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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 47
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 5 16.67%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 5 16.67%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 5 16.67%
7 out of 10: Good... 8 26.67%
6 out of 10: Average... 5 16.67%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 0 0%
4 out of 10: Poor... 0 0%
3 out of 10: Bad... 1 3.33%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 1 3.33%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-13, 14:18   Link #121
Dengar
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
Ezelcant doesn't actually say it out right but he does imply that the Vagans are the superior race compared to the Earthnoids when he says that the Earthnoids don't deserve to live on Earth whereas the Vagans do, especially considering that they started to name themselves "Vagan" as an attempt to differentiate themselves from people born and lives on Earth. Also the fact that the Vagans call people living on Earth "Earthnoids" is another hint which they consider themselves to be a different race altogether because the term is clearly projecting a vibe of alien-ness in it.

Put the two together the implication is pretty clear - the propaganda is clearly that Vagans are superior to the Earthnoids and thus have the right to kill and take over their land to claim it as their own and shape it in a way that is superior that how the Earthnoids are currently treating it, there's just loads and loads of self-arrogance there. And when arrogance is involved then clearly a thinking of superiority is there too.
I still don't see anywhere where they view themselves as being superior. They just want to get out of that hellhole. They just hate the Earthers a lot for putting them in there and being blissfully ignorant about it. That's not a "we are far superior" thing. That's more like "I hate you so much I want to kill you" thing.
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Old 2012-09-13, 14:56   Link #122
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What is Earthers? Anyone who is born in earth? That mean Flit is not Earthers...
(The second they call themselves Vegan instead of Earthers they approved that they have superior complex...)
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Old 2012-09-13, 15:04   Link #123
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It means they severed themselves from earth's Nationality. It's pretty much the same when the Americans severed themselves from England. It's no like they thought themselves 'superior' to the English.

(almost) everyone in the earth sphere falls under the same government. To refer to them collectively as "Earthers" (those from earth or the earth sphere) isn't a stretch, nor is it necessarily an insult.
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Old 2012-09-13, 15:10   Link #124
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Yeah, and besides they have to call themselves somehow anyway, after all they did form a new nation. And name "Vagan" doesn't even reflect any superiority, it's just a fancy word.
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Old 2012-09-13, 19:40   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I still don't see anywhere where they view themselves as being superior. They just want to get out of that hellhole. They just hate the Earthers a lot for putting them in there and being blissfully ignorant about it. That's not a "we are far superior" thing. That's more like "I hate you so much I want to kill you" thing.
Vegan pilots that does exposed always say "How can a mere Earther beat me".

Especially when it comes to Asemu. "You told me he's not an X-Rounder!"


Quote:
Originally Posted by overloard
Zeheart in the gen 2 repeatedly telling Asemu to quit military and go live normal life, which implies that at least in his opinion there is a possibility of normal life for Earthers after vagan's victory.
Not really Zeheart doesn't want Asemu in the battlefield as he hesitates between his Loyalty to Ezelcant's cause and the Trust made as friends with Asemu. It was forming on his mind that Earther's are not that bad and living as one isn't.

That is why is going you cant beat me go back to being a civvie to Asemu.

He chose the Ezelcant over Asemu. Hence trying to kill Asemu personally when he said No.

Then Asemu did beat him realizing underestimating Asemu was arrogance on his part.

Now Zeheart obsesses over Asemu as he is a threat to Project Eden.
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Old 2012-09-13, 20:21   Link #126
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Now Zeheart obsesses over Asemu as he is a threat to Project Eden.
not only is he a threat, Asemu is the biggest threat out of the 3 Asunos, his ideology of trying not to escalate the war, and protecting those he cares for (which is a direct contradiction of forced selection) is a bigger threat than what Kio and Flit believe in.
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Old 2012-09-14, 00:21   Link #127
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It means they severed themselves from earth's Nationality. It's pretty much the same when the Americans severed themselves from England. It's no like they thought themselves 'superior' to the English.
Seriously? You could've fooled me with all those casual bickering between the two countries. It's the same for the Vagans and Earth - except it's not causal but violent and fatal.

Plus you forget that not only the Vagans severed themselves from Earth, they are now coming back with the claim that Earthnoids don't deserve to have a claim on Earth, that kind of thinking can only be arise from a thought of superiority. A point to remember is that the Vagans aren't fighting a war of independence or repression - they are *invaders*! Naturally invaders thinks themselves superior that's why they invade in the first place!

Put it this way - if America declares an invasion war on England today and says the Queen and Prime Minister don't deserve to be the head of the England and that Americans should rule over England, what do you think underlies the reasoning except the feeling of superiority? Because when you decide that you know better and can rule better than the other party and does it by brute force with no regards for anything what else can there be except thinking that you are superior in every way?
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Last edited by houkoholic; 2012-09-14 at 00:32.
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Old 2012-09-14, 01:16   Link #128
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Plus you forget that not only the Vagans severed themselves from Earth, they are now coming back with the claim that Earthnoids don't deserve to have a claim on Earth, that kind of thinking can only be arise from a thought of superiority. A point to remember is that the Vagans aren't fighting a war of independence or repression - they are *invaders*! Naturally invaders thinks themselves superior that's why they invade in the first place!
It's because earthers are cruel and/or ignorant. Being stronger/smarter has nothing to do with it.
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Old 2012-09-14, 01:46   Link #129
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Not really Zeheart doesn't want Asemu in the battlefield as he hesitates between his Loyalty to Ezelcant's cause and the Trust made as friends with Asemu. It was forming on his mind that Earther's are not that bad and living as one isn't.

That is why is going you cant beat me go back to being a civvie to Asemu.

He chose the Ezelcant over Asemu. Hence trying to kill Asemu personally when he said No.

Then Asemu did beat him realizing underestimating Asemu was arrogance on his part.

Now Zeheart obsesses over Asemu as he is a threat to Project Eden.
At that time he clearly didn't want any harm come to Asemu, and it makes zero sense for him to try talk his friend out of the battlefield if he knew that in the couple of months he is gonna be exterminated along with the rest of the population anyway.

And really, obsessed? Even during their recent battle against Sid Zeheart still was telling Asemu to move aside and don't interfere instead of outright trying to kill him.
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Old 2012-09-14, 03:27   Link #130
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At that time he clearly didn't want any harm come to Asemu, and it makes zero sense for him to try talk his friend out of the battlefield if he knew that in the couple of months he is gonna be exterminated along with the rest of the population anyway.

And really, obsessed? Even during their recent battle against Sid Zeheart still was telling Asemu to move aside and don't interfere instead of outright trying to kill him.
You are forgetting Zeheart tried to personally kill Asemu after he can't convince him to not be in the battlefield.

Zeheart was having a crisis of conscience then. As seen recently he will throw away his humanity for Ezelcant.

Not to mention Aemu lived on a Colony not Earth itself. Extermination of Earthers takes priority over extermination of colonists. At best they would be slaves.

The colony nations are independent sovereign states with the Federation as the only super power left.

Zeheart payed special attention to Asemu during the Moon base attack. Taking him one on one over the others.

Asemu has always been the source of Zeheart's doubts. As such he tries to kill him lest his conscience take over.
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Old 2012-09-14, 03:38   Link #131
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Zeheart pretty clearly implied that if Asemu and Romary stayed out of the way, they'd be alright. Whether that meant they weren't going to kill all the earthers or just that Zeheart could personally make sure that at least the two of them were alright wasn't clear.

Zeheart was happy when Asemu became Captain Ash as it meant he'd be out of his way, and told him he should have stayed hidden when he started fighting him again. This might also explain why Zeheart took to the Eden plan so easily as it would mean that those "worthy" could be earth or Vegan and he could be with his friends again.

However Zeheart will kill Asemu if it came down to it. Loyalty to Vegan's is first. He'd just really like it if his buddy would let him do this thing and then they can hang out afterwards. So in Zehearts twisted mind its win/win. Either he kills Asemu and leads the Vegan to Eden, or Asemu doesn't interfere and he leads the Vegan to Eden, and Asemu and Romary can come too. He'd be happy with either.

Asemu however won't stand for a decisive Vegan victory, or the Eden plan, and thus it likely won't end well for Zeheart.
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Old 2012-09-14, 03:46   Link #132
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It's because earthers are cruel and/or ignorant. Being stronger/smarter has nothing to do with it.
When you consider your opponents to be cruel and/or ignorant that means you deem yourself to be less cruel/not ignorant - ie you think you are BETTER than your opponent and won't be doing what they do, how is that not thinking yourself to be superior?
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Old 2012-09-14, 08:11   Link #133
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You are forgetting Zeheart tried to personally kill Asemu after he can't convince him to not be in the battlefield.

Zeheart was having a crisis of conscience then. As seen recently he will throw away his humanity for Ezelcant.

Not to mention Aemu lived on a Colony not Earth itself. Extermination of Earthers takes priority over extermination of colonists. At best they would be slaves.

The colony nations are independent sovereign states with the Federation as the only super power left.

Zeheart payed special attention to Asemu during the Moon base attack. Taking him one on one over the others.

Asemu has always been the source of Zeheart's doubts. As such he tries to kill him lest his conscience take over.
Yes, Zeheart set out to defeat and kill Asemu if need be, but he was very reluctant to do so. Not that it means a lot. Many times he said everything is over between them but always ended up going back to being friends again.

But anyway, it doesn't matter. My point is that back in the gen 2 Zeheart genuinely believed that if Asemu quits military he will be able to live normal life, which suggests that in his opinion vagans wasn't going to exterminate Earth population or turn them into slaves. Unless you mean he didn't care what happens to Asemu as long as he don't have to kill him personally because it would nag at his conscience, but i don't know, doesn't seem like something Zeheart would do.

Also, can't remember anything suggesting Vagans distinguish colonists and Earth population in any way.


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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Zeheart pretty clearly implied that if Asemu and Romary stayed out of the way, they'd be alright. Whether that meant they weren't going to kill all the earthers or just that Zeheart could personally make sure that at least the two of them were alright wasn't clear.

Zeheart was happy when Asemu became Captain Ash as it meant he'd be out of his way, and told him he should have stayed hidden when he started fighting him again. This might also explain why Zeheart took to the Eden plan so easily as it would mean that those "worthy" could be earth or Vegan and he could be with his friends again.

However Zeheart will kill Asemu if it came down to it. Loyalty to Vegan's is first. He'd just really like it if his buddy would let him do this thing and then they can hang out afterwards. So in Zehearts twisted mind its win/win. Either he kills Asemu and leads the Vegan to Eden, or Asemu doesn't interfere and he leads the Vegan to Eden, and Asemu and Romary can come too. He'd be happy with either.

Asemu however won't stand for a decisive Vegan victory, or the Eden plan, and thus it likely won't end well for Zeheart.
Yeah, Zeheart trying personally protect Asemu and Romary regardless of what happes to the rest of Earthers looks plausible as well, it's something that crossed my mind too. But if it was the case it would made more sense for Zeheart to capture and secure them from the begging, after all he had plenty opportunities. Because if the Federation army was defeated and Vagans started genociding population it would be pretty hard to find and protect them among the chaos. And even if he did, how would he expect them to live normal live after this?

Last edited by overloard; 2012-09-14 at 08:21.
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Old 2012-09-14, 11:03   Link #134
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
When you consider your opponents to be cruel and/or ignorant that means you deem yourself to be less cruel/not ignorant - ie you think you are BETTER than your opponent and won't be doing what they do, how is that not thinking yourself to be superior?
I'm guessing we have differing views of what constitutes 'superior' then. To me it means better, faster, stronger, etc.
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Old 2012-09-14, 17:23   Link #135
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I'm guessing we have differing views of what constitutes 'superior' then. To me it means better, faster, stronger, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_complex
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Superiority complex is a psychological defense mechanism in which a person's feelings of superiority counter or conceal his or her feelings of inferiority.[1] The term was coined by Alfred Adler (February 7, 1870 May 28, 1937), as part of his School of Individual psychology. It was introduced in his series of books, including "Understanding Human Nature" and "Social Interest".
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"The superiority complex is one of the ways which a person with an inferiority complex may use as a method of escape from her or his difficulties. She or he assumes that she or he is superior when she or he is not, and this false success compensates her or him for the state of inferiority which she or he cannot bear. The normal person does not have a superiority complex, she or he does not even have a sense of superiority. She or he has the striving to be superior in the sense that we all have ambition to be successful; but so long as this striving is expressed in work it does not lead to false valuations, which are at the root of mental disease."[4]
Vegan's indoctrinated superiority complex was easily molded from their own feelings of inadequacies.
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Old 2012-09-14, 20:42   Link #136
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stuff
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Originally Posted by from the same page
Those exhibiting the superiority complex have a self-image of supremacy. Those with superiority complexes may garner a negative image in those around them, as they are not concerned with the opinions of others about themselves. This is responsible for the paradox in which those with an inferiority complex are the ones who present themselves in the best light possible; while those with a superiority complex may not attempt to make themselves look good. This may give off an image that others may consider inferior. This is responsible for the misconception that those with an inferiority complex are meek and mild, but the complex is not defined by the behavior of the individual but by the self-image of the individual. Not that a person with a superiority complex will not express their superiority to others, only that they do not feel the need to do so.
That being said, psychology is a very complicated thing. This "superior race" argument doesn't even apply to the article in question.
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Old 2012-09-14, 23:51   Link #137
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When you consider your opponents to be cruel and/or ignorant that means you deem yourself to be less cruel/not ignorant - ie you think you are BETTER than your opponent and won't be doing what they do, how is that not thinking yourself to be superior?
nice straw man.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being morally superior to your enemy if they violate the rules of warfare, killing prisoners, feigning surrender, targetting Red Cross/Crescent personnel, etc.
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Old 2012-09-15, 02:02   Link #138
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That being said, psychology is a very complicated thing. This "superior race" argument doesn't even apply to the article in question.
That's one modern interpretation. The Vegan's behavior fits the classic definition of Superiority Complex.

Their ancestors failed in the terraforming project. They live in poor conditions while Earth Sphere is somewhat prosperous in their opinion. There is still a rich and poor gap there but in their eyes all Earth spheroids are lucky. Then there comes the envy and resentment. In their pride they don't ask for charity but instead steal what they think is rightfully theirs.

As seen with Decil, Magicians 8, Zanald even Zeheart to an extent they can't accept being bettered in piloting. They have insecurities of not winning.

Vegan leader Ezelcant came to his Social Darwinist philosophy because of his own inadequacy to save his son. He convinced the Vegan population through propaganda that they are the superior race thus deserving Eden. (All the while pruning both Vegans and Earth Spheroids with his quack understanding of evolution.)
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Old 2012-09-15, 02:20   Link #139
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I'm guessing we have differing views of what constitutes 'superior' then. To me it means better, faster, stronger, etc.
You just have too narrow of a definition of superiority then - superiority is simply "better than". There's nothing wrong with being morally superior as there are many case where such positions can be rightfully justified (for example most rational people would consider themselves morally superior to others who discriminate via sex or race, which today would be a perfectly justifiable morally superior stance to take). In history a lot of people have wage wars (and some case led to horrible horrible ethnic cleaning) on what they perceive as "savages" with this exact reason (such as during the colonial times). Rightfully or wrongly, the Vagan is using a superiority argument to do just that as you yourself have pointed out - they look at the Earthnoids as a sort of "savages" while they, the Vagans, are the enlighten (thus morally superior) ones.

Also the Vagan military consider themselves to be more physically powerful as ReddyRedWolf pointed out, and again invaders don't usually invade when they think of themselves as physically weaker than those they are attacking.

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nice straw man.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being morally superior to your enemy if they violate the rules of warfare, killing prisoners, feigning surrender, targetting Red Cross/Crescent personnel, etc.
What straw man? Do you even know what straw man means, Revolutionist? The argument here is that the Vagans did view themselves as a superior race thus wage war. Is morally superior not a form of superiority? Them viewing the Earthnoid as cruel/ignorant is prove that they are using their moral superiority as a different race to Earthnoids to justification their cause to wage war against them.

If anything you should be directing your argument towards Denger, as he's the one that is thinking that moral superiority doesn't constitute as a form of "superiority". Denger pointed out that the Vagans look at Earthnoids as being cruel/ignorant, the quote by me you high lighted was my rhetorical question to how that is not a form of one considering themselves as superior.
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Last edited by houkoholic; 2012-09-15 at 02:36.
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Old 2012-09-15, 05:02   Link #140
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They didn't wage war because they were superior, they waged war because they wanted to live.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
classic definition of Superiority Complex.
....Thank you, Doctor Sigmund Freud. Giving stuff a label doesn't make you a good psychologist. On the contrary.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
He convinced the Vegan population through propaganda that they are the superior race thus deserving Eden. (All the while pruning both Vegans and Earth Spheroids with his quack understanding of evolution.)
Show me an exact quote where he refers to them as "The Superior Race".
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