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Old 2012-09-13, 16:23   Link #481
Fencedude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Madoka's premise (even if it was shrouded at first) is deconstructing magical girl anime. It's a dark magical girl show, designed for the modern era.
Welp. Good to know we can ignore anything you have to say on this subject.
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Last edited by Fencedude; 2012-09-13 at 16:39.
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Old 2012-09-13, 16:27   Link #482
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
You are reaching. When the PV matches the title in both cases.
No, I'm not reaching.

My point is that the title alone does not rule out this being a flashy action show, so it's perfectly understandable that some viewers would get the wrong impression from the 1st PV.


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Originally Posted by Fencedude View Post
Welp. Good to know we can ignore anything you have to say on this subject.
There's nothing I wrote about Madoka Magica that's clearly inaccurate. Madoka Magica is widely regarded (including by many knowledgeable fans of Madoka Magica) as a deconstruction of the magical girl genre.
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Old 2012-09-13, 16:34   Link #483
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, I'm not reaching.

My point is that the title alone does not rule out this being a flashy action show, so it's perfectly understandable that some viewers would get the wrong impression from the 1st PV.
And thats your problem, not the PV's problem.
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Old 2012-09-13, 16:36   Link #484
Kaisos Erranon
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Look, either way, you're ignoring that the production staff seem to WANT people to get the wrong idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Plenty of anime shows have misleading names, or names that only tell you a little bit about a show. "A Certain Magical Index" and "Shana of the Burning Eyes" don't necessarily indicate a flashy action show either.
No, but Googling a show's name will generally get you a quick blurb of information about it.
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Is "My Little Sister Can't Possibly Be This Cute!" all about incest?
Yes, actually.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
My point is that the title alone does not rule out this being a flashy action show, so it's perfectly understandable that some viewers would get the wrong impression from the 1st PV.
You don't seem to understand that "chuunibyou" has a highly negative connotation. The word is used, disparagingly, to describe (somewhat ironically in this case) the kind of people who prefer anime similar to Shana or Index.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There's nothing I wrote about Madoka Magica that's clearly inaccurate. Madoka Magica is widely regarded as a deconstruction of the magical girl genre.
Widely regarded so by trolls who want to get a rise out of people who disliked it, yes.
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Old 2012-09-13, 16:40   Link #485
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There's nothing I wrote about Madoka Magica that's clearly inaccurate. Madoka Magica is widely regarded (including by many knowledgeable fans of Madoka Magica) as a deconstruction of the magical girl genre.
Except for the part where its not a deconstruction in the slightest. Madoka's a straight up magical girl show, just with an incredibly harsh set of rules.
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Old 2012-09-13, 16:41   Link #486
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's just your opinion. Other people can quite reasonably come to a different opinion, so it's not "their own damn fault" for getting the wrong impression from the first PV for this anime.
I do see your point, though I can't agree. The over-the-top magical action scenes combined with the title, IMO, should be enough for a viewer to be able to deduce the concept.

Granted, if one doesn't understand the meaning of the title or know the word chuunibyou then it is certainly possible to misinterpret, but on the other hand I should think any such person who became that hyped at the first PV that they'd be "disappointed" when learning the real premise should have at least bothered do to the ten seconds of research needed to figure it out in the first place. So yeah, anyone being disappointed at this point only have themselves to blame.
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Old 2012-09-13, 16:43   Link #487
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I don't see any problem with the long PV. If someone goes to watch this thinking it will be a Shanaclone, good for them, nobody cares. For the rest of the audience, the PV is good enough.

And no, premise is not important. Those shows you mentioned earlier were well-received because things other than their premise.
Madoka - it turned its premise upside down in three episodes
F/Z, SAO, S;G - wish fulfilment and the female leads

There may be other reasons, but people only come into the cinema talking about the premise. They come out talking about a character, a scene, or the message conveyed in the movie.

The premise is just a vehicle and should not be taken seriously by anyone, when it's obvious that what makes fiction good at face-value are the characters and the power of the climax scenes.
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Old 2012-09-13, 16:44   Link #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Look, either way, you're ignoring that the production staff seem to WANT people to get the wrong idea.
Well, if that's the case, it seems silly to blame some people for getting the wrong idea if the production staff themselves are aiming for that.


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Yes, actually.
I can't speak to the novels, but the anime alone isn't. There's no actual incest in the Ore no Imouto anime.


Quote:

Widely regarded so by trolls who want to get a rise out of people who disliked it, yes.
There's perfectly good arguments for why Madoka Magica can be viewed as a magical girl deconstruction. Saying that something is a deconstruction certainly doesn't mean you have to like it, so why should simply saying "Madoka Magica is a magical girl deconstruction" get a rise out of people who disliked it?
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Old 2012-09-13, 16:47   Link #489
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There's perfectly good arguments for why Madoka Magica can be viewed as a magical girl deconstruction.
And even better arguments for why people who say that are full of shit.
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Old 2012-09-13, 16:49   Link #490
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Shergal View Post
The premise is just a vehicle and should not be taken seriously by anyone, when it's obvious that what makes fiction good at face-value are the characters and the power of the climax scenes.
I agree, but that said, having a strong premise is quite important, if only to attract attention and viewers/readers/what have you. Also I really don't think that 'wish fulfillment' and 'the female lead' were the reasons S;G was well-received but that obviously has nothing to do with the current discussion.
Anyway, Chuu2Koi's premise is "a boy who used to be a delusional nutjob meets a girl who is still a delusional nutjob, and she ruins his peaceful normal life via her delusional nutjobbery." Nothing more than that.
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Well, if that's the case, it seems silly to blame some people for getting the wrong idea if the production staff themselves are aiming for that.
But a few minutes poking around on Google will get you information about the true nature of the production. Even going through this very thread will get you said information.
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Old 2012-09-13, 16:56   Link #491
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Anyway, Chuu2Koi's premise is "a boy who used to be a delusional nutjob meets a girl who is still a delusional nutjob, and she ruins his peaceful normal life via her delusional nutjobbery." Nothing more than that.
Thats probably the best description of the premise I've seen yet.
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Old 2012-09-13, 16:56   Link #492
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Originally Posted by Goggen View Post
I do see your point, though I can't agree. The over-the-top magical action scenes combined with the title, IMO, should be enough for a viewer to be able to deduce the concept.
People are only human. Not everybody is going to notice the connection. Is that really something to attack a person over?


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Originally Posted by Fencedude View Post
Except for the part where its not a deconstruction in the slightest.
Sure it is. It's deconstructive because of those "incredibly harsh set of rules", and what they ultimately mean for a magical girl in the PMMM word (and also for what they mean for the "magical girl familiar" in the PMMM world).

PMMM isn't just grimdark in a straight-up blood and gore way. It's very conceptually dark, as it turns the magical girl role completely on its head.

I'd say more, but then we'd be getting into serious spoilers for another anime, and drag this thread too off-topic. If you want to discuss this further, then please bring it to PMs.
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Old 2012-09-13, 17:00   Link #493
Fencedude
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Sure it is. It's deconstructive because of those "incredibly harsh set of rules", and what they ultimately mean for a magical girl in the PMMM word (and also for what they mean for the "magical girl familiar" in the PMMM world).

PMMM isn't just grimdark in a straight-up blood and gore way. It's very conceptually dark, as it turns the magical girl role completely on its head.

I'd say more, but then we'd be getting into serious spoilers for another anime, and drag this thread too off-topic. If you want to discuss this further, then please bring it to PMs.
You could argue that its an inversion, but it is not a deconstruction in an actual sense of the term, unless you go by the TVTropes "definition", which is not at all what deconstruction actually means.

Sure, the show takes the standard Magical Girl setup and twists the hell out of it, but ultimately it affirms the core tenets of the genre. Thats the entire point of the show!
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Old 2012-09-13, 17:03   Link #494
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
People are only human. Not everybody is going to notice the connection. Is that really something to attack a person over?
True, but then not making that connection is on them, not on the PV, hence "their own damn fault". But no, it's not something to attack a person over, and I don't really feel that I did.
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Old 2012-09-13, 17:05   Link #495
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The people that can't see the first PV as the parody it really is are just stupid.

And no, Kyoani shouldn't aim to please the stupid in every single little thing there is. I appreciate when a show assumes its audience is intelligent and doesn't spoonfed itself; in the same vein, the trailer is made so that anyone with two eyes can see that it is not serious. If someone doesn't see it, it's their own fault, not the studio's.

There's the argument about the sales viewpoint, but whether they want to sell or not is only up to the producers and shouldn't modify the enjoyment of what they produce.
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Old 2012-09-13, 17:08   Link #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shergal View Post
And no, premise is not important.
The premise is very important.

Each of the shows I mentioned were well-received, and exceptionally popular, in large part because of their appealing premises.

Quote:
Madoka - it turned its premise upside down in three episodes
No it didn't. Its premise was made clear with the third episode.

Quote:
F/Z, SAO, S;G - wish fulfilment and the female leads
Loads of anime have wish fulfillment and appealing female leads. That doesn't separate any anime from the rest of the pack.

Much of what separates F/Z, SAO, and S;G from the rest of the pack is their excellent premises.

Quote:
There may be other reasons, but people only come into the cinema talking about the premise. They come out talking about a character, a scene, or the message conveyed in the movie.
And the premise often shapes characters, shapes scenes, and shapes the message conveyed in the movie.

Do you think Okabe Rintaro's character would be as memorable if he was a character in a lighthearted comedy without any serious drama or sci-fi? Part of what makes Okabe Rintaro great is that S;G's premise allows for multiple sides of his character to be fully explored.

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The premise is just a vehicle and should not be taken seriously by anyone,
I totally disagree. The premise should be taken seriously. Some shows do in fact live up to their premises.


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Originally Posted by Fencedude View Post
You could argue that its an inversion, but it is not a deconstruction in an actual sense of the term, unless you go by the TVTropes "definition", which is not at all what deconstruction actually means.
Word meanings can and do change over time. When they do, people tend to go with the more recent meaning.

Quote:

Sure, the show takes the standard Magical Girl setup and twists the hell out of it, but ultimately it affirms the core tenets of the genre. Thats the entire point of the show!
Sure. I myself once argued that Madoka Magica was both a deconstruction and a reconstruction rolled into one, because some of the core tenets of the genre are in fact upheld.


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Originally Posted by Goggen View Post
True, but then not making that connection is on them, not on the PV, hence "their own damn fault".
If Kaisos is right, and if the PV is intentionally misleading, then that's on the PV at least as much as it is on the people who are mislead by it.
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Old 2012-09-13, 17:31   Link #497
Warm Mist
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I'm not sure if you know the accepted definition of "premise".

Madoka's premise was "A girl is turned magical by a furfag"
S;G's premise is "Some guys invent a time machine in their spare time and find out about a conspiracy"
F/Z is something along the lines of "There is a tournament held every X years where mages fight. See the fight of two particular guys"

That alone is not important, and does not change anything by itself. The shows need to have endearing or interesting characters, a good pace, world-building of some sort, strong climatic scenes, a coherent narrative or if it lacks coherency, an overwhelmingly emotional narrative. There are some more arcane ways a show can be well regarded popularly or critically, but that's the gist of it.

In my case, I think what separates similar shows is the technical execution- that is, the direction, animation, and script nuances. The premise, plot outline or underlying message are the least relevant factors when deciding the perceived quality or enjoyment of a show.

This is why I'm somewhat looking forward to this show; Kyoani has shown that they can take simple, irrelevant premises and make something ten times better out of it. Ishihara is also creative with humour, and the experience of Nichijou probably served to improve his comedic timing (I hope). And most of all, the studio shines when it comes to doing emotional scenes, and if this show is going to have an "end" of sorts, I expect some climax to occur.

Just because it has a chuuni heroine and is a romantic comedy isn't reason enough to get someone bashing or praising this, hence the premise is unimportant.
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Old 2012-09-13, 17:50   Link #498
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I can't help thinking of "Another" every time I see that damn eyepatch...
Personally, I think of Chihiro in ef:melodies. Since that's a good memory for me, I have another reason to feel positive about this show -- besides KyoAni, Director Ishihara, writer Hanada Jukki, the plot summary, and the overall character design.

What are earlier examples of the eyepatch meme? I think of it as a classic moe meme: damaged girl needs protection. Are there other aspects?

EDIT: This thread is really roaring. By the time I got around to posting, the post I'm replying to was already most of a page away.
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Old 2012-09-13, 18:20   Link #499
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There is an argument to be made that if a PV is intentionally misleading people then that isn't justified necessarily since a PV is supposed to clue in its audience on what the actual content is.

However, I thought the PV was actually very accurate about its content and I'm confused how so many people got confused by the preview anyways. When I first watched it I got the distinct impression that the characters were engaging in crazy delusional fantasies, and that is without having read the synopsis. Just look how theatrical the characters are at some points where they're doing poses and the like. It's either a fantasy or the cheesiest action show ever . Furthermore there's a distinct comedic feel to it throughout the PV.

Anyways the only people in the West who are going to be watching these previews are people who are going out of their way to see what's coming out in Japan ahead of time. Seeing as we also have a synopsis, which isn't hard to find at all, there shouldn't be an excuse of "time" used here. Most otaku in general in Japan do their research as well. The casuals? I doubt they're going to even be seeing the previews and at best might just filter in when the show finally airs.
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Old 2012-09-13, 18:50   Link #500
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It's pretty clear to me that the "misleading" PV, as well as the chuuni-character descriptions, are parts of the joke. If they really intend to mislead people, Ishihara himself won't say out loud in the interview like that. Not to mention, as others pointed out, that the title is very clear about it. You're supposed to watch the action scene and laugh it off for how out of place it is. I think it's like Mikuru Episode 00. You're not suppose to watch it and expect a silly romantic comedy for the rest of the show. It's just the stuff having fun in an elaborate joke.
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