Always, always remember that it's a game. If you start to think them as actual people with actual bodies as opposed to the game avatars of people in comas, then you'll just confuse yourself. It's a complicated game with a lot of little details, but ultimately it comes down to HP and status effects and inventories. Numbers, flags, rules.
Very very much this.

I think some of the confusion folks experience may be from forgetting that Kirito isn't a person, he's a virtual avatar of a real life unnamed person trapped in a NERVgear helmet, playing a VR MMO.

Within that framework things should make a lot more sense. MMO logic is useful, not required, but helpful for some of the mechanics that get bandied around in various episodes.
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Old 2012-09-13, 13:24   Link #583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
btw, you don't feel pain in SAO, his moaning when Kuradeel stabbed him was due to pure fear, as anyone should feel - and killing Kuradeel right after, well, to be honest, I would black out if he was me, and he's just a teenager.
Except that other characters like Godfrey writhed after each blow, so really it looks like the anime studio didn't receive the memo that you don't feel any pain in SAO.
It looks like another blooper like the axe dual wielder.
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Old 2012-09-13, 13:26   Link #584
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There's probably a sensation of getting struck that makes people flinch and such when struck, just without the pain that'd normally come with it.
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Old 2012-09-13, 13:27   Link #585
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You don't feel the pain, but I believe you do feel every blow.
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Old 2012-09-13, 13:28   Link #586
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That's not exactly convincing considering how several characters really uttered agony, instead of just being "poked". While Kirito being blown to the pillar previously could be interpretated as being startled, you surely have more pained expression and groan, than just "non painful sensation".
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Old 2012-09-13, 13:58   Link #587
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That's not exactly convincing considering how several characters really uttered agony, instead of just being "poked". While Kirito being blown to the pillar previously could be interpretated as being startled, you surely have more pained expression and groan, than just "non painful sensation".
I got the impression that Kirito was trying to not react to keep from giving Mr. Looney Tunes the satisfaction he craved.
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Old 2012-09-13, 14:12   Link #588
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That's not exactly convincing considering how several characters really uttered agony, instead of just being "poked". While Kirito being blown to the pillar previously could be interpretated as being startled, you surely have more pained expression and groan, than just "non painful sensation".
People who immerse themselves on the videogames that they play often acts as if they were in pain while taking damage or being killed, pretending agony and/or swearing. Even more if others are watching.

Now take that to a completely simulated word where your life ends at the game over screen. The level of immersion is off the charts, feeling pain would be a just bonus in that case.
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Old 2012-09-13, 15:42   Link #589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That's not exactly convincing considering how several characters really uttered agony, instead of just being "poked". While Kirito being blown to the pillar previously could be interpretated as being startled, you surely have more pained expression and groan, than just "non painful sensation".
I don't think you feel actual pain when hit by monsters, or their pain tolerance must be beyond human. In Ep.4, Kirito let those thugs attack him however they wanted, he didn't even flinch. If he could feel pain, he'd have dodged/parried those attacks.
You probably feel some uncomfortable sensation though.

If your life was literally your HP bar and you see it reducing like Godfrey, while at the same time you can't do anything about it, only people with great mental strength wouldn't utter a sound.
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Old 2012-09-13, 15:54   Link #590
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Cries of fear will sound similar to cries of pain if the fear is primal enough.
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Old 2012-09-13, 18:05   Link #591
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I dunno, if you know you're inching closer to death with each blow, I'd probably be making such noises too. :x
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Old 2012-09-13, 18:44   Link #592
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If you don't feel pain, wouldn't that mean you wouldn't feel sex either?

Sex generally isn't painful, of course, but it's based on physical sensation just like physical pain is. Kind of hard for me to see how one can work (sex) without the other (pain).


I'm not saying that the "You don't feel pain" statement is incorrect, I'm just wondering how that jives with sex existing in the game.
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Old 2012-09-13, 18:47   Link #593
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If you don't feel pain, wouldn't that mean you wouldn't feel sex either?

Sex generally isn't painful, of course, but it's based on physical sensation just like physical pain is. Kind of hard for me to see how one can work (sex) without the other (pain).


I'm not saying that the "You don't feel pain" statement is incorrect, I'm just wondering how that jives with sex existing in the game.
They might feel the stimulation because of the brain.

@On topic:

what I didn't like was they left out some important details about why Kuradeel join KoB that was explain in the LN but it was decent of how they handle the rest of the episode.
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Old 2012-09-13, 18:59   Link #594
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If you don't feel pain, wouldn't that mean you wouldn't feel sex either?

Sex generally isn't painful, of course, but it's based on physical sensation just like physical pain is. Kind of hard for me to see how one can work (sex) without the other (pain).


I'm not saying that the "You don't feel pain" statement is incorrect, I'm just wondering how that jives with sex existing in the game.
It's a video game... remember? If you felt physical pain every time you were hit by a monster you'd log out of the game long before Kayaba had an opportunity to start his 'tutorial'. Heck, the company ~behind~ SAO wouldn't even have survived the beta.

The fact that physical pain is negated, yet other feelings are not is perfectly in line with the fact that it's a video game. Which, at the core, is designed to be enjoyable and fun. Remember you aren't losing tactile sensations, our character's (most likely) can feel the sword in their hands, the ground under their feet, and while they probably feel a placeholder sensation for pain... it obviously isn't pain.

But ultimately that answer, like everything else, is addressed in the LN's, but is simply setup as one of the 'setting' pieces in the Anime.
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Old 2012-09-13, 19:11   Link #595
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I think Triple R's asking "how" not "why" which fits better in the Game Mechanics thread. But off my head, I think pain has a specific receptor in the brain. Simply don't send signals to that area and we can have no pain but still have others.
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Old 2012-09-13, 19:40   Link #596
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Pain is a separate sense from touch. Actually, humans have a lot of senses that we don't think of as senses, but become really noticeable when they stop working. It's interesting to read about cases of people who can't feel pain, etc. It's actually a big problem because they tend to accidentally chew off their own tongue and bleed to death... Luckily that's not a problem in a game.

Last edited by Clarste; 2012-09-13 at 19:52.
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Old 2012-09-13, 19:48   Link #597
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For all we know, some players did try something unusual like cutting their arms in the beginning, possibly due to frustration and/or boredom. But stopped after realising that the money needed to heal it back just isn't worth it. Just saying.

But the sensations of pain and touch together is what makes physical contact complete.
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Old 2012-09-13, 20:18   Link #598
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Too many variables really. We just don't know the requirements of using that tracking skill. OTOH, being able to stalk / track random MMO player's inside a town does sound... icky, so I'm tempted to go with Kirito's clock tower statement.
This just makes me wish we had some visual representation of skill being used, like with the dungeon map in ep4. It would have given us a better idea of how it worked. As it stands there doesn't seem to be whole lot of reason to use the skill in one instance and then not the other even though the situation is similar.

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I'm going with assgrab from the adaptor's on that one. There's nothing to suggest that boss would have a DoT effect to his attacks, although we have seen a scene with the Army boss fight where the leader was around for a bit after being 'killed'. So maybe it's consistent. I'd have to compare the two scenes to say for sure.
True, but we seen plenty of people die and it's often instantly when their HP his 0, unless it's being used again for dramatic effect.

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Originally Posted by zRichard View Post

Tracking Skill: Nothing suggested that Kirito didn't use it once he got on higher ground.
IIRC, according to the author, Kirito used a different skill to find Lizbeth which is normally used to locate Guildmates or Pets, which is pretty odd. As for the tower, nothing suggested that tracking skill was effected by terrain either, Saichi was found very quickly despite her location being more difficult to find.

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Regen: Explained by DPS concept.
I understand this myself as I have a minor MMO background, but Kirito's regeneration was healing him at crazy speeds for a pretty big chuck HP when he last showcased it. SAQ since then has acted as if he doesn't have it. At the very least Kirito shouldn't be getting knocked down to 1HP so easily. At this point I subscribe to the thought Kuradeel's paralysis probably nulled the HP regen temporally.

Quote:
EP2's Death: Also explained by DPS and the Heal Over Time nature of most health potion of most MMORPGs. They were at the first floor, the potion Kirito had on him must have been a low-grade potion that would not recover the player instantly as the high tier potion that Asuna used in this episode.
The problem is that Kirito knows this and Diabel (I think?) baffling refusing it when he could have be saved (this what anime suggested). An LN reader told me that he pretty much died near instantly in novel and Kirito never attempted to heal him at all.

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Sleep PK/Friend List/Durability: All of them are small game mechanics, of which I'm absolutely sure that the anime is showing a very minuscule fraction of the ones that may exist in SAO (or in your average videogame).
I don't know if would call Friend's List and Item Durability insignificant, but they're good examples of consistent mechanics that are in the show. Sleep PK has yet to make an appearance again so we can't compare how it's used from one event to another at the moment.

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I think people familiar with MMORPG gameplay will have an easier time with these "no tell nor show" game-mechanics moments. I think SAO does a very good job at portraying them.
In most cases I agree, but it still trips over itself when introduces certain things without much explanation even to veteran gamers.

Quote:
Even for the mystery arc, that I watch with no LN knowledge, I was juggling around the idea that the first victim used a skill that had an animation similar to that of a death. I wouldn't have imagined that if it weren't for my familiarity to MMORPGs mechanics.
Speaking of that, I remember something else that was inconsistent, Griselda's ghost.
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Old 2012-09-13, 20:45   Link #599
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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
I understand this myself as I have a minor MMO background, but Kirito's regeneration was healing him at crazy speeds for a pretty big chuck HP when he last showcased it. SAQ since then has acted as if he doesn't have it. At the very least Kirito shouldn't be getting knocked down to 1HP so easily. At this point I subscribe to the thought Kuradeel's paralysis probably nulled the HP regen temporally.
Yeah, due to the lack of exposition on how the skill works, there are countless possibilities, such as. "Battle Regen only works while your HP is over 50%". Or "Battle Regen only works while on Battle Stance", with Battle Stance requiring the player to stand properly on it's two feet.

There are many MMORPG with skills that have weird requirements like that. For example.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
The problem is that Kirito knows this and Diabel (I think?) baffling refusing it when he could have be saved (this what anime suggested).
Watched that episode with no LN knowledge, and I though that the Damage Over Time value dealt by the Boss vastly surpassed the early game potion's Heal Over Time value. I didn't really saw his refusal as something strange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
I don't know if would call Friend's List and Item Durability insignificant, but they're good examples of consistent mechanics that are in the show. Sleep PK has yet to make an appearance again so we can't compare how it's used from one event to another at the moment.
As I said, there are countless small mechanics like that, you can't make a MMORPG show that only works around a handful of them. I don't remember where the friendlist comes up first, but in the LN Asuna mentions that she knew Kirito's location thanks to him being on her friendlist. She also mentioned it in Lizbeth's episode.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Speaking of that, I remember something else that was inconsistent, Griselda's ghost.
Hahahha, leave the author some margin for his dramatic licence. BTW, did you see the PV? there's a new "ghostly" character coming up next week.
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Old 2012-09-13, 21:03   Link #600
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Speaking of that, I remember something else that was inconsistent, Griselda's ghost.

Which brings us back to the question whether death in the game really means 'death'.
It could as well mean that you are trapped until you die or someone wins the game and its just similar to Diablo's Hardcore Characters.

or if they die they get ported to Plaxe X where the rest of the players can't enter and she was somehow allowed to shade into the PC world.
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