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Old 2012-09-14, 13:48   Link #30581
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post

About reversing the tables on Beato and accomplices: Beatrice has a gun, but Krauss has mad boxing skills and enough hot blood to use them if a situation like that arose, so is possible for him to disarm her... but not to point the barrel her way.
I'm not sure if Krauss actually had that mad boxing skills, that's probably an embellishment.
But the point is that he didn't need to confront an armed Beatrice at all. Because beatrice's plan involves herself to play as her normal self in front of Battler, there were like a shitton of chances for any accomplice to ovewpower her without any risk involved throughout the many episodes.


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Basically there's no way Krauss couldn't know. And if Rosa can get there and back, it's possible on foot.
I see only a plausible explanations to that. Genji could have bribed whatever squad Krauss decided to hire. This isn't completely impossible since we know Genji bribed and threatened a lot of people in the past (Kawabata, the family of the dead maid and so on).

That still isn't a perfect plan because any member of the squad could have said "screw it I'm a professional, I'll do my job" to Genji and spill the beans to Krauss. But it isn't entirely impossible that they'd choose the money instead.

The idea that they didn't find a thing, however, is absolutely implausible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
About discovering Kuwadorian, It could be that Eva used her money and influence to shush that. To avoid all those curious and WH traveling ilegally to the island and discovering what they shouldn't. Yes, the gold was blown up but 10 t of heavy metal would scatter, not dissapear. That could account also for the insane profit she made after Rokkenjima's incident, and be a reason for eva to shut completely the island from foreigners claiming that is jus void and half blown and there's nothing interesting anymore.
Even if the police investigated, they couldn't take heavy machines to search for the gold, but some stranger particularly obsessed with a mountain of gold could do it.
That didn't happen. The existence of Kuwadorian became known to everyone in the world after the "accident".
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Old 2012-09-14, 13:55   Link #30582
Patchwork Chimera
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That didn't happen. The existence of Kuwadorian became known to everyone in the world after the "accident".
Didn't know that... Were was it said?

Anyway, the family not knowing about it before the explosion could be Genji's meddling, Kinzo's meddling (before his death) the reluctance of the siblings to go around the island to forbiden places by their father or a weird combination of both.
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Old 2012-09-14, 14:22   Link #30583
GabrieliosP
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Ange (not ANGE) mentioned that Eva's cover story was that she was 'in the hidden mansion Kuwadorian', so yeah, in post-Prime everyone knows about it.
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Old 2012-09-14, 14:26   Link #30584
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That still isn't a perfect plan because any member of the squad could have said "screw it I'm a professional, I'll do my job" to Genji and spill the beans to Krauss. But it isn't entirely impossible that they'd choose the money instead.

The idea that they didn't find a thing, however, is absolutely implausible.
It seems like after the incident they'd probably have divulged that. So if Krauss did have a survey done, the results of that survey should be public knowledge (or at least known to the police).

If the survey doesn't show Kuwadorian, somebody at that company is in serious trouble, because there's no explanation for missing it.
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Old 2012-09-14, 14:28   Link #30585
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Didn't know that... Were was it said?
Kuwadorian is mentioned multiple times from the 1998 perspective in EP4

First Okonogi states that Eva was found inside Kuwadorian by the rescue squad.
Then Ootsuki when he talks about the many books of occultism that Eva sold, explains that they were all retrieved from Kuwadorian.

From EP8 then Yukari already knows about Kuwadorian, even if she shouldn't have talked to Kawabata in that world.

Quote:
"......Eva oba-san avoided the explosion accident by escaping to Kuwadorian. ......How did you escape the accident, onii-cha......nii-san?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It seems like after the incident they'd probably have divulged that. So if Krauss did have a survey done, the results of that survey should be public knowledge (or at least known to the police).

If the survey doesn't show Kuwadorian, somebody at that company is in serious trouble, because there's no explanation for missing it.
I don't think there's any official record of whatever they have found on that island or even that such request was made. Krauss himself probably pressed for it to be kept under wraps.
But let's even suppose (I don't know how) the police came to know that Krauss requested for the island to be explored by them. Who could prove that they didn't honestly tell him everything? Who could prove that they didn't erase any documents about that because Krauss explicitly asked them to do so? Is there any law that forbids that?
All that is required is the contract that proves that they provided the service and that he paid for that.
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Old 2012-09-14, 14:30   Link #30586
GabrieliosP
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"Sorry, but we... uh... researched the island by foot! You can't prove we didn't! Devil's Proof! Yeah!"

Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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Old 2012-09-14, 14:56   Link #30587
Drifloon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall
It seems like after the incident they'd probably have divulged that.
Well, it doesn't really matter whether they divulged it AFTER the incident. Eva had already told everyone about Kuwadorian by then anyway.
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Old 2012-09-14, 15:14   Link #30588
Patchwork Chimera
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Yeah. Still, I wonder if Eva didn't try coming back for the gold. Then I realized that it being illegal would make recover it a real pain in the ass. So maybe in the next no Naku Koro Ni the protagonist will find the gold like that scandal of spanish pirate treasure that was found not long time ago.
Would be pretty stupid, but I like it anyway
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Old 2012-09-14, 16:01   Link #30589
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, it doesn't really matter whether they divulged it AFTER the incident. Eva had already told everyone about Kuwadorian by then anyway.
The point is if they were paid to lie to Krauss, their documentation would show they hadn't found Kuwadorian. Which is a big fat lie and the day after the incident everyone would know it was impossible to have missed the place.

So they'd provably have committed some kind of fraud, and might have arguably been party to the deaths themselves if they knew about a safe location and didn't divulge it to the guy who owned the island.
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Old 2012-09-14, 16:16   Link #30590
Patchwork Chimera
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The point is if they were paid to lie to Krauss, their documentation would show they hadn't found Kuwadorian. Which is a big fat lie and the day after the incident everyone would know it was impossible to have missed the place.

So they'd provably have committed some kind of fraud, and might have arguably been party to the deaths themselves if they knew about a safe location and didn't divulge it to the guy who owned the island.
Krauss is always the victim of fraud, that fool. So it actually wouldn't be strange that he was being robbed, and the search team was expanding the search all they could in order to squeeze more money.

Or maybe they tried to say it to them, but Genji/Kinzo used their magic to make them forget. Nanjo lost his memory of Beatrice Cas. for one bar of gold, after all... And Kinzo didn't really care for the money so he was all from investing his money to block his stupid son that took him for senile. I mean, you'd have to be really crazy to not notice Krauss digging holes in the island and sending search parties for you most cared secret and treasure.
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Old 2012-09-14, 16:37   Link #30591
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Yeah. Still, I wonder if Eva didn't try coming back for the gold. Then I realized that it being illegal would make recover it a real pain in the ass. So maybe in the next no Naku Koro Ni the protagonist will find the gold like that scandal of spanish pirate treasure that was found not long time ago.
Would be pretty stupid, but I like it anyway
If we are to believe EP7 tea party to a certain extent, then the gold is more or less where the bomb is, in other words it would be "lost" in the explosion.

I remember an old discussion with Oliver where he stated that in such an explosion the gold would most likely vaporize into a billion of little fragments.
Still, gold cannot simply vanish, there should be ten tons worth of gold in a huge radius all around the explosion, including the sea floor.

It'd probably be a hassle to recover it all but I think the gain would offset the expenses in the long run.

Even so there was no mention whatsoever of the gold being retrieved or about gold fragments being found.
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Old 2012-09-14, 19:13   Link #30592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Yes, the gold was blown up but 10 t of heavy metal would scatter, not dissapear.
I think that if the gold is as close to the explosive as it seems, the explosion could melt it... and make crumble on it all that was above it (the room of the gold seems to be under the ground) so to recover it... you should probably open a mine.

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
But about the serial killing, if Our Confessions is a general sketch to create the gameboards, Yasu's plans were naive and that's why everything went boom on her face... hum... probably
It's way too naive. Yasu would have better chances at cooperation if she were to suggest them to play an halloween game to please Maria than with trying to bribe people in that way.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There's no reason to trust Beatrice, ever. The only reason anyone goes along with it in the stories is because the author wants them to. The rationale provided is basically as flimsy as possible without being nonexistent.
Definitely the whole blackmail thing is poorly done.

There's plenty of people that go along when blackmailed in the world, but the setting presented is terribly unconvincing.
The Ushiromiya aren't being blackmailed by a criminal gang that's keeping a gun pointed against Jessica's head in some secret hideout while observing every single move they do.

Hell, the blackmailing looks almost like a magic scene in it's implausibility.

A Shannon with a gun in a Beatrice dress doesn't look as an adversary you can't overcome and all they do to avoid the explosive is escape. That's true they might lose the money but they have no proof Shannon really converted the gold in cash.
Actually it's not so easy to do it since among the siblings the only one who could do it was Krauss.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Worse, he claims in Legend or somewhere that he's had the island surveyed. Not only would this assure that the surveying crew found the place, airplanes existed in 1986 and the surveyors would almost certainly have used one. There's nothing anywhere in Banquet which suggests it can't be seen from the air, and the large fence would also stick out like a sore thumb.

Basically there's no way Krauss couldn't know. And if Rosa can get there and back, it's possible on foot.

That discounts for a moment the point that one could just go in that general direction even not knowing if one is going to reach Kuwadorian. If you know there's explosives, you know she can't move them, and if you just run off into the woods you might get lost but you could probably walk to safety (somewhere outside the blast radius) faster than she could stop you.

The entire plan revolves around the accomplices behaving according to the plan when they're not being monitored by Beatrice directly. All they have to do is lie until Beatrice is out of sight, and just grab everybody and book it for the forest.
Exactly. Their obedience to her orders seems to imply they wanted Beato to kill the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
About reversing the tables on Beato and accomplices: Beatrice has a gun, but Krauss has mad boxing skills and enough hot blood to use them if a situation like that arose, so is possible for him to disarm her... but not to point the barrel her way. He'd try to reach a gentleman's deal XD I shudder if she tried to sway Eva with those tactics... and let's not talk about yakuza princess Kyrie.
There was a point about Yasu having a weak body, so is not too farfetched that someone overpowered her and, depending on the sibling in case, blew her head and went with the original plan. So actually Yasu imagining that pointing a gun to the fierce sons or daughters of Kinzo was going to get those results (absolute obedience of an accomplice) was too naive. Maybe that's what ignited the clusterfuck in RokkenPrime? Yasu was dreaming gameboards too hard to realize exactly who she was fucking around with and things went downside... sounds more plausible that the siblings devotedly going along with her just because she had a gun or the promise of some bomb that could be avoided if all ran to the forest with all their might still they reached the other shore (even if they didn't find kuwadorian, they could go to somwhere as far of the main house as Kuwadorian).
That's another of the reasons for which I prefer to think that in Prime Yasu didn't try anything as such. It can work in a (poorly written) fanfic but in the real world, unless people are too dumb, too coward or like the idea of Beato murdering someone, no one would play along. At least not if things went as presented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm not sure if Krauss actually had that mad boxing skills, that's probably an embellishment.
But the point is that he didn't need to confront an armed Beatrice at all. Because beatrice's plan involves herself to play as her normal self in front of Battler, there were like a shitton of chances for any accomplice to ovewpower her without any risk involved throughout the many episodes.
Well, it's probably an embellishment but he likely had some boxing skills. And anyway he's a man and stronger than Yasu. He can overpower her even without mad boxing skills.
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Old 2012-09-14, 19:32   Link #30593
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I restored the originally bolded parts of the text; if you go back it should be a bit easier to read now.

----------------------

About escape into the forest. It is in a typhoon in the dark, which is quite a different situation than when young Rosa went there, so there is that to consider. But even still, it's weird that the idea never even came up (well, I suppose it may have been part of that "omitted" section). The phrase "no options" came up more than once.

----------------------

About Krauss's survey and the Kuwadorian. What reasons do we have to think Krauss didn't learn about it?

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Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
There is no 'ommission' in the original
The person who transcribed probably removed some chunks of text before uploading
I have the book and there is no ommissions
Indeed. Upon investigation that seems to be the case.

The part omitted was about convincing Krauss and Natsuhi of the existence of the bomb. It seems to have mostly covered the shrine's destruction as a test of the explosives, and Genji corroborating the whole story in general.

And the other source I have seems to be missing (at least) one page related to this, too, so I'm stuck on this part.

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Rudolf and Kyrie hold Beatrice hostage in a sealed room. Relatives start dying outside anyway.
Oh hoh hoh! Now that sounds like a true Umineko forgery!
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Old 2012-09-14, 19:41   Link #30594
Patchwork Chimera
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About escape into the forest. It is in a typhoon in the dark, which is quite a different situation than when young Rosa went there, so there is that to consider. But even still, it's weird that the idea never even came up (well, I suppose it may have been part of that "omitted" section). The phrase "no options" came up more than once.
I prefer running in the forest in the middle of a typhon to sit down and wait to being blown away by a giant bomb (Only an infant would believe a mad mass murderer that will off 16+ people that they'll forgive him). But maybe Natsuhi 'refused to believe in such nonsense about grandfather putting explosives under his beloved family', so I don't know what they could be possibly thinking to follow that charade...

Someone said something about not finding the gold. It's actually weird, that they found Maria's jaw but not a single piece of gold. I don't have the slightest, so what happens when gold is exploded? Does it melt, fragment or what? It doesn't evaporate, that's really ridiculous, but...
Now that I think about it, it was foolish of me even thinking about Eva going after the gold. it would be pretty sick. something like 'Search for gold in here! and if you find a piece of my husband or son let me know, k?'
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Old 2012-09-14, 19:59   Link #30595
GabrieliosP
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Considering the force of an explosion powerful enough to erase a chunk of an island... and also the fact that the gold is pretty close to the explosives... I'd say at least part of it melted and then became a giant blob of gold, under another ton of debris, that is.

But it was underground, and the location of the gold room was a secret, so the police probably only investigated the known buildings (the mansion, the chapel, the guesthouse and Kuwadorian).
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Old 2012-09-14, 20:12   Link #30596
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Someone said something about not finding the gold. It's actually weird, that they found Maria's jaw but not a single piece of gold.
We don't know if they didn't find any gold, it's just that there's absolutely no mention of that.

Anyway according to EP4 Eva had a lot of financial problems soon after the accident, and that means that the bank chip with 1 billion yen is most probably a big fat lie.

That however doesn't tell us much about the existence of the gold itself because it's simply possible that she couldn't retrieve it or sell.
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Old 2012-09-14, 20:20   Link #30597
GabrieliosP
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Yeah, but we know for sure that Yasu really sent money to people like Chiyo's son. The 1 billion yen card might be true.

Think about it: your husband's financial situation was bad, and the accident attracted a lot of attention from the media. Would you use the card right away when it would raise suspicion and make the gossip and conspiration theories worse?
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Old 2012-09-14, 22:16   Link #30598
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Well, I don't know, but could it have been possible that some assets may have been frozen for a while during the investigation? Until they were certain that Eva had the rights to it or something like that? But I like Grabrielios' explanation too...
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Old 2012-09-14, 23:50   Link #30599
Jan-Poo
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According to what is said in EP4 the gossip and conspirations didn't really start until the second message in the bottle was found, several years later.
So the only reason for Eva to keep a low profile would be to prevent the police from inquiring.

Still that money was completely irretraceable, I'd think someone like Eva who showed to be a real shark in the finance world would find a way to use that money without drawing direct suspicions on herself.
She wouldn't really be the first magnate who inexplicably got a huge amount of money "out of nowhere" anyway.
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Old 2012-09-15, 02:28   Link #30600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
They could give her like.... a unisex voice, like they did with Lion.
...there was NOTHING unisex about PS3-Lion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Here's the accomplices scene. It was longer than I expected. I'll be busy for the next few days, so the next part, assuming it happens, won't be for a little while.
Like everyone else, thank you so much for your willingness to do this for everyone! Your efforts are greatly appreciated. Also, it was mentioned that you could take the tunnels from the VIP room several times (and Genji mentioned a far simpler entrance than the Chapel contraption when he hands over the keys to Yasu in EP7), but I don't think a locked grate was ever mentioned beforehand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But just because it can't be determined who is the criminal or if there was a criminal to begin with, you don't assume it was an accident.
Yeah, Eva being in the Kuwadorian alone is already suspicious. Kratsuhi and Jessica being in the Kuwadorian alone would require QUITE the story to not arouse suspicion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Rudolf and Kyrie hold Beatrice hostage in a sealed room. Relatives start dying outside anyway.
Ha, that sounds AMAZING, would read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The general impression is they're using Beato's threat to justify themselves into letting the others being killed...
It is somewhat strange.
"Well okay, but we WILL NOT be party to some strange incident."
"No problem them. I just want you to play a part is an elaborate murder mystery scenario as I off your siblings one by one."
"Well I guess there isn't anything too strange about that."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If the survey doesn't show Kuwadorian, somebody at that company is in serious trouble, because there's no explanation for missing it.
Isn't it more likely that Krauss just lied about having the island surveyed because Eva is a git who needs some "shaddup already", sometimes..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
She wouldn't really be the first magnate who inexplicably got a huge amount of money "out of nowhere" anyway.
If we're going to draw that parallel ... now I'm just imagining people making conspiracy theories about how Kinzo MUST have somehow causes the 1923 Kanto Earthquake, for that sweet, sweet Headship.

I also mention that in this scenario, come on, they HAVE to know it's Shannon pointing a gun at them, wearing some obscene ballgown. What I'm REALLY interested in is this whole "Kanon" thing, from their perspective.
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