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Old 2012-09-14, 00:26   Link #10481
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Didn't Nishio just finish telling us that Ajimu is all-powerful?

Yea, I'm sure the narrator said that. And I'm sure Zenkichi wasn't the one narrating this time, since he can say falliable things.

C'mon. This manga has no rules.
Not really sure what you're trying to say here.
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Old 2012-09-14, 00:33   Link #10482
Sol Falling
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lol. Kumagawa's explanation of Shiranui's feelings being with Zen only because of the "whole school" is obviously bullshit. The real implied reason obviously is that she's in love with him. Just take Shiranui's violent reaction to some random guy saying Zenkichi was just a nobody/support character a couple chapters back. She clearly hasn't got (and doesn't even want, probably) a genuine grasp over her emotions.

Now, why would Kumagawa lie like that? Maybe 'cause he's just minus like that. lol, or maybe it's because, as a Minus, he understands Shiranui and decided to use some tact in discussing Shiranui's feelings.

If you ask me, Kumagawa does possess much more of the classic appeal and interestingness of Nishio's characters. Nishio's protags generally aren't vanilla, straight-laced, normal chumps like Zenkichi. They're usually a bit more broken. But hey, Nishio's obviously got some sort of plan behind this setup and characterization.

(For the record, everybody did notice Kumagawa's feelings for Medaka being alluded to in this chapter again, right? When Shiranui noted why Kumagawa disliked Zenkichi. Even if I don't get my preferred ending, this dynamic is obviously gonna be developed going forward as a theme.)

Also, the new darkness/devil (he's got a lot of the classic Japanese/buddhist Asura iconography) character is fucking awesome. As a comparison to another element introduced recently, I already like him more than Kurokami Kajiki. If you guys think about it, the theme of some sort of rampaging, unstoppable darkness lurking in the back/depths of this story has been sitting around since forever, hasn't it? To the extent that I was thinking it might be possible that that would be the next major plotline, after the Not Equals arc, back when everybody was panicking about the manga ending. I'm gonna bet right now that this Iihiko guy has something to do with the "inconceivable darkness" deep inside Medaka. The potential/idea of a fight between them, and Medaka revisiting that state, is fucking awesome.
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Fall:
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Old 2012-09-14, 00:43   Link #10483
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
But hey, Nishio's obviously got some sort of plan behind this setup and characterization.
Where is it? Please, explain what this plan is and when it's going to rear its head. I don't see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Also, the new darkness/devil (he's got a lot of the classic Japanese/buddhist Asura iconography) character is fucking awesome.
It is not. It is, instead, the single worst idea Nisio has ever had in his entire career as a writer, ever.
I will explain why.
This is because when you create a character who is defined as being unbeatable, unstoppable, invincible, and immortal, you cannot create a character who is a credible threat for her without them also being unbeatable, unstoppable, invincible, and immortal, a matchup that can only result in a tie.
Instead, Ajimu seems convinced that this devil-creature is going to completely flatten her, and that is amazingly stupid.
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Last edited by Kaisos Erranon; 2012-09-14 at 18:38.
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Old 2012-09-14, 01:05   Link #10484
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Where is it? Please, explain what this plan is and when it's going to rear its head. I don't see it.
Zenkichi's character (and Kumagawa's, and Medaka's for that matter) obviously is going to be some sort of statement about human ability. About how to live and relate to others even despite such total variations in talent/success/seemingly 'destined' happiness. We won't know until the end what that statement is, and it may or may not involve Zenkichi winning his lifelong dream of bagging Medaka. Regardless, the narrative design is clearly intentional.

Quote:
It is not. It is, instead, the single worst idea Nisio has ever had in his entire career as a writer, ever.
I will explain why.
This is because when you create a character who is defined as being unbeatable, unstoppable, invincible, and immortal, you cannot create a character who is a credible threat for her without them also being unbeatable, unstoppable, invincible, and immortal, a matchup that can only result in a tie.
Instead, Ajimu seems convinced that this devil-creature is going to completlely flatten her, and that is AMAZINGLY,
AMAZINGLY, AMAZINGLY, AMAZINGLY, AMAZINGLY, AMAZINGLY, AMAZINGLY, AMAZINGLY, AMAZINGLY, AMAZINGLY, AMAZINGLY, AMAZINGLY,
STUPID.
Haha, calm down from the emotional reaction and think about it for a moment. Is it really impossible to rationalize? Do you really think Nishio will lack a good explanation? First of all, Ajimu has never really been portrayed as an "unstoppable force" so much as a "transcendental existence". She is "above" the conflicts of the world, not really chaotically/forcefully interacting and imposing her will upon it. Ajimu's sense of "all-powerfulness" arises from her natural tendency/ability to overcome "impossibilities", and I'm sure in many ways that this guy, as a supposed "impossibility", will more or less be the same (i.e. something Ajimu will become able to overcome naturally). What Ajimu doesn't have, however, is the sheer direct sense of control/connection to the world to probably stop this guy from stomping all over Medaka/Kumagawa/Zenkichi in the sheer present moment. If given some time, I presume Anshin'in could create a skill which would be able to contain Iihiko more effectively. Simply because he is an impossibility beyond what she has encountered before, however, it seems perfectly believable that she isn't able to just shut him down immediately.

Remember that while Ajimu seems to have perfect command and knowledge over the Medaka Box universe, she nonetheless was never the one who created it. The Medaka Box world was created, and then Ajimu encountered it, searched for impossibilities, and gained mastery over it. Basically, it's very likely that this rampaging Iihiko guy who has been implied to be somewhere on the same level as the Not Equals is intricately connected to the actual creation of the Medaka Box universe--that unusual/extraordinary force which also gives rise to such 'inexplicable' occurrences as those original Abnormal and Minus phenomenons. It is perfectly reasonable that an existence on this level would be able to challenge Ajimu/the Shiranuis/the Not Equals, if not completely dominate them.

For the record, I'm going to bet now that this guy (Iihiko) is actually the person whom Hanten emerged to be the "shadow"/"double" of.
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Fall:
Sora no Method 20/5 :: Karen Senki 8/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Best adorable shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-09-14 at 01:22.
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Old 2012-09-14, 01:08   Link #10485
orangejuicetang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
@orangejuicetang What do you mean exactly(in regards to the protagonists of the other series)?
Well, in Zaregoto, the protaganist is a self-admitted 'damaged goods', 'defective product', 'loser', 'babbler of nonsense', etc. Hard to describe, but like, super cynical, anti-social, that type of person? Similar with Araragi from Monogatari, who's sort of a weird anti-social person with no friends prior to the events of the novel.

In other words, they're both sort of 'losers'. And Kumagawa is like the embodiment of all that, in a way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Well, he is getting his own novel isn't he? That's gotta count for something.
Tell me more
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Old 2012-09-14, 01:23   Link #10486
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
About how to live and relate to others even despite such total variations in talent/success/seemingly 'destined' happiness.
We kind of already dealt with quite a lot of that. I personally think that Zenkichi and Medaka have been brought as far as they can as characters, believably.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Regardless, the narrative design is clearly intentional.
With how haphazardly everything has been thrown together, especially recently? Nope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
*everything else*
No. You are trying to rationalize stupidity and inconsistency.
Remember this?
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
This is only a tiny fraction of her overall power. The idea that some random big demon guy living in a village could pose a threat to something like this is completely ludicrous. You can't possibly ask me to take it anywhere near seriously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Basically, it's very likely that this rampaging Iihiko guy who has been implied to be somewhere on the same level as the Not Equals
That was a translation error, it was referring to Hanten.
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Old 2012-09-14, 01:44   Link #10487
Sol Falling
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Here's a link to another work containing one of Nishio's broken/anti-social/'failure' protagonists. Chapter one of Shin Honkaku Mahou Shoujo Risuka, translated for an edition of the Faust compilation magazine (it's been around for a while now, and extremely unlikely that we'll ever get any more translation of this series, at least from this source, so don't expect more). I found it pretty classically Nishio, my only disappointment being with the style of the illustrations and the fact that the MC was a guy, squashing the potential for any yuri I was initially hoping for. (Mahou shoujo? Shit, that should always == yuri, imho (lol).)

http://www.mediafire.com/?zg63zxik1b6bmbz



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
No. You are trying to rationalize stupidity and inconsistency.
Remember this?
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
This is only a tiny fraction of her overall power. The idea that some random big demon guy living in a village could pose a threat to something like this is completely ludicrous. You can't possibly ask me to take it anywhere near seriously.
lol. I don't really care if you don't take my word for it, as we can simply wait for the inevitable explanation Nishio will provide (probably next week). The only key point really is to understand that at this point Nishio is basically establishing Medaka Box's cosmology; with the Shiranui's (the "menders") on one side, with established Not Equal status and the Kurokami's (or some other deep darkness threatening the world) on the other. They are (I predict) the core factors defining basically everything about the Medaka Box universe from it's creation, to it's continuation, and everything about Abnormalities and Minuses.

Quote:
That was a translation error, it was referring to Hanten.
Yes, I wasn't saying Iihiko was a Not Equal. Not Equals are a certain category, associated at least in part with the Shiranuis. What I'm saying is that Iihiko is part of the core secret of the Kurokami's (or perhaps even deeper than that, as the pure originating source of the darkness inside them), which is an opposite force on the same level of the Not Equals (i.e. maybe not masters/protectors/rulers over the universe, but perhaps its actual creators).
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall:
Sora no Method 20/5 :: Karen Senki 8/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Best adorable shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-09-14 at 02:28. Reason: double post
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Old 2012-09-14, 01:54   Link #10488
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol. I don't really care if you don't take my word for it, as we can simply wait for the inevitable explanation Nishio will provide (probably next week).
I don't think it will be explained, but you're missing the point.
Last week, the narration claimed that Ajimu was all-powerful, and we've seen plenty of evidence of that, and yet, here she is, about to have the shit kicked out of her by something that just popped out of nowhere.
That's Dragonball-tier retarded, and I don't care how you spin it.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Not Equals are a certain category, associated at least in part with the Shiranuis. What I'm saying is that Iihiko is part of the core secret of the Kurokami's (or perhaps even deeper than that, as the pure originating source of the darkness inside them), which is an opposite force on the same level of the Not Equals (i.e. maybe not masters/protectors/rulers over the universe, but perhaps its actual creators).
Are you seriously going to claim that this Iihiko is God? Seriously?
If gods are the new opponents then there's basically no point in most of the characters anyone cares about existing anymore, you know? That would be terrible. And furthermore, that would still not be able to faze Ajimu, she has a skill that lets her become God.
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Old 2012-09-14, 02:10   Link #10489
Westlo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
I think there's really no doubt about it anymore. Zenkichi never was the main character, even after and during the Not-Equal arc, when we were lead to believe he was the main-character all along/would be. That kinda cheapens Nishio's supposed deconstruction of Mary Sues by, well, completely.
Here's the thing, only Zen fans believed it. It was a case of wishful thinking more than anything else. I mean c'mon son, you don't see people reading the latest Monogatari novel and going "Oh Kaiki is the main character!!" (Just an example)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
So Kumagawa will always "lose", Zenkichi will always be the support, Ajimu will never fail....
There's been plenty of times in the manga and events out of it that Kumagawa didn't lose in a manner that requires " ".

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
On a less joking manner though, it's something I've been thinking about recently, but I've suddenly felt/realized that Kumagawa's char concept is closer to Nios's other 'protagonists' (like from Zaregoto or Bakemonogatari) then Zen. At least in my opinion.
I've always felt that way, and mentioned it several times in this thread. Zen really isn't a "Nisio" MC imo, Kumagawa was always closer to that feel, probably why I prefer him.
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Old 2012-09-14, 02:15   Link #10490
hyl
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Whatever the heck ever happened to Zenkichi's devil style ability? I thought it was meant to nullify any kind of coincidences surrounding him.
Looking back at the jet black wedding and now, lot's of things seems rather too coincidental to me.
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Old 2012-09-14, 02:15   Link #10491
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Zenkichi got the main focus of the latter half of that arc in a way that even Kumagawa never got in his own. I don't think it was unreasonable, at the time, to think that he had become the main character.
Hell, wasn't that even the point of Devil Style, which seems to have been completely abandoned?
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Old 2012-09-14, 02:18   Link #10492
CrazyPerson
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You know, I'm pretty sure Nisio just going to have Ajimu "stall" for 15 seconds and then let him pass. Almost want to put money down on this.

It's going to be something like, "I wanted to see how you guys dealt with pressure without me helping." And thus her overpoweredness is preserved while she doesn't straight up win.

A Nisio lampshade on the powerful characters getting weaker over time trope.

Looks like this is going to upset a few people. I can already spot one in the thread.
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Old 2012-09-14, 02:19   Link #10493
Westlo
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Zenkichi got the main focus of the latter half of that arc in a way that even Kumagawa never got in his own.
That's the difference between being a protagonist and an antagonist of an arc.... besides Nisio is choosing to write a novel from Kumagawa perspective, good enough for me since his LN work is much superior to what he does in manga. He aint called the God Of Light Novels for no reason...
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Old 2012-09-14, 02:24   Link #10494
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
You know, I'm pretty sure Nisio just going to have Ajimu "stall" for 15 seconds and then let him pass. Almost want to put money down on this.
I would really love for this to happen, but her expression...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
Looks like this is going to upset a few people. I can already spot one in the thread.
I'm upset because I consider it idiotic, but really, it's just yet another straw on the camel's already overloaded back at this point.
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Old 2012-09-14, 02:27   Link #10495
Ermes Marana
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't think it will be explained, but you're missing the point.
Last week, the narration claimed that Ajimu was all-powerful, and we've seen plenty of evidence of that, and yet, here she is, about to have the shit kicked out of her by something that just popped out of nowhere.

It also said she was fair to the plot twists. So she could probably obliterate him, but it would mess up the story, and she chooses not to.
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Old 2012-09-14, 02:41   Link #10496
orangejuicetang
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Actually, if you think about it, the Shiranui village already showed they could essentially create a clone of Ajimu which is literally exactly equal to her in power and skills in her doppelganger.

It's also the origin of Hanten, Mr. Skill Maker. Maybe that's somehow related?
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Old 2012-09-14, 02:42   Link #10497
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
It also said she was fair to the plot twists. So she could probably obliterate him, but it would mess up the story, and she chooses not to.
I can't be the only person who considers that to be equally as stupid as it being a credible threat to her, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Actually, if you think about it, the Shiranui village already showed they could essentially create a clone of Ajimu which is literally exactly equal to her in power and skills in her doppelganger.
But that was just an illusion.
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Old 2012-09-14, 02:51   Link #10498
orangejuicetang
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Even if it was just an illusion, it seemed like Ajimu wouldn't have been able to beat her own 'doppelganger' on her own.

Another random thought that just popped into my head. I wonder if there is any chance that Ajimu actually already knows this IIhiko person, or like maybe met him in the past. Just a random thought going by her surprised expression when he first appears smashing through the wall, since that might make more sense than her being surprised at a person throwing around Shiranui and Obi?

I dunno, just random thought.

We know Nisio like's word games with his names, does this guy's name mean anything or have any sort of pun?
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Old 2012-09-14, 03:00   Link #10499
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I can't be the only person who considers that to be equally as stupid as it being a credible threat to her, right?

But that was just an illusion.
Ajimu's entire character development is about "involvement". Despite being a transcendental being, all-powerful, all-knowing, capable of doing any impossible task within the Medaka Box universe, she chooses not to "cheat" using those ridiculous abilities and instead experience life/the universe while being an actual part of it. Rather than looking ahead to plot twists, rather than uncaringly discarding the feelings of people around her as fiction/ink on paper, she chooses to restrain herself and participate in them as a witness. Because, as Medaka told her, "Life is epic".

However, the narration explicitly stated that this might've been a mistake/weakness for Ajimu this time, and you can consider the explanation for this being that the present obstacle is on a similar level to the Not Equals (despite not being a Not Equal. Think of it in a duological nature: i.e. the Shiranuis and the Kurokami's--opposing, but different). This Iihiko guy is probably the primary concern who Shiranui Hanten exists to contain/protect the world from/deal with.

The point is, even if you consider Ajimu All-Powerful, it's not like she's using (or capable of using) all of her power at the same time. In particular, it's not like Ajimu has completely developed all of her power as of this time. Ajimu's power is basically to "overcome impossibilities", and the finite number of skills she collected might be on some level simply remnants of that. If Ajimu encounters something "impossible" right now, it's guaranteed that she will eventually be able to do it, but not necessarily at this very moment. The truth is, Ajimu should probably be expected to grow in skills/powers as she encounters new impossibilities; it's just that Ajimu has lived/searched for impossibilities for so long now that she already has overwhelming control over any sort of situation encountered by normal humans.

Remember that Ajimu's weakness (like the rest of the All Jokers, apparently) was that actually she lets her opponents get in the first shot. She purposely allows/makes herself vulnerable, she purposely doesn't prepare herself. In that case, if she suddenly encounters another person on the level of a Not Equal, it's quite obvious she might not be prepared to protect other people. This doesn't mean that Ajimu doesn't have her 'all-powerful' nature in the sense of being able to do whatever she wants, at her leisure, if she needs to; but that she is capable of being caught off guard, and is not always in full-control of the situation (by conscious choice).
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall:
Sora no Method 20/5 :: Karen Senki 8/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Best adorable shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2012-09-14, 03:02   Link #10500
Ermes Marana
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I can't be the only person who considers that to be equally as stupid as it being a credible threat to her, right?

That's what happens when you make an all powerful character. Your choices are

1. Give them a reason not to use their full power (boredom, suicidal, want the fight to be more fun, don't want to take away the victory/experience from someone else, don't want to cheat the story, etc)

2. Make other characters with similar power levels (hey, if there can be one, why not two)
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